This is utterly beautiful

[gothiclovemonkey]

Its a story about love, not what you think...
http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html

and the follow up to it, very awesome
http://www.danoah.com/2012/04/a-teens-brave-response-to-im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html

[willowtreewren]

GLM,

I want to thank you for posting this. It made me cry. The second post made me cry even more. I posted them both to my FB page.

I wish more people would do so.

I am an atheist and just recently I was at a rally in DC where the Westboro Baptist Church had an angry "God Hates Fags" contingent. The hate has to stop. We atheists are another "in the closest" population. The rally was a "coming out" event. LOL. I had a great time rubbing shoulders with 30,000 others like me. But I know that I have to be very careful in my home community as my very livelihood would be affected.

I am also a teacher and one of the most important things I teach my students is tolerance and love. In fact, that is one of the things that parents consistently comment about - how loving our school is. But like Jacob's "friends", many of them would disappear if they found out that I am an atheist.

I will be retiring in a few years and interestingly enough, I was thinking yesterday about a speech that I could give on my last day truly coming out of the closet. Those friends I have who know often comment, "How can you be an atheist? You are so KIND." That is the common prejudice against us - that atheists must be angry and evil (and immoral to boot).

I teach peace. And love. I wish the hate would stop. It diminishes us all.

Thank you.

Aleta

(correct typos)

[gothiclovemonkey]

 
I truly believe that if you are a good person inside, it shouldnt matter what you believe in, or dont believe in. If you know "right" from "wrong" and practice love, it shouldnt matter. Just because you are gay, straight, athiest, catholic, fat, anorexic, drug addicted, sober, doesnt make you any less of a human being who needs and deserves love and acceptance. Even if you dont agree with someones "ways" doesnt mean you cant love them unconditionally. I will love my son unconditionally, no matter what path he chooses for himself, I will love my neighbor, my 'enemy', and my friend in the same manor.
I am not a religious person at all, I have my own belifs and just the other day I was stopped in front of walmart by a religious group that wanted donations for suicidal teens. Great charity, but they decided to talk down to my bf and I, due to what he was wearing. A shirt that was probably highly offensive to most people, expecialy those of christianity.... She started to get very rude, and offensive, and even included me into the converstaion, i wasnt wearing the shirt, and never said i wasnt christian or otherwise, but because i was with him, i was being targeted as well. I got angry. I couldnt believe the hate she was spewing. She handed us something about the ten comandments, to which i said, I actually dig the 10 commandments, good set of rules to live by, even if you arent relgious... She said smugly, "Oh? So you live by them? Do you lie? Do you have lust?" (which just pissed me off, to have some B. talking down to me like that.) I said "Well, I have a child out of wedlock, so I guess so.. that doesnt make me any less of a good person" She didnt agree, so at that point im pretty angry... It was so frustrating I felt like i was being attacked for no good reason... I wasnt wearing the "offensive" shirt, so wtf? I had to walk away, no use arguing with stupidity and hatred. It will get you nowhere.
People are taught hate at a young age, even in school we are taught to spot the difference... Its no wonder there is hate everywhere we turn.

My son has picked up the word Hate. Which drives me crazy. I cannot stand that word. I correct him every time he says it. I admit, sometimes I do use it, but its a rarity, and when i do i try to stop myself and say, No, i dont hate, i highly dislike ...

[willowtreewren]

GLM,

I'm really sorry that more people haven't read and responded to your post. 

Just this morning I was reading on the IHD FB page and there was post after post of bashing toward those who asked that the religious sidebars be stopped. One member left and was basically told "Good Riddance!" by two of the Christian members. In other words, "if you don't agree with me, you don't belong."

The whole exchange made me very sad. Even sadder is the fact that those who espouse those sentiments do not realize how hateful they are, or at least how hateful they come across.

And speaking of the word "hate" we also teach the kids at school not to use it, as well. We teach them to use "dislike" or "don't care for" instead. It may be a little thing, but if kids get used to using the word hate, I believe they also get used to feeling it. And that doesn't lead to a more peaceful world.

