GOP Presidential Debate

[Hemodoc]

Dear Moosemom,

Here is the latest on your Occupy movement. Is this really something that you support and appaud?

(CNN) -- Occupy activists tossed pipes, bottles, burning flares and other objects Saturday at Oakland police, who responded by using tear gas and smoke grenades and arresting more than 100 demonstrators, city and police officials said.
Oakland has been a flash point of the Occupy movement since October when police used tear gas to break up demonstrators who refused to leave downtown. One demonstrator, a Marine veteran of the war in Iraq, suffered a skull fracture after being hit with a police projectile, according to a veteran's group. Police said they acted after the crowd threw paint and other objects at officers.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/28/us/california-occupy/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

This is NOT civil protest, this is anarchy. Is that what you folks want? You demonize the Tea Party folks that simply want congress to follow the laws of this land and respect the constitution which gave us our liberties and protections and you call them draconian and extreme. What do you call these lawless anachists in Oakland?

[MooseMom]

Oh give me a break Moosemom. The word slavery is not in the King James Bible and the word slave appears only once in the old testament. In the New Testament, Paul addresses Philemon, a man saved by Paul's preaching and a slave of his named Onesimum who ran away to follow Paul. Paul reminded Philemon of what Philemon owed Paul by virtue of learning of the faith of Christ. He commanded Onesimus to return to his master but when Paul was in Rome, who do you think was there with him, yup Onesimus. Here is an example of where the gospel of Christ freed a slave. Please, if you are going to make an accusation against my Lord and saviour like that, please show me where, anywhere Jesus ever supported slavery. The people in the south were cruel, evil and wicked. Go learn more about John Newton and then come back and we will talk about the wickedness of slavery and all those of true Christian faith who opposed it all along.  You truly amaze me at times in the outright demonization of people like me. So please, be very careful what you attribute to Jesus Christ. You are plain and simply wrong.

Once again, Hemodoc, I am not demonizing "people like you."  I'm not even sure what that means.  And I am not making an accusation against God that He supported slavery.  Quite the contrary.  It was the slave lords of the Deep South that interpreted Jesus' lack of outright condemnation of slavery as praise for it.  They did not stop to think that Jesus just might not have been happy with their disgusting, evil treatment of another human being.  Remember, these slaveholders didn't even think that slaves had a soul.  As you said, "we will talk about the wickedness of slavery and all those of TRUE CHRISTIAN FAITH WHO OPPOSED IT ALL ALONG."  Well you see, those slave lords in the Deep South believed that THEIRS was "the true Christian faith", and they distorted the word of Jesus Christ to justify their inhumanity.  Far from demonizing you, I am agreeing with you that true Christians never attributed the glorification of slavery to Jesus Christ.  But I am also pointing out that just because an evil man claims to be Christian doesn't make him so if he in fact enslaves another human being.

So, really, if you are going to continue to demonize and spout talking point propaganda, what shall be any semblance of a conversation. I am a conservative, willing to speak in a very liberal political thread. If you wish to learn from my experience please do so, but so far all I have heard is just unbelievable platitudes.

Folks this nation is in extreme trouble that will undergo draconian changes simply because folks have lossed the ability to listen and learn from each other. Good grief, do we have to fight the civil war all over again just to discuss GOP polititic. WOW.

I appreciate your willingness to speak in a "liberal political thread".  That's one of the things I like about you.  And I am trying very hard, as always, to listen to your point of view.  I make it a point to listen and learn from you.  I do not feel the need to fight the civil war all over again, but since you mourn the unwillingness of people today to live in a godly manner, I would like to make the point that our history is littered with people who believed they were living in a godly manner as they were enslaving one population and destroying another, so maybe we should be very careful when we define what it is to live in a "godly manner."  Since you are a man of faith, I submit that it would be a good thing if those in government and those in power, political or financial, would heed the word of God and behave in ways that benefit us.  Is this sentiment an "unbelievable platitude"?

[MooseMom]

Dear Moosemom,

Here is the latest on your Occupy movement. Is this really something that you support and appaud?

(CNN) -- Occupy activists tossed pipes, bottles, burning flares and other objects Saturday at Oakland police, who responded by using tear gas and smoke grenades and arresting more than 100 demonstrators, city and police officials said.
Oakland has been a flash point of the Occupy movement since October when police used tear gas to break up demonstrators who refused to leave downtown. One demonstrator, a Marine veteran of the war in Iraq, suffered a skull fracture after being hit with a police projectile, according to a veteran's group. Police said they acted after the crowd threw paint and other objects at officers.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/28/us/california-occupy/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

This is NOT civil protest, this is anarchy. Is that what you folks want? You demonize the Tea Party folks that simply want congress to follow the laws of this land and respect the constitution which gave us our liberties and protections and you call them draconian and extreme. What do you call these lawless anachists in Oakland?

No, I do not support this behaviour, just as I do not support the racist and disrespectful posters and chants spewed forth by some of the Tea Party supporters.  But I do not intend to ignore the message just because I abhor the hangers on in both groups who are more interested in causing trouble or venting their racist hatred than in speaking up about what they feel is right.  I am more than happy to decry the violence and otherwise daft behaviour of any OWS protester, but are you happy to do the same about the racism and disgusting disrespect shown by some TPs to our democratically elected President?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/10-most-offensive-tea-par_n_187554.html

How could you possibly support these people?  You claim that we have lost the ability for civil discourse.  You are so right, and here is the evidence.  You stand by these people and their blatant racist disrespect?  Or are you going to hide behind the "first amendment rights" argument?  No, I refuse to believe that of you.  I have more faith in you than that.

[Hemodoc]

Well, maybe making a little bit of progress. No, not everyone that calls Him Lord shall be with Him.

Matthew 7:21     ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22     Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23     And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The Lord knows those that are His.

What it is to live in a godly manner is found right after this passage:

Matthew 7:24     ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25     And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26     And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27     And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

You will not condone slavery by hearing and doing the sayings of Jesus.  Those that will ungodly amongst God's church shall find the worst condemnation:

Jude 3     Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4     For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . .

16     These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17     But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18     How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19     These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20     But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21     Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

[MooseMom]

Well, maybe making a little bit of progress. No, not everyone that calls Him Lord shall be with Him.

Matthew 7:21     ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22     Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23     And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The Lord knows those that are His.

Exactly.

What it is to live in a godly manner is found right after this passage:

Matthew 7:24     ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25     And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26     And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27     And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

You will not condone slavery by hearing and doing the sayings of Jesus.  Those that will ungodly amongst God's church shall find the worst condemnation:

Jude 3     Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4     For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . .

16     These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17     But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18     How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19     These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20     But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21     Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

So my philosophical question would be...if bodies such as, say, our federal government, large dialysis providers and CMS were to act in a godly manner, what do you think that would look like? 

[Hemodoc]

Dear Moosemom,

Here is the latest on your Occupy movement. Is this really something that you support and appaud?

(CNN) -- Occupy activists tossed pipes, bottles, burning flares and other objects Saturday at Oakland police, who responded by using tear gas and smoke grenades and arresting more than 100 demonstrators, city and police officials said.
Oakland has been a flash point of the Occupy movement since October when police used tear gas to break up demonstrators who refused to leave downtown. One demonstrator, a Marine veteran of the war in Iraq, suffered a skull fracture after being hit with a police projectile, according to a veteran's group. Police said they acted after the crowd threw paint and other objects at officers.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/28/us/california-occupy/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

This is NOT civil protest, this is anarchy. Is that what you folks want? You demonize the Tea Party folks that simply want congress to follow the laws of this land and respect the constitution which gave us our liberties and protections and you call them draconian and extreme. What do you call these lawless anachists in Oakland?

No, I do not support this behaviour, just as I do not support the racist and disrespectful posters and chants spewed forth by some of the Tea Party supporters.  But I do not intend to ignore the message just because I abhor the hangers on in both groups who are more interested in causing trouble or venting their racist hatred than in speaking up about what they feel is right.  I am more than happy to decry the violence and otherwise daft behaviour of any OWS protester, but are you happy to do the same about the racism and disgusting disrespect shown by some TPs to our democratically elected President?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/10-most-offensive-tea-par_n_187554.html

How could you possibly support these people?  You claim that we have lost the ability for civil discourse.  You are so right, and here is the evidence.  You stand by these people and their blatant racist disrespect?  Or are you going to hide behind the "first amendment rights" argument?  No, I refuse to believe that of you.  I have more faith in you than that.

Oh give me a break again. Back to the racist Tea Party accusations that got me into this thread in the first place. I thought we were making progress, but I guess we haven't made any progress at all. Hermain Cain if he had his moral house in order would likely be leader of the pack at this time with his ability to motivate and articulate. If you didn't notice, he is a black man and he has defended the false allegations of racism against  the Tea Party.  Here is a statement from Black conservatives who make up part of the Tea Party. One of the greatest interviews I ever heard was some idiot who called into Herman Cain's radio show to rant about the Tea Party racism and didn't even know Cain is a black man.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/P21PR-TeaParty_030411.html

I guess you haven't seen the fake Tea Party candidates that the DEMs put forth and are now being prosecuted for. Moosemom, take a look at the deliberate smear campaign against the regular Joe Six Pack that just is asking for a government to be honest and abide by its own laws. You truly have a very distorted view of the Tea Party movement. Absolutely distorted. Not sure I can correct that since we are right back to square one with accusations of racism. This is where we started a few days ago Moosemom.

http://www.salon.com/2011/03/17/dems_tea_party_charges/singleton/

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/40699.html

Moosemom, let me show the real face of Tea Party people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjLBIc7FeUA

Listen to that clip with a whole bunch of white folks who came to a listen to a black talk about how to recover America and ended in that manner. That Moosemom IS the Tea Party movement. I fear that you have no clue to what it is that motivate Tea Party people like me because you have filled your mind with so much propaganda driven brainwashing about us that you simply have no clue the pure and simple motivations of me a Tea Party Supporter. i will let the last man singing be my answer to you now and in the future. The next time you come up with some absurd Tea Party accusation, I will answer you again and again with that clip until you at least understant what motivates us. Not asking you to agree, but only to understand which I am afraid you have a LOOOONNNNNGGG way to go.

