Foyle's War

[MooseMom]

Anybody seen this series?  I know it has been shown as part of the "Masterpiece Mystery" series on PBS here in the US, but I never had the chance to see it.  So, I've put it on my Netflix queue and have finished the first season and am well into the second.  It makes for truly fascinating television, and I wonder what those of you who have seen it think of it?  Just when you think an episode is over and the mystery has been solved, there is always this last little surprise at the very end.  It's so rare to be surprised by a film/TV show these days.

[galvo]

Yes. I reckon it's a delightful show. We've just had the latest series start here in Oz. It is set in a fascinating time, and the characterisations are great.

[Henry P Snicklesnorter]

.

[MooseMom]

Great series. The Poms do TV drama .... and comedy .... better than anyone.

Yes, particularly period drama.  I never really watched any of that stuff until I saw a review of "Cranford".  I liked the cast and decided to give it a try...my first TV British costume drama, and I loved it.  Understated by filled with gob-smacking drama, which is a combination not easily well-pulled off.  The Brits also are masters at nature documentaries.  We septics seem to be best at gloss...

[Ken Shelmerdine]

Followed every series. A very well acted drama. Honysuckle Weeks pulls of the reserved immaculately mannered English Rose type character of that time absolutely superbly.

[monrein]

Caught a bit of an episode recently...not watching much TV lately...but I agree that the Brits do the best TV stuff out there. 

[cariad]

Ack, I am having flashbacks to long-ago arguments with the relations.

Americans pump out more sheer volume, and I think the percentage of crap is higher here, but if one compares the truly marvelous programs between British and American television, it's a draw. (This is the truce that Gwyn and I arrived at, anyhow.) Most drama seems to ring false to me on television - not sure why this is, but as a result I don't often watch those. In comedy, at present, I don't think there is really anyone in the world better, or braver, than Stephen Colbert. Sacha Baron Cohen appeared around the same time with a similar angle, but he does not seem to know how to adapt to the fact that most people recognize him now. Stephen Colbert makes it work whether his interviewee knows he is doing satire or not.

I spent years working in the arts (theatre, but the overlap between television, film, and theatre is obviously high) and feel that Americans do as fine a job as any. I've seen some true garbage come out of Britain, and become (overly?) defensive when I hear the very common assertion that they are superior. Perhaps it triggers memories of all the conversations I've had with Brits who honestly believe that all Americans are uneducated, ill-mannered, and boring. (I cannot comment on Australian or any other English-speaking television because I simply don't know enough about it.)

We had Foyle's War on the DVR but lost everything on there when we switched television providers. Never saw it, but if it returns to PBS I'll certainly check it out, given the high praise I'm reading here.

[MooseMom]

Oh cariad, don't get me started!  I lived in the UK for 18 years, so I am extremely well acquainted with the British view that "Americans have no history/culture" and actually celebrate that "fact".  Yes, I did in fact hear that. I could write a book about the inferiority/superiority complex that swirls about in the Anglo-American relationship. I distinctly remember seeing a discussion on the BBC about comedy and how it can/cannot translate into other cultures.  Stephen Fry (who I always liked) said that when it comes to comedy, Americans think only in black and white and miss the grey tones.  What a load of old rubbish!  And Fry has just written a book about his travels to each of the US states that is, by and large, complimentary.  So I can only think that he has become a bit more evolved in his thinking.  And OMG, the Brits have their own brand of rubbish, believe me.  And if American telly was so awful, then why do they have so much of it on their networks? 

Sacha Baron Cohen has been around for a lot longer than most Americans realize, and his Ali G was often inspired.  Colbert is must-see TV in my household.  There is some fine American product on TV these days.  I try never to miss Justified, The United States of Tara, and I do enjoy The Middle and particularly Modern Family.  I appreciate good writing, and good writing knows no national boundaries.

Do see Foyle's War, though, cariad, if you can.  Since I get it via Netflix, it's available on DVD and shouldn't be impossible to get ahold of.  Maybe your local library has it?

[cariad]

Yes, it's infuriating, really. I had a Scottish man say to me that being around Americans was like watching paint dry. OK, I love this man, he is such a doll, but where did that come from? Then, some time later I made a joke about traditional Welsh clog dancing (which makes me laugh just typing) and the same Scot turned to me and said "You better watch that kind of humor." When Gwyn and I got back home, I said "Gwyn, come on. CLOG DANCING??!!"

