GOP Presidential Debate

[lmunchkin]

Yes, greed or the love of money is wrong, but there are those that just harden their hearts and hold that money. They will receive what they justly deserve. Dialysis, Im not sure of, because it is prolonging life with a machine, so I don't have answers to that. Other illnesses like cancer, alzhimers, parkinsons, MS, MD and the dozens of others I havent mentioned are just out right expensive, and I think the states could handle these as well.  They were doing it not to long ago, why can't they do it now?

What if the Fed's were not here? What if there was no Medicare?  I mean, I like to think we are pretty resiliant and caring enough that we could work through it with Lords help!

I don't know the answers to this country's problems, but this I do know, its late and Im going to bed!

lmunchkin
 

lmunchkin

[MooseMom]

lmunchkin, a couple of things occurred to me today, and I'd love to get your opinion.  Be warned...I don't have answers, just questions that I'm going to throw out into the stratosphere.

I have been thinking about the idea of "community-based care" and getting the federal government out of healthcare altogether.  Then I heard about the Susan G. Komen charity's decision to defund Planned Parenthood.  In case you have not heard, traditionally SGK had helped Planned Parenthood fund mammograms for women who couldn't otherwise afford it.  Now, PP has been sort of demonized for being abortion providers, but the vast majority of their work goes to providing basic health care, including mammograms.  One can see how SGK would want to support PP in funding mammograms.

Now, suddenly, SGK has pulled this funding in what PP is calling a political move.  One of SGKs vice presidents ran for office in Alabama (or was it Georgia) and made a campaign promise to defund PP.  Of course, SGK is denying this, and they are saying that since PP is "under investigation", they are prohibited from continuing funding.  I am not sure that we will ever know the truth. 

Now, SGK is the largest non-profit charity funding research and support for breast cancer patients and their families.  They are the largest grass-roots organization of its kind.  They are, in fact and in practice, "The Community."  They are us.  But they have made a decision, as a community, that restricts your access to healthcare, so if you are a poor woman who relies on Planned Parenthood for your pap smear and your mammogram, "the community" is going to make that much harder.  Is that fair?  Have you ever heard the phrase "tyranny of the majority"?  Why does "the community" have a say in which services you are able to access?

Now, you may hate abortion with a passion, and you may hate birth control just as much, but the fact is that as of today, having access to safe abortion is legal and is a protected right.  The Community may not like that, but it's the law.  Birth control is legal, too...The Community should not bar your access to it.

Three years ago, I had uterine fibroids that began bleeding.  It got worse and worse, and when I next went to my neph, we were all horrified to see my hemoglobin drop to 7.9.  Despite my CKD, I had never been anemic.  I was very ill, and I eventually had to have a hysterectomy.  But the most crucial thing was to stop the bleeding immediately, so my gyn put me on high doses of birth control pills to stop it.  My health was in danger, and those hormonal drugs were crucial.  Now, what if I lived in a community that was very conservative and did not believe that using birth control should be allowed?  What would have happened to me?  Can we really trust "the Community" to always have our best interests at heart, or must we be buffeted by their whims?

In reading a bit more about the SGK/PP controversy, I followed a link to an editorial from a Kansas City newspaper.  The article, written by a man, decried the decision.  What was interesting, though, was to read the comments that followed.  The were almost ALL comments from men, and they almost ALL agreed with SGK because of all kinds of reasons they made up, such as claiming there was a link between abortion and higher risks of breast cancer.  It begs the question...would you want Men of The Community getting to decide how your "female" health care is made available, or not?

What do you think?

[Gerald Lively]

“Brad Pitt should play me in movies.” – Newt Gingrich.

Screw the context. That is funny.

gl

[Hemodoc]

“Brad Pitt should play me in movies.” – Newt Gingrich.

Screw the context. That is funny.

gl

Newt is on his way out. Won't have to worry about him much longer my friend. What are you going to say about Romney. Boy is he rich, what an evil man.