 

Aleta

PS. I would love to know what the offensive shirt said. One of the most offensive shirts I have ever seen was one that had a very graphic, bloody depiction of Christ on the cross printed on the back. On the front using nails to form the letters was the line, "I believe in body piercing." I found it offensive because of the gratuitous use of gore. I would not want young children to have to see something so violent. Sigh. I choose to wear my "offensive" shirts (the ones that say "Friendly neighborhood atheist" and "You don't need god to be good") only when I'm with like-minded folks. I try not to offend people with opposing views in public. However, if they start in on me, I remain calm, but hold my own. 

[Poppylicious]

You're right, GLM; utterly beautiful. 

Just this morning I was reading on the IHD FB page and there was post after post of bashing toward those who asked that the religious sidebars be stopped. One member left and was basically told "Good Riddance!" by two of the Christian members. In other words, "if you don't agree with me, you don't belong."

The whole exchange made me very sad. Even sadder is the fact that those who espouse those sentiments do not realize how hateful they are, or at least how hateful they come across.

It made me sad too.  I feel bad because I didn't pipe up and say something, but they scare me and I hate (sorry, dislike!) confrontation.  I think a couple of people on there would learn something if they were to read the first article.  The naughty part of me wanted to post a quote from the Qur'an or the Book of Mormon, or maybe even the Guru Granth Sahib, just to see if that got a reaction from certain folk (you know, religion/god is okay as long as it's MY religion/god.)  But I'm just not brave.

 

[willowtreewren]

Poppy, don't beat up on yourself. I think your idea of posting something from another holy book is spot-on, though. I think I'll do that some time when *I* am feeling brave.

 

Aleta

[glitter]

reposted!!

I have a gay nephew whom I adore- his life has been a hard struggle because of being gay. His own parents have turned away, disgraced. I say to him, they are the disgraceful ones! I love him and wish I could make up for his pain.

[willowtreewren]

reposted!!

I have a gay nephew whom I adore- his life has been a hard struggle because of being gay. His own parents have turned away, disgraced. I say to him, they are the disgraceful ones! I love him and wish I could make up for his pain.

Oh, Glitter. How sad for him. I can think of nothing more devastating to a young person than to be rejected by parents for something over which they have no control.

  to both you and him.

I wish more folks would repost this. It started a vibrant and heart-felt discussion on my FaceBook page.

Aleta

[gothiclovemonkey]

Oh, glitter, I am sorry to hear that his family did that to him.   Thats so sad.
I will share this once, and only once, as i know this forum isnt as ... open minded as id hope them to be, but I am not straight. I am not gay either, I sort of consider myself to be without sex. I am attracted to both males and females, but I do not act on it. I think mostly out of fear. Some people would say that im bisexual, but i think that would only apply if i had sex with both sexes, and i do not. LOL Yep im a weirdo. But, i have people in my life who are from all different walks of life. and I love them all equally. I wish more people would embrace love, instead of hate.
I hate hate. haha

Aleta, I will message you with the words on the shirt

Poppy! I ALMOST did that too... I didnt know which to pick. I was going to do something from Wicca. Im not Wiccan but I have studied it. I might have to do that.

[cariad]

Oh, GLM, we must get you out of whatever backwater you currently reside in. The Kinseys (America's sex experts) say that we all are somewhere on a continuum from almost totally straight to almost totally homosexual. Most people are somewhere in the middle. When I lived in San Francisco a popular topic of conversation was to confess the people that you knew who could get you to go against your sexual orientation. I always named one woman. I've never acted on it either, least not with her. I consider myself incorrigibly straight, but that does not mean I don't flirt with certain women or don't find some women so startlingly attractive that I think of those past conversations. We're all weird to someone. I'm sure there are religious fanatics that consider themselves the most normal people on the planet, yet when I see them I think they must have a serious mental illness. There is a car in Milwaukee that I see every once in a while, littered with angry religious rhetoric and - lucky us - outfitted with a loudspeaker on the roof. If that's not way more weird than finding people of both sexes attractive, then I clearly am missing something.

