Is Quitting Dialysis Suicide

[Rerun]

This topic has been split from the "considering giving up dialysis treatment".   Rerun Moderator


Sandsman, the only thing that offended me about your most recent post is you referring to stopping dialysis as "suicide."  It is NOT suicide to stop life support.  It is legal and it is our last "right."  If I decide not to put myself through the torture anymore than I have the right to stop dialysis.  Don't taint that with the word "suicide" as if I'm killing myself for no good reason.









EDITED: Tried Fixed spelling in original title-kitkatz-Moderator

[sandman]

Sandsman, the only thing that offended me about your most recent post is you referring to stopping dialysis as "suicide."  It is NOT suicide to stop life support.  It is legal and it is our last "right."  If I decide not to put myself through the torture anymore than I have the right to stop dialysis.  Don't taint that with the word "suicide" as if I'm killing myself for no good reason.

Rerun, what is the definition of suicide?  I am quoting this from dictionary.com.

The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself

Terminating ones own life support voluntarily, and for no reason other then "I can't take this life anymore" is by all means, killing yourself and there for, is suicide.  I don't care how much you sugar coat it.  And for your information, it is legal to deny resuscitation ( in most states ) and it is also legal to deny medical treatment IF, it is not a threat to your life or anyone else's or if you simply can not be helped.  Where I can agree with you on one point, it is your god given right to do with your life, as you see fit but what you seem to not understand is that it is not your legal right to commit self termination simply because you don't want to live any more.  If it were, millions of people would be getting high dollar life insurance plans and killing themselves so their loved ones would reap the benefits.

[Rerun]

The difference is we would have died from natural causes (ESRD). We have signed up to live "extra" with dialysis.  Is a person committing suicide when they have been diagnosed with terminal cancer and deny chemotherapy?  Is a person committing suicide when they have a DNR (do not resuscitate) order? NO~!

[angieskidney]

I hate to say it but Sandman, Rerun is right. If any of us on Dialysis stop dialysis it is NOT suicide because dialysis IS life-support. Our kidneys have stopped working and even my disability has me listed as "dependent on life-sustaining therapy" (yes, that is an exact quote). I don't think you realize that. Yes, I see your point, but it is just the facts. You have only seen a taste of the complications of a dialysis patients life, but there is still so much for you to see. Keep in mind that our experiences give us a unique view point which you understandably would have a hard time understanding. It is so easy to get down and just want to give up. Only when you see us being strong is it that you forget the hard times we go through on a day to day process.

If we choose to stop "life sustaining therapy" it is not suicide at all! Instead it is putting our life into God's hands.

[BigSky]

Terminating ones own life support voluntarily, and for no reason other then "I can't take this life anymore" is by all means, killing yourself and there for, is suicide.  I don't care how much you sugar coat it.  And for your information, it is legal to deny resuscitation ( in most states ) and it is also legal to deny medical treatment IF, it is not a threat to your life or anyone else's or if you simply can not be helped.  Where I can agree with you on one point, it is your god given right to do with your life, as you see fit but what you seem to not understand is that it is not your legal right to commit self termination simply because you don't want to live any more.  If it were, millions of people would be getting high dollar life insurance plans and killing themselves so their loved ones would reap the benefits.

BS Someone quitting dialysis has nothing to do with suicide or self termination.  It's called letting nature take its course.

Also it is the medical profession that cannot deny treatment if there is a threat to ones life.  It has nothing to do with patients refusing medical treatment on their own.  Any person who is of sound mind and age of consent can REFUSE ANY MEDICAL TREATMENT AT ANYTIME no matter what the end result may be.

[Zach]

Dialysis is a gift of life.     

[SpeedFleX]

To me quiting dialysis is Suicide. And it has nothing to do with death can then take it's natural course so it's not suicide. That kind of thinking is just to make them feel better while there doing in reality they have the same thoughts as someone putting a rope around there neck. Well that's what I think anyways. I don't no yet through I have never thought of giving up because so far no matter how much they throw at me I'm still wanna enjoy every possible moment I can get where life flows through my veins.

