First Amendment Under Attack

[MooseMom]

I've got a stonking great headache and am going to bed, so let me just sum up my beliefs on this subject so that there is no misunderstanding.  I'm going to try to be as clear as possible.

I believe that private business should be able to conduct their enterprise as they see fit.  Since they do not set public policy, if they want to pick and choose to whom they will sell their products, they should be free to do so.  Most business won't serve you if you are not wearing a shirt and shoes.

If potential customers believe that these businesses are unfairly discriminating, then they have the right to peaceful protest and the right to not only take their business elsewhere but also to convince others to do the same.

Goodnight!

[willowtreewren]

It is obvious that you did not read the report if you have to ask where the evidence is that they targeted the gay couple.

[Hemodoc]

It is obvious that you did not read the report if you have to ask where the evidence is that they targeted the gay couple.

Sorry, it is likely the other way around. This is not the first case of Christian bakers declining to participate in a gay marriage. Target implies that the baker went after the gay couple. Read the report, they stated they have nothing against homosexuals, they simply do not want to participate in what they consider a sin. That is not targeting whatsoever. But the protests and accusations against these folks is a targeted effort for sure.

[MooseMom]

Hemodoc, did you ever find out whether or not the military prohibits active duty soldiers from wearing their uniforms to church?

Also, have you yourself ever had your right to religious freedom infringed upon?  If so, what happened?  Did you file a complaint?

[rocker]

Hemodoc, did you ever find out whether or not the military prohibits active duty soldiers from wearing their uniforms to church?

Also, have you yourself ever had your right to religious freedom infringed upon?  If so, what happened?  Did you file a complaint?

He already told us, MM.  Allowing a guy on Death Row to grow a beard destroys his religious freedom.

Also, that they wouldn't allow him to homeschool if he lived in Germany.

[Hemodoc]

Hemodoc, did you ever find out whether or not the military prohibits active duty soldiers from wearing their uniforms to church?

Also, have you yourself ever had your right to religious freedom infringed upon?  If so, what happened?  Did you file a complaint?

1) Maj Scott Smiley's testimony is not in question by me. He stated it was by memorandum which is a frequent way general orders are published.

2) Yes, I have as a matter of fact, but the Lord squared the issues away.

[Hemodoc]

San Antonio churches fear a backlash from the new "anti-discrimination" bill proposed.

A coalition of some 500 ministers organized to defeat the proposal including a number of African-American and Hispanic pastors. Steve Branson, the pastor of Village Parkway Baptist Church, said his 1,500-member congregation is frightened about the future.
“Some of us will pay a price,” Branson told Fox News. “There will be somebody going after our Christian business people. They will try to make a few people examples.”
He said the idea that Christians could be penalized for opposing gay marriage could prompt a backlash.
“The city of San Antonio will react strongly,” he predicted. “There will be recalls. This law is going to be very punitive towards believers – especially businessmen and it will have some effect on churches.”

 http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/critics-say-non-discrimination-law-would-target-christians.html

[MooseMom]

Did you read this article closely?  There's a lot of might happens and could happens and we believes and such.  Nothing definitive in this article at all.  And did you see that this proposal is supposed to protect veterans, too?  Just because someone yells that it's an "attack on religious freedom" doesn't mean that it is.

What is sinful about being transgender?  What does the Bible say about gender identity?

BTW, this is just a proposal, so people have the chance to have their say and even have it amended before it goes to a vote.

What worries me is that the author of this article is the author of "Dispatches from Bitter America".  I think that pretty much says it all.  Bitter and twisted and trolling for reasons to find persecution everywhere.

[Hemodoc]

Did you read this article closely?  There's a lot of might happens and could happens and we believes and such.  Nothing definitive in this article at all.  And did you see that this proposal is supposed to protect veterans, too?  Just because someone yells that it's an "attack on religious freedom" doesn't mean that it is.

What is sinful about being transgender?  What does the Bible say about gender identity?

BTW, this is just a proposal, so people have the chance to have their say and even have it amended before it goes to a vote.

What worries me is that the author of this article is the author of "Dispatches from Bitter America".  I think that pretty much says it all.  Bitter and twisted and trolling for reasons to find persecution everywhere.

1) Dispatches from Bitter America is a reference to what Obama called them, bitter and clinging to guns and religion. Not sure why you don't understand the satire of his comment, but oh well, here is the explanation Moosemom  IT IS SATIRE based on what Obama said about conservative, religious people!!  How soon you forget.

"And it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations," Obama said.

2) Not trolling, simply commenting AND reporting on an ongoing news story. Your view is the only one that appears to be twisted.

3) Yes, I did read it. It is a proposed bill before the city council of San Antonio with some very serious potential consequences. Go look at my first post on this and I made it clear, it is a proposal. So, what is your beef Moosemom?

