Church and State

[HouseOfDialysis]

There's also the Free Will/Divine Plan split. I remember people in my own family, pastors, priests, etc go on at length about how we all have a free will to decide our own live, but also that God works his Divine Plan because he knows what we do before we do it. Which would then lead one to think a few things. But that'll open up a whole new avenue.

[Willis]

I expect this will rub many people the wrong way, but I just don't think that God is all that concerned with our mortal existence. I don't mean that he doesn't CARE, but rather that it's UNIMPORTANT. It's my belief that our brief lives whether a few days or a century are nothing more than the birthing process. Very painful and scary. But the end result is worth it. Does a mother go through a birth because she wants to harm her child? No, it's just how life is. A mother's perception of life and that of a newborn are far apart, but much closer to each other than anything we can really conceive about God. His ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts.

The years of our lives are nothing to God who exists outside of time and space as we understand it. Just blips on the calendar. We weren't made for the world as it is now; rather, God created a spiritual, yet physical world that was perfect for man (and woman of course). I believe that world still exists--call it another universe or spiritual plain or whatever I don't care--and God is waiting for us there. Someday we'll all look back to our lives on earth like that first scary bus ride to kindergarten--and laugh.

(Of course there are some wicked people who have lived nothing but wretched and evil lives who might not be laughing so much, but that's another topic.)

 

[MooseMom]

Dear Moosemom, I know the struggles you have had with your child, but I fail to understand why you would blame that on God.

Really?

John 3:16      ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17     For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I've never really understood how the gruesome death of the Son of God can be attributed to God's love for us.   Again, I am no theologian, so perhaps my question is naive, but can you explain this to me?  And when it is said that Jesus Christ is our Savior, from what is He saving us?

Hemodoc, what do you pray for?  Do you think God hears you?  What do you ask from Him on a day to day basis, and what do you offer Him?  From what have you been saved?

[MooseMom]

Willis, you may be right.  Your post didn't rub me the wrong way; I'm interested in hearing what people believe our life on earth really means (or doesn't mean).

[Hemodoc]

There's also the Free Will/Divine Plan split. I remember people in my own family, pastors, priests, etc go on at length about how we all have a free will to decide our own live, but also that God works his Divine Plan because he knows what we do before we do it. Which would then lead one to think a few things. But that'll open up a whole new avenue.

The issue of free will boils down to a discussion on love which MUST be free to be true love.  You cannot coerce love, it must be by choice and by actions. Love without action is unrequited, love without choice is NOT love. It is risky to give someone the free will to love or reject, but to take away the choice then terminates in something much less than true love.  Sadly, most people reject God. The path is broad that leads to destruction and narrow is the gate that leads to righteousness.

[MooseMom]

Sadly, most people reject God.

This is another pretty sweeping condemnation.  How do you define this rejection of God?  Do people not go to church often enough?  Do they not pray enough?  Do they not treat each other with enough compassion?  How do you know that "most people reject God"?

[Hemodoc]

Dear Moosemom, I know the struggles you have had with your child, but I fail to understand why you would blame that on God.

Really?

John 3:16      ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17     For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I've never really understood how the gruesome death of the Son of God can be attributed to God's love for us.   Again, I am no theologian, so perhaps my question is naive, but can you explain this to me?  And when it is said that Jesus Christ is our Savior, from what is He saving us?

Hemodoc, what do you pray for?  Do you think God hears you?  What do you ask from Him on a day to day basis, and what do you offer Him?  From what have you been saved?

it is not an easy concept to understand how God could atone for all of the sins of the world. I became a born again Christian through the study of Bible prophecy. I had many questions, most especially on how I could know that the Bible was really written when they claim it was written. I readily understood the historical truth of the Bible, but were they written after the fact and that is why they are accurate. It is a question that many have posed. However, I never once voiced this concern to anyone at all, only God knew my doubts. Making a long story short, through a friend of mine, my doubts vanished when reading through a specific topic fulfilled exactly today that was written about 2000 years ago. That was the moment that I realized that the Bible is the true literal word of God. Over the next few days, I literally spoke directly to the Creator of this universe and He answered many of my questions directly through His word.

