War on Cops

[iolaire]

Did any of you hear about the black therapist who ran out into the street to try to calm his adult autistic clieny who had had a meltdown and had run out into the road?  Someone called 911, and when he heard the police sirens, he laid on his back on the pavement with his arms up, but a cop shot him anyway.  I had not seen this story on tv because it seems the media is Tromp obsessed, so i heard it from my husband who heard it on the radio.  What words are left to explain away such a thins?

I don't watch TV but I've seen it a few times on my news feeds.  Luckily the guy was not shot to kill and has a wound he will recover from.

[kickingandscreaming]

Yes. This guy did everything right. And got shot in the leg.  When he asked the cop why he shot him, the cop said "I don't know."

Not a satisfactory response in my book.  The real answer was probably more like " because you're a big black scary dude and even though you are unarmed, luying on your back with your hands up, you people are violent."

[Simon Dog]

Yes. This guy did everything right. And got shot in the leg.  When he asked the cop why he shot him, the cop said "I don't know."

I think "I don't know" what a comment he heard one cop say to another.

It's almost certain this cop will dodge criminal charges or, if he is charged, get an outcome that does not burden him with a felony disability for life - a courtesy that would certainly not be extended to a civilian who shot someone on the "I don't know" basis.  This impunity when shooting people is eroding trust in the police.   Just look at the state trooper in MA who dodged "safe storage" charges for a gun left in  his dresses (a conviction under state law would ban him from firearms possession for life) or the state trooper who shot a woman by mistake while hunting (who also dodged criminal prosecution).   The immunity extends well beyond official on-duty acts.

[Charlie B53]

  This impunity when shooting people is eroding trust in the police.   Just look at the state trooper in MA who dodged "safe storage" charges for a gun left in  his dresses (a conviction under state law would ban him from firearms possession for life) or the state trooper who shot a woman by mistake while hunting (who also dodged criminal prosecution).   The immunity extends well beyond official on-duty acts.

Losing trust not only with the Police, but with the legal system itself.  Prosecutors and Judges failing to hold to a higher standard those entrusted to up hold the law.

Off-duty conduct getting a fre pass for offenses that would lock up any normal person is just wrong.  Period.

Prosecutors and Judges involved need to be replaced.  Many are elected positions and the voting public has a responsibility to get off their collective butts and vote.   But far too many do not bother and the 'system' just keeps on it's merry way.

[iolaire]

Prosecutors and Judges failing to hold to a higher standard those entrusted to up hold the law.

Really we just need to hold everyone to the same standard written into law.

[Charlie B53]

Time after time we hear after any Officer shots an un-armed person 'I THOUGHT he had a gun'. 'I FEARED for my life'.   And the Officer once again is not charged with the killing.

ANY civilian making the same claims would be quickly charged and convicted.

Why the huge difference?    Officer training is fire first, ask questions later.   Fire for center of mass, a killing shot.

Without actually SEEING a weapon.

Why are they not taught to shot a leg first, dropping the person onto the ground?   If a weapon becomes apparent then fire center of mass.   Very few persons are capable of firing any 'presumed' weapon while falling to the ground with a leg wound.

But NO, Police are taught to KILL, not to incapacitate.

Elected Prosecutors are the initial level of the problem.    Even many cases where the Officer is rarely charged with a crime the Prosecutors presentation is often so skewed they jury fails to convict.    Vote those Prosecutors out of office and get someone in that will seriously do the job.

[kickingandscreaming]

Why are they not taught to shot a leg first, dropping the person onto the ground?

Wrong question. Why are they not taught to try to de-escalate the situation before reaching for deadly force?  Cops in other countries, e.g. Finland, don't even carry weapons.  I recall a fairly recent story of some off-duty Swedish police visiting NYC and intervening in a volatile situation and defusing the heat and tension and de-escalating the mess.  Our cops shoot and then think--if they ever evan bother to do the latter.

[MooseMom]

I agree that it would be better if our police trainees were taught conflict de-escalation, but this is not Finland.  No, it is the USA where folks can be armed and wander about with weapons.  No wonder the cops are so quick to shoot.  They can't read your mind or know if you have a gun hidden away somewhere.

One thing leads to another.  When the Supreme Court interpreted the Second Amendment to mean that anyone can pretty much buy a gun anywhere at any time without being a part of a well regulated militia, the consequences are clear.  The police have to assume that any one they stop may be armed and that a toy truck is probably really a gun. 

[kickingandscreaming]

We are a nation of paranoid cowards-- the cops and the populace who tote guns for reasons other than hunting (which I also don't like) or living among wild animals.  The lust for gunpower reflects a very distorted and  cowardly core.  It also shows a projection of our inner shadow (containing all the parts of ourselves that we'd rather deny and project onto others).  If you see evil outside that you need to "protect" yourself from with a gun, it's time to look in the mirror.

