Is Someone Buying or Selling a Kidney?

[okarol]

Member "woaixiaolang" banned: Unauthorized soliticitation via members email to promote transplant tourism

okarol/admin

[sgcline]

I received the China email last week too.  I deleted it.

[okarol]

Just a reminder - let us know if you are contacted by anyone offering to sell organs. If a member is using PM's or emails gathered here we will ban them from the forum.
 
okarol/admin

[HouseOfDialysis]

I don't see a problem with having incentives for living donation, be it money or whatever else. That said, like those cases in Pakistan, India, etc. where out of desperation, these folks sell their kidneys for what they think is $3,000 or $5,000... They wind up getting $600, if they are lucky. One special I saw, a mother sold one for $3,000, her middle man took $2400 for "expenses" and now her son is in renal failure and she can't donate to him.

If I have the means, I have no qualms about benefiting someone who is a perfect match for living donation, provided they understand the risk involved. Death is a possibility in any undertaking. Be it when I go skydiving this summer or someone donating a kidney. If they are willing to step up, so am I.

[WfMonkey]

At this point I'd sell both of mine for a big glass of potassium laden orange juice and a chocolate bar...they aren't much use for making urine but they might make a nice steak and kidney pie!

[survivor]

I am not sure how many of you have read this news item

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13639934

It is sad to  notice that people are very gullible. 

I remember one instance, in India, when I was visiting my doc, 12 yrs ago, a guy waiting in the clinic to donate his kidney ( rather sell his kidney) for 1 lakh indian rs, which was around $2800 then.  Right now,the law is very strict in Asian countries. But , then, there was a broker walking around the hospital premises, who used to get " donors" and match them with patients. Awful, I understand . But, it was almost a norm then. Lot of things happened, the patients met with the potential donors, signed a form saying they are related and got transplanted. Things have changed now. Luckily, my mother was a perfect match for me and donated one. Retrospectively, I am not sure, what I would have done otherwise, in desperation. I was 21. My parents might have gone through the other path, to save their child.

[DialysisGoneFOREVER]

My kidneys are broken and damaged so no one would want to buy mine! 

But it's not my fault since I have IGA nephropathy! 

[Simon Dog]

If there were an unregulated market in kidneys from living donors it would be hard to try to prevent the commercialization of cadaveric kidneys.  Families would attach a price tag to the kidneys of their deceased kin and only the wealthy would get transplants.

Everyone could get the deceased donor kidneys if there was a flat rate, paid by insurance. But then maybe a family would start bumping off dispensable cousins.... that might be a problem.

Of greater concern would be families lying about the health and/or lifestyle history of the donor in order to assure a sale of the product.

A better approach would be to have a master registry and give everyone one year of "credit" for each year they list themselves on the cadaver donor list (without any filtering as to suitability to discourage lying).   When you need a part, the number of year you have as a percentage of your "adult age of consent eligible years where you could have signed up for the registry" would be a significant factor in your place on the list.

My guess is this would encourage more donors.  As it stands now, there are plenty of people who would never consent to have their body mutilated before it decomposes, but will gladly accept a donated part if they are the one in need.

I haven't signed up for the list yet, however, it is annoying to think that if I go that route I my history of having signed the donor card, and indicated this to my next of kin ever since age 18, makes me no different than a "don't touch my corpse" person.

[DialysisGoneFOREVER]

Simon, there should be some REGULATED compensation with a MAXIMUM CAP of $5000 or $6000 if you donated a kidney. It would cost around 500 million dollars which a billionaire like Bloomberg or Gates could easily afford!

Imagine the waiting list going from 92,000 to under 10,000? IF there was REGULATED compensation it could!

[Simon Dog]

If $5-$6K would do it, let those who can afford pay.  Those who believe in "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" would be offended it isn't "fair", but even those not paying would benefit from reduced stress on the list.

[DialysisGoneFOREVER]

If $5-$6K would do it, let those who can afford pay.  Those who believe in "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" would be offended it isn't "fair", but even those not paying would benefit from reduced stress on the list.

The point is to have a CAP so people can't abuse the system. One of my dialysis nurses joked with me that he want $7 million for his kidney! That's insane but 5 to 10 thousand is ok of course there must be a cap and be regulated!

[okarol]

If there's money on the table, do you think some people might lie about their family health history? Or their drug use or other risky behaviors? Do you think a pimp might force a prostitute to go cash in her kidney? Or maybe a desperate spouse might pressure their husband or wife to donate? I don't really know, but these are things we should talk about.

