Class

[Stoday]

Although the class divide has almost disappeared in the UK since the end of WW2, there is still a residual shadow left in the language.

In my last sojourn in hospital I noticed that the nurses referred to the midday meal as "dinner" whereas the doctors referred to it as "lunch". It seems the two versions of meal times are:
Breakfast / breakfast
Lunch / dinner
Dinner / tea
Supper / supper (if you have any room left  )

I wondered if other English-speaking countries have a similar distinction.

[cariad]

Every once in a great while you will run into someone in the US who will confuse everyone by calling lunch 'dinner'. They are the ones who tend to call dinner 'supper' in my understanding.

I am very picky about words - love most, detest some - and something about 'supper' has bothered me since I was young. So, I am biased and I guess that is why I've always somehow thought that this was a mark of the absence of higher education, but now that I think about it, it is probably just a regionalism.

What about 'pudding' as opposed to 'dessert'? Gwyn thinks 'dessert' sounds more educated - this from a man who calls it pudding, so please, no offense meant! (Welsh for dessert/pudding: pwdin. His choice was made for him.)

I think we mostly have regional variations, though surprisingly few for such a large country. The UK probably has more English dialects than we do. Southerners speak their own language most of time, and it's quite charming but only very rarely will I meet someone who just uses a totally different word for something common and I have to ask what on earth they are trying to say. (I had to drive through the South once, and I will always remember going into the restroom somewhere and seeing a woman with her two small kids in there, and she called the little girl 'sister' and the little boy 'brother' in the thickest deep South you've ever heard. I loved it! Straight out of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof!)

Pronunciation is another story, as is poor grammar.

Do you really think the class divide has nearly disappeared in the UK? I would disagree with that. I think perhaps you are just used to it and do not notice it as much as a foreigner does? Just a thought....

[Stoday]

Pronunciation is another story, as is poor grammar.

Misuse of words gets up my nose. Misusing uninterested/disinterested for instance. And very recently, affected/effected. "How does renal disease effect children?" Ahem — it's sex that effects children! 

[jbeany]

Supper and dinner both mean the 3rd meal where I'm from in northern Michigan.  Middle of the day is just lunch, unless it's early - then it's brunch.

So do you drink soda or pop?

[Riki]

For me, dinnertime is about noonish.. *L*  Supper is the evening meal... I noticed that that was a regional thing here too, as it seems that in Ontario, they use lunch and dinner.. although, if you go to a restaurant, the menus show "lunch" and "dinner" specials, and not, dinner and supper.  We do have suppers, here, which you go out for, like lobster and spaghetti suppers.

Cariad, I always thought that pudding WAS dessert, along with cake, pie, or ice cream. *G*

Here on PEI, older folks tend to use a lot of what I would call British terms for things.  When we first moved here, Dad worked in an auto salvage/auto recycling shop.  One fellow came in one day, looking for the "hood" of one particular type of car.  Dad looked it up on the computer, and it told him that there were a couple out back.  So, he went and he got what he thought the fellow was looking for.  When he came back, the fellow said,"no, I was looking for a hood."  Dad, being confused, said, "that's what this is, a hood."  Fellow says, "no, that's a bonnet."  It wasn't till then that Dad clued in on what the guy came in for.

[kitkatz]

In the south- Tennessee- it was
Breakfast
Dinner
Supper

I grew up in California
Breakfast
Lunch
Dinner

And of course there is Taco Bell's
4th meal- the meal between dinner and breakfast!

[MooseMom]

A lot of people I come across wonder about my accent...by now, it is this odd combination of Texas and London.  I don't think it's really an odd accent they're hearing, rather, an odd use of some words and intonations.  I never did get rid of "y'all", and I never could bring myself to invite my kid's friends for tea.

I grew up in Texas, and lunch was always lunch, never supper or anything else.  "Dinner" and "supper" were used interchangeably.

It was never "pop" nor "soda"...it was always "Coke" no matter the beverage, as long as it was carbonated.

Never used the word "pudding" even while living in the UK...always "dessert", although I often heard "afters".  Always like "elevenses" but never used it as it would sound weird coming from me.