Violence begets violence.  Carrying around a weapon is an invitation to be visited by violence.  And not just by cops.

[kickingandscreaming]

Now this: http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/local/violent-arrest-of-teacher-caught-on-video-officers/nr3W6/   Video

Officials are investigating an Austin police officer’s violent arrest of an African-American elementary school teacher who was twice thrown to the ground during a traffic stop for speeding and comments by a second officer who told her police are sometimes wary of blacks because of their “violent tendencies.”

[Rerun]

That is so stupid.  Honest to God!  Look at France.  That guy used a panel TRUCK.  If we take away guns they will use knives, if we take away knives they will use forks.  Get a grip!

It would be nice to be a love child hippy but then reality strikes.  I'd like to live next to you and put a sign in my yard "I have a gun but my neighbor doesn't....   Guess who would get robbed?

Do you you eat meat?  Well you shouldn't if you don't like animals killed.  I really don't like it either but I'm of sound enough mind that I do know if I want a Hamburger a steer has to die.  That is reality.  You guys are not in touch with reality.

Why is it when a cop is called out and takes control and makes a mistake it is HIS/HER fault?  Where is your peace loving society that the cop is even called in the first place.

A crazy guy runs into the street and sits down and refuses to move and yells to his caregiver SHUT-UP!  Too bad the wrong guy got shot!  Too bad we don't have palces to put those people who need mental help. 

[Michael Murphy]

The sad part is the. Lawyer for the cop hinted he was trying to hit the autistic man and missed. Stupid and a bad shot a bad combination.

[Simon Dog]

Too bad the wrong guy got shot!

Wrong guy?    From what I have read this was a situation in which nobody should have got shot.

We have reached the point in society where not following the order of a cop, even if you are not posing a threat, calls for lethal force.  This is problematic for the disabled who physically cannot comply; the deaf who cannot hear the police orders and the autistic who lack the mental capacity to understand the commands.

There is a chance the leg hit on the good guy was a result of a ricochet - rounds hitting a hard surface tend do not bounce back and an angle equal to the angle of incidence, but rather skim along the surface of the pavement.

[kickingandscreaming]

There is a chance the leg hit on the good guy was a result of a ricochet - rounds hitting a hard surface tend do not bounce back and an angle equal to the angle of incidence, but rather skim along the surface of the pavement.

Yes, but there shouldn't have been a shot in the first place. Cops seem to have no ability to discern innocence from guilt, and seem to have only one response to practically everything. Shoot.

[Simon Dog]

Yes, but there shouldn't have been a shot in the first place. Cops seem to have no ability to discern innocence from guilt, and seem to have only one response to practically everything. Shoot.

It is directly because of lack of accountability.  Cops do not face the profound expense and risk to both career and liberty that civilians who shoot do.

What is even worse is the near impunity with which cops can shoot dogs.

[Rerun]

So I'm hearing you all want cops to be babysitters.  Show up and "de-escalate" "talk down" "calm down".  Just like the classrooms, babysit and move on. 

Another Terrorist attack in Germany.  Just try and talk them down.  It's okay.  They are just having a poopy day.


  

[kickingandscreaming]

So I'm hearing you all want cops to be babysitters

As usual, you misinterpret in the wildest and most global way.  I want cops to "protect and serve" as they are mandated to.  Hair trigger shooting and racial profiling with no accountability is not my definition of "Protect and Serve."

[willowtreewren]

So I'm hearing you all want cops to be babysitters

As usual, you misinterpret in the wildest and most global way.  I want cops to "protect and serve" as they are mandated to.  Hair trigger shooting and racial profiling with no accountability is not my definition of "Protect and Serve."

Thank you.

And to another point, yes, in Nice the person used a truck to kill, but just imagine if it had been a truck with the driver ALSO shooting! And yes, those who wish to do harm can use a knife, but how many of the Sandy Hook children and teachers would still be alive if a knife had been used? Your arguments are simply not well supported, but just regurgitating the indoctrination of those who want our society to be heavily armed.

Aleta

[Rerun]

I wonder who the policemen and women will vote for?

              

My nephew just turned 40 and is a Motorcycle State Trooper.  There were about 30 WSP's at his party. Oh, and his girlfriend is a County Sheriff.

They are all voting for Trump.  He has their backs.    Just say'in.              

[Rerun]

How many Sandy Hook little first graders would have been killed had the teachers and the staff been armed?

There is a reason they call schools and malls "soft targets".  Look it up....

Protect and serve?  They are human not fricken' Robots.  Get your fat ass out there and protect and serve instead of criticize.