What I would really like to know is what makes something natural and what makes it"unnatural"! Just because its manmade doesn't make it unnatural because guess what we are also part of nature, so in the end what we think of and build is just as natural as a beaver building it's house on a river. And we humans if u like it are not built a dialyzed machine because we want to help others which is natural.

So take the help that humans have are step on in to the other side.

[kevno]

For me Yes it would be suicide. In 1977 the Doctors had a meeting about me going onto dialysis, I only just got to go on Haemo. The Doctors were not sure how I would cope with the needles. I never did, if it had been up to me then I would not have been on haemo. The nightmare that was those four years. I refused to go on haemo in early 1987 at the end of my transplant.  1988 i had no choice but to have one haemo session, can not remember it. I was out of it, had left it too long. Was waiting for a place on CAPD. Which I got May 26th 1988. That was until September 30th 2000 when once again I had not choice but to go back on haemo. I have refused haemo a couple of times, just got out of the chair and walked off the unit, come of the machine after a hour or so. But now that the Nurses have (for now) given up to the needles. I am stopping on the machine for the time I am allotted. My only good lab result was my HB for some reason always high, so never had much Epo only ever after big operations. Not had Epo since March 2005. Do not think I have it in me to stop treatment altogether. I have thought about it, but I think that most renal patients think about giving up. In all my time on dialysis I have only ever known three patients who have refused treatment. But they had much more wrong with them than just kidney failure. They saw no hope in their future, plus they had no hope of surviving. So why prolong their life as I was told by one

[TrophyWife]

Just my opinion-- but to me...........Quiting Dialysis is NOT suicide. I'm not saying in any way that anyone should quit but actually it would be brave if it was the choice of the dialysisee to do so.............AND a shows a GREAT faith in Jesus Christ. After all, if I chose to quit dialysis it would be because of my faith in Jesus. Because I would know my soul would not die. I think it is sad when I see VERY elderly people holding on to life....barely making it in and out of the dialysis center..........skin and bone. My choice would be to let go and go see my Lord and Savior. Now my father does not feel the same way and rolls his eyes at me when I say this.


Fixed italicises - Rerun - Moderator

[livecam]

Doing anything that is going to produce sure death technically is suicide.  Usually people stop dialysis for different reasons than those most people would commit classic suicide for.  Stopping dialysis is more about just getting some peace after suffering with kidney and often other life threatening problems for a long period.  Often it is older patients who have been on dialysis for a period of time who have just had enough of the whole thing and want it to end. There is an interesting example of a well known author who decided to stop earlier in the year.  Art Buchwald pulled the plug on dialysis but the results weren't quite what he expected.  He continued to live without dialysis and if memory serves me has gone 4-6 months without treatment.  That isn't the usual outcome and every patient is different.

[kevno]

Yes, I see the Same on our unit, but the unit I am on is a Acute Renal unit, a lot of very ill patients. It was just a general quesion "Is quiting Dialysis Suicide"  Say if a fit 20 year old refused to carry on with dialysis, I would say that would be suicide. Say, a old person(what ever that is) ill, skin and bones lived their life. Maybe a different answer

[Rerun]

Is refusing Chemotherapy when diagnosed with terminal cancer suicide? 

Is refusing dialysis when diagnosed with ESRD (which is terminal) suicide?

There is no difference in the questions.  Both are terminal and a "treatment" can prolong life.

To me, I'm living an extended life by choice, and by choice I can quit anytime and it would not be suicide.  It would be "letting nature take its course."

[Bajanne]

I must say that in my opinion stopping dialysis IS suicide.  Whether it is wrong or right is another matter.  That is not for me to decide.  If I dive under water and stay there, nature takes its course and I drown.  Isn't that suicide? 
The definition of 'suicide' from Dictionary.com is "The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself".  It doesn't state whether it was someone on a machine or not.
If someone stops us from going to dialysis and we die, isn't it murder?

[SpeedFleX]

Is refusing Chemotