The new airport full body scans

[MooseMom]

Anyone been through one of these things at the airport?  My son is coming from London for Christmas, and this will be the first time he will be not be travelling as an unaccompanied minor.  He's too old, but he is still autistic.  He's been travelling on planes back and forth to/from the UK/US since he was 4 months old, so I know he will be OK, but it makes me a bit nervous to think of him going through security by himself.  He doesn't process spoken language very well...you have to know just how to talk to him.  If you're too wordy, he can't follow what you're saying, and if you bang on too long, he tunes you out after a while.  I was today explaining the new security machines to him, and I asked him if he would like me to go through security with him when he leaves O'Hare, and he said "yes", which means that I will have to go through the new machine and they will be able to see all of my lady bits.     If any of you have been through one, what was it like, and did you just hate the intrusion?  Or did you think it was worth it in order to feel secure?

Anyone opt for the full body pat-down?  What was THAT like?

[Jean]

Sorry MM, no experience there, altho, I did have to go thru a pat down in 2001. But, could the childs Dr. not send a note with him that would explain the circumstances? Maybe that would help him out.

[jbeany]

I haven't been through one at the airport.  I volunteer at the courthouse, though.  I have to go through the metal detector every time, and I invariably set it off, so I get patted down.  I didn't think it was a big deal.  The guards certainly don't do it to make you uncomfortable - and they mostly just look bored and annoyed that they can't figure what is making it alarm.  (Metal detector + underwire bra = BEEEEEEEP!)

[Riki]

I got into a conversation with someone on twitter about this last night.  They way I figure it, for people like us, or someone like me who's been seen naked by Lord knows how many people since I was 12 years old, people looking at a black and white, cartoonish image of what I may look like underneath my clothes does not bother me.  Even if it were more realistic, I don't think it would bother me.

[Mizar]

 
 I see no Problem, with either one.  Right after 911, I Flew and You Walked through the Metal Dectectors, but they did pull Random People aside, for a Pat
 Down. Yep, I got pulled. A 62 Year Old Granny. When they told Me what they were going to do, I looked at the TSA Agents and said, " Well, do I get to
 choose, the Person, that does it?" They were not Amused.

 At this Point in My Life, there is no part of Me, that someone else has not seen.   

[Restorer]

What about catheters? Do you think TSA agents are trained to recognize them? I'm afraid that if I go through the body scanner, they'd want to pat me down anyway because they're concerned about that thing "strapped to" my chest.

[Riki]

it only takes a second to pull open your shirt and show them what it is.  Same goes for PD catheters.

[rocker]

Oh, I haven't the slightest concern who sees me naked, but if I flew I would opt out of these idiotic machines every time.

There are...any number of problems with them.  The manufacturer will not release test data as to how much radiation they expose you to.  The manufacturer has, of course, been caught in lies before.  (Claiming the machine has no capability to store scans, after scans stored on the machine had already been released on the internet.  "Oh, when we said they can't, what we meant was...")  TSA agents have been told to make the pat-downs as unpleasant as possible to "encourage" people not to opt out.

But probably the most important thing is - they don't actually increase security.  They are trivially defeated, as are most US "security" measures.  In Germany, they find their scanners are being defeated by...pleated or wrinkled clothing.  They are expensive set pieces in the elaborate American security theater.

We need to ask ourselves how much freedom and personal dignity we are willing to give up because someone says it will make us safer.  What's next?

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[greg10]

..
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

That quote sounds good, but what is "Essential Liberty"?  It means different things to different people.  I think you give up some of those rights when you bought an airline ticket to be seated with hundreds of passengers.  I mean, they took away the rights for people to smoke on airliners which I am sure many smokers would have claimed as essential liberty, but most passengers are very glad to have gotten rid off.  I have only one suggestion to those who don't want to give up some of these liberties - DON'T FLY or charter your own plane and you can fly alone.
  I used to drive a thousand miles to avoid taking a flight because I was in poor health and would have terrible headaches on planes when they fly with lowered cabin pressure.  Now I am in better health and airline cabin pressures are better regulated, I am just very thankful to get on any flight and get to my destination.