[Hemodoc]

Well, maybe making a little bit of progress. No, not everyone that calls Him Lord shall be with Him.

Matthew 7:21     ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22     Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23     And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The Lord knows those that are His.

Exactly.

What it is to live in a godly manner is found right after this passage:

Matthew 7:24     ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25     And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26     And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27     And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

You will not condone slavery by hearing and doing the sayings of Jesus.  Those that will ungodly amongst God's church shall find the worst condemnation:

Jude 3     Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4     For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . .

16     These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17     But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18     How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19     These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20     But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21     Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

So my philosophical question would be...if bodies such as, say, our federal government, large dialysis providers and CMS were to act in a godly manner, what do you think that would look like?

Like Scribner.

[MooseMom]

OK, I understand your claim that there is no racism underpinning this hatred for our President.  In fairness, would you be so kind as to read this article and at least try to imagine why some might think you are wrong?  Could you perhaps be fair enough to look at the tea party from a different perspective?  It may not be YOUR perspective, but that doesn't make it invalid.  Just be fair and read this; tell me why the author's observations are wrong.

Thank you for your time.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/11/02/race_and_the_tea_partys_ire_107805.html

That's it for me tonight.  Thanks for another interesting few hours of discussion!  I'm going to lollygag in bed and watch the men's final at the Australian Open.  I've been sleep deprived for days because of the tennis!  Good night!

[Hemodoc]

OK, I understand your claim that there is no racism underpinning this hatred for our President.  In fairness, would you be so kind as to read this article and at least try to imagine why some might think you are wrong?  Could you perhaps be fair enough to look at the tea party from a different perspective?  It may not be YOUR perspective, but that doesn't make it invalid.  Just be fair and read this; tell me why the author's observations are wrong.

Thank you for your time.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/11/02/race_and_the_tea_partys_ire_107805.html

You already know the answer, you have stated in prior comments that the GOP is not happy with the Tea Party. Neither is the Tea Party happy with the GOP but they are the only conservative game in town. Yes, take it back under a representative government and clean out the corruption and cronyism that polutes this nation. Is it a long shot, you bet. Is it something we should do? You bet.

I have spent a LOT of time with veterans while on active duty and since having a bunch in my medical practice. There are millions of Americans who have willingly sacrificed for this nation in military service willing to give their life for an idea: freedom. That is real. All of us that entered the military swore an oath to defend the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic. We need to do some more work on the domestic enemies of the constitution who wish to destroy that which many have given freely their lives. We need to understand this in America since it is about to dry up and blow away in an apathetic, gimme, gimme new generation of people who know nothing of sacrifice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL1RtJFqBRw

[Hemodoc]

Here is where the race will focus once the GOP primaries are over. It will all be about Obama and his trail of broken promises. How about his promise to control the debt. What happened with that one?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/01/30/as-debt-ceiling-skyrockets-obama-no-longer-calling-bush-increases-unpatriotic/

[MooseMom]

What do you all think about the timbre of the GOP race?  I can't remember much about the Obama/Clinton race (I wasn't well during that period of time), but I do remember people being generally horrified when Mr. Obama made some sort of remark to Hillary about her being "likeable enough"....remember that?  And I do remember her saying to him "Shame on You!!" ,and the media went nuts.  Everyone was talking about this being such a bitter race, etc.  And I guess it was...4 years ago.

Am I misremembering things, or would we be correct in saying that this GOP race is particularly nasty?  I think it is.  Now, I don't think it's a function of Democrats being nicer than Republicans or anything like that.  I suspect that it is either a function of the new powerful superPacs, or maybe it is the media creating more friction and conflict for ratings sake, or (and this is my personal opinion) it could be because Newt Gingrich is fundamentally not a very nice man.  LOL!  (See...no name calling! haha!)

What do y'all think?  And do you think that the bitterness will continue and worsen?  What do you all predict?

[Hemodoc]

What do you all think about the timbre of the GOP race?  I can't remember much about the Obama/Clinton race (I wasn't well during that period of time), but I do remember people being generally horrified when Mr. Obama made some sort of remark to Hillary about her being "likeable enough"....remember that?  And I do remember her saying to him "Shame on You!!" ,and the media went nuts.  Everyone was talking about this being such a bitter race, etc.  And I guess it was...4 years ago.