So, when I come upon questions like yours on how could Jesus die for the sins of the whole world, it is beyond my human, finite reason, but because of my faith in God's word, I believe even if my understanding is limited. God has proven so many things to me, that I put me faith and trust in the rest that I cannot understand in my frail flesh.

From what have I been saved? My own sins and my own sinful nature. God is Holy and those that stand before Him must be holy. The trouble is, it takes only one sin to be a sinner of which we all have committed multitudes of sins. God is a righteous God, He is a merciful God and He also is a God of Justice. To not require justice for wrongs would make Him an unjust God. Since God the Father cannot be in the presence of sin, we are all without hope, yet:
 
16      ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17     For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18      ¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19     And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20     For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21     But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The OT sacrifices all pointed to the sacrifice of God's only Son as a ransom for many. How God did this, I don't know. But that is the central tenant of our Christian faith.

As far as prayer, the Bible says to draw close to God and He will draw close to you and in those times when I have drawn close to God, He has answered my prayers in amazing ways so that I knew without doubt that it was not just coincidence. Sadly, I am not always as close to God as I should be. Does God hear? Absolutely. The first prayer that the Lord hears is to save us from the judgement to come when we call upon His name.

Romans 3:10     As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
   23     For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
5:6     For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
   7     For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
   8     But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
6:23     For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
10:8     But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
   9     That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
  10     For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
  11     For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
  12     For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
  13     For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I believe the promises above completely and God has demonstrated His love to me personally and literally in so many ways. My faith is not at all blind, but based a true relationship with the Creator of the universe starting at the age of 36.

I wish you the best in your own quest for answers. Jeremiah the prophet spoke well:

Jeremiah 29:13     And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

[Hemodoc]

Sadly, most people reject God.

This is another pretty sweeping condemnation.  How do you define this rejection of God?  Do people not go to church often enough?  Do they not pray enough?  Do they not treat each other with enough compassion?  How do you know that "most people reject God"?

That is not what I say, it is what the Bible says.

John 3:3     Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4     Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5     Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:13     ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14     Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Ephesians 2:8     For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9     Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[MooseMom]

That is not what I say, it is what the Bible says.

John 3:3     Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4     Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5     Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:13     ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14     Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Ephesians 2:8     For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9     Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm sorry to be so thick, but I don't understand, and I'd really like to.  Are you saying that not being "born again" is tantamount to rejecting God?  How is one "born again"?  I'm not sure I understand well enough to pose a coherent question.

[Hemodoc]

That is not what I say, it is what the Bible says.

John 3:3     Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4     Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5     Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:13     ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14     Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Ephesians 2:8     For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9     Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm sorry to be so thick, but I don't understand, and I'd really like to.  Are you saying that not being "born again" is tantamount to rejecting God?  How is one "born again"?  I'm not sure I understand well enough to pose a coherent question.

God is spirit and we can only please Him in spirit and truth. You are not at all the first person to wonder what it is to be born again. It all boils down to believing His word first of all and understanding our own sin nature coupled by accepting Jesus as our Saviour. The rest God does, it is His gift.  Jesus prayed for his followers at the end of the last supper. The key to this is that those that are saved have received and accepted and believed His word.

John 17:4     I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5     And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6     I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7     Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8     For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Peter speaks of being saved by His word:

I Peter 1:16     Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17     And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18     Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19     But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20     Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21     Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22     Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23     Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24     For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25     But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Lastly, understand that the Bible is spiritually alive.

John 6:63     It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So, it is not by our works we enter into heaven. It is by belief in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. We either believe and accept the gospel, or we reject that belief. I have no doubt whatsoever of its truth.