[DialysisGoneFOREVER]

If there's money on the table, do you think some people might lie about their family health history? Or their drug use or other risky behaviors? Do you think a pimp might force a prostitute to go cash in her kidney? Or maybe a desperate spouse might pressure their husband or wife to donate? I don't really know, but these are things we should talk about.

Good point but they thoroughly test a kidney and donor out before approving them. I'm just saying it's very hard to get someone to donate if they get NOTHING in return!

Many of us have tried getting it from a stranger with no luck! If a small amount of compensation was offered you could bring the list down to almost ZERO!

[okarol]

Our daughter was given a kidney by a stranger we met through Living Donors Online. It is failing now so we've posted on facebook too. There are so many living donors who want nothing in return.

There are some tax benefits in the US:

Financing Living Donation /  Legislation

Federal Legislation

Federal employees receive 30 days paid leave for organ donation, in addition to their sick and annual leave (HR 457).

State Legislation

Many states have passed laws that makes it easier to become a living donor by providing time off for state and/or private sector employees. Some states also offer tax deductions or credits for travel expenses and time away from work. And in other states, legislation has only been introduced, but not signed into law.

For more info go to http://www.transplantliving.org/living-donation/financing-living-donation/legislation/

[DialysisGoneFOREVER]

I wish they'd hurry up with bio-artificial kidneys or stem cell derived kidneys so we don't have to go through this!

[CebuShan]

I have a friend (a nurse, no less!) who told me to advertise to buy a kidney overseas! I told her that I couldn't do that, it was illegal! She replied "No one would ever know."
I was flabbergasted!

[geoffcamp]

Yea I remember Mitch. I hope that jerk is in jail. He was so pushy and obnoxious I could not stand it. One of the reasons I kinda faded away from here!!  I was glad to see nothing like that seems to be happening any longer. On lighter side I wonder if we could offer a green card for a donation. Just kidding no I'm not. Yea I am. LOL

[DialysisGoneFOREVER]

Our daughter was given a kidney by a stranger we met through Living Donors Online. It is failing now so we've posted on facebook too. There are so many living donors who want nothing in return.

Karol, I really don't think there are "so many" otherwise you wouldn't have 90,000+ people on the list in a nation of 310 million people. You realize if less than 1 in 1000 peope donated the list would be wiped out?

No doubt there are altruistic donors out there but it's still very hard to find someone like that. Look at the thread where our own family members won't even get tested!

And why do you spell Karol instead of Carol? 

[okarol]

Our daughter was given a kidney by a stranger we met through Living Donors Online. It is failing now so we've posted on facebook too. There are so many living donors who want nothing in return.

Karol, I really don't think there are "so many" otherwise you wouldn't have 90,000+ people on the list in a nation of 310 million people. You realize if less than 1 in 1000 peope donated the list would be wiped out?

No doubt there are altruistic donors out there but it's still very hard to find someone like that. Look at the thread where our own family members won't even get tested!

And why do you spell Karol instead of Carol? 

1. I mean that there are many people who donate to strangers, asking nothing in return. It's a huge thing to do and not everyone is willing to take the risks.


2. Agree, it takes effort to find someone. They are not going to just knock on your door and offer. Many people just do not know how many people are waiting for an organ transplant. It's our job to tell our stories, get the word out. And I personally think it's a waste of time to hold on to resentments about family not getting tested. If they don't offer, forget it.

3. That's what my parents named me.

[Zach]

3. That's what my parents named me.

 

[DialysisGoneFOREVER]

Karol, that's fine but I just thought it's spelled Carol not Karol. 

As far as the risks go for kidney donation they are miniscule IF the person is healthy. Even deaths from living liver donation are quite rare and make national news when they happen.
I saw a story on Dateline NBC last year of a guy who died after donating a liver to his bro but I think he died of cardiac arrest so it had nothing to do with the liver.

[BigJess]

Darn it, I was looking forward to sellin my old transplanted kidneys...  They were both infected so I thought I'd offer a discount.  lol j/k   

[NDXUFan]

Take it easy for buying and selling kidneys. If more than half of patients do buying, I would get my kidney very soon.  So we, patients on the waiting list, are benefiting from this. Whether this law itself is moral or not is debable. This law is making more patients die each day.