[MooseMom]

My main concern about Governor Romney is his seeming assertion that he will run the government like a business, and I don't know if that's a good thing.  I understand that the economy is the most important issue in the minds of the voters, but we must remember that it is not the ONLY important issue.  Businesses exist to make profit, but that is not the reason that government exists.  I do agree that governments, local, state and federal, need to exercise prudence in their fiscal affairs, but the federal government is responsible for so much more than economic growth.

I look forward to the time where the GOP has chosen their nominee so that that person can speak more about issues other than the economy.  I don't think we will hear much about specifics from either party until closer to the general election.

I am all for people becoming rich because they've made innovations and provided services that people want.  Far from demonizing people who have become rich, I'd like to see everyone become rich!  But there is something about how Mr. Romney has become rich that I do question.  He seems to be quite good at working the system to benefit himself, and I'd like to know more about this.  I don't think he has done anything illegal, but I do suspect that he has had a hand in determining what is illegal and what is not.  For instance, he has given his sons each millions of dollars, but has any tax been paid on these gifts?  I know that as of 2 years ago, the tax-free ceiling was $10,000...it may be more now, but I don't think it is a million dollars.  I am sure there are many rich Democrats who take advantage of such policies, too, and it all feeds into my conviction that we are now an oligarchy.

My main concern is the very real possibility that whoever wins this election will have done so merely by outspending the other candidate.  Even if President Obama gains re-election, I will still wonder if the election has, in effect, been bought.  These people who are donating millions of dollars to a specific candidate must feel like they are buying something, wouldn't you think?  What are our candidates selling?

[Hemodoc]

My main concern about Governor Romney is his seeming assertion that he will run the government like a business, and I don't know if that's a good thing.  I understand that the economy is the most important issue in the minds of the voters, but we must remember that it is not the ONLY important issue.  Businesses exist to make profit, but that is not the reason that government exists.  I do agree that governments, local, state and federal, need to exercise prudence in their fiscal affairs, but the federal government is responsible for so much more than economic growth.

I look forward to the time where the GOP has chosen their nominee so that that person can speak more about issues other than the economy.  I don't think we will hear much about specifics from either party until closer to the general election.

I am all for people becoming rich because they've made innovations and provided services that people want.  Far from demonizing people who have become rich, I'd like to see everyone become rich!  But there is something about how Mr. Romney has become rich that I do question.  He seems to be quite good at working the system to benefit himself, and I'd like to know more about this.  I don't think he has done anything illegal, but I do suspect that he has had a hand in determining what is illegal and what is not.  For instance, he has given his sons each millions of dollars, but has any tax been paid on these gifts?  I know that as of 2 years ago, the tax-free ceiling was $10,000...it may be more now, but I don't think it is a million dollars.  I am sure there are many rich Democrats who take advantage of such policies, too, and it all feeds into my conviction that we are now an oligarchy.

My main concern is the very real possibility that whoever wins this election will have done so merely by outspending the other candidate.  Even if President Obama gains re-election, I will still wonder if the election has, in effect, been bought.  These people who are donating millions of dollars to a specific candidate must feel like they are buying something, wouldn't you think?  What are our candidates selling?

Buying political favors is as old as dirt unfortunately. With all the election reform of the last twenty years, it has only gotten worse. I don't see anything changing in this election. We can hope and wish for the perfect world, but that won't be this side of heaven.

Nothing wrong with earning an honest wage, putting together a successful business. The issue comes back to personal integrity and candor of those running the business. If it is dominated by greed and lust filled ambitions, it will bring hurt and destruction. Many people don't know the stories of some of the successful retail stores in the last century.

Many people who have had money also have had great character. Mr. Welch of Welch's grape juice; J. C. Kraft of Kraft Cheese; Henry P. Kroll of Quaker Oats; William Colgate of the Colgate Soap Company; Walter Johnson, the founder of Holiday Inn; J. C. Penney of the J. C. Penney stores; and R. G. LeTourneau of LeTourneau University and all the LeTourneau equipment. These are men who put God first in their businesses. Starting out, they gave to God a tithe, maybe 15 percent. Some of them got up to 90 percent. But when you give back to God 90 percent of what He gives to you, what do you have left? Surprisingly, you don't have 10 percent left; you have it all left, because when you can pass the test of character, God knows He can entrust you with everything.

http://www.backtothebible.org/index.php/Stewardship-Resources/God-s-Gift-of-Wealth.html

[Gerald Lively]

HemoDoc;

I have asked all the questions I needed to ask.  It appears you missed the point once again.

I wanted to know who and what you are.  I have asked enough questions to gain an accurate picture of your views, and while I do not agree with very much of what you say, I do see you clearly.   

Your verbose habits are interesting, your propensity toward religious preaching is unwelcome, your right-wing thinking is semi-hate filled toward the President and you seem incapable of handling one issue at a time.  The best interpretation I have of you is that of an ideologue.

You may be suffering from the “Doctors are Elite” syndrome, but I am not certain.  Something or someone in your personal history has caused you to think in harsh terms, very judgmental. 

I just wanted to know; now I know.

gerald

[Hemodoc]

HemoDoc;

I have asked all the questions I needed to ask.  It appears you missed the point once again.

I wanted to know who and what you are.  I have asked enough questions to gain an accurate picture of your views, and while I do not agree with very much of what you say, I do see you clearly.   

Your verbose habits are interesting, your propensity toward religious preaching is unwelcome, your right-wing thinking is semi-hate filled toward the President and you seem incapable of handling one issue at a time.  The best interpretation I have of you is that of an ideologue.

You may be suffering from the “Doctors are Elite” syndrome, but I am not certain.  Something or someone in your personal history has caused you to think in harsh terms, very judgmental. 

I just wanted to know; now I know.

gerald

Gerald, you mean you have met my ex-wife. Yes, you are my best friend indeed.

[Hemodoc]

HemoDoc;

I have asked all the questions I needed to ask.  It appears you missed the point once again.

I wanted to know who and what you are.  I have asked enough questions to gain an accurate picture of your views, and while I do not agree with very much of what you say, I do see you clearly.   

Your verbose habits are interesting, your propensity toward religious preaching is unwelcome, your right-wing thinking is semi-hate filled toward the President and you seem incapable of handling one issue at a time.  The best interpretation I have of you is that of an ideologue.

You may be suffering from the “Doctors are Elite” syndrome, but I am not certain.  Something or someone in your personal history has caused you to think in harsh terms, very judgmental. 

I just wanted to know; now I know.

gerald

Alinski Rule #13:

13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.  In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'...
     "...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...'
     "One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other." (pps.127-134)

The only thing that is frozen is your delusional thinking that you can know any man from an absurd politically construed conversation which I use quite loosely since this bears no resemblance to any sensible conversation. Inquisition is a better term thank you for agreeing.

I think you need so more work on rule #13, you don't have the Obama touch yet Gerald.

You are my friend, I am not your enemy.

Have a good day.

Peter

[Gerald Lively]

Your defensivness is showing.

Which part of what I said is incorrect?

[Hemodoc]

Your defensivness is showing.

Which part of what I said is incorrect?

You are doing good Gerald, but you need a bit more training on rule #13.  :sir ken;Your target doesn't appear to care a hoot about your false accusations. You need to become a bit more irritation to become more effective. I would recommend some extra-curricular reading to improve your tactics.

Compare with this excerpts from “Group Decision and Social Change” by Kurt Lewin:
      "A change toward a higher level of group performance is frequently short lived: after a “shot in the arm”, group life soon returns to the previous level. This indicates that it does not suffice to define the objective of a planned change in group performance as the reaching of a different level. Permanency of the new level, or permanency for a desired period, should be included in the objective. A successful change includes therefore three aspects:

UNFREEZING (if necessary) the present level...
MOVING to the new level . . . and
FREEZING group life on the new level."

http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/brainwashing/kurt-lewin-change.htm

[Gerald Lively]

Once again, you ducked the question.  YL is right.

