Obamacare’s architects really do think we're stupid

[Simon Dog]

If this man wants to let it go at 75, so be it, but what right does he have to make those choices for everyone else?

Bingo!!!

Those of us user 75 can guess, however, one doesn't really know if they will want to go until getting there.

I upset the transplant clinic by telling them I decided to quit dialysis.   When they asked for details, I told them "sometime after age 85, but I haven't figured out the exact date yet" and they became somewhat less concerned.

[Michael Murphy]

For those who believe this dribble please go to factcheck.org and search for Dr. Emanuel .  This line of bunk originated from the ex lieut. Gov. Of NY and was picked up by Michelle Bachman and Sarah Palin.  None of which have been known as being able to find there massive butts with one hand on the best day they ever had.  Just because something is repeated over and over does not make it true.

[MooseMom]

I found very few patients who just wanted to let it go at the age of 75. In fact, I have met enough 90 and 100 year old folks still active, bright and enjoying life that I must question which planet Emanuel comes from.

I will quite gladly ignore his comments, however the problem is he is setting health care policies that will have an impact on those over 75. That is where the outrage lies. If this man wants to let it go at 75, so be it, but what right does he have to make those choices for everyone else?

He doesn't have any right at all to make those choices for anyone else.  In which way is he setting health care policies that will have an impact on those over 75? 

[noahvale]

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[Michael Murphy]

There is no doubt that Emanual wrote a paper suggesting the use of age in determining the allocation of scarce medical treatments such as kidney transplants.  That is a rather large jump from there to no care after 75.  Western survival traditions have always been women and children first.  Taking.that principle to the transplant arena is just a logical method for allocating scarce organs.  However in no way shape or form does that translate into death panels.  Accusing a man who has always advocated for patients rights of supporting this kind of final solution is a disgrace.  In not to far past hospitals ran panels to decide who went on dialysis and who would die.  It is people like Dr. Emanuel who helped push for the expanded dialysis facilities that keep a half million Americans alive today.

[Hemodoc]

For those who believe this dribble please go to factcheck.org and search for Dr. Emanuel .  This line of bunk originated from the ex lieut. Gov. Of NY and was picked up by Michelle Bachman and Sarah Palin.  None of which have been known as being able to find there massive butts with one hand on the best day they ever had.  Just because something is repeated over and over does not make it true.

Sorry, I am referring not to any alleged euthanasia issues my friend, but of denying care. Two separate issues so just go ahead and retract your statement that does not apply whatsoever to my comment about Ezekiel. There are many policy changes Obama has enacted in part by Zeke's recommendations. As a physician myself, I am in complete disagreement with his philosophies. I have not in any manner referred to euthanasia.

[MooseMom]

Hemodoc, which of Obama's policies as set out in the ACA would result in the denial of care for people over 75?  If a physician had to deny care because of said policies, does that physician have any recourse?  It's hard to imagine that a physician would deny his patient care just because of "policy".

[Simon Dog]

He doesn't have any right at all to make those choices for anyone else.  In which way is he setting health care policies that will have an impact on those over 75?

Choices are being made for others when the government says "Yes, we will force person A to pay for person B's treatment".   It's not so much an issue of denying someone the ability to purchase whatever treatment (s)he can afford, but one of denying the person in need of treatment a transfer payment to cover the cost.

The issue is not "withholding treatment" by "withholding funds" (which have pretty much the same effect), except in cases of rare supply, and a governmental prohibition on market based solutions (ie, transplants)

[MooseMom]

Choices are being made for others when the government says "Yes, we will force person A to pay for person B's treatment".   It's not so much an issue of denying someone the ability to purchase whatever treatment (s)he can afford, but one of denying the person in need of treatment a transfer payment to cover the cost.

The issue is not "withholding treatment" by "withholding funds" (which have pretty much the same effect), except in cases of rare supply, and a governmental prohibition on market based solutions (ie, transplants)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by "denying the person in need of treatment a transfer payment to cover the cost."  What is a "transfer payment"?

If the issue is not "withholding treatment" by "withholding funds", then what IS the issue?  I'll ask again; which policies are promoted in the ACA that deny care for people over 75?  Truly, I am not trying to be confrontational.  I am trying to understand and would appreciate more specifics and fewer sweeping statements.  Thanks!

[noahvale]

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[MooseMom]

Interesting article with which I happen to agree.  Thanks for posting the link.

[noahvale]

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[MooseMom]

Well then, how do you account for his advocacy for including annual exams as a component of Obamacare, especially when the info he quoted in the op-ed was readily avaiable at that time?

People should be responsible for how they use healthcare.  They should be free to decide for themselves whether or not they would benefit from an exam.  Someone who is 40 years old and who has never had/does not have any medical issues should be free to decide not to have an exam.  People who are getting older and who feel anxiety about their state of health or who have a chronic condition should be able to have an annual exam if they so choose.

Whether or not an annual exam is of benefit to everyone has been a subject for debate for a long time.  We are STILL being given ever-changing advice on whether or not to have annual pap smears and mammograms.  At this point in time, the general consensus is that the benefit of annual paps/mammograms depend upon a woman's individual risk factors.  Men and woman of all ages are surely smart enough to make their own decisions.  It appears that Dr. Emanuel has made his own decision based upon his own assessment of his own health status, and you are surely free to do the same.  I see nothing in any of his articles whose links you have posted that prevents you from doing as you see fit for yourself.

[Simon Dog]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by "denying the person in need of treatment a transfer payment to cover the cost."  What is a "transfer payment"

A transfer payment is when wealth is transferred from Party A to Party B, even though Party B has not rendered any goods or service to Party A.   

[MooseMom]

A transfer payment is when wealth is transferred from Party A to Party B, even though Party B has not rendered any goods or service to Party A.

OK, thanks for that.  But isn't this what insurance does, anyway?  Many people paid for my transplant and all that goes with it even though I have not rendered to them any goods or services. 

[Simon Dog]

A transfer payment is when wealth is transferred from Party A to Party B, even though Party B has not rendered any goods or service to Party A.

OK, thanks for that.  But isn't this what insurance does, anyway?  Many people paid for my transplant and all that goes with it even though I have not rendered to them any goods or services.

There is a nice writeup on transfer payments at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_payment.     Insurance is a different matter, since one contracts for the service.   Govt run insurance programs that operate on a political, rather than actuarial, basis have both elements of insurance and transfer payments.   That is not to say that all transfer payments are bad; I am simply recognizing them for what they are.

If you bought insurance, you supplied goods (i.e., cash) in return for a service (assumption of risk).  But, with the constraints of the affordable care act, even private sector insurance has an element of transfer payment (for example, by requiring insurance companies sell policies to ESRD patients on the organ list)

A private sector example is the games colleges play with who pays full price and who gets a deal.

[Bill Peckham]

@noahvale why have you gone through and deleted the content of many of your posts? (Not just in this thread but may other threads as well)


If Epoman were still here you'd of been banned by now