[MooseMom]

I suspect the majority of passengers won't have a real problem with it, but there will be people who will find it a problem for perfectly valid reasons.

My son lives abroad, and if I want to see him, he has to get here by airplane.  There's just not another option.  So the whole "if you don't like it, then don't fly" doesn't apply to us all.  Furthermore, I'm a bit concerned about the inevitable chaos.  I fly quite a lot, and it is getting to be a big pain in the rear; I'm not autistic, so I can cope fairly well, but if a single TSA official gives my kid a hard time, I'm going to be all over his ass, I can tell you.  At O'Hare, the security queue in the International terminal is right next to the food court, so I'll be able to watch veeeerrrryyyy closely.   

I can guarantee you that if people do stop flying, the entire airline industry is going to go absolutely ballistic, and not by way of an explosive device.  Of course, if everyone just stopped flying, then the risk of airplanes exploding in the sky would be reduced drastically...perhaps that's exactly what we should do.  Gee...we have email and twitter and iphones and faxes and regular telephones and webcams; why travel at all?
 

[Riki]

My father believes, and this is probably the only time I agree with him, that flying should be reserved for transcontinental travel.  If you don't need to cross an ocean, take a train.  Now, for me, that would be one hell of a trip, so if it were done, new tracks would have to be built, or old ones reopened.  I looked into it once, and if I wanted to go to NYC from here, I'd have to take a bus to Moncton, NB, because we have no trains on PEI, and then take a train to Ontario and enter the US there.  This makes no sense to me, as NB borders Maine.  I'm thinking there probably are  tracks that go into the US from NB, but are used only for freight, since train travel has gone down so much in recent years.

[MooseMom]

I've always wondered why there is not more transcontinental train travel here in N. America, especially in the flat midwest and southern US.  I asked my husband about this when I returned to the US from England, and he told me that the truckers' union had lobbied for freight to be moved by road instead of rail, and at the time, the union was very powerful and they got their way.  The result is a lack of rail in the US.  I often think it would be nice to have more rail travel and have tracks built in an effort to put people in this country back to work.  But I'm sure there are plenty of lobbyists who think that's a bad idea for whatever reason.  And if the American people don't want the government to spend money on infrastructure and job creation, we'll just have to sit here and stagnate or fly and let ourselves be either irradiated or felt-up, or, if you're having a really bad day, a bit of both.

[cariad]

Oh, I haven't the slightest concern who sees me naked, but if I flew I would opt out of these idiotic machines every time.

There are...any number of problems with them.  The manufacturer will not release test data as to how much radiation they expose you to.  The manufacturer has, of course, been caught in lies before.  (Claiming the machine has no capability to store scans, after scans stored on the machine had already been released on the internet.  "Oh, when we said they can't, what we meant was...")  TSA agents have been told to make the pat-downs as unpleasant as possible to "encourage" people not to opt out.

But probably the most important thing is - they don't actually increase security.  They are trivially defeated, as are most US "security" measures.  In Germany, they find their scanners are being defeated by...pleated or wrinkled clothing.  They are expensive set pieces in the elaborate American security theater.

We need to ask ourselves how much freedom and personal dignity we are willing to give up because someone says it will make us safer.  What's next?

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Whoa! I was concerned about the safety of these machines, and as I consider you quite a reliable source on all things science, rocker, now I am doubly so. I have a flight coming up with two kids (husband can take care of himself). I spent a lot of time last night researching this after Mr. Don't Touch My Junk burst onto the national scene. One news reader (or maybe he was a weatherman) showed video of his 3-year old receiving the pat down and she was screaming to wake the dead. (The guy had a very bizarre reaction, too, saying she was fine and he understands how important this is. Gwyn and I joke that if an agent tried that on our 4-year-old, he would quite literally run the risk of losing that hand. Watch YouTube for footage...) The news man did give one helpful bit of information, though, which I intend to try. With kids, you can ask the ticket agent if your child has been pre-selected for screening. If the agent reports that they are, you can ask that they be deselected. I know Gwyn would volunteer for the feel-up if it would spare the kids and me. (Modern age chivalry!) I will let everyone know if it works.