God bless,

Peter

[YLGuy]

So, it is not by our works we enter into heaven. It is by belief in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. We either believe and accept the gospel, or we reject that belief. I have no doubt whatsoever of its truth.

So, are you saying it is okay to sin as long as you believe?

[Willis]

Enough with the churchy words...I've studied the Bible for most of my life and it is still hard to understand.

It's like this, Adam (or man in general if you take the analogical approach) came to a point of losing his innocence. He(she) became self-aware. (Actually, in this case Arthur C. Clarke came pretty close in the book and movie "2001.") All men are doomed to failure and there is nowhere in life to go but eventually to the grave. Those of us here on IHD know this perhaps better than most.

Now, in Jesus, God injected himself into the "mortal" plane as a means of showing us how there is something else and that does not have to be final. Even though Jesus lived a perfect life and was revered by the masses, that just made him hated by the religious people because he didn't fit their mold and he scared the secular authorities (the Romans) who then agreed it was best to do away with him.

But that's the rub: Jesus didn't stay dead! So Jesus proved in person that death does not have to be final. Jesus (the true Jesus) is still hated by the "Religious" and the secular world. Don't judge Jesus by people who call themselves Christian. Christianity is a wonderful faith except it gets a bad wrap do to its followers and "not-so-followers." Somehow people think Christians should be perfect example of love and charity. Perhaps, but Christ-follows can do nothing but follow and are not and cannot be perfect. As a Christ-follower all I can do is recognize that if by following the example of Jesus that I (and you) too can rise from the dead.

 

[Hemodoc]

So, it is not by our works we enter into heaven. It is by belief in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. We either believe and accept the gospel, or we reject that belief. I have no doubt whatsoever of its truth.

So, are you saying it is okay to sin as long as you believe?

In many ways, the greatest sin is unbelief. That is a sin without remedy.  God will forgive all other sins, but no it is no OK to sin before or after salvation. We shall all stand before God and give an account of everything we have done in our bodies whether good or bad. Remember how many times Jesus saved a person from their sins and said, go and sin no more. I believe His words on this issue are the final authority. Look at the Epistle of John:

I John 2:MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2     And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3     And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments . . .
6     He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Thus, Jesus is our example to walk as He walked so to speak. It is our goal not to sin, but when we do, we have an advocate for all men sin. But is it OK to sin, absolutely not.

[Hemodoc]

That is not what I say, it is what the Bible says.

John 3:3     Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4     Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5     Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:13     ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14     Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Ephesians 2:8     For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9     Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm sorry to be so thick, but I don't understand, and I'd really like to.  Are you saying that not being "born again" is tantamount to rejecting God?  How is one "born again"?  I'm not sure I understand well enough to pose a coherent question.

Dear Moosemom, perhaps the most succinct explanation of how people are saved comes from Romans:

Romans 10:17     So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It all comes back to whether the word of God is truth.  That is why the Bible is attacked by so many. I have found the Bible to be completely faithful in all ways.

[lmunchkin]

Well since this post has kind of gotten away from my original intent, please allow me to interject! Hemodoc, there is One sin that the Bible speaks as Unforgiveable and that is the UNPARDONABLE SIN! What is your understanding as to what that is? I have heard different versions of this, but would be curious as to yours.  Iam not questioning you because I too believe in the Bible, but have really never gotten a total answer to this!  Or can you give me the scripture, so I can read for myself!  Thanks so much!

IMO, you have been right on everything! I have read every scripture you have posted, and you have written accurately, the Words of God!

lmunchkin     

[Hemodoc]

Well since this post has kind of gotten away from my original intent, please allow me to interject! Hemodoc, there is One sin that the Bible speaks as Unforgiveable and that is the UNPARDONABLE SIN! What is your understanding as to what that is? I have heard different versions of this, but would be curious as to yours.  Iam not questioning you because I too believe in the Bible, but have really never gotten a total answer to this!  Or can you give me the scripture, so I can read for myself!  Thanks so much!