Am I misremembering things, or would we be correct in saying that this GOP race is particularly nasty?  I think it is.  Now, I don't think it's a function of Democrats being nicer than Republicans or anything like that.  I suspect that it is either a function of the new powerful superPacs, or maybe it is the media creating more friction and conflict for ratings sake, or (and this is my personal opinion) it could be because Newt Gingrich is fundamentally not a very nice man.  LOL!  (See...no name calling! haha!)

What do y'all think?  And do you think that the bitterness will continue and worsen?  What do you all predict?

I think the GOP race will rap up soon. Romney did appear presidential in his address today and did not even give much time to Gingrich at all. Gingrich is showing that he is quite profane and that will turn off anyone that supports him after a while. Romney is saying all the right things tonight from  GOP point of view. Gingrich has isolated himself with his spiteful attacks while in the house and on this campaign. The majority of the "evangelical" vote is predominantly protestant or Baptist (no they are not the same) so the idea that they would prefer a Catholic candidate over a Mormon candidate makes no sense to me. Besides that, Bush kept claiming to be a born again Christian, but geez, I have a real hard time finding the fruits of Christianity in his actions, oh well, only God knows, but I wasn't impressed to say the least. I am actually quite skeptical of a lot of politicians who claim to be born again Christians. I don't know Ron Pauls spiritual status, but if he said he was a born again Christian, I would believe it because he is a man of conviction and integrity. I will have to look that one up to see. No matter what you think of his politics, much of which I don't agree, he appears honest, not after filthy lucre and has a genuine concern for this nation. I believe that is real. Bush, not convinced at this point, but that is between him and God.

In any case, good question, I think the GOP race was essentially decided tonight and people are going to start lining up behind Romney. If nothing else, his wife has a much better testimony than Newt's third wife and would be a much better representative of the people than a person who appears to be a social climber. With her disability from MS, Mrs Romney could be an important ally for dialysis patients.

In any case, good question Moosemom. It is late and I have to drive to LA for an iron infusion tomorrow. I hate going to LA but that is my only option for a one time infusion that will last me several months. Almost one year since my last one and my iron is REALLY low right now, less than 15% sat. Been a bit of a zombie lately.

Have a good night.

God bless,

Peter

[MooseMom]

One of my husband's colleagues has a wife who has MS, and she suffers quite badly from it.  She is an executive at Sears, and she is going to have to decide soon whether or not to leave her job as the stress exacerbates her symptoms.  They have a teen aged boy and a new baby, so her stress levels must be stratospheric.  She has been hospitalized several times lately with severe headaches.  It doesn't seem that Mrs. Romney is nearly this badly affected, so I don't feel quite so bad in agreeing that her own experience with chonic illness might serve us well.  I hope that doesn't sound too mercenary.

I tend to agree with you about Mr. Romney.  I always expected Speaker Gingrich (see, I'm trying to be respectful!) would self distruct sooner or later.

I agree that Ron Paul does seem to have the courage of his convictions, and I admire that mightily.  I am not aware of him claiming to be a born again Christian as he does seem to steer clear of that topic. 

I trust you will not be driving yourself to LA as that is not a good idea if you are a zombie.  Zombies are notoriously bad drivers.  I hope you get to feeling better soon.  Not much going on politically in Feb, but you must return to feeling super for Super Tuesday!  I would be interested to know how much time usually elapses between you getting an iron infusion and you feeling better.

Take care,
MM

[lmunchkin]

I was for Bush the first term and was quite ready for him to leave by the end of his 2nd term, literally.  But I will say this to his shagren, that when he won the first election he was late on getting on board because of the Hanging Chad's Debocale in Fla.  Then when he got in there he had to restructure everything, but then Boom, 911 happened, and he had to be in a total Different mindset.

He really hadnt had time to get his whole staff in place!  Clinton (whom I voted in the first term) had shut down alot of our military bases and downsized the spending for the Defense budget.  I mean, looking back at it, Bush wasn't really given the opportunity to show the american people of the President he Wanted to be due to 911. And he should have gone to Afhganistan instead of Iraq, but with the intellegence he was given, he went with what HE thought was right at that time.  Over time, we will soon find out whether that was a good decision or not.  I also know, that God has a plan, and we all are in it whether we want it or not.

I remember he was the only president whom ever sent me money calling it "Tax Rebate" I think!  Then when 911 happened, I just trully believe, thank goodness, he had to go on the defensive.  But I do believe he was given bad information from CIA & FBi and whoever else.  But we must also remember, Clinton had cut that back too.  No body was communicating with anybody at that time.  So Bush really did the best he could do with what he had.  I do also feel that the war went on way too long and Ben Laden should have been found alot sooner!  But then again, that wasnt Bushes fault, that was the intelligence we had at that time.