Agree about "affect/effect".  What bugs me is the misuse of plurals/possessive plurals.

[Poppylicious]

Although the class divide has almost disappeared in the UK since the end of WW2, there is still a residual shadow left in the language.

In my last sojourn in hospital I noticed that the nurses referred to the midday meal as "dinner" whereas the doctors referred to it as "lunch". It seems the two versions of meal times are:
Breakfast / breakfast
Lunch / dinner
Dinner / tea
Supper / supper (if you have any room left  )

I wondered if other English-speaking countries have a similar distinction.

I never thought of this as a class distinction; I thought it was just dependant on where in the UK you came from (in which case, it would be a north/south divide rather than class?)

I have breakfast, lunch and dinner, except on Sundays' when I have breakfast, dinner and tea.  I've never had supper, although Blokey has (raised by a northern mother) and when I lived up north in Sunderland everybody had supper. 

To put it into context I was raised in Suffolk by parents who were both raised in Essex by parents who were all from London/Greater London (all south of Watford).  This is why I always assumed it wasn't about class.

I've never used the word pudding (a northern word?) unless it's actually the name of something - 'Yorkshire pudding' or Bread & Butter pudding'.  Never said dessert either; we always called it 'afters'. 

Do you really think the class divide has nearly disappeared in the UK? I would disagree with that. I think perhaps you are just used to it and do not notice it as much as a foreigner does? Just a thought....

I think that more people here would now call themselves middle-class whereas once they would have called themselves working-class.  Working-class invokes images of work-shy (ironically!) men who spend all day in pubs, and rough council estates; people don't want to be associated with that.  Perhaps the class divide has nearly disappeared here in that respect; we're less likely to consider ourselves as being indistinguishable from someone else due to class.  If you asked me what class I am, I wouldn't have a clue (seriously) but I expect people would be happy to categorise me into what they think I am.

 

[galvo]

You're top class in my book, Poppy!

[Poppylicious]

You're top class in my book, Poppy!

Awww, thanks Galvo!

 

[cariad]

I have a lot to say about this, please don't take it personally, I don't mean it that way. My kids are both half British and we are facing a move back to the UK, so I think about this frequently. If you are devoted to the monarchy, you might want to skip my contribution.

Gwyn sees 'working class' as being akin to what we call 'blue collar' and does not for an instant feel that it indicates being 'work-shy' (His father worked from age 12 delivering coal, his uncle worked in the slate mines as a boy, so that is what he carries into this discussion.) Perhaps the linguistic shift is recent, though, and so he has not been fully exposed to it. Gwyn mentioned a phenomenon that we find increasingly in the US - purposely downgrading your station or origins in order to gain credibility. People claim to be middle or working class when they are not in order to appear to have overcome greater obstacles or to be more populist. It has become a badge of honour to some - Gwyn credits Billy Bragg for making working-class cool, but I am sure it goes further back than that. John Lennon, perhaps?

It seems to me that while you are all writing 'the UK' you are talking about England. England continues with these altars to the over-wealthy and frankly stupidly spoiled with palaces and hereditary titles.  Gwyn says they are a tourist attraction and will never go anywhere, but I consider the royal family to be the original "welfare queens". They are living the high life on the dole. Around here, what gets our knickers in a twist so to speak is the Prince of Wales. It may be pure symbolism, but you cannot argue (at least not to me) that these words and these symbols have no effect. (Resisting urge to write 'affect' in order to get a reaction ) Gwyn and I had a private joke when we lived in England - we would refer to ourselves as 'drones' and to get a laugh from me, Gwyn would toddle off to work chanting 'Right! Feed the queen, feed the queen!'

The fact is, language is politics, language is culture, language is class, language is money (channeling my impassioned linguistics prof here). I have raised two bilingual children (one is becoming trilingual, but he goes to school for that, it does not come entirely from home). My fear is that they will someday see Welsh as beneath English, especially if we end up living in England. I was irritated and sad to talk to the librarian at my older son's school and she reported that she will speak Spanish to kids from Latino families, and they will only answer her in English. There is a lingering stigma. When Gwyn and I were in Wales before kids were an issue, there was an adolescent at a work dog demonstration who was selling something or other as a fundraiser. Gwyn spoke Welsh to her, and the look on her face clearly said 'If it weren't for the fact that I am trying to sell you something, I would not let anyone see me speaking this language.'