What I read about the imaging device was that it uses very low-levels of radiation, and it is equivalent to a dental x-ray or 2-minutes at high altitude. I am not by nature the least bit paranoid, but are you saying that this has not been proved? I had medical radiation just recently, and there is a limit to how much you can have in your life. My cousin with brain cancer has already had his lifetime allotment - he can never receive that treatment again. Would that mean he would have to have a grope or not fly to be safe? That seems terribly unfair.

I have read comments by (supposed) ex-TSA higher-ups, I somehow stumbled upon a forum for these people saying that it is an open secret that the TSA is useless. One of them told the story of a guy who said he was a doctor and they let him board with a small pistol in his sock. Perhaps it's not true, but they all seemed to know a good bit of what goes on in that organization and were thoroughly scared for our future.

I'm like you, rocker. Don't give a toss about the looking, but I truly cannot stand to be touched by strangers, especially not any place private. *shudder* It does seem very Gestapo-ish - you're minding your own business, peacefully queuing up, some stranger in a uniform drags you aside and offers you two dire choices.... kind of sounds like dealing with kidney failure now that I think about it....

[rocker]

Heh...my feelings on this are based on far more information than can be neatly summarized in a post.

As far as the danger posed by these machines, the point is that we have no independent way to know.  As an engineer, I have some idea what's involved to get equipment to meet FDA safety standards - and we don't know that this equipment does.  We have only the manufacturer's word "Oh, it's safe."  Operational values of equipment can vary wildly between optimal operation by engineers in a lab, and constant operation in the field by minimally trained personnel.  Things go out of whack, things wear down - what are the inspection requirements for these machines?  What are the safeguards to test the shielding?  A hundred things we don't know, but can't know, because someone waves a hand and says "SECURITY!"  And at that point, we are to nod and smile and murmur "security" and shuffle through.

How easily are these machines defeated?  Think "body cavity."  Think "obese person with skin folds."

And again, the larger issue is that this is not security, this is "things to do that look like security."  People in the security business call it "security theater."  The reaction of the TSA has been comical over the last few years.  Some mentally ill guy stuffs something in his shoe, and awkwardly tries to light it with a match on a plane.  And so for years, every day, millions of people take off their shoes and put them through an x-ray machine.  Even though the odds against lighting a shoe bomb on a plane with a match and getting an actual explosion are astronomical.  But it's very important to show we are fighting the last war.  Ditto for liquids, ditto for panties.

There are many jokes about what happens to US airport security if someone tries to bring aboard bomb materials in a body cavity.  Is it really funny?

Israel, one of the most hated countries in the world, has a far less intrusive airport security system.  And somehow, El-Al planes are not dropping from the skies like confetti.  Read up on Israeli airport security if you want to know how it's done.

There are many reasons for people to say "Enough is enough" and demand real security.  X-ray scanners do little to advance that goal.

[paul.karen]

I agree with what rocker wrote.
As for israel...

Israel does what is illegal to do here in America.  Well it isn't really illegal it is called politically correctness gone awry.
Israel PROFILES why??
cause it works if done in the right manner.

[rocker]

I agree with what rocker wrote.
As for israel...

Israel does what is illegal to do here in America.  Well it isn't really illegal it is called politically correctness gone awry.
Israel PROFILES why??
cause it works if done in the right manner.

It is not illegal to "profile" in America.

It is illegal....and stupid....to profile based on race, or age, or gender, or some other fixed characteristic.  People who would want to attack us would be overjoyed if we profiled based on race - simply get someone of a different race and viola! problem solved.

It is certainly not illegal to "profile" (which loses any meaning when you expand it that far) based on behavior.  "Your honor, that officer illegally profiled me based only on the fact that I was pointing a gun at the clerk!"

The Israelis do not "profile", they watch for psychological signs (nervousness, inability to answer simple questions) and there is nothing about their methods which would prevent them from being used in the US.  Except it's expensive, and lots of people scream about cutting government spending.  And it's also, you know...hard.  And it's not a corporate welfare program, which seems to be where most of our money goes these days.