IMO, you have been right on everything! I have read every scripture you have posted, and you have written accurately, the Words of God!

lmunchkin     

Quite a bit of a jump, but here is one set of Scriptures talking about this, the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost:

Matthew 12:31     ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32     And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

[lmunchkin]

Thanks Peter!  I just read another explanation from Jesus in Mk. 3: 20-30. 

lmunchkin     

[MooseMom]

I am confused as to the nature of the Holy Ghost.  I have been told of the Holy Trinity, ie, The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost, but I have also been taught that the three are one.

Hemodoc, this is a very personal question, so please do not feel obligated to answer, but I'd be very interested in your thoughts.  How does Jesus Christ enter into your equation re your renal disease?  Do you think your disease is part of God's plan?  I hear an awful lot of people saying that terrible things that happen to good people are "part of God's plan".  Do you think that's true?  Do you think you, and the rest of us, are suffering through this horrible disease for a reason, and if so, what is it?

Do you ever ask God for anything?  Do you feel that God is giving you strength to deal with ESRD, or do you feel he caused you to have it?  Do you ask for strength? 

Is it a sin to be angry at God even though you believe He exists?  I've told him about my anger; do you think He has heard me?

[Hemodoc]

I am confused as to the nature of the Holy Ghost.  I have been told of the Holy Trinity, ie, The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost, but I have also been taught that the three are one.

Hemodoc, this is a very personal question, so please do not feel obligated to answer, but I'd be very interested in your thoughts.  How does Jesus Christ enter into your equation re your renal disease?  Do you think your disease is part of God's plan?  I hear an awful lot of people saying that terrible things that happen to good people are "part of God's plan".  Do you think that's true?  Do you think you, and the rest of us, are suffering through this horrible disease for a reason, and if so, what is it?

Do you ever ask God for anything?  Do you feel that God is giving you strength to deal with ESRD, or do you feel he caused you to have it?  Do you ask for strength? 

Is it a sin to be angry at God even though you believe He exists?  I've told him about my anger; do you think He has heard me?

Yes, three persons, one God. Let's start with the first reference to the Trinity in the Bible, even though the word trinity is not directly in the Bible.

Genesis 1:26     ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 3:22     ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Genesis 11:7     Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

I am told by folks a lot smarter than me that the "us" in the Hebrew meant the three of us specifically.

Take a look at Isaiah where a the start of the sentence, God speaks of Himself in the singular and then switches to the plural:

Isaiah 6:8     Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Now, let's look at the specific verses that speak of God's Son in the OT:

1)  PSALM 2

1     WHY do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2     The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3     Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4     He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5     Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6     Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7     I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8     Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9     Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10     Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11     Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12    Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Proverbs 30:4     Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

In the NT, we see several references but one in Hebrews tells the most since it quotes the verse in Psalms 2:

Hebrews 1:1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2     Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3     Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4     Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5     For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6     And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7     And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8     But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


Psalms 45: 6     Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Now, the Holy Ghost, who is the Holy Ghost and what does He do? John spells it out in his gospel account.

John 14:26     But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26     But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27     And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:7     Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8     And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9     Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10     Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11     Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12     I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13     Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14     He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15     All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Paul tells us more about the Holy Ghost:

I Corinthians 2:9     But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10    But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11     For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12     Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13     Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14     But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15     But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16     For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 This is echoed first in a treatise in the book of Job:

Job 32:8     But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Thus, it it the Holy Ghost that gives us the understanding of Jesus in things spiritual by comparing spiritual to spiritual.

[Hemodoc]

I am confused as to the nature of the Holy Ghost.  I have been told of the Holy Trinity, ie, The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost, but I have also been taught that the three are one.

Hemodoc, this is a very personal question, so please do not feel obligated to answer, but I'd be very interested in your thoughts.  How does Jesus Christ enter into your equation re your renal disease?  Do you think your disease is part of God's plan?  I hear an awful lot of people saying that terrible things that happen to good people are "part of God's plan".  Do you think that's true?  Do you think you, and the rest of us, are suffering through this horrible disease for a reason, and if so, what is it?