I hope that if we do move back, my kids don't see themselves as commoners in the palace or similar. They speak American dialect (obviously) and I fear that they will run up against English snobbery over it. (Sorry! I know it's not everyone, but it is there.)

So, I would say there is more than a 'residual' shadow in both English and the way other national languages are treated in the UK. I researched The Eisteddfod for the linguistics portion of my Anthro study, and the number of articles in English papers complaining that the event was all in Welsh was mind-boggling. What the hell are these people wittering on about?

People often get the wrong idea about me in America based on how I speak. I hate altering my speech around certain people because I feel as though I am condescending, but I do it all the time. (Code-switching) People think I am a total snob, and bizarrely imagine that I am wealthy. I am neither. I grew up in a household that strongly valued education, and my father would correct my grammar from as early as I can remember, so when I speak, I use proper grammar whether it sounds right or not (with a few exceptions). I also have been called out for word usage - the one that sticks in my mind is 'interim'. I was told by someone in his early twenties (I was around the same age) that I was using words he did not understand. (The implication being that I was wrong or showing off). The anti-intellectualism that continues to take hold in America is staggering and terrifying and but one of the many reasons that we are planning to abandon this country for the rest of our lives.

[MooseMom]

Cariad, it saddens me to write this, but if your boys speak with an American accent, I'd really encourage them to lose it asap once you move back to the UK.  As you know, I lived in England for 18 years, and the anti-Americanism I encountered there only grew as time went by.  I never got used to it.  In fact, the longer I was there, the worse I felt, and I eventually left.  My then-husband was British (actually, born in Scotland), my son was born in London, and my friends and acquaintances were English, but I still stuck out like a sore thumb.  The anti-American sentiment was everywhere, particularly in the press.  I always enjoyed reading The Evening Standard...my husband would bring it home from work, but more often than not, he'd tell me to avoid page such and such because he knew there was something there that he knew would make me feel bad.

Once people heard my accent, I'd get quizzed about American foreign policy (as if anyone in the State department clued me in!) or some other such thing.  Do you remember the Louise Woodward case?  Well, as you can imagine, that was a BIG deal in the UK, and I remember being on the bus to Croydon when I overheard two older couples banging on about the inadequacies of the American justice system (ie, there IS no justice in America).  I had endured years of this sort of thing, so on this particular occasion, I actually spoke up and suggested that perhaps they shouldn't make such sweeping judgments.  One of the women apologized and said she knew I was American (how did she know?  Was I wearing a Scarlet A?) and that she had been concerned that I might get angry.  She must have been omniscient.

I doubt that things have changed much in this regard, especially since the world blames the US for the current financial meltdown (tho' they may be right).  I made the mistake of reading the online edition of The Telegraph last night and read Toby Harden's editorial about how Americans are now wishing we had George W Bush back as president because Obama is such a horrible, arrogant loser; I won't even go into the comments that generated, all in agreement.  I remember when Bush was elected; never had I known an American president to be so hated by the British electorate, so I am not sure how anyone there would think we would want Bush back, but it just sort of showed me what sort of new anti-American sentiment might be coming to the fore.

As for the monarchy, every time there is a serious discussion in England about disbanding them, the people's reason to keep them on seems to be more centered around them being a tourist attraction, and I do believe there is truth to that.  The people could do away with the monarchy if they wanted, but they don't.  At least the Queen, et al are now paying taxes.

I am always disappointed when I hear of a language gradually becoming extinct.  As someone who loves the diversity in language, I dislike value judgments being made in this regard.  While code switching happens all the time (if you at least don't instinctively understand the concept of code switching, there is a very good chance you are on the autistic spectrum), I wouldn't like to see it as a way to make any specific language become obsolete.  That would be such a loss.