  - rocker

[paul.karen]

Profiling is illegal in America.  Racial profiling is illegal.  At least here in Jersey.

As for Israel they do profile,  your own answer about looking at there psychological signs peoples nervousness not being able to answer simple questions going abroad with no luggage buying a one way ticket ect ect is all profiling.
There are many different types of profiling.

behavioral profiling
racial profiling
consumer profiling etc.

As for costing more?  We have alot of TSA workers who are clueless who could be replaced by a few people who are truly trained at profiling (or whatever one wants to call it) and likely save money.

[MooseMom]

The Israelis do not "profile", they watch for psychological signs (nervousness, inability to answer simple questions) and there is nothing about their methods which would prevent them from being used in the US. 
  - rocker

This is what concerns me regarding my autistic son.  He is high functioning, and you probably wouldn't know he was autistic unless you really sat down to talk to him at great length.  If he gets nervous or anxious (which can be the reaction of anyone going through airport security these days), it is hard for him to concentrate on what you might be asking him.  That could be interpreted as "suspicious behaviour" that some poorly trained TSA agent would want to investigate more fully.  We are thinking seriously of equipping our son with cards that say he is autistic, but at the same time, we don't want to embarrass him.  So these upgraded security measures do pose a problem for us.  I really don't like the idea of subjecting him to this sort of thing.

[Riki]

Israel, one of the most hated countries in the world, has a far less intrusive airport security system.  And somehow, El-Al planes are not dropping from the skies like confetti.  Read up on Israeli airport security if you want to know how it's done.

There was a guy from El-Al on Countdown with Keith Olbermann tonight and what he said about profiling made sense to me.  They interview everybody, from the sounds of things, while they're in line at the ticketing booth.  It's probably just simple questions, like they ask when going through Customs. like 'where are you going?' "how long?' or 'business or pleasure?'  It seemed so simple. 

BTW, we don't have to take off our shoes in Canada unless we're flying into the US.  I always wear crazy colored socks when going to the states, just for the TSA people. *L*

[Sax-O-Trix]

I hope your son gets through security unscathed...  I have a daughter with Aspergers (high functioning autism) and I am not sure how they would react to her answers.  She could be completely "on" or seem "rather odd".  Good luck to him.

For myself?  I think I'd go for the pat down and resist the extreme temptation of being sarcastic. Although, I do like the "Do I get to pick who does it?" comment, lol.   I don't need anymore radiation!

[Rerun]

Paul and Rocker are both right.  What you are saying is in Israel if someone is nervous and fidgety boarding a plane with no luggage they can pull them off and it is legal.  In the US the person would scream "discrimination" based on color and win.  Wheather it is color or not.  That is how out of control and ridiculous it has gotton.

[Desert Dancer]

Quite frankly I almost wish I needed to fly somewhere, just to make a point of refusing both the scanner and the 'enhanced pat-downs'.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Give them one inch, and they WILL take a mile. We've already seen how this 'security theater' has escalated over the last nine years, do you really think they won't push it as far as they can, particularly if there's profit to be made? There's already been casual talk of outfitting each passenger with electro-muscular devices to shock them into submission; would that be okay, too, just to 'feel' safe? What about body cavity searches?

In the meantime there's no accounting for what goes into the cargo hold. Brilliant.

[paul.karen]

Bomb sniffing dogs work cheap.
Train more dogs to sniff explosives instead of drugs.

Seeing a dog makes me feel safer then seeing several zoned out TSA workers.

[MooseMom]

Bomb sniffing dogs work cheap.
Train more dogs to sniff explosives instead of drugs.

Seeing a dog makes me feel safer then seeing several zoned out TSA workers.

I like this idea.

[billmoria]

Moose Mom   call the airline and explain your situation. Most airlines will help your son out. He can be taken through by an aide (like disabled people are - I am not sure if his conditions is considered disabled or not.) By all mean let him take a doctors note with him.
My partner has a machine on his belt with wire leading down to his leg and to his shoe. Both sides of the Atlantic seem to have no problem with it especially if it obvious and out in the open.
Hope your son has a good trip.