[Charlie B53]

I have a problem with the Police attitude of authority, thinking they can 'Command' me to do anything.   BS.   I am NOT a criminal.   Treat me like a person and I will respond like a person.   Try to treat me like a criminal and I WILL tell you exactly what the law reads and how I WILL use it in Court to OWN a large portion of public money.  Making it very likely that you will NOT be employed very long.

The Law allows an Officer to ask questions.  It does NOT allow physical abuse such as throwing a person to the ground without 'Probable Cause'.    Though the Courts do stretch the interpetation of PC there must be some evidence of 'reasonable suspicion' before the Officer can even begin any contact.   Failing some of these simple tests the Officer is out of line and subject to Court action.   Now here rises the problem, Prosecutors refuse to charge Officers with their crimes.   So the only recourse we have is to gather our own 'evidence' most often in the form of video recording, and file civl suit for civil rights violations.   Sue the individual Officer AND the Force, AND the City, County, State.   When the Court attempts to excuse the individual OPfficer from the suit, object as if not for that individual there would be no suit.

Holding the individual responsible for their actions is the only way to begin to make these errant officers responsible.   There really isn't that many bad Cops.  They would soon catch on and seek other employment knowing their time is limited before some soul bankrupts them for their actions.

[willowtreewren]

How many Sandy Hook little first graders would have been killed had the teachers and the staff been armed?

There is a reason they call schools and malls "soft targets".  Look it up....

Protect and serve?  They are human not fricken' Robots.  Get your fat ass out there and protect and serve instead of criticize.

Rerun, I find it confusing and somewhat upsetting that you, as a moderator on this site have such an uncanny ability to be verbally abusive to others. As a retired teacher I would NEVER ever advocate for teachers to be armed, especially at the elementary or early childhood level.

I think a good analogy for this whole "everyone needs to be armed" stance is one from the school playground. If a kid has a rock and throws it at another kid injuring him, what is the logical response? It certainly isn't to give all the kids rocks. Nor is it to teach all the kids how to manage rocks. The logical response is to take THAT child at hand, remove any additional rocks from his possession and teach that violence is not acceptable. Arming all the kids because of one who acted outside the rules will not solve the problem.

Going back to the thrust of this thread, as Charlie B53 said,

Holding the individual responsible for their actions is the only way to begin to make these errant officers responsible.   There really isn't that many bad Cops.  They would soon catch on and seek other employment knowing their time is limited before some soul bankrupts them for their actions.

There needs to be better policing of behavior within the law enforcement ranks. The bad apples need to be removed. There needs to be better training and less militarization of our police forces. That would go a long way to restore trust.

Aleta

[Rerun]

I'm not a moderator...  AND it says Thick Skin for this section.  If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

We are not talking kids with guns.  We are talking responsible adults that pass the screening.  Talk about me jumping WAY out there.  Sheesh.

There are bad apples in every job.  Look at congress.

[willowtreewren]

I'm not a moderator...  AND it says Thick Skin for this section.  If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

We are not talking kids with guns.  We are talking responsible adults that pass the screening.  Talk about me jumping WAY out there.  Sheesh.

There are bad apples in every job.  Look at congress.

''

Pardon me. I should have said Administrator/Owner as your profile states. And yes, it does say that thick skin is required. I take that to mean that if one isn't prepared to argue the issue one should steer clear of the thread. I never took it to mean that participants had free reign to be insulting to other participants.

I maintain that putting guns into the hands of teachers is NOT a solution. Like you say, there are bad apples in every job and that includes teachers. Teachers are already overloaded with responsibility and underpaid for what they do. This would add to the responsibility, add to the number of training hours they would need, and detract from their attention to the real job they should be doing. Recipe for disaster.

Furthermore, I maintain that some (if not many) police officers aren't sufficiently trained to know when and where to use their firearms and that IS part of their jobs. If they can't get adequate training, how in the world do you propose that teachers can get adequate training when it is not, or should not be, part of their job description.

Arming everyone is simply NOT the answer.

I welcome thoughtful responses. responses like this add nothing to the argument and are off topic for the thread:

I wonder who the policemen and women will vote for?

             

My nephew just turned 40 and is a Motorcycle State Trooper.  There were about 30 WSP's at his party. Oh, and his girlfriend is a County Sheriff.

They are all voting for Trump.  He has their backs.    Just say'in.              

Aleta

[Michael Murphy]

What screening the current Republican Congress won't even stop people on the Terrorist watch list from buying guns.  When the second admendment was written state of art of fire arms was a single shot mussel loader. It would average a shot a minute. Plenty of time to run between shots. Noe you can buy a weapon that sprays bullets.  This is insanity.