Do you ever ask God for anything?  Do you feel that God is giving you strength to deal with ESRD, or do you feel he caused you to have it?  Do you ask for strength? 

Is it a sin to be angry at God even though you believe He exists?  I've told him about my anger; do you think He has heard me?

There are few men that have suffered in the manner in which Paul the Apostle suffered. He has a unique perspective on human suffering and how it fits into God's plan. We are stuck here in our current reality not understanding that the life we have now is nothing compared to eternal life promised by God. Our temporal lives are actually but a blink in the eye even though from our perspective time seems long. But in reality, our time on earth is very short indeed.

James: 4:another?
13     Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14     Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15     For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

II Corinthians 11:23     Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool ) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24     Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25     Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26     In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27     In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28     Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29     Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
30     If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Philippians 3:8     Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Romans 8:16     The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17     And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18    For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. . .
28     And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29     For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30     Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31     What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32     He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Jesus came and suffered here on earth for us. The Lord tells us that our time of passage here on earth will be filled with suffering and tribulation. For Paul, he viewed his present suffering here on earth as nothing compared to the glory that the Lord has for us in eternal life. In addition, Paul learned humility in his suffering even in his flesh:

II Corinthians 12:5     Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6     For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7     And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8     For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9     And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10     Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Even though Paul had called upon the Lord to heal many people and even to raise some from the dead, God left him with a "thorn in the flesh" to keep him humble lest Paul be filled with pride and then God could not use Him to accomplish His purpose of preaching the gospel to the
Gentiles.

If you follow it out, Paul was legally blind and that was his thorn in the flesh.

Galatians 4:13     Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
14     And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
15     Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

So, even Paul the Apostle suffered physical ailments in the flesh and God used that infirmity to further the gospel of Christ making Paul dependent on God alone to accomplish his tasks. When we are weak in our own power and MUST call upon God, we become strong because we are then going in God's strength.

Does this give specific answers to why we suffer in our individual lives, no, but we are to call upon the Lord to give us strength in all things. Is that easy? No, not by any stretch of the imagination.

As far as my own renal disease, God speaks to us in that which we can bear:

I Corinthians 10:13     There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

For myself, the Lord has first of all given my home hemodialysis which is a blessing beyond all imagination compared to life in-center which was filled with those Monday night headaches from a mild disequilibrium reaction after the long weekend. I don't miss those headaches at all. In addition, I still have enough residual urine function to not need any ultrafiltration at all, nor any EPO nor any PO4 binders. I feel quite fortunate to have the grace of God in all of those factors and I do give Him credit that it allows me to bear it better than many who are unfortunately stuck in the in-center routine. God may choose to take me home whenever he pleases, yet to date, my time on dialysis has not been the usual course that many suffer. It has not been fun or easy in any manner, yet, I have been blessed with nearly 5 years of dialysis without any fluid restrictions, minimal dietary restrictions and other blessings. I don't like doing dialysis on a daily basis, but so be it. Life is still good in many ways, albeit different.

Do I have all the answers?  No, but I know enough to leave the rest in trust to God. The bottom line is whether the Bible is really the word of God or just a bunch of people making up their own god and selling it to the rest of us. I didn't find that when I searched the Scriptures for the answer to that question. Instead, my quest to know if the Bible really is His word led me to a place I never would have imagined at the start of that search, having a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe who wishes to have all men saved.

II Peter 3:9     The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

That is really the take home message of the entire Bible, God is longsuffering to us and wishes that all men come to repentance of their sins to come into fellowship with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

I hope this helps with some of your questions.