I have already shown how similar laws in Europe and Canada have resulted in Christian pastors fined or locked up for simply preaching the Word of God. It remains a very significant issue despite the fact you don't seem to grasp that reality. Mockery does not become you at all Moosemom.

4) Gender Identity: Glad to discuss this with you. But please start a new thread since this is not an issue of first amendment rights being infringed. Thank you

[MooseMom]

Ah, OK, thanks for explaining the satire.  Yes, I had forgotten about Obama's comment, which was unfortunate but unfortunately true in the case of those who DO cling to guns and religion when their bitterness gets the better of them.  I'm so sick of people who constantly whine about some perceived slight and couch their grievances in terms of "freedom of religion", like God gives them a pass for their hatred.

No, sorry, this is just not a significant issue for me.  Since it is for you, I trust that you will spend your energy in supporting those who share your religious beliefs in refusing to bake cakes for gays.  Good luck to you.

[Hemodoc]

Ah, OK, thanks for explaining the satire.  Yes, I had forgotten about Obama's comment, which was unfortunate but unfortunately true in the case of those who DO cling to guns and religion when their bitterness gets the better of them.  I'm so sick of people who constantly whine about some perceived slight and couch their grievances in terms of "freedom of religion", like God gives them a pass for their hatred.

No, sorry, this is just not a significant issue for me.  Since it is for you, I trust that you will spend your energy in supporting those who share your religious beliefs in refusing to bake cakes for gays.  Good luck to you.

Once again, mockery does not become you Moosemom. These are legitimate issues and concerns. But in point of fact, we have known this was coming for quite some time. Sadly, it is God that is mocked, not me in all of this. You will have a chance to stand before Him some day. I pray you learn who He really is before that day.

It is further quite sad to see you agreeing with Obama on "bitter" Americans who cling to their guns and religion. That is a very sad statement for a presidential candidate who has now been elected twice since it describes a large majority of people in the US. But it does so in a mocking manner not understanding the joy that God grants His children. Keeping the right to believe as you wish is one of the basic requisites of freedom. Sadly, that is what is most threatened. Obama does not understand what made America a great nation as his actions have proven over and over again. In the end, he is the one that appears bitter against those that have a love of the God of the Bible and enjoy God given freedom.

[MooseMom]

I apologize for the mocking comment about baking cakes, or not, for gays, but you know I am not mocking you and your beliefs.  I understand how important this issue is for you, and I am really sorry that you feel attacked.  I know that you feel that God's Word can be heard in only one way, but I hope that you would not judge others, who may not share your beliefs, as "mocking God". 

You seem bitter, Hemodoc, and you cling to your guns and to your religion.  Having a gun is not illegal nor "wrong", and having deep religious beliefs is a protected freedom, and, more importantly, a source of comfort and guidance.  But when you add bitterness and hatred into the mix, then yes, you can get a certain kind of person who lets fear and bitterness twist their hearts.  I don't recall the last time I saw a kind word from you directed to any of the many IHD members who are sick and frightened.  You know I've always admired your advocacy and your service to this nation, and with your strong religious beliefs, it seems to me that you could be of such comfort to this site's many new members.  I see from you nothing of the joy that God grants His children.  It is with a sense of horror that I have come to wonder if you are indeed one of those very people of which the President spoke.  But I'm just repeating myself, so now I will back out of this discussion altogether.  I have a chicken to bake (don't like cake, so I don't bake them).

Have a good evening, Hemodoc.  Pick up your socks.  If you don't, no amount of pray will save you.  LOL!

[Hemodoc]

I apologize for the mocking comment about baking cakes, or not, for gays, but you know I am not mocking you and your beliefs.  I understand how important this issue is for you, and I am really sorry that you feel attacked.  I know that you feel that God's Word can be heard in only one way, but I hope that you would not judge others, who may not share your beliefs, as "mocking God". 

You seem bitter, Hemodoc, and you cling to your guns and to your religion.  Having a gun is not illegal nor "wrong", and having deep religious beliefs is a protected freedom, and, more importantly, a source of comfort and guidance.  But when you add bitterness and hatred into the mix, then yes, you can get a certain kind of person who lets fear and bitterness twist their hearts.  I don't recall the last time I saw a kind word from you directed to any of the many IHD members who are sick and frightened.  You know I've always admired your advocacy and your service to this nation, and with your strong religious beliefs, it seems to me that you could be of such comfort to this site's many new members.  I see from you nothing of the joy that God grants His children.  It is with a sense of horror that I have come to wonder if you are indeed one of those very people of which the President spoke.  But I'm just repeating myself, so now I will back out of this discussion altogether.  I have a chicken to bake (don't like cake, so I don't bake them).

Have a good evening, Hemodoc.  Pick up your socks.  If you don't, no amount of pray will save you.  LOL!