I do believe Bush tried the best he could starting out, but he, like the rest of us believer's, fell so short.  I think he wishes he had done things somewhat differently, but 911, I loved his responses, and backed him 100%.  He was there for us all when those towers fell, and often wonder, had Al Gore been in office, what he would have done?  One never knows.  But I do believe Bush to be a Christian. Like me, he just fell from grace, but bounces back to reality!

lmunchkin
 

[Hober Mallow]

Am I misremembering things, or would we be correct in saying that this GOP race is particularly nasty?  I think it is.  Now, I don't think it's a function of Democrats being nicer than Republicans or anything like that.  I suspect that it is either a function of the new powerful superPacs, or maybe it is the media creating more friction and conflict for ratings sake, or (and this is my personal opinion) it could be because Newt Gingrich is fundamentally not a very nice man.  LOL!  (See...no name calling! haha!)

What do y'all think?  And do you think that the bitterness will continue and worsen?  What do you all predict?

I don't think this race is any nastier than any other race. Remember when Clinton made the offhand suggestion that someone might assassinate a President Obama? Or when George Bush Sr. called Reagan's economic policies "voodoo economics?" In the end, the Republicans will rally behind Mitt Romney and all this ugliness will be forgotten.

[Hober Mallow]

Dear Moosemom,

Here is the latest on your Occupy movement. Is this really something that you support and appaud?

(CNN) -- Occupy activists tossed pipes, bottles, burning flares and other objects Saturday at Oakland police, who responded by using tear gas and smoke grenades and arresting more than 100 demonstrators, city and police officials said.
Oakland has been a flash point of the Occupy movement since October when police used tear gas to break up demonstrators who refused to leave downtown. One demonstrator, a Marine veteran of the war in Iraq, suffered a skull fracture after being hit with a police projectile, according to a veteran's group. Police said they acted after the crowd threw paint and other objects at officers.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/28/us/california-occupy/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

This is NOT civil protest, this is anarchy. Is that what you folks want? You demonize the Tea Party folks that simply want congress to follow the laws of this land and respect the constitution which gave us our liberties and protections and you call them draconian and extreme. What do you call these lawless anachists in Oakland?

It would be easier to take the tea party at their word if they had they been around during the Bush administration while we were amassing record debt and watching our civil liberties erode.

The Occupy protesters want money out of politics. The tea party should be embracing that.

[cariad]

I do believe Bush tried the best he could starting out, but he, like the rest of us believer's, fell so short.  I think he wishes he had done things somewhat differently, but 911, I loved his responses, and backed him 100%.  He was there for us all when those towers fell, and often wonder, had Al Gore been in office, what he would have done?  One never knows.

True, one can never know for sure, but I do believe Gore would have listened to Clinton's administration in August 2001 and 9/11 would never have happened. That is not to say that terrorists would not have eventually found inroads and done something destructive, but we would not be calling it 9/11 because it would have been delayed and taken a different form.

I also feel in no way, shape or form was Bush 'there for me'. Ick. His immediate response was to continue to read a children's book rather than politely excuse himself and deal with the crisis. The man is dumber than dirt. The name of the children's book I've often thought would make a great trivia question. Anyone? I know what it is because I have tried to think of decent questions for those rare occasions when I win that game.

[lmunchkin]

I disagree about Gore.  I believe his response to 911 would be for everyone to "Hug A Tree"!  After all, He did invent the "Internet".  What a joke!  Yea, Cariad, guess we will never know!  He was Senator for my state and did NOTHING productive!  I highly doubt the Presidency would have made any difference.  He certainly didn't do much when Vice-President. His father, on the other hand, did have some backbone.

He came to my fathers aide in 1969 when one of my brothers was blown up by a land mine in Viet Nam.  Dad was having a hard time getting the paperwork up to go over seas to a hospital in Japan to see his son.  Gore Sr. made it happen.

I believe Obama is a good family man, but I do not believe he is a leader.  A motivational speaker, Yes!  But I just don't see where he has done anything that WOW's me.  But I do believe he loves his family and is a good father!  I doubt that I can convince any of you who support him to change your mind, just as my mind probably will not be change either!

Im sure some on here would agree with me about how he handled 9/11.  He was shocked!  It certainly shocked me. I couldn't say how I would react if I were in his shoes.

lmunchkin
 

[Gerald Lively]

HemoDoc:

Let us not argue, discuss or debate.  Just let us know where you stand:

1.   Do you support the idea of Universal Healthcare for all citizens?
2.   Do you wish to see Medicare continued?
3.   Do you wish to see Social Security continued at the present level of benefits?
4.   Do you agree that we should be in Afghanistan fighting “a” war there?
5.   Should the defense budget be reduced?
6.   Do you agree with the Buffett rule that those earning over $1 million should be taxed at 30%?
7.   Shall we abolish the Patriot Act?