I agree about the anti-intellectualism in the US; it's as if you have an education and an intellect, you see yourself as being better than everyone else, so there is a push to be seen as "average".  I don't understand the value of being "average" in all things. 

Speaking of bilingual kids, my own son might be autistic, but he could do an American accent like you wouldn't believe.  While he was still in primary and secondary schools, he'd have intensive SALT, and I'd always try to convince him to start speaking with an American accent upon returning to class after a prolonged summer visit to Texas, just to freak out his SAL therapist!   He'd never do it, though.  Interestingly, he refuses to speak in an American accent any more; he has made a permanent code switch, and he has made it consciously because he wants to be British, not American, which does make me sad, I must admit.  I feel like I've been rejected.  I will be very interested to see how your boys code-switch, Cariad, and if you will feel the same way that I do.  It might make you feel relieved, though, seeing as how you intend to "abandon" this country asap (a sentiment I can somewhat understand, sadly).

[Poppylicious]

Gwyn sees 'working class' as being akin to what we call 'blue collar' and does not for an instant feel that it indicates being 'work-shy' (His father worked from age 12 delivering coal, his uncle worked in the slate mines as a boy, so that is what he carries into this discussion.)

Apologies cariad, I in no way meant to imply that being working class equated to being work-shy.  It's just *a* perception that may exist over here now (perhaps only in my pretty little head and fuelled somewhat by certain red-tops.)  My own heritage is staunchly working class (so much so that my very rich great-great grandfather ran off with the parloud maid, giving up his rights to copious amounts of land and 'becoming' working class,) although agricultural and 'arty' rather than mining, which didn't exist in London or East Anglia! As I said, I wouldn't be able to fit myself into a class (this would be for a variety of factors) and to be honest it's not the sort of topic that regularly comes up in conversation; thus I get the impression that people (who generally don't seem to care) just don't seem to think in terms of class anymore.  They may think in terms of rich and poor or north and south (topics which do crop up in conversation,) but that's different to class.

Welsh?  My brother and his partner live in South Wales with their three boys, the youngest of whom was born there. The older boys love teaching me Welsh words (for those who don't know Welsh is compulsory as a subject up to the age of 16 in Wales, regardless of whether the child speaks it at home, was born there or has Welsh parents).  They live in a village which is predominantly full of English families, whose only exposure to the language is road signs and the Welsh homework their children bring home from school. I actually really love the Welsh language and would hate to see it die out.  Blokey considers it a dead language.  I imagine that there are plenty of people who fit into both camps in England.

And you're right, I do often interchange UK/GB with England. It's a bad habit. *slaps wrist*

 

[Poppylicious]

Oh, and if it helps, I think there are many more people who would willingly call some members of the hoity-toity upper classes work-shy.  And in this instance the Upper as a Class does exist because it's so far removed from 'us' (with 'us' encompassing those who may be considered both working and middle class) that it's just ridiculous.  The only difference being that the work-shy in this instance get to go out and play polo all day whilst sipping Champagne and guffawing at the minions.

I can be stereotypical about just about anybody; I'm very fair.

 

[cariad]

Thanks for your thoughts, MM. I must say I never encountered really any anti-American sentiment in the UK. Gwyn doesn't notice it, either, and I suspect it had to do with where you lived. There are a load of Americans in London, and I think like the Arizonans with immigration, it is easy to blame your troubles on 'those other people who don't belong here.' America does tend to be a bit of a cultural bully, at least historically. I was once challenged that "No American can do an English accent, but everyone in the English-speaking world can do an American because of the imported television." OK, of course we have actors who can do a marvelous English, and Catherine Zeta Jones used to have an embarrassingly bad American (she has since dropped her accent altogether and has gone all-in on the American accent). However, they do have a point in that there are more Brits, Aussies, Kiwis, and South Africans (sorry if I'm leaving any one out!) who can do our accents than the other way round.

Yes, my older son can do a perfect Welsh. It's not surprising to me, he does live with it. Louise Woodward was an interesting case to be sure. She should have gone to prison and how you can take the side of someone who murdered (albeit, accidentally) a baby is beyond me, but there you go. Her lawyer (I forget his name, but he worked on the OJ case as well) pulled a legal trick that I cannot believe worked.