Dear Moosemom,

I don't accept your diagnosis of being bitter. On the contrary, I enjoy my granddaughter more than you can believe and in many ways the last few years have been the best of my life.

If you interpret my sharp tongue against people who have expressed very "bitter" comments against me and my views, so be it. If you have not noticed, IHD is not at all a right wing conservative site so venturing into political discussions as a "right wing conservative" is always an interesting venture to say the least. And where do you get "hatred?" sorry, venturing conservative viewpoints is just that. Yes, I do have my advocacy on my own website and that is where I choose to do so at the time being. And in addition, you are quite wrong, I have commented in the last couple of weeks quite a bit, so once again, you are quite wrong.

In addition, I get PMs from folks all the time that you never see obviously. So, let's keep to the political issues at hand if you don't mind, thank you.

As far as this president, I have nothing but the greatest disdain for a man who has sought such havoc against the freedoms we enjoy that will have a lasting impact on my own grandkid. In any case, IHD is a very left wing site and many folks have spoken with quite sharp comments which is not a big deal but don't go reading too much into this limited site of discussion. It is not a right wing conservative friendly site at all. So be it.

[MooseMom]

You are right that this is not, in general, a right wing conservative friendly site, which is why I am always happy to see you posting.  I'm glad you take the time and make the effort to offer opposing points of view, and I thank you for that.

I admit to often being concerned about your "bitterness", so I am particularly glad to hear that my "diagnosis" is incorrect.  You know I love ya and want nothing but the best for you.  I guess I just need the occasional reminder that you ARE happy.  But since you wish to keep to the political issues at hand, I will no longer try to address you in a slightly more personal manner, which is kind of a shame.  But I respect your privacy.

Good luck to you, and give your granddaughter a special giant hug the next time you see her!  Bye!

[willowtreewren]

Here is a blind vet still in the Army, the only officer who is on active duty who is blind who is told he can't wear a uniform to church or political meetings, yet gay servicemen are allowed to wear a uniform in gay rights parades.

In the interest of going back to the original point of this thread, the restriction on wearing his uniform was NOT for attending church, but for speaking in church.

Just as gay soldiers could not SPEAK at rallies or parades, but are allowed to wear their uniforms at these public events, even while participating.

Please don't find boogey men while there aren't any. This is like saying that you are not allowed to drive a car, while leaving out "while intoxicated."

[Hemodoc]

Gay rights Trump Religious beliefs in a NM Supreme court decision that will force businesses to serve gay marriages even if they oppose it on religious grounds. Just as we have seen in Europe and Canada, gay rights is the "antidote" to Christianity's morals. This ruling will have a chilling effect on Christian businesses in NM that will have to choose between the truth of the Bible and the modern uniform imposition of "tolerance." What ever happened to being able to choose based on your conscience? I guess that is not allowed in this new "tolerant" America, that is unless you are a Christian. Just who is imposing their views on who?

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/nm-court-says-christian-photographers-must-compromise-beliefs.html

[Simon Dog]

What is the logical difference between opposing gay marriage and opposing interracial marriage?

Would those of you saying everyone should be able to do business with only those people who match their values be as supportive of a pastor refusing to marrying a salt and pepper couple?

[willowtreewren]

Gay rights Trump Religious beliefs in a NM Supreme court decision that will force businesses to serve gay marriages even if they oppose it on religious grounds. Just as we have seen in Europe and Canada, gay rights is the "antidote" to Christianity's morals. This ruling will have a chilling effect on Christian businesses in NM that will have to choose between the truth of the Bible and the modern uniform imposition of "tolerance." What ever happened to being able to choose based on your conscience? I guess that is not allowed in this new "tolerant" America, that is unless you are a Christian. Just who is imposing their views on who?

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/nm-court-says-christian-photographers-must-compromise-beliefs.html

I would say that HUMAN rights trump religious belief. And that would include ANY religious belief. When you cherry pick the Bible (or the Koran, or the Rig-veda, or whatever religious sacred text you prefer) to select the values that you want from it, and then claim that your religious rights are being trampled, it seems a bit insincere. Civilization has fortunately moved us out of the mind set of thousands of years ago.

Who gets to decide which of the many contradictory passages from the texts are to be followed? What makes one interpretation better than another. And if a supernatural being couldn't get the texts written in a way that anyone could simply understand through the ages without interpretation, that doesn't speak well for the "intelligence" of the author.

[Hemodoc]

Gay rights Trump Religious beliefs in a NM Supreme court decision that will force businesses to serve gay marriages even if they oppose it on religious grounds. Just as we have seen in Europe and Canada, gay rights is the "antidote" to Christianity's morals. This ruling will have a chilling effect on Christian businesses in NM that will have to choose between the truth of the Bible and the modern uniform imposition of "tolerance." What ever happened to being able to choose based on your conscience? I guess that is not allowed in this new "tolerant" America, that is unless you are a Christian. Just who is imposing their views on who?