Ali G and Stephen Colbert (on the Daily Show back then) both found their voice at around the same time - late 1990s. When Gwyn and I were trapped in Basildon for 3 months (an episode best forgotten) we used to watch Ali G, mostly through our fingers as we seem to have a low tolerance for embarrassment, even in others.  Sacha Baron Cohen is brilliant, and I do mean that literally. He has a fascination with America, as is evidenced I believe by his masters in American history, but it's a dark fascination. He finds just the right way to scratch the surface and get people to proudly display their bigotry. I think it's vitally important work. As Edward Albee (an American, I hasten to add) says "The purpose of an artist is to hold a mirror to the world and say 'This is who you are. If you don't like it, change it.'"

Never saw him when he brought Ali G to America - I have been disappointed before. Graham Norton was always my fave, but he did an American show and it just didn't work.

One of the best theatrical experiences I had, as an audience member, was going to the Edinburgh Fringe. I nearly fainted when Gwyn said he had never been ("Wha...? Who...? Where am I....?) There was a show there, and I don't remember the title, but it was put on by an American group and the description read "Come experience the pride in the shame of being American." Oh, I think I really needed to see that show then, but the players had to leave Scotland early so their run was cut short. Still, I got to see Brits put on some obscure Tennessee Williams (the hero of my adolesence), some wonderful English stand-up, a low-rent comedy we still quote today called "Englishman, Irishman, Welshman", a Hungarian musical, and on and on. The spirit of the Fringe is delightful as it really encourages non-judgmental exploration of other cultures. There are Fringes all over America, but none close enough to me. 

Stephen Fry - Well, he's refreshingly himself. I read a few of his books a million years ago. He claimed there was nothing like the miracle of Radio 4 in America. It made me feel sorry for him, having that written down for eternity, since any American that reads it is going to be crying "NPR! NPR, you twit!"  He has a program on now, we just saw it a few months back - travels through America and finds some really interesting stories. Though I think it's safe to say that most of the people he meets in the process don't really get him, and it's written across their faces.

Oh my, I don't actually recognize most of those programs you mentioned, even by title. I am not really into anything at the moment, aside from Stephen Colbert, and The Daily Show has its moments of genius, though I don't especially like him (Jon Stewart). I've spent so much time in front of the television these past few months, it's just as well - I'm enjoying the break.

Good idea on the library - I'll have a look.

[MooseMom]

Just a spot of trivia...Sacha Baron Cohen has a cousin, Simon Baron Cohen, who is my hero.  He has developed the concept of "theory of mind" to help explain some of the triad of impairments in those with autism.  My son is high-functioning autistic, and Simon Baron Cohen's work in this regard has, in my view, lain down the foundation in working toward helping those with autism understand the emotions and actions of others (and that emotions and actions by others even exist).
I never really saw Ali G in America, either.  I was in the UK from  1985-2003, so I didn't discover Colbert until he had his own show.  I loved Graham Norton and still watch his show on BBCAmerica; it's delayed by only a day, maybe less.  I like his idea of having all of his guests together to be interviewed at the same time.  I particularly like watching American "stars" interact with British domestic celebrities...you get some of the most interesting combinations.  I hear he is taking over from Jonathan Ross on the radio but probably not on his Friday night TV show.  Maybe some of the British IHDers can clarify.
I never got to the Edinburgh Festival!  Boooo!
I read Stephen Fry's book about his American tour after seeing him as the only interviewee one night on Craig Ferguson.  I didn't see his TV show, but I can imagine the reaction of some of the Americans he came across!
Did you ever catch "One Foot in the Grave"?  Oh, I loved that show, so much that I have since bought all of the DVDs; I had to wait a long time for them to come out in PAL or whatever the US DVD systgem is.  That show could make you laugh and then cry within a nanosecond.

[monrein]

There may be a difference for those of us who haven't lived in the UK and been exposed to all of the crap on the telly there.  Presumably the stuff that gets "exported" is the better stuff.

In general though, TV often seems to aim quite low and underestimate what many people might actually prefer to see.

[cariad]

MM, my husband loved One Foot in the Grave and said from day one that my father reminded him of that character. I think I've seen it once or twice - PBS shows that sort of thing - but honestly don't remember it. I have little sense of humor about my father and his anger issues, so maybe I need to watch it so that I can just laugh it all off like Gwyn does. My favorite British show has to be Black Adder.

I had heard that Sacha Baron Cohen's cousin was a big deal in the autism research world. I studied autism a bit in school and certainly have heard the term theory of mind. I will have to see if I can find an article of his. Advancing the field is a sign of genius.

Stephen Colbert was on The Daily Show, which was shown in England but you would have had to catch the short bits he would do. I really only took notice of him when he got his own show and did his legendary speech at the White House Correspondents Dinner. (Available freely over the Internet, if anyone has not seen it. You don't have to know much about American politics, just the general tenor of the Bush administration.)