I suspect my kids will lose their American accents naturally should we move because they are really too young to make the conscious choice, especially the little guy. I would be thrilled to see them take more pride of ownership in their heritage - if they want to take up the Welsh banner, I would urge them to. They have every right to it. Each of my kids has a 'Welsh' name (their middle names) and my younger boy really resists it. I would hope that he takes it up if we move because I think it is beautiful.

I don't worry about anti-American sentiment for myself, it really does not offend me unless it is just blazingly mean-spirited or rooted in painfully ignorant beliefs (in the latter case, what can you do but shake your head). I got sick of 'where are you from?' (at the post, always at the post!) and I talked to an English woman living in the US and she reported exactly the same fatigue. She said that she just tried to talk as little as possible when she is out and about. 'There is no justice in America' would probably make me laugh, it is such a childish over-reaction to an event that you do not like. My favorite thing in the world is hearing how other countries view my own, so I would not have said anything. People always asked me if I was Irish. Huh? Then again, city accents are generally more subtle, and I remember being really confused in a Dublin pub asking Gwyn Where did all of these Americans come from? Ha, silly me! They were locals.

Taxing the money the royals receive from tax strikes me as stupid. At the very least, out of respect for the celts, eliminate the outrageously insensitive 'prince of Wales' and 'duke of Edinburgh' titles.

Well, MooseMom my dear, I hate to break this to you: The standard statistic in anthropology is that two languages die per week worldwide. Cornish died about 10 years ago in the UK. Welsh really does not fit the definition of a dying language, though, but that is only from 40+ years of concerted effort to keep it alive. It is by far the most successful of the celtic languages. I believe it is now compulsory in the schools there. Yay!

See, again, if some dolt in Britain wants to believe that we all wish we had George Bush back (*shudder*), I cannot stop them from deluding themselves. Obama arrogant? That is anti-intellectualism right there. He is well-spoken and smart and that is obviously not going over too well with some people. A suggestion: stop reading the Tory-graph!

My husband has always talked down about the English in general, yet adores them on an individual scale. History backs him up on the more general criticism and anger. All the Brits (that I encountered there) have a great sense-of-humor about it. One of the cutest, nicest congratulatory notes Gwyn received after we were engaged came from an English friend from work because he felt Gwyn was due for some luck. He wrote "After all, it can't have been easy being Welsh all of these years." Gwyn talks about the 'Bloody English' and 'typical American arrogance' and probably a lot worse, but it is all just in fun. You really could not meet a nicer guy. I used to get a little tired of people in the US who would talk to Gwyn once and fire all of these questions at me about him - they all said the same thing "Your husband is so nice!" My lovely work friend spoke to Gwyn once recently, and I could hear him pouring on the charm. She mentioned that her dad was Irish and I hear Gwyn say "Well, you know, the Welsh are just Irish who can't swim!" No wonder they all love him!

We are on our way to Wales soon, so the kids can finally see 'The Land of Their Father' as I have come to think of it. My older son and I have a whole scheme worked out and we practice at home. They say that the Welsh are really rude if you do not speak Welsh to them. I think like anything else this is a huge exageration. Anyhow, I have instructed Aidan to translate any insults to me immediately. We get Gwyn to portray 'Blodwyn' or 'Bloddy' as I call her, and Aidan and I pretend to try to order, and Gwyn mutters insults in Welsh under his breath and we see if Aidan can translate. Aidan laughs so hard he cannot breath!

Must, must, must clean now.

Hwyl Fawr!

[cariad]

Gwyn sees 'working class' as being akin to what we call 'blue collar' and does not for an instant feel that it indicates being 'work-shy' (His father worked from age 12 delivering coal, his uncle worked in the slate mines as a boy, so that is what he carries into this discussion.)