Now, as for the link. Uh, I hate to be such a killjoy, but everything I've seen and know about human nature and writing/speaking styles screams fabrication. This struck me instantly as a just-so story. I think he wants to drive traffic to his site and sell his book, and he seems to have succeeded. I could be completely wrong, obviously, but that did not sound like a 15-year-old, more like what a 30-year-old thinks a 15-year-old would write. It would be lovely if it were true, and certainly there are marvelous examples of people overcoming prejudice but they tend to be less.... tidy? I hope I'm not offending anyone, I just really find a straight, white male casting himself as the sage of anti-prejudice a little disconcerting, and he wouldn't be the first straight, white male to think what he had to say was so important that it justified making up a persona from an oppressed group.

The sentiment is lovely, that it is possible to overcome prejudice. The process is generally much messier, though, and I think it is a bit damaging to portray it as just a single epiphany and you're done. If it did happen, then I apologise to everyone, especially the author. I really wish I weren't such a cynic sometimes.

[MooseMom]

I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier, too, but I find it hard to read about hate in any form.  When I was in high school back in the 70's, two of my best friends were gay.  They didn't "come out" until once we all got to college, but I knew, anyway.  Their being gay just didn't register on my radar as being anything particularly significant, and I would have thought that 40 years later, we would have evolved a bit more in this regard.

There are just those people who have to have an adversary in life.  If it's not gays, it will be some other group.  And there are those people who do not wish to delve into their souls for guidance but prefer to be told what to think and how to act.  Being affiliated with a particular organized religion can make you go either way, depending upon what kind of person you are.  If you are a Christian, you can either take to heart the teachings of Jesus Christ that tell us to be kind to all people and to treat others as you would want to be treated yourself.  You can question why God made gay people; if you think that God has His hand in all things and has a plan for all of us, what is the lesson He is trying to teach us when He creates a GLTB person?   OR, you could accept the Bible as dogma and use it as an excuse for hate.

Human sexuality is complicated and knows no duplicate in what we think of as "the natural world".  Humans have sex for all kinds of reasons, and the same can't be said for gorillas or porcupines or penguins.

There have been GLTB people throughout human history, and it will always be this way.  God has been creating sexually complicated humans since Adam and Eve...just read the Old Testament!  LOL!

[willowtreewren]

There is a car in Milwaukee that I see every once in a while, littered with angry religious rhetoric and - lucky us - outfitted with a loudspeaker on the roof. If that's not way more weird than finding people of both sexes attractive, then I clearly am missing something.

 

I got a good chuckle out of that. 

Cariad, I think we need a pinch cynicism every now and then, so don't apologize. I tend to be waaaaaay too trusting for my own good sometimes. But so far it has served me well, so I'll keep at it. 

GLM, I agree with Cariad. In fact, part of the discussion on my FB page was about the continuum of sexuality. The bottom line is that there is no right or wrong place on the continuum or either gender! 

MM, I understand what you are saying about your friends' sexuality not being on your radar. Every year I have to fill out a form for the government listing the races of all the enrolled students. I always find it rather irritating because it makes me stop thinking of them as KIDS, and try to think of them as races. And one year I was totally annoyed by the whole thing because I had a lovely girl from Ethiopia, and a family from Tunisa but there was no selection for African African. 

  to all.

Aleta

[MooseMom]

And one year I was totally annoyed by the whole thing because I had a lovely girl from Ethiopia, and a family from Tunisa but there was no selection for African African. 

Years ago, I had a work colleague who was white and was a native of South Africa, but she had US citizenship.  It occurred to me that she was, in fact, "African American".

[deniferfer]

GLM

This is a great post! I'm Christian but I don't believe in them saying God hates anyone. Last I knew God love everyone and he never turns anybody away! It just sickens me to see them use God to spread a message of hate and being flat out mean!  But looking at history people have always found a way to hate someone..the witch hunts of Salem or even people separating blacks from whites. People need to grow up and stop it!

I'm adopted and I think this had shown me to be accepting of others. i have 6 brothers and sisters, we all different personalities, nationalities, religions, styles and wants. But it doesn't matter, they are still my family and I love them no matter what!  I also have some gay friends and I see the torment they have. If they should come out to their family or they could lose friends because of who they love. That's ridiculous to me! If its you child or friend you should accept them and still love them and never turn them away!