Monrein, good point. The painful shows that are created here barely see the light of day on native soil, let alone go abroad. I'm sure the same is true for all other countries.

Sorry - afraid I took us a long way from Foyle's War.

[natnnnat]

These seem to be his two most cited publications:

Baron-Cohen, S., Leslie, A.M. & Frith, U. 1985, 'Does the autistic child have a "theory of mind" ?', Cognition, vol. 21, no. 1, pp. 37-46.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T24-49SGXHT-3&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F31%2F1985&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1350921889&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8c0599e1badebb824a9d724345698c15

Mindblindness: an essay on autism and theory of mind (which is actually a book)
http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&lr=&id=MDbcNu9zYZAC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=Simon+Baron+Cohen+autism&ots=Zv2HsKVBay&sig=wh6xa6oq_BtJ-KGU3ugA_qbLtw4#v=onepage&q&f=false

[murf]

This discussion about "Foyle's War" got me thinking about the best TV I have seen in my time. So here goes in some sort of order:
1. I Claudius
2. House of Cards
3. Foyle's War
4. The Dismissal
5. Bodyline
All from the UK except the last two which are Australian

[cariad]

Hey, natnnat, that was incredibly thoughtful of you. Thank you! I will look for free access to the article over the Internet. I read your introduction and am away to reply, so please meet me there.

Murf, that's an interesting list. My husband loved I Claudius. Every time I mention that I just do not like that Derek Jacoby, he mentions I Claudius. Hmmmm, never seen it, but if it can get me to like that actor, it must have something. (I love Dickens, and I thought he butchered The Old Curiosity Shop. Sorry, I know he has many fans, please form an orderly line to insult my tastes. ) You seem to like mini-series. Those have fallen out of fashion here (must be the expense), but a few that were wildly popular: Roots, Shogun, Lonesome Dove. I've not seen a one, but did you get any of those over in Oz?

[murf]

Cariad, you are right. I do really love miniseries. But unfortunately, they have gone in favor of the dreaded reality shows. I also agree with you about some honorable American shows as Roots and Holocaust.

[Hemodoc]

Great series.  We have them all.  As far as American vs British movies/TV, I get quite tired of vulgar language in almost every American production.  The only place we have found with the absence of vulgarity and at the same time entertaining story lines is the British movies.  Our favorite series is Sherlock Holmes with Jeremy Brett.  Nothing better.  My wife recently watched Cranford.  Not a singe cuss word in hours and hours of taping as well as story lines that make you think a little bit for yourself.  There are from time to time good American productions, but the British have it the majority of the time.

[MooseMom]

I have tried and tried to enjoy Jeremy Brett's Holmes (my husband loves him), but there is something so self-absorbed and creepy about him that sends me screaming into the night.  Can't really explain it.  (Same with David Suchet's Poirot...the personification of "smug")  I hate to admit that I never saw I, Claudius; I know it is a landmark series.  I remember the first time I saw Derek Jacoby; I had just moved to England and saw him on TV in "Mr. Pye" (he being Mr. Pye).  Mr. Pye was really an angel (wings and all) and was trying to escape that fact by running away to the Channel Island of Sark.  It was all rather charming.  Hemodoc, I so agree with you about the vulgar language so prevalent today.  It's not so much the vulgarity as it is the boring repetition.  If you're watching something and every other word was "awesome", you'd not be impressed with the writing, and the same holds true with other words.  The appeal of Cranford is that there is this underlying tempest belied by a topsheen of tranquility and propriety.  Change can be at the same time agonizing and exhilarating whether you are in the 19th century or the 21st.     I recently saw a UK series on BBCAmerica called "The Street" which I loved, but I missed an ep or two and am trying to find it on DVD, but no joy just yet.

I have read the word of Baron-Cohen and Uta Frith, and I have a copy of "Mindblindness" somewhere around here.  I'll have to go find it.

Colbert at the WHC dinner is legendary.

What a fun discussion!

[Hemodoc]

I conversed with a man from England a couple of years back on a different blog and they truly have a much different cultural setting than here in America.  They still share a very real sense of community and get together for music, plays and other forms of public entertainment at the village level quite often.  We have really lost that here in America and I do believe it is reflected in our movies and TV as well.  Jeremy Brett is a little creepy as you say.  I saw an interview with him a while back where even he admitted it was difficult at times to play the character because it was quite different than his upbeat personality.  What I enjoy about the British movies in general is you have to be engaged in the story and follow along with a little bit of gray matter involved.  Visual stimulation appears to be the theme of most American movies and TV.  Not much gray matter involved in most of what is out there from Hollywood.