Gerald

[Hemodoc]

1.   Do you support the idea of Universal Healthcare for all citizens?

Answer: Not in the form of Obamacare. The majority of Americans, I believe 85-90% were already satisfied with their private health care plans. We are talking about taking a sledge hammer to a problem. For those LIKE ME who can afford to pay for my own health insurance, why should the government pay for my health care and at the same reduce my choices. What we are talking about is what to do with the 10-15% with poor access to healthcare.

I would point out, my wife comes from a country where there is no health insurance, no social security and no safety net whatsoever, the Philippines. Over there, if you are homeless, well you can get a cardboard box and live in it or you can die. Americans are spoiled to no end and fail to understand that EVERY person who walks through an emergency room door WILL be treated no questions asked period. In such, we already have universal health care today for all emergency and urgent matters. The underinsured costs are subsidized by the insured patient and that is why a band aide in the hospital can cost $100.

The majority of the 10-15% that have no insurance or are under insured have access to Medicaid and other state and Federal programs.

So, which percentage of universal health coverage do you wish to talk about?

Sweden has a universal health law requiring all citizens to buy health insurance. All health providers are non-profit and compete for members in privately owned health plans. There are constitutional issues with the individual mandate, but if that is upheld, throw the heavy handed Obamacare out the door with their terrible government control of individual health decisions and put in the Swedish model.

Otherwise, fix the problem of the 10-15%  and let everyone else that can buy and afford their own health care to compete in a free open market. A socialized medical system like the NHS is completely obnoxious to me as a patient and as a physician being the place to make medical decisions, not in congress or parliament like the NHS is today.

After seeing how messed up the ESRD program is and having to lobby congress and CMS to make changes to dialysis that we should never have entered into and instead kept the protocols worked out by the dialysis pioneers such as thrice weekly nocturnal home dialysis as the gold standard treatment. The ESRD program in my mind is the pure example of why socialized medicine fails in the long run. Sure, everyone gets treated, but EVERYONE gets sold short with a median survival of 36-38 months.

I have spoken with several in the industry and they keep telling me the biggest problem with dialysis outcomes in America is in the reimbursement structure of CMS. I have spoken to these leaders that have lobbied CMS to change the system allowing incentives for keeping people out of the hospital and rewarding nephrologists in that type system. To date, CMS and congress shrug their shoulders and do nothing. Once again, it is the prime example of what happens when you have to literally get an act of congress to approve a medical treatment. Truly stupid system in my opinion.

The nephrologists continue to debate the merits of daily and extended dialysis regimens. If CMS and congress changed the reimbursement and gave bonuses for keeping patients alive and out of the hospital which would result in huge cost savings, the American nephrologist would immediately embrace optimal dialysis practices and you would no longer feel like a train wreck every time you come home from dialysis.

I jut got my iron infusion today on the 5th anniversary of starting dialysis on 2-1-2007. It is about 5 hours since my session ended. I ran at 350 blood flow, 500 ml ultrafiltration which is pretty usual for me. Yet, leaving the unit, I got my endotoxin rush, a headache and feeling lousy until I just ate a sugary pecan pie  a few minutes ago. With NxStage, they have ultra-pure dialysate so I never get the butterfly feeling in my gut I always get with in-center dialysis that has a much higher endotoxin concentration in the dialysate. (Endotoxins are bacteria cell walls that are metabolically active even after the bacteria are dead) They won't let me do iron infusions at home, so I still have to submit to this torment about once a year or so. Europe and other nations have much more stringent standards.

To change the endotoxin standards in America, we will need an act of congress. Endotoxins I am sure contribute to your run over by a truck feeling.

So, no, I oppose the heavy handed Obamacare approach on many levels. Should we care for all those in need, absolutely.

My colleagues in OB/GYN had to take panel patients (the uninsured) on a regular basis. It was demanding, it was very unappreciated work at high risk with essentially no compensation for their efforts. They have an 18 year tail in their malpractice since a malpractice lawsuit in OB care can be filed up until the child is 18 years old. I heard nothing but complaints over and over again by my colleagues of the number of times these people getting free care threatened to sue or did sue for trivial matters. My colleagues were the highest level of care in the Valley with several of them very prominent medical school professors publishing papers all the time. It was high quality care that many of these people were completely ungrateful.

Obviously there were many who were grateful, but too many were simply sources of aggravation and danger to my colleagues. Just as many people that abuse the section 8 housing like the family that lived 3 doors over from us, had about 25 people in a house meant for 4-6 people, sold drugs in front of my house, committed burglaries, gang activity, had fights almost daily in front of my house at the end of school across the street and violated just about every HUD regulation in the book. Did the Feds, State, County or town do anything to remedy this serious criminal infringement upon the life of my neighborhood for over 4 years? NO NOT ONE DAMN TIME. The only thing that saved our neighborhood was the housing crises and the owner foreclosed. The bank sold the house and that was the only reprieve we had. One section 8 house filled with criminal activity by people who abused the system and government did nothing in fulfillment of their mandated regulatory oversight no matter how many of the thugs were arrested, no matter how many violations such as their pit bill attacking a severely injuring a man, his wife and two kids just walking down the road. Even with that, the government took NO ACTION.

