Transplant Surgery abroad is not the same in every country

[stauffenberg]

Mallory, there are two classes of scientific journals -- those which are peer-reviewed, where all articles have to be read by teams of the leading experts in the relevant field and are accepted or rejected by majority vote, often after the review committee has required the author to make revisions and study certain issues in more depth, and those which are not peer-reviewed.  If a well-researched, well-argued scientific article by someone with a doctoral degree appears in a well-known but not peer-reviewed publication, the scientific community would still regard it as worthless, and no treatment of a patient, no accepted truths of the discipline, would be changed on the basis of it.  But the New Internationalist and the Berkeley Education News are not even up to the level of a scientific journal, since they are just newsy publications, regardless of whether a university publishes them or not.

Similarly, the author by whom you seem to set so much store IS NOT EVEN A MEDICAL DOCTOR, so her opinion on the medical effects of a person donating a kidney are utterly worthless.  She holds a Ph.D. in anthropology, which makes her an expert at fitting bits of clay pottery together when they are found in the bottom of an old cave and inferring from that how the humans who lived there probably lived, but which means she has no credentials establishing her expertise in medical matters at all.  In contrast, the study I quoted showing that kidney donors have a longer than normal life expectancy and suffer no medical problems beyond the average population is authored by four medical doctors, three of whom are nephrologists and one of whom is a renal transplant surgoen, and one epidemiologist.

The fact that all kidney donors in the Philippines have to be vetted by a hospital committee consisting of a nephrologist, a priest, and a psychiatrist leads me to believe that no donor would be approved to proceed to removal of the kidney if these people, who know the local social and economic circumstances quite well, if things were as some American anthropologist imagines.  Certainly of the donors I spoke to, no one had any complaints of the kind described.  As I have said before, in a country with a 25% unemployment rate, most kidney donors use their payment to set up a shop of their own which keeps them employed for the rest of their lives: they don't have to worry about what anyone (erroneously!) thinks of their ability to lift things.

The type of extreme poverty that exists in the Philippines dehumanizes people, especially because primary school children have to pay fees to attend, so that the poverty of their parents keeps them ignorant and poor as well for the rest of their lives.  But I don't see how it dehumanizes these people when they are offered a way out of their poverty, a way to send their children to school, which involves a trade-off which they themselves consider to be a good bargain, with more advantages than disadvantages for them.  On the contrary, if we paternalistically decide for them, from our position of material comfort in the West, that they are to be denied the option of making the only bargain available for them to get out of the poverty trap they are in, then it is THAT which dehumanizes them, by taking away the very same autonomy and freedom of personal choice which our own legal system values so highly.

[kitkatz]

I think this thread has reached a point of pointlessness. Just my  worth

I agree with you totally!

[Epoman]

I think this thread has reached a point of pointlessness. Just my  worth

I agree with you totally!

I am removing the "Sticky" on this thread. I believe this thread needs to be taken out back and shot. 

[sandman]

I think this thread has reached a point of pointlessness. Just my  worth

I agree with you totally!

I am removing the "Sticky" on this thread. I believe this thread needs to be taken out back and shot. 

Grab the shotgun pa.  This ones a goner. 

[mitchorganbroker]

This is about the only place where ESRD patients couldn't argue affectively against live Philippine transplants. Free speech in the end shows both sides to the coin. There are only one country in the world where its legal to get a live donor transplant, where the donor initiated his participation to help himself. To the people who want the donor to get more, I say, put your money where your mouth is. Give him more and more. Half your pay check every week.
I find it's worse than ironic , that the people who need a fast transplant the most , scream the loudest , against it. That is indeed trapping yourself.
  The pros and the cons about Philippine transplants:
        Pros : No waiting nonsense, just a few weeks of testing, one day of ethics meeting for the donor.
                 The Surgeons have trained in the US or with American instructors, using American methods for both   the donor and the recipient. The Live kidney makes urine as soon as its attached in the recipient. Fly home in a month with full kidney function.

       Cons: It costs between 70-85,000.USD. Even if your commercial insurance reimburses you, it needs to be paid ahead of surgery. There will be little peer support from forum members. You will feel nervous until you meet the Surgeon in the Hospital.

[Sara]

This is about the only place where ESRD patients couldn't argue affectively against live Philippine transplants.

So are you saying other places DID have effective and convincing arguments against transplants in the Philippines?  Good to know!   

[mitchorganbroker]

No, I am saying that Epoman allows both sides to be discussed here , but the other boards would close it in the middle or tended to allow screaming against me but would delete enough of my answers to real questions, that it was not the whole picture.

[mallory]

I think this thread has reached a point of pointlessness. Just my  worth

I agree with you totally!