God bless,

Peter

[Hemodoc]

This is what separation of church and state is all about in the 21st century, protecting the individual right to self determine your religious preference:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/14/evangelical-pastor-in-iran-may-face-death-if-doesnt-recant/

Iranian Pastor Sentenced to Death Could Be Executed if He Doesn’t Recant, Says Verdict

Iran's Supreme Court says an evangelical pastor charged with apostasy can be executed if he does not recant his faith, according to a copy of the verdict obtained by a religious rights activist group.
Christian Solidarity World says Iranian-born Yousef Nadarkhani, who was arrested in 2009 and given the death sentence late last year, could have his sentence suspended on the grounds that he renounce his faith.
Those who know him say he is not likely to do that, for if he were disposed to giving it up, he would have done it long ago.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/14/evangelical-pastor-in-iran-may-face-death-if-doesnt-recant/#ixzz1S7AIePv7

[MooseMom]

Thank you for all of that, Hemodoc.  I have one last question for you, and then I promise to leave you alone.

What does God do with those who are unable to hear His word?  Are those who are disabled or who are autistic...those whose minds work in unfathomable ways...how do they learn of God, and how can they believe what they cannot understand?  Some people cannot believe that which they cannot see or cannot hear or cannot hold in their hands.

[HouseOfDialysis]

That's an interesting question. My son is autistic, though high functioning.

[jbeany]

Well since this post has kind of gotten away from my original intent, please allow me to interject!

I don't think posts regarding religion ever stay completely on track, munchkin!  The topic is too broad to ever truly narrow down! 

What does God do with those who are unable to hear His word?  Are those who are disabled or who are autistic...those whose minds work in unfathomable ways...how do they learn of God, and how can they believe what they cannot understand?  Some people cannot believe that which they cannot see or cannot hear or cannot hold in their hands.

Okay, I'm not hemodoc, and I know I don't share his strength of faith, but I'm adding my two cents here.  Have you ever (and I'm guessing you have) seen one of the autistic savants who see things so differently that they can reproduce an entire cityscape after looking at it for just a few minutes?   Those artists may not be able to "see" the logic in making change for a dollar, but they certainly see the world in amazing ways.  I've always thought that those with disabilities may be able to see God in a way we can't even begin to fathom, even if they can't make sense out of the written words of the Bible.

[MooseMom]

Yes, jbeany, I have seen the artwork of many autistic savants, but if you look at the work very closely, you will see that whereas it may be an exact replication of some scene, it probably will lack that fundamental essense of "art".  They may "see" the world in a different way, but that difference will usually be sensory, not of any innate or profound understanding.  Of course, autism is a spectrum disorder, so one autistic person may be very different from another, but all autistic people are affected by the "triad of impairments" to varying degrees.

To give you an example, my son had perfect handwriting by the time he was three (although once he got to school and was forced to learn cursive writing, that perfection dissipated), but he had trouble making up a story.  He could count to 1,000, but mathematical concepts were much more difficult.  He could recognize words and could read from a very early age, but he couldn't tell you in his own words what the story was about.  That part of what makes us human and artful is impaired.  So you can imagine how difficult it is to teach him about something like the existence of God.

Not only that, but my son refuses to enter a church.  When he was 4 or 5, he was still in a mainstream school, and some semblance of religious education was at that time still a part of the UK curriculum.  So, he and his class went to visit a local church, and he did not like that at all.  He particularly hates to hear singing in church (which I think is the best part of any service; I was in the church and chamber music choirs at college, so this was disappointing).  I've asked him what it is he dislikes about going into a church, and he can only tell me that it makes him sad.  He has a deep emotional well in certain areas that I don't yet entirely understand.

HOD, my son is high functioning, too.  I didn't know you had a son on the autistic spectrum, too!  Does he have any religious beliefs?  I am assuming you have heard of Temple Grandin.  I seem to remember hearing her speak about God; I'll have to go and see if I can find out how she "sees" Him.  I'd love to hear more about your son, if you care to PM me, as I don't want to hijack this thread more than I already have.