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/nm-court-says-christian-photographers-must-compromise-beliefs.html

I would say that HUMAN rights trump religious belief. And that would include ANY religious belief. When you cherry pick the Bible (or the Koran, or the Rig-veda, or whatever religious sacred text you prefer) to select the values that you want from it, and then claim that your religious rights are being trampled, it seems a bit insincere. Civilization has fortunately moved us out of the mind set of thousands of years ago.

Who gets to decide which of the many contradictory passages from the texts are to be followed? What makes one interpretation better than another. And if a supernatural being couldn't get the texts written in a way that anyone could simply understand through the ages without interpretation, that doesn't speak well for the "intelligence" of the author.

Great, questioning God's intelligence now. Well, that is what the Bible said would happen, here it is.

The problem is you so easily dismiss that God is real. He is. I hope you find out that truth here in this reality.

As far as "Human rights," well, one of the longstanding "human rights" has always been for the last 400 years in this nation, religious freedom. So sad to see how easily folks dismiss that essential human right bestowed upon us by our Creator as our founding documents state.

In any case, who stated I "cherry pick" the Bible? that is not true at all. I believe the Bible is the true, literal word of God. I believe that God created us. I believe that God defined marriage as between a man and a woman and any illicit sexual activities outside of that institution is a sin. The Bible is very clear on all of these issues and that is NOT a matter of interpretation as you state incorrectly. God's word is plain and clear. He is not at fault if folks do not understand His written word.

But indeed, the last election did tell us a lot. The interesting aspect is that we no longer are a center right nation. These so called "human rights" here in the US in the last few years have already been in place for quite some time in Canada and Europe where they have prosecuted pastors and other Christians for keeping to their beliefs. It is coming to the US and probably won't be long before every state, town and county goes the same way. Then, who is imposing their beliefs on who?

[Hemodoc]

What is the logical difference between opposing gay marriage and opposing interracial marriage?

Would those of you saying everyone should be able to do business with only those people who match their values be as supportive of a pastor refusing to marrying a salt and pepper couple?

You are asking me that question? Well, let me ask my brown skinned wife what she thinks on that issue. Yes, I am in an "interracial marriage" as you say. The Bible states that we are all of one blood. Sorry, false question, the Bible does NOT teach that we cannot marry anyone we wish. Sorry, you are quite mistaken on that false analogy.

[Jean]

Hemodoc, I admire you very much for all of your statements. However, I do wish you would stop calling every one " my friend", as they clearly are not. The Bible however does state, very clearly, that " never the tribes should mix". That is why I oppose mixed marriages. Not for the adults, but for the children. I do not mean to offend you, but, so far, we re allowed to have our own beliefs. And if any body calls me a hater because of this statement, I will not be a happy person.

[justme15]

jean-just curious, what was the context of the 'never should tribes mix' statement? was this in the old testament?
also, what problems do you feel mixed children would have?  do you know any 'mixed' couples?

[Hemodoc]

Hemodoc, I admire you very much for all of your statements. However, I do wish you would stop calling every one " my friend", as they clearly are not. The Bible however does state, very clearly, that " never the tribes should mix". That is why I oppose mixed marriages. Not for the adults, but for the children. I do not mean to offend you, but, so far, we re allowed to have our own beliefs. And if any body calls me a hater because of this statement, I will not be a happy person.

The laws you are referencing for the children of Israel were to preserve the lands given to them by God. The Jewish tribes were not mix not because of race, but because of inheritance of the land. It had nothing to do with the races. Have you not read the following:

Numbers 12: AND Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

If you read the rest of the chapter, God sent leprosy to Miriam after stating this. It was the prayer of Moses that removed that disease. So if folks wish to believe that God is against this so called "interracial" marriage thing, then why did God punish Miriam and Aaron and elevate Moses.  BTW, the last time I checked, the women of Ethiopia were black and Moses was a Jew. Read the story. God DID NOT condemn Moses, it was those making a false accusation against him in part for marrying a black woman that were punished by God Himself. Anyone that wishes to believe that the Bible condemns "interracial" marriage does not understand the Bible on this issue.

Sorry, no offense, but there is no condemnation from God for marrying a person of another so called "race." That is simply an error of understanding.

[Hemodoc]

jean-just curious, what was the context of the 'never should tribes mix' statement? was this in the old testament?
also, what problems do you feel mixed children would have?  do you know any 'mixed' couples?

Well, I am a "mixed" couple with my Asian wife. All three of our kids have black hair and brown skin. There are no problems with "mixed" marriages biblically or socially or medically. Wow. I can't believe we are actually discussing this as a real issue. Wow.

[justme15]

honestly, I can't believe it either.  I was trying to give Jean an opportunity to substantiate her beliefs.