I am removing the "Sticky" on this thread. I believe this thread needs to be taken out back and shot. 

Grab the shotgun pa. This ones a goner.

I agree.  We could keep trading posts on this forever and we're never going to reach consensus.  And I can be quite stubborn, so, if you don't stop me, I have enough articles on this (from sources I consider legitimate!) to keep going indefinitely.  Even I don't want that to happen!

[kitkatz]

Blam! Blam!  Okay I have shot the thread already!   

[AlasdairUK]

I'm happy for it to end, I have said what I wanted.

I'm glad that Mitch was allowed to post in full even though I disagree with him.

[kitkatz]

I say we all let Mitch have this thread and we will take our toys and go play somewhere else.

[mitchorganbroker]

Who is eligible for a transplant in the Philippines ? Virtually all ESRD patients who want and need a kidney transplant, after our Surgeon gives the go ahead. However we don't use that non medical misleading phrase
 " eligible for a transplant". Why is this phrased used in American Transplant Hospitals.? This gives them a polite way to get rid of overweight patients, elderly , past users of substances and other less than perfect people.
The US hospitals gets to cherry pick the kidney transplant patients they prefer. Remember they have a geographic monopoly and a waiting list a mile long so they create categories with artificial lines, to eliminate ESRD patents from the transplant list. They find that kidney patients accept sugar coated bullshit ("not eligible") as they get kicked off the US transplant list. If those American patients were diagnosed ESRD and their doctor recommended they get a transplant, then by golly they should.
    That standard is not used for Liver transplant candidates in the US. With Liver failure patients, the one bleeding to death and figured to die moves to the head of the transplant list. Thus the sickest Liver patient is not kicked off the list as with ESRD patients. 
   So if your American/Canadian/UK hospitals gives the " not eligible" screw job, we will save the day with a live Philippine transplant.   

[mitchorganbroker]

Who is eligible for a transplant in the Philippines ? Virtually all ESRD patients who want and need a kidney transplant, after our Surgeon gives the go ahead. However we don't use that non medical misleading phrase
 " eligible for a transplant". Why is this phrased used in American Transplant Hospitals.? This gives them a polite way to get rid of overweight patients, elderly , past users of substances and other less than perfect people.
The US hospitals gets to cherry pick the kidney transplant patients they prefer. Remember they have a geographic monopoly and a waiting list a mile long so they create categories with artificial lines, to eliminate ESRD patents from the transplant list. They find that kidney patients accept sugar coated bullshit ("not eligible") as they get kicked off the US transplant list. If those American patients were diagnosed ESRD and their doctor recommended they get a transplant, then by golly they should.
    That standard is not used for Liver transplant candidates in the US. With Liver failure patients, the one bleeding to death and figured to die moves to the head of the transplant list. Thus the sickest Liver patient is not kicked off the list as with ESRD patients. 
   So if your American/Canadian/UK hospitals gives the " not eligible" screw job, we will save the day with a live Philippine transplant.   

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Mallory,Kikatz,Geoff,Sandman and lets not forget LIVECAM, Is silent sulking your appology for LYING. Using imaginary names like  broker,.?  Calling it Black Market cause its discreet and the dumbest of all , about informing donors of the risks, if they make money.  If they are stupid enough to do it for free , the implication is then their health will be ok.
  How can the me-me generation afford a Philippine transplant ? They borrow on a family member's house which on the low average is worth in the most affordable markets in the country :
Market Median home price*
Minot, N.D. $132,300 
Killen, Texas $140,310 
Arlington, Texas $140,975 
Grayling, Mich. $144,250 
Topeka, Kan. $148,050 
Canton, Ohio $148,333 
Tulsa, Okla. $148,575 
Billings, Mont. $150,141 
Fort Worth, Texas $151,250 
Cadillac, Mich. $151,530 
*All prices for 2,200 sq-ft., 4 br, 2 1/2 bath homes; Source: Coldwell Banker's Home Price Comparison Index
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Geoff , are you also admitting lying to the forum with those imaginary brokers and that with your "family business" you can afford the transplant with the higher price ? You posted again that you are depressed , and taking Xanax and Restoril and lost your job and had to move in with your parents.
  Xanax is an an addicting tranquillizer, and you take double doses . Each time the doses wears off a person feels nervous and more depressed than before. The double dose Restoril adds to the nervous-depressed withdrawal effect.
 If you do desire to taper down , it must be under your doctor 's supervision, otherwise you may get a seizure.