Apologies cariad, I in no way meant to imply that being working class equated to being work-shy.  It's just *a* perception that may exist over here now (perhaps only in my pretty little head and fuelled somewhat by certain red-tops.)  My own heritage is staunchly working class (so much so that my very rich great-great grandfather ran off with the parloud maid, giving up his rights to copious amounts of land and 'becoming' working class,) although agricultural and 'arty' rather than mining, which didn't exist in London or East Anglia! As I said, I wouldn't be able to fit myself into a class (this would be for a variety of factors) and to be honest it's not the sort of topic that regularly comes up in conversation; thus I get the impression that people (who generally don't seem to care) just don't seem to think in terms of class anymore.  They may think in terms of rich and poor or north and south (topics which do crop up in conversation,) but that's different to class.

Welsh?  My brother and his partner live in South Wales with their three boys, the youngest of whom was born there. The older boys love teaching me Welsh words (for those who don't know Welsh is compulsory as a subject up to the age of 16 in Wales, regardless of whether the child speaks it at home, was born there or has Welsh parents).  They live in a village which is predominantly full of English families, whose only exposure to the language is road signs and the Welsh homework their children bring home from school. I actually really love the Welsh language and would hate to see it die out.  Blokey considers it a dead language.  I imagine that there are plenty of people who fit into both camps in England.

And you're right, I do often interchange UK/GB with England. It's a bad habit. *slaps wrist*

 

Ack, no, no! Please do not apologise!This was exactly my fear, that people would think 'Now she's ticked off at me!' I want to reply further, but Gwyn is about to shout at me if I don't help him tidy up, so I will be back to read what you've written, Poppy! 

[jbeany]

The fact is, language is politics, language is culture, language is class, language is money (channeling my impassioned linguistics prof here).

People often get the wrong idea about me in America based on how I speak. I hate altering my speech around certain people because I feel as though I am condescending, but I do it all the time. (Code-switching) People think I am a total snob, and bizarrely imagine that I am wealthy. I am neither. I grew up in a household that strongly valued education, and my father would correct my grammar from as early as I can remember, so when I speak, I use proper grammar whether it sounds right or not (with a few exceptions). I also have been called out for word usage - the one that sticks in my mind is 'interim'. I was told by someone in his early twenties (I was around the same age) that I was using words he did not understand. (The implication being that I was wrong or showing off). The anti-intellectualism that continues to take hold in America is staggering and terrifying and but one of the many reasons that we are planning to abandon this country for the rest of our lives.

I get to listen to my professors harp on code-switching all the time, although they don't use the term.  I'm attending a business college, and while most of the older students who have been in the work force get it, the traditional teenage students do seem to need constant reminding that the language they use at home and with their friends will not serve them well in the work force.  If you want to switch income levels, you have to switch your speech patterns as well.  You have to speak the language if you want to succeed.  (Of course, at 18, they haven't figured out the concept of dressing in something besides flip-flops and hoodies might be important either.)

The latest "language is power" discussion in class was about the Qantus engine trouble.  I'm studying to be a paralegal, so we were discussing language used by expert witnesses.  I had heard an expert interviewed who described it using the "official" terms - "It suffered Un-contained  engine failure."  Doesn't that sound tidy and clean?  Like the engine came down with a mild case of the sniffles?  So much more neutral than "fireball explosion that ripped half the engine off the plane while it was in midair," isn't it?

And yet, we're walking that fine line between knowing the language, especially the legal terms, and being able to communicate with language to those who can't speak at that level.  There are courses for lawyers on how to "dumb down" (although they don't use that term to describe it) their discourse so that the jury they are talking to actually connects with them.  As paralegal students, we're getting lectures on how part of our job is make sure that the lawyers we work with understand when they are losing touch with the jury because of the language. 

[MooseMom]

Yeah, I know about the death rate of languages...such a shame, isn't it?

I wonder how many nephs can successfully code switch, and are they better at it than lawyers are?

The anti-Americanism I encountered in the UK wasn't quite as in-your-face as the type of sentiment you see in Arizona.  Here are two examples...when I was working in the City, I overheard a conversation between one of our brokers and the head of the accounts dept (both English).  They were discussing the commission one of our American clients, and the head of accounts said, "Well, Americans are interested only in their commission, nothing else."  (She saw that I had overheard and apologized profusely.)