My youngest sister and I part of a group that supports everyone and I made her a bracelet she wears everyday and says WE STOP HATE. We have also made are house a safe haven for anyone that needs it. So far no one has taking it but we are here. 

Oh don't worry your in good company about being weird. I do things my own way and have thing happen to me that doesn't seem happen to anyone else but my family and friends know that just Jenn. . I say well after 30 of being like this its not going to stop so I just got to be me! Like just this week I was borrowing my moms fit and the car locked up and went into anti theft mode. The key wouldn't start the car and my bother in law comes to check it out and it works no problem for him..This has happen twice to me and only me... In whole time we have had the car...(4 years) Its things like that, I didn't want it to happen but life has a way of messing with me!

[gothiclovemonkey]

I love you guys so much! I love that you can be open, honest, and have opinoins but you dont shove them down peoples throats.

Everyone is weird to someone, of that I am sure.

As I have mentioned before, I dont really understand emotions like most people do, and hate completely baffles me. Especially that type of hate. How can you hate something you dont understand?

I agree that it may be fabricated, but even if it is, its still a lovely read, and message.

There is nothing wrong with being cynical, in this world especially. I have noticed my trust in people, even family, is very limited.

I think its silly, having to put ur race or whatnot on a form. I always want to put "other" on there LOL

Humans arent the only homosexuals...

Last night I was talking with some friends, and we were talking about a mutual friend who happens to be gay, my friends husband says, "You know what, I love lesbians, but I hate gays! its eww" and he said something about the act of anal . I said, "Do you hate them? Or you just dont understand them?Let me ask you this..have you ever done that with your wife?. " Of course... He stopped for a moment, and said that he doesnt understand how they can kiss another man, because eww! they are furry! Then went on to say he wouldnt be mean or not be a friend to a gay person, but he doesnt want to see it.
I can understand that, because to be honest, i dont want to see straight people doing it either LOL
Sometimes, I think people "hate" what they dont understand. Or what they are bred to hate..

[Poppylicious]

When I was in high school back in the 70's, two of my best friends were gay.  They didn't "come out" until once we all got to college, but I knew, anyway.  Their being gay just didn't register on my radar as being anything particularly significant.

I completely 'get' that.  My brothers way of telling me he was gay was to introduce me to a friend of his whom I'd been quite close to about ten years earlier (who I knew was gay).  As we went home I just asked him if they were more than friends and he said yes.  And that was it.  It didn't come as a shock or a surprise or anything; in fact, I had no reaction to it at all.  It just was.  It was as though I'd always known but never actually thought about it (if that even makes sense).  It didn't change anything about our relationship, although my mum later told me that he'd been really worried about telling me.

My mum (a Christian) really struggled with it and had no idea it was coming! She does admit that she hoped it was just a phase (he was 24 when he stepped out!) but she's fine now.  She hasn't told all her (church) friends but I imagine most of them probably know (he's 36 this year and usually only visits her with a man, whom he lives with, in tow ... ) 

 

[cassandra]

I found this saying very right for the complete intolerant attitude of a lot of so called people (including christians, and a lot of other religions, and non-religions, lets call them people) in this world of ours.

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.

love Cas

[willowtreewren]

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.

Spot on, Cas.

[MomoMcSleepy]

The first story reminded me of a picture I saw on facebook.  Poor Jacob, with no friends left!  Leave that crappy town!  Of course, it's hard to leave your whole life, but that sucks for him...off to read the next link.  Thanks for sharing!


the Jesus telling everyone to love one another picture (no swearing version)-- https://bobbiblogger.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/jesus.jpg


Wow, just read the second one, and it  brought me to tears!  I'm so glad the mother took it that way, and what a way to tell her!  Good for him to get mad and stand up for himself!  I hope his dad takes it well...

What I can't believe is that the teacher didn't get into trouble, though.  Where I used to teach I would have gotten it bad, not so much for the gay part, but the Christian part.  "Keep religion out of schools." Even if the teacher was in a Christian school, it could get really rough.  People are so unreasonable nowadays.  Both the kid and his teacher had amazing guts.  Or the teacher was young and didn't know how much trouble that could turn into....

[Kitty Cat]

GLM

I really agree with your post about the word "hate". When my daughter was little, she would hear it at school, bringing it home. We put a screeching halt to the use of that word. That is one of those words that is extremely powerful, not in a good way. To this day, she still doesn't use the word, her little ones don't know it (I'm sure that will change when they go to school)

As far as religion, I am Catholic. I've heard all the jokes, sarcasm, etc. This is my belief. I ask nobody else to accept or deny it. I would never shove my religion down anybodys throat. What works for me may not be somebody else's thing. I accept that with no problem. I also accept willingly that everybody has their own ideas. Isn't that what's supposed to make us all unique?

[gothiclovemonkey]

I love that many of the people here seem to share this ideal. most people i know offline arent so accepting and caring... unfortunately.
 

[deniferfer]

I know how that is. I'm luck my friends are accepting online but a lot of people aren't.
On Saturday I'm going to be apart of a flash mob for my sisters guy friend that wants to tell his friend he wants to be his boyfriend. I'm not going to lie I'm a little scarred how the people in town will react just cuz it is a gay couple.. But I'm going to do it cuz it really sweet! The guy is a nervous wreck right now but I told him that if a guy did this for me I would say YES!!   

[MomoMcSleepy]

I know how that is. I'm luck my friends are accepting online but a lot of people aren't.
On Saturday I'm going to be apart of a flash mob for my sisters guy friend that wants to tell his friend he wants to be his boyfriend. I'm not going to lie I'm a little scarred how the people in town will react just cuz it is a gay couple.. But I'm going to do it cuz it really sweet! The guy is a nervous wreck right now but I told him that if a guy did this for me I would say YES!!

good luck with it, I hope it's the kind of thing he likes!  I wouldn't like it, but I don't like being center of attention like that, I always react poorly to surprises, and I got asked out in front of a crowd once in hiigh school and the peer pressure was awful!  Is this friend of his gay, too?  I hope it goes well!

[gothiclovemonkey]

AWWWW! Thats SO adorable! and will be s much fun!!!

[paris]

I love reading this thread.  I need to go back and check, but did just women post?     I grew up with a very modern thinking Mother. She fit no molds of a 50's Mom. She always worked with every stereotype that others turned their back on.  There were many times we would get up in the morning to find extra people in our house -- if she couldn't find them a safe place, they came home with her. No matter what religion, race, culture, etc.  She truly taught us to see no difference. Then she lead a summer camp for years that was designed expecially for handicapped, inner city kids, blind and deaf, along with campers from The Jewish Center. And we had intern counselors from Europe.   What is wrong with our world?  Why is race, color or creed even important?   We live in the heart of Southern Baptist country. Their churches do lots of work in our city. I admire then for that.  But they don't accept gays, gay marriages, and prefer to keep different colors in different churches.  I am generalizing, I know. But, whenever anything would happen, my friend would always say "that is God's plan" "everything in God's timing"  and the one I love the most "God knew all along when you would get your kidney".    I am a church goer.  Because I like an hour each week of peace and friendliness.  But, I don't believe there is someone sitting up there saying, yes, you can have a kidney now.  If you pray hard enough, it will happen.  Then why did my sister in law die of cancer?  Why do children get bullied? Why do we judge others by what they are, not who they are? Because we don't pray enough??   We are a part of the gay community in Raleigh.  Love supporting drag bingo, Aids walk and ride, and anything that brings awareness.   And then their is my daughter and the man she loves. He is from Tunisia and yes he is Muslim.  I have learned so much from him and love discussing religious things with him.  He always knew he would leave Tunisia and live in America.  Isn't this what America is about?  But our relatives have concerns about his religion and some even ask if we worry about him having terriost contacts!!   Hatem says really he should be considered African/American (when he is a citizen) because he is from North Africa and is proud of being from Africa.   Sorry --- hate and racism really get me upset.    My favorite line from a musical is "we have to be carefully taught".  And each generation is taught to hate.  I don't get it.   I'm done ranting, but this seemed like the place where I needed to rant.     

Thanks gothiclovemonkey.  You know I adore you and agree with you on so much.