[geoffcamp]

Alright Mitch, you crossed the line.  Anyone in my situation would be depressed from time to time and this is where I discuss it.  I am not lying to you,  I do run my own successful business but health issues and some money issues (from trying to stay on Medicare and paying for my own group policy) have forced me to move into my parents house to make my life easier.  Not that you have any right to say those things about me.  I do have my problems and I deal the best I can. You started this post and were allowed to by Epoman to discuss OUR feelings on the matter, and that is what I did.  I never said anything about "imaginary brokers", I was calling you a broker.  I guess we define what your title is in differant ways, and that is fine.  If you want to attack me go ahead.  It shows the real you, next time I would perfer if you do it to me personally I would really love to meet you.  I have stayed away from posting here for a week and a half and was not going to return to post anymore because I figured we would agree to disagree.  I am truly disappointed in the way you have chosen to address me.. you know nothing about me, my problems or my finances.  You want to call me a liar fine.  I really don't care what you think.  the last thing I need in my life is your negativity.  So I have one request from you.  Please leave this board as it is here to HELP those of us who are facing issues related to ESRD and dialysis.  And if you wish to contact me my e-mail, messenger ID's are posted for all to see in my profile.  The sad part of all this is you are on to a new way for the population waiting for transplants to achieve their goal.  I am not saying I agree with your particular solution but it has proved effective in other areas such as heart surgery, hip replacement where private insurance is covering the costs to go abroad to get the surgeries at a heavily reduced price.  You simply do not know how to talk to us... there is no room for our concerns in your way.. it is you are always right and we are "stupid" for not seeing your way.  I do not appreciate the personal attack on me but I guess I should have expected it.  Now in the end you have proved all my feelings about you and your methods right (to me) and tainted my views on even the possible good side of some of the options you have brought up!  Thanks for all your help it has been a real eye opener for me.  Next time you want to call me a liar do it to my face.  Thanks Geoff

[sandman]

Mallory,Kikatz,Geoff,Sandman and lets not forget LIVECAM, Is silent sulking your apology for LYING. Using imaginary names like  broker,.?  Calling it Black Market cause its discreet and the dumbest of all , about informing donors of the risks, if they make money.  If they are stupid enough to do it for free , the implication is then their health will be ok.

Huh   Are you saying your waiting for an apology from ME?  For what?  Calling you a shady, black marketeer?  Well, I can't speak for everyone here but that is certainly my personal view of you and I will not apologize for that remark.  You have insulted everyone on these forums with your belittling remarks and for that, I will have no remorse with standing behind my remarks to you.

[angieskidney]

where private insurance is covering the costs to go abroad to get the surgeries at a heavily reduced price.  You simply do not know how to talk to us... there is no room for our concerns in your way.. it is you are always right and we are "stupid" for not seeing your way.  I do not appreciate the personal attack on me but I guess I should have expected it.  Now in the end you have proved all my feelings about you and your methods right (to me) and tainted my views on even the possible good side of some of the options you have brought up!  Thanks for all your help it has been a real eye opener for me.  Next time you want to call me a liar do it to my face.  Thanks Geoff

His constant insults have made him look so bad that no one could possibly take him as a decent person. He did it to himself. He has no one to blame but himself!

[mitchorganbroker]

Angie, you posted an article about "Harvesting Organs for Organ Transplant Without Permission". This sounds like something from the Nazi . I doubt the moral majority would go for that. That is almost as bad as the Chinese execution of prisoners for organs. These above are about forcing organs out of people without any permission.
  How can you criticize the Philippine system where donors get paid and step up to the plate with a normal type of incentive of earning money.Yet you guys turn the voluntary payment into something dirty by repeating lies made up by news rags.
   Hey Guys, how about the same  playing rules for all . If I am called an evil dude without concrete evidence then I can return the favor without you yelling "foul"
   Angie, that other stupid article you posted twice on your board "Wealthy British buy organs from poor Philippine people  on the web site www.Liver4you .org "   was the title but later in the article itself they admitted that web site doesn't sell organs  but arranges transplants. You guys absorb that for about five minutes, then you're back raving the first part again.   
-------------------------------------------------
 Geoff , you defined my title with an insult, thus you started the insults. You said you want to meet me personally, fine , but we only wear Surgical gloves to get you that live donor transplant you are crying out for. Remember talk nice, because I am the last guy on Earth who can help you. That Medical tourism thing in two yrs NEVER got anybody transplanted. The Chinese get you an old kidney, since the donor was killed last week for a heart patient. The Paks sometimes can do a transplant but don't they kill French and British Tourists in the street ?  Every place else it's illegal. As for the US hospitals when they go cherry picking, what will they say to you. 5 yrs from now ?
-------------------------------------------------
 Sandman : you said "an apology from ME?  For what?  Calling you a shady, black marketeer"
     Did you reach that conclusion while you were  dreaming or do you have something concrete,  like proof.?  And why did you spell the word "me" in capitals ?
   I think some of you  may turn into a Pinocchio.