So, would I trust the Feds with my health care to manage like they manage HUD. Absolutely not my friend. The closest I would accept is the Swedish mandate and non-profit private companies that compete for patients with a government sponsored insurance for those that couldn't afford it.

2.   Do you wish to see Medicare continued?

Answer: Yes. So why has Obama gutted Medicare to pay for Obamacare to the tune of 500 billion dollars? If he is reelected, Medicare will be replaced with Obamacare for everyone. Obamacare is only a stepping stone to a national health system like the Brits. He has so stated.

3.   Do you wish to see Social Security continued at the present level of benefits?

Yes. Make the govnt' quit stealing from the trust fund and it will work fine. Increase LEGAL immigration if we don't have enough American born workers to support the system.

4.   Do you agree that we should be in Afghanistan fighting “a” war there?

Time to get out.

5.   Should the defense budget be reduced?

No, there are many other nations building huge armies and navies today: Iran and China to name two that are not countries that we would want to have more power than we do.

6.   Do you agree with the Buffett rule that those earning over $1 million should be taxed at 30%?

No. I paid 35% and I didn't earn anywhere near 1 million dollars. You are not separating the facts. Many of those that earn over a million dollars do it with capital gains which has a 15% rate. The tax the rich, I am going to pay your mortgage is a dangerous class warfare that will not do this nation any good at all. If you want to tax capital gains at a higher rate, that is not smart for employment of folks like you and me looking to put food on the table. Obama now has I believe 42 million on food stamps in 3 years. It was 28 million under Bush. Is that your idea of prosperity?

As far as income tax, those folks are already at 35% just like me.  Buffet I am sure is making a whole lot of money in govn't contracts with Obama for his weird ideas that are only blatant propaganda. If he wants to donate money to the govn't, good for him. Not my choice. If he wants to talk about capital gains taxes, that is a separate issue from income tax. Don't conflate the two issues.

7.   Shall we abolish the Patriot Act?

Yes and throw in the NDAA and several other acts including the income tax act and the Federal reserve act as well. Throw in the Military commissions act, the John Warner defense bill as well  all of which I believe are unconstitutional.

[lmunchkin]

Gerald, I know Im not Hemodoc but I would like to answer my stance on this if I may:
1- I think the health care syste should be State runned and not Federally. The care & nurturing should come from the area in
    which we live.  I do believe that the Health care industry needs to be over hauled. Now, I am not sure on how that should
    be done. It can be done without the Federal Gov't intervention but doubt that it ever will.
2- Yes, for those hard working citizens who paid into it through their payroll.

3- I think people should have had the choice long ago to either save for retirement with Fed. Govt (It has always been mandatory)or made to invest the portion taken out by Social Securty into a Savings, mutual or whatever to earn interest. Social Security was not meant to be a retirement check, it was intended to supplement your retirement. I just think people should have the freedom to choose.

4. I believe we should have taken it wherever Obama Ben Laden was at.  But no one knew where he was. We heard all different places.  But I do not believe he was in Irag, but another dictator was, but personally, I don't think he posed a threat to the US like Bin Laden who acted on his plan and did it successfully, and masterfully.

5. No, I don't think they need to reduce defense spending.  We have got to stay on top Militarily for the future of our children and their childrens children.  We need to defend our country and if we don't stay on top of technology that allows that, then God help this country.

6. It is none of my business what Warren makes or pays in taxes. I know that if he chooses to pay more, then let him do it by donating or maybe pay down our national debt.  I do not want the wealthy to help me at a mandate.  Let them do what they wish!  Anyway you look at it, they are still paying more in taxes than any one with a lower income! Example: 10% of 10,000 = $1,000    /   10% of 100,000 = $10,000.  They still pay more than those in middle to low income. I am totally not on board with class warfare. 

7. I think it has its good and bad points, so I really don't know about the Patriot Act.  Maybe for uncertain times yes, but during peace, maybe not.

lmunchkin
 

[MooseMom]

1- I think the health care syste should be State runned and not Federally. The care & nurturing should come from the area in
    which we live.  I do believe that the Health care industry needs to be over hauled. Now, I am not sure on how that should
    be done. It can be done without the Federal Gov't intervention but doubt that it ever will.

I am not sure about this, lmunchkin.  I understand that it sounds good to have your "care and nurturing" dictated by where you live, but this would put an awful lot of financial pressure on states that are already having budgetary problems.  I don't think it is fundamentally fair to have the quality of care you'd get be determined by your zip code.  If you happen to live in a poor state, would you be happy getting a lower quality of care than someone who lives in a richer state?