After I had been diagnosed with fsgs, my then-husband approached our GP (without me in attendance) and mentioned that I was leaving for the US soon to visit family, and would it be a good idea for me to get a second opinion while I was there?  He reported back that our GP said, "Well, if she wants to...you know how Americans are.  They think if they just throw money at a problem, it'll go away."  I was really appalled and never again trusted that doctor, which was probably justified because he never really followed up on any renal care for me.

And then there was the infamous Stephen Fry comment that "Americans think in only black and white" during a discussion on how well/poorly British humor travels.

I can't say that I ever bought into the whole "America is a cultural bully" mindset.  I don't think I ever saw anyone in the UK or anywhere have a gun held to his head, forced to eat Big Macs or watch "Friends" or listen to jazz. 

When my son gets into "England is better than America" mode, I remind him that thousands of people every day try to get into this country and that he is lucky to have an American passport simply because his mother is American and that makes him so, too.  I want him to appreciate his American heritage just as you, cariad, want your sons to appreciate their Welsh roots.  It's only natural that we want our children to understand and take pleasure in everything they are.

I have indeed decided never to read the "Tory-graph" again.  I enjoy reading many points of view and have always, like you, gotten a kick out of seeing my country through the eyes of others, whether it be complimentary or not.  But when someone like Toby Harden just starts making crap up, that's when I stop listening.  It just gets scary.



I

[Mizar]

 
 I for One, found this Conversation, quite Interesting. I have been alot of Places, but I have never been over the " Pond " yet.  Inside Info, on another Country and Their, Regional Differences, was my " Humanity Lesson " for the Day.

I wonder if People, not from the US, really know, how many Cultural and Language Differences, there are in the US, from the Northern States, to the Southern States and from the East Coast, to the West Coast.

[cariad]

I can't say that I ever bought into the whole "America is a cultural bully" mindset.  I don't think I ever saw anyone in the UK or anywhere have a gun held to his head, forced to eat Big Macs or watch "Friends" or listen to jazz. 

OK, but I think it is. Culture does not really work on that level, as in oh, look, I'm listening to jazz so I'm becoming American and you reading Shakespeare makes you English. (Gwyn loves Blues, which is fairly American.)  It just seeps into things, so that your thinking shifts. I think this is what people rail against. I have told Gwyn that I do not care if they become less American in the UK, because as I've said to him 'America is inescapable'. I believe it.

And I would agree, actually, that most Americans do only care about their commissions - it is what we are taught to value, which is by definition culture. There is much journal writing about how in America consumerism has replaced culture and community. The argument is hard to refute once you delve into it. When Gwyn was leaving the UK, his friend said "I never thought you were that money-driven" and Gwyn was so upset he phoned me near tears. I don't feel his friend was trying to insult Gwyn, I think he was stating the obvious - Gwyn was leaving a place he loved to more than double his salary. I think his friend was going to miss him and that sadness just came out. In Gwyn's world, people were leaving for the states left and right. He is in automotive, after all. America was beyond a doubt the determining country in that industry, and I say 'was' for obvious reasons. Just because no one holds a gun to shoppers heads to go to Walmart does not mean they are not a corporate and cultural bully, for example. It is not a knock against America, it is just is, and it bothers me even as it fascinates.

Stephen Fry, well, I like him usually - sounds like he had his ego bruised here. That is really part of what I am talking about, though, this need that actors and other people in a position to influence culture have to make it in America. That gives them a status that they feel they do not get in their own country, or so it seems.

When I first met my future in-laws, my future niece was five. Her mother came over to me and said that they were all preparing to meet me, that she even combed her own hair, because 'She thinks you live at Disney World.' What can kids in America with no connection to Britain name that is British? It seeps into people's consciousness. I don't begrudge them their anger or their desire to take potshots at the big guy. But I don't think cultural stereotypes are necessarily disrespectful, just overreaching. The only comment I can really remember that hurt my feelings came from my mother-in-law when she said her sister-in-law (late brother's wife) had no interest in America. Ouch! Harsh!"The opposite of love is not hate but indifference." I couldn't argue it away, either: she had no interest. I think most people back down pretty quickly when they happen upon a person who lives within that culture, because they already are aware deep down that they don't really know what they are talking about. I certainly have my (often ridiculous) stereotypes, too. I became really upset about a horrific murder in the UK years ago and told Gwyn they needed to send the perpetrator over here to be dealt with properly. I really could not handle the thought that he would be sipping tea and exchanging pleasantries in an English prison. Gwyn answered "Cariad [for he really does call me that] I promise you he will suffer plenty in an English prison."