[Hemodoc]

Once again, you ducked the question.  YL is right.

Sorry, I didn't know that there was a question in your long diatribe of delusional thinking against me. Sorry, what is the question?

[Hemodoc]

Once again, you ducked the question.  YL is right.

Sorry, I didn't know that there was a question in your long diatribe of delusional thinking against me. Sorry, what is the question? 

[Rerun]

I really don't want to read 7 pages of this crap but it has been turned in twice as having personal attacks.  So cool it, because if it gets turned in again I'm telling Sluff and he will come read this.  Keep it on TOPIC and no personal attacks or name calling.


Rerun, Moderator            

[cariad]

I really don't want to read 7 pages of this crap

Cannot blame you there, Officer Rerun!

Thanks for the work that you do, especially the annoying bits.

[cariad]

Today it looks like an Obama shoe in.
 

True!

[jbeany]

I really don't want to read 7 pages of this crap but it has been turned in twice as having personal attacks.  So cool it, because if it gets turned in again I'm telling Sluff and he will come read this.  Keep it on TOPIC and no personal attacks or name calling.


Rerun, Moderator            

Second Mod chiming in here, folks.  Tone it down or tune it out, but end the personal attacks.  If you are typing any sentence that has another IHD member as the subject, keep in mind that Epoman's rules of civil behavior apply.  We can, we have, and we will issue temporary bans to members who can't discuss these things without getting downright rude.

jbeany, Moderator

[lmunchkin]

Hey MM, just pulled up site and noticed your question? Sorry hadnt gotten to you but Ive been running all day. 

Yea, in regards to the SGK uproar, Im thinking do people not search the charities they want to give to. Ive known since 2006 that they distribute contributions to PP in part. That is the very reason I stopped donating to them because PP is against what I believe in. Not just the Abortion issue, but the contraceptive issue and the absences of men's issues too. Women are not the only one's in this Universe and I believe that there is alot of biase towards men.  I really do not understand why either.

I had some very dear friends and a Sister In Law that had breast cancer. SIL died in 2006, some friends did too. We looked into donating at that time to an organisation looking for cures. We were told about SGK and got an address to send donation to, with a request for a list of what they distribute to.  I believe it may have been3-4 months that we sent contributions, when we received a list from SGK.  PP was on that list, so we stopped our contributions.

When all this came out recently about this shocking revelation that they were giving distributions to PP, I thought, where has every one who gave these contributions been? Hopefully, this will teach people to research the charity's they donate there hard earned money to.

It's a choice to me and should be to others.  Im sure that PP will continue to get support from people. And I think it is good that SGK chooses not to continue distributing to PP.  PP has a massive following of people who will gladly keep them going Im sure.

Even though SGK has stopped funding to PP, I will not send our money to them. We have found some very good causes locally to contribute to.

I think you asked about the Politics of SGK decision?  Oh Im sure there was some political ponderence.  But in 2006, theyre was nothing political of our decision to stop contribution. It was principle for us.

Thanks for the Reminder Rerun!  I want to apologize to anyone that I may have attacked personally. That was not my intent.

God Bless,
lmunchkin
 

[okarol]

You can debate and argue and pontificate here, but there will be NO personal attacks of members.
Sluff has already posted a warning.
The next step will be a temporary ban.

For those of you who are uncomfortable reading these political differences of opinion I suggest you avoid this section.

The admin team's time is better spent focusing on the other 99% of the forum.

okarol/admin

[MooseMom]

lmunchkin, I am totally in agreement with you about how men's health seems to be ignored whenever there is talk about "women's issues".  Whether or not one agrees with abortion and/or birth control, the fact remains that these issues concern not only men but also whole families.  I don't know why more people don't understand this.

So, I did a bit of research and found this link on PPs site...

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/men-4285.htm

By what I can tell, all PP locations may not offer all of these services for men, but at least some do.  Men need their screenings, too.  You are absolutely right.