[MooseMom]

Visual stimulation appears to be the theme of most American movies and TV.  Not much gray matter involved in most of what is out there from Hollywood.

What I find I really enjoy about British shows (and other non-American shows) is that for the most part, the actors are fairly ordinary looking.  There isn't a lot of glitter and glam, and you find the cast including characters of all ages.  In the US, if you are a woman over the age of 45, you are practically invisible unless you have a team of stylists living under your roof.  I guess we are no longer "visually stimulating", so it feels like everyone on the screen in the US is the same age.  That's the reason I never watched "Lost"...I thought it was rather odd that the survivors all happened to be the same age.   But I don't want to be a snob.  I think there is some good American TV/filmmaking out there, and I don't want to fall into the trap of surmising that a British accent makes you smart and an American one makes you dense.

My big bugbear is violence as entertainment, especially when the victims always seem to be blonde, young and scantily clad...and of course, female.  I've never really understood why a sex scene is more problematic with viewers than a scene where a woman has been enviscerated by a chainsaw, but, well, that's just me.

[murf]

I agree that Jeremy Betts is rather creepy in his portrayal of Sherlock Homes but the great detective was rather creepy. He is a misogynistic self absorbed drug addict. I think it is the closest to Conan Doyle's original perception, far better that Basil Rathbone. Also love Cranford and Larks Rising. My sister swears that The West Wing is the best TV she has seen but couldn't get into it.

[natnnnat]

I love love love Foyle, he's my hero.  Edge of Darkness (the BBC series) was great.  In terms of American TV, I've been vicariously watching The Sopranos, Gregory watches it while I'm doing something else.  I think its good... I love watching the big mobster trying to deal with familiy issues and counselling.  And not all the characters are beautiful, though some are.  There is a lot of swearing though. 

[MooseMom]

I don't know "Edge of Darkness"...I'll have to check it out!

[Poppylicious]

I've never seen Foyle's War.  It's on ITV and I'm a bit of a snob.  I make little apology for this.

As a UKian I was brought up on a diet of American tellybox shows.  I learnt all I need to know about America from The Red Hand Gang, The Dukes of Hazzard, The Fall Guy, Wonder Woman, Anne of Green Gables, Huckleberry Finn, The Waltons and CHiPs, amongst others.  Both America and the UK make decent programmes, and we both also make some complete crap.  But it's all subjective anyway. If I like something, I'll watch it.  I do prefer British comedy, but that's because I'm British so I can relate to it better. 

One of the main differences between our shows is that we tend to make a short series (about six episodes) and America embeds itself for the long-haul (twenty-four episodes) so when one of our shows gets cancelled after three series' it seems to have had a long-shelf life, whilst something like FlashForward gets cancelled after one season and it feels like it's only just getting started! 

The best thing to come out of Britain recently was Life on Mars/Ashes to Ashes ... if you get the chance, watch them!  But don't confuse the American Life on Mars (which lacked oompf) with the British version, which was far superior.  I say that safe in the knowledge that you will agree with me. 

 

[Ken Shelmerdine]

We get various levels of low budget crap from either side of the pond but I have to say that after visiting the USA and Canada a number of times many years ago I felt that the quality of programming on American and Canadian TV was appalling. All  those channels (we only had 5 then in the UK) mainly full of trivia and low budget B movies and 'reality' shows. TV series wishy characters with no depth (mainly playing themselves as far as I could tell) and very weak storylines. Yes the word drama was definitely missing!

Fast forward to to-day with our multi channel selection Sky TV and freeview channels and we now have the same garbage beamed into our home incessantly. There is a channel which shows CSI Crime Scene CSI Miami CSI New York NCIS for the whole evening on most nights. I think that any one who watches these programmers with their totally gratuitous camera shots of dead bodies usually butchered in the most gruesome fashion on a regular basis have voyeristic unhealthy morbid curiosity. The fact that this is peak time viewing on this particular channel so therefore must attract a large audience tells you a lot about the unhealthy mentality prevailing in the UK. For all these viewers care they may as well just show the death and mutilation shots and to hell with the storyline which usually is so lacking in substance its almost meaningless.

The obsession with action films. I find most of today's action films UK and American unwatchable. Why do we have to have these ridiculously fast camera cuts and wobbly hand held cameras where as soon as your eyes settle on one cut then in comes another and another every split second to say nothing of the usually bad sound quality where we are supposed to understand an 'actor' whose mumbling something so indistinct that the background music drowns it out anyway. I don't know who the directors and producers think they are entertaining accept their own self indulgence.

Thank heaven for the BBC which is where the best quality drama is still produced (although Foyle's war did come from a commercial channel.) You can also sit and watch any of the four BBC channels all night and never see one commercial break.