My wife is Filipino and it would have been very easy to by a kidney with my connections to the Phillipines which I would never do.  I find it absolutely reprehensible that renal disease is now becoming an excuse for a new colonial behavior in the western world.  This is most especially true when we consider that daily dialysis has equal survival to cadaveric transplant.  The only manner in which to keep the facade of morality of selling organs is to ignore that proven fact.  I will live or die with my renal disease but I will not enslave another human being by virtue of the wealth I have to escape it.  Anyone that spends even a modicum of time on the plight of the poor that become organ vendors in Pakistan and other parts of the world would not view it as anything but an evil act of greed upon them by merchants treating them as a commodity.  DSEN has many posts discussing the moral and ethical and medical reasons why this should never be allowed in this nation. 

http://www.billpeckham.com/from_the_sharp_end_of_the/2008/08/most-iranian-pa.html

I applaud IHD and Okarol for her stand to maintain the standards of IHD.

Yes, the dialysis industry hides their hypocrisy behind the poor.  The wailing and whining about the Western powers is more popular nonsense.  Slavery has been going on since the beginning of time.  The first slaves were from Eastern Europe, hence the name for Slave comes from the word, Slav.  To make a very, very long story short, the Western powers were the ones to stop slavery, because they had the military power to enforce the prohibition of slavery.  In addition, many issues or problems from the African continent are from conditions of geography, not anyone or thing from Europe. 

Stanford Economist Sowell: 

"Sub-Saharan Africa has some of the most tragic geographic handicaps of any region of the world. Navigable waterways, which have been crucial to the development of nations and of cultures, are severely limited in most of Africa. Poor soil and inadequate and undependable rainfall patterns shrink the possibilities still further.

 Ideologues love to think of African poverty as caused by "exploitation" on the part of Western countries. But, with a few notable exceptions, Africa has had little to be exploited. Even at the height of European imperialism, there was far less foreign trade or foreign investment in the whole vast continent of Africa than in a little country like Belgium or Switzerland."

[NDXUFan]

I am curious, in how many of the individuals who wrote the Organ law, would be willing to live that way themselves? Think of it this way: 

This is one of my old essays: 

One of the main reasons that I am for the selling of kidneys for transplants, is that it would eliminate the shortage of kidneys. Think of it this way, private profits and socialized losses. In other words, in the bank bailout of 2007-2008, taxpayers bail out Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with private banks. Yet, those institutions are allowed to keep their profits while the taxpayer picks up the loss. In a kidney transplant, hospitals will examine your wallet before giving you or anyone else, a transplant. This enables the hospital to make a big profit and keep that profit. However, who is paying for the loss of the kidney, the taxpayer or Medicare. In other words, as in the banking situation, it is private profit and socialized loss.

I am curious, why is the hospital allowed to profit, while the donor is not? Does the hospital know about the needs or situation of the donor, I seriously doubt it. Does anyone believe with almost 100,000 individuals needing a kidney on a list, that this policy is doing a good job of meeting the needs of the individuals on the kidney transplant list??? Actually, you have less than a 30% percent chance of receiving a kidney transplant from the list. In other words, just a fortunate few are receiving transplants from that list, is that any better than rich people receiving transplants because they have money? Clearly, this transplant policy is not working, only a fortunate few are receiving transplants. The same people that complain about the fortunate few rich people receiving transplants are silent when only a fortunate few on the transplant list receive their transplants.

I hear people talking about "greed." When you work at a job, do you insist on being paid? Do you work for free without monetary compensation? If you insist being paid any monetary amount, you are "greedy." Do you think Hitler rewarded virtue? Do you think the Soviet Communist Party rewarded virtue? The Soviet Communist Party shopped at special stores, while the majority of people waited hours in line for basic food items. In kidney transplants, it is not any different. The hospital and the fortunate few who receive kidney transplants are shopping at the special store, while the vast majority of kidney patients are suffering and waiting with inadequate dialysis treatments, suffering from raging thirst, malnutrition, and feeling washed out and hopeless. They have to listen loud and moralizing lectures from individuals who have been catered to at the special store. The individuals who have been catered to a the special store insist that they as a third party know what is best for them, not allowing them to make their own decisions. The catered people would never, ever allow third parties to make life altering decisions for them or their freedoms. As long as they have their freedom and they are not living the way that they demand of masses, what do they care?

Ladies and Gentlemen, you are being scammed.

[NDXUFan]

Simon, there should be some REGULATED compensation with a MAXIMUM CAP of $5000 or $6000 if you donated a kidney. It would cost around 500 million dollars which a billionaire like Bloomberg or Gates could easily afford!

Imagine the waiting list going from 92,000 to under 10,000? IF there was REGULATED compensation it could!

Regulation=cost.  So you would like to regulate to drive the costs of kidney donation even higher?