JBeany, that is so fascinating about legal code-switching. I think it beautifully illustrates that people who hold the power get to define the terms and therefore frame the conversation. I discussed an article on another forum with people from the US and Britain, and it was about a British incident where someone died horribly and painfully after surgery. The cause of death was deemed 'misadventure'. The Americans lost their sh-- over that terminology. Sounds like they all went skipping into the forest together and happened upon an evil wizard and their holiday was spoiled, a far cry from "gross medical negligence". And you make an excellent point about, on the one hand, it might be the legal term, but on the other hand, the public needs to understand what is being obfuscated here, and people who are involved in cases need to be able to fully understand how they are being represented. (I learned this the difficult and expensive way!) I had no idea being a paralegal was so damn fascinating. I have always been interested in law, even took the LSAT recently (and once in my 20s) and have toyed with the idea of going for my law degree, but do not want to take on that kind of debt right now. I love hearing about your studies!

I am uncomfortable with code switching when it is to talk "at someone's level" becomes it makes me feel like I am making quite the assumption about them. When I first met my Michigan doctor, a german, he used the term 'nephrotoxic' with me and I just wanted to blurt out 'I love you!' He spoke so elegantly and I would have hated to see him change his speech for me because he thought I couldn't keep up.

Poppy, now that we know that you have Welsh relations, and most especially that you have taken an interest in Welsh words, you will undoubtedly be thrilled to hear that your posts and thoughts have taken on a new importance in this house. Anyone who respects Welsh, especially an English woman, is all right with us. I did fully understand that you were not saying that 'working class' *was* equal to work-shy, just perceived in that way. Perhaps Gwyn is still stuck in the UK past in that way. Here, we used to say 'lower class' and that has been replaced with 'blue collar' and 'working poor'. Both of those are interesting because they both center around job status, whereas 'lower class' encompasses more people, but it has more of a derogatory sound to me. Sarah flipping Palin has brought the term 'elites' to the fore, but the way she classifies it, anyone who has read a book, stepped into a classroom, or written an honest article about her qualifies. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with income, just trying to make education sound like a liability, which we so do not need in this country right now.

Whew! I am tired. Sorry to go on, I could write about this topic all night!

[MooseMom]

Cariad, for how long did you live in the UK?

[Bruno]

I don't believe there is a class divide in Australia, with the amount of immigrants we've had over the 60 years it's hard enough keeping up with all the new cultures and ways of doing things but I think we've managed to handle it and keep an Australian identity. 
I've always seen class as an English oddity and been puzzled by it. My personal view is it occurs because of the embedded biases in their system...a House of Lords is their government's upper house...a hereditary system of Dukes, Earls and suchlike doesn't help.
I think these days we are closer to Americans than anyone else, certainly they are for me.
For us Aussies its
Breakfast
Lunch
Dinner...(when I was very young it was called Tea)
Supper is something latish at night...a light snack before retiring.   

[Des]

We have a great mix of languages.   We use english to communicate with everyone. We tend to mix our languages alot. This is very sad as we loose our language (Afrikaans).

We drink coldrink (but we pronounce it cool-drink)

We (SA)

Have breakfast, lunch, supper/dinner (here it is the same thing)

(We call a traffic light  a robot. )

Certain classes have diffirent accents here as well...... as schooling goes hand in hand with class.

I fall into the middle class..... heheheh  Not rich not poor.

D

[MooseMom]

Here's an article from today's web edition of The Independent which you linguists out there might find of interest...

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/language-erosion-you-dont-hear-that-often-2134915.html

linquistic evolutionary theory...how cool is that???

[galvo]

Tres cool, Mum, tres cool!