Also, we have some states that are quite large where residents resent power being concentrated in the capital.  So for many people, there would still be this resentment that healthcare decisions were being made by the state. 

[Gerald Lively]

Indredible!  In may neighborhood I am a moderate.  You guys make me look like an extremist.

1.   Do you support the idea of Universal Healthcare for all citizens?
In government, the more complex the system, the more likely it will fail.  I believe government sponsored healthcare is a right.  That is my opinion.  So, why not a direct single payer system such as what is used by Medicare?  Then, why not combine veterans healthcare, Medicare, aspects of Social Security dealing with health issues, and the various state health programs into one Universal Healthcare system?  In my view, the 10% to 15% identified by HemoDoc cannot be ignored and cannot be forced to buy any insurance policy. Compassion, Folks.  Also HemoDoc, I had to laugh at this - - “Verbose”.

2.   Do you wish to see Medicare continued?
See above.

3.   Do you wish to see Social Security continued at the present level of benefits?
I have a contract with government and I expect them to hold up their end of the deal.  As for the financial manipulation of Social Security, this came from a 1983 law sponsored by none other than Ronald Reagan.  Since then Congress could not resist the windfall of bucks.

4.   Do you agree that we should be in Afghanistan fighting “a” war there?
We should never have entered Afghanistan militarily.  I am most definitely anti-war.

5.   Should the defense budget be reduced?
Absolutely. The current defense budget per capita is higher than it has been since World War II.  There is no need for that.

6.   Do you agree with the Buffett rule that those earning over $1 million should be taxed at 30%?
Equity.  There are too many tax loopholes to justify the current low tax rate for the wealthy.  If our tax rate is 28%, should should everyone’s tax rate be at that level. 

7.   Shall we abolish the Patriot Act?
Yes. Taking away citizen rights guaranteed in the US Constitution is a sure road to fascism.  We are not at war and we are not in danger of any kind of invasion.

[lmunchkin]

Yes, I really would like for the medical needs be obtained locally.  But the likelyhood of that happening in todays enviroment is practically null. Iam old enough to remember the days when local county hospitals took care of those in their county's.  Neighbors would help each other out and so on.  If I can remember that, then it wasnt that long ago, lol! 

But over the years, I do believe that our choices are being taken away which really in a sense, is our freedoms. I just want to go back to that time, but sadly, we are too dependent on Federal Government!  Do I think we can go back, yes absolutely!  People didnt make that much money either, but they worked so hard for a good life.  Family was important and God was at the center of it.

Yes, MM, I do want that and I think if the Fed. Govt. would let the state's handle it, it would be run so much better.  I believe Drs, patients, insurance companys would all work together for the common good of their needy, poor, widowed or any other afflictions people have. 

Whats lost here in my opinion, is the heart of a people, who quite frankly, do not want to be bothered. Im that way sometimes myself!  But I don't like to be that way and I do not believe the Lord wants us to be that way.  Iam human though and I have to ask forgiveness daily!

I just believe that more things could be managed much better on a local basis rather than a National basis. But all the money is going into Federal Govt with trickle down to the states.  I just feel that is not right.  The Federal Govt knows not what my family needs nor do they care, but I think people closer would! I don't know the answers, but I do wish we could go backwards and stiill believe it is possible.

lmunchkin
 

[MooseMom]

I understand your concern, lmunchkin, and I, too, wish that our medical needs could be met in our communities.  But with health care so expensive, often because of how corporations and pharmaceutical companies have inflated their prices, I don't want to see our communities bankrupted by my medical needs.

It would be wonderful if our neighbors and our churches could help provide for care, but who could possibly rely on charity to pay for something like dialysis?  I have no doubt that people would WANT to help their neighbor who has ESRD, but they couldn't pay for such an expensive treatment that lasts for years.

I had my annual PAP smear and mammogram done this past week.  I didn't have to pay anything out of pocket because I'm lucky enough to have insurance.  But just today, I read an article about how much these simple procedures cost...about $500 each.  I had no idea that these tests cost so much.  Most of the expense of health care is hidden from us, the patients, so when we say that we would like to see more "community care", beware of what you wish for because then the community would have to bear these enormous costs.

I personally am uncomfortable with the entire concept of anyone making money off sick people.  There is something fundamentally immoral about that, but then people will tell me that capitalism is good, that making profit is desirable, but I'm not sure that Jesus Christ would agree.  To think that dialysis providers make so much money yet deliver such crappy inclinic dialysis seems so very sinful to me.  I don't know which is worse...having health care decisions made by the fed govt or having them made by some insurance company bureaucrat.  Remember how my insurance company tried to get out of paying my claims by just making stuff up (like how I was not an American citizen so was not eligible for coverage after all!)...I wasn't profitable enough to them.