If you have decided not to send donations to SGK because of their involvement with PP, that is certainly your right!  I'm just glad that you have redirected those monies to another worthy cause.  God Bless You for doing that.   

I am curious, though, and I hope you don't mind me asking.  I promise not to be judgmental!     I've told you why I needed to take birth control pills for a short time...to stop the hemorrhaging that I was experiencing.  Both my neph and my gyn were in agreement that this needed to stop.  My gyn prescribed the pills (one month's worth) and my neph prescribed epo.  How do you feel about the use of birth control pills under this kind of circumstance?

[lmunchkin]

Oh I have no problem with the use of it for Medical purposes.  And totally understand that sometimes it can be taken for various reasons for the lessing of menstural (?) bleeding & pain. The only thing that I object to is for the use of it to avoid pregnancy!

I have never known you to be judgemental.  I have always found you to be open & fair!
Going to bed now! Work comes in the morrow!!!

God Bless,
lmunchkin
 

[RichardMEL]

Foutrh moderator comment (is this some kind of record?!)... What ReRun, Jb & karol said.

I am hesitant to even comment in this thread - many of your discussions here are very US-centric, and it's not even my country to comment on, but I do know one general rule in life - discussing religion and politics are generally  bad karma - and both have come up in this thread. I feel we need to all respect eachother's views and beliefs, and if you can't accept someone else's then it's best to move out of the forum/thread - nothing tends to divide opinions and people more strongly than such topics (well maybe sports too ) so we need to be careful IMHO.

Oh and I heard the Newt Gingrich's comment and he at least said it with a laugh and that "in my fantasy world" - I thought that was pretty funny.

[Hemodoc]

Foutrh moderator comment (is this some kind of record?!)... What ReRun, Jb & karol said.

I am hesitant to even comment in this thread - many of your discussions here are very US-centric, and it's not even my country to comment on, but I do know one general rule in life - discussing religion and politics are generally  bad karma - and both have come up in this thread. I feel we need to all respect eachother's views and beliefs, and if you can't accept someone else's then it's best to move out of the forum/thread - nothing tends to divide opinions and people more strongly than such topics (well maybe sports too ) so we need to be careful IMHO.

Oh and I heard the Newt Gingrich's comment and he at least said it with a laugh and that "in my fantasy world" - I thought that was pretty funny.

RichardMel, yes I agree in decorum absolutely, but I am a bit puzzled where all of this quorum of moderators was last week when there was a whole chorus of falsely accusing me of being racist and other such accusations.

I do have a serious question for the moderators since there appears to be a unique perhaps even historical quorum as you note. Since the Alinsky rules have been used openly against me for the last week, and since I decided to try this new radical method of discourse myself in the last two days, please advise which Alinski rules of engagement we can use in our political discourse here in IHD.

Thank you again,

God bless,

Peter

[MooseMom]

Oh I have no problem with the use of it for Medical purposes.  And totally understand that sometimes it can be taken for various reasons for the lessing of menstural (?) bleeding & pain. The only thing that I object to is for the use of it to avoid pregnancy!

May I ask another question?  You probably know this already, but the body of a pregnant woman actually makes more blood than that of a non-pregnant woman, and as a result, there is a greater workload on the kidneys.  So, if you have CKD, pregnancy can be a dangerous proposition.  When I was pregnant with my son, I had fsgs and didn't yet know it, and it nearly cost me my life.  I was in the hospital for 6 weeks.  Once I was biopsied and discovered my CKD, my neph told me that I really shouldn't get pregnant again.  Since I believed that I now had a responsibility to my new son to stay healthy, I had to make sure not to get pregnant, so for a short while, I used birth control pills and then had a tubal ligation.  So, my question is how do you feel about birth control for a married woman for whom a pregnancy may be dangerous?

If you don't care to answer this, as it is a rather personal question, please feel free to ignore me!  If you do choose to reply, thanks!!

(I know this doesn't have anything to do with the GOP debates, but you know how these discussions can veer way off topic!  LOL!)