[Sluff]

Put an end to this madness 

Mitch ORGANBROKER you have done nothing more than insult the other members on this site with continuing the same driveling answers just changing them around with different words. You are an insult to the people here who live with CKD and live on dialysis.

Most people here have /are intelligently investigating what is best for themselves regarding medical care and you make it sound like you have all the answers when you don't. Your name says it all.

The members here have told you repeatedly that they are not buying what you are selling.

All your answers recently are personal attacks on the people who disagree with you. Everyone including you have had plenty of time to share their own ideas. It is becoming repetitive and pointless.

[vandie]

Good Grief!!  This is getting ridiculous.  This is obviously a sore subject to a lot of people, but life is what is is: difficult.  We make decisions that are best for us for our own reasons.  I have enjoyed the back and forth between all of the members; Mitch and Stauffenburg included.  It is refreshing to see something so controversial spoken about with such knowledge. 
It is also wonderful to know that our members, all of them, are so passionate about what they believe in.  I feel informed by all of this conversation from every angle. 
I think the personal attacks, from all sides, are unnecessary.
This website is always about support and information, and getting all of the information is what we need to do.  Although some of us do not agree with it, buying an organ may be an option for some.
 

[sandman]

Sandman : you said "an apology from ME?  For what?  Calling you a shady, black marketeer"
     Did you reach that conclusion while you were dreaming or do you have something concrete,  like proof.?  And why did you spell the word "me" in capitals ?
   I think some of you  may turn into a Pinocchio.

That's right.  That is what I said.  Of course I researched my conclusion to my accusing you of that "black marketing" thing because the term best describes what you appear to be, according to North American laws and customs.  You want proof?  Try google.com and search for something like this.  black market.  And this is not a dream my friend, this is just the cold, hard facts.

I used the word "me" in caps because you were accusing me of lying when I was doing nothing of the kind.  You may call me mistaken but don't ever call me a lier.  I take great pride in the truth, no matter how harsh it may turn out.

[mitchorganbroker]

Sandman, are you saying that I am in N.America ? Angie can see that I post from the Philippines. Do you think N.American laws apply to the Philippines ?.
 Sandman the quote that follows you placed an Angies board  "Now, the services that you seem to be offering may apear to the rest of the world that the US deals with in this matter as a black market for organs and transplants. And contrary to popular belief" That may appear phrase is what you have leaned upon , so kindly show specific proof or back off the name calling.

The following , I though you understood but obviously not..
 I look to find patients, while remaining physically in Asia to screen patients by speaking to them and looking at the records ,then we refer them  to a Surgeon who is also in the Philippines, who then contacts a donor. The Donor goes before a Hospital ethics committee, still in the Philippines for approval of his compensated donation. In the Philippine, their own law applies in the Philippines ,so why do you keep bringing up N.America law  ? Is it superior ?
   What part of this work which is legal in the Philippines are you calling black market. ?
You know, in N. America if a donor is approved after the ethics committee , even if it took 6 months. It is legal.
So if you follow the laws of where this takes place(Philippines), its legal. Can't you understand this and not forget it in a week ?

[BigSky]

That's right.  That is what I said.  Of course I researched my conclusion to my accusing you of that "black marketing" thing because the term best describes what you appear to be, according to North American laws and customs.  You want proof?  Try google.com and search for something like this.  black market.  And this is not a dream my friend, this is just the cold, hard facts.

I used the word "me" in caps because you were accusing me of lying when I was doing nothing of the kind.  You may call me mistaken but don't ever call me a lier.  I take great pride in the truth, no matter how harsh it may turn out.

First off I do not agree with the buying and selling of organs for obvious reasons.


However if you think it is black market you are wrong.  To be black market it would have to be illegal in the Philippines in the first place or the transaction would have to occur in the US.

The only way it will be black market is if the transaction occurs in the US.  Since the "donor" (term used very loosly) is not in the US it is doubtful that will ever be the case.  Also to my knowledge there is no US law that prohibits US citizens from traveling to such countries for such things.  US law nor does Customs have any authority in what is going on unless it occurs in the US and even then the organ transfer hs to affects interstate commerce. 


No I am not siding with the guy either. 

[Zach]

I wonder if the new kidney is duty-free when the patient re-enters the U.S.?

[vandie]

I wonder if the new kidney is duty-free when the patient re-enters the U.S.?

lol. . . .really loud. 

[BigSky]

I wonder if the new kidney is duty-free when the patient re-enters the U.S.?

Only if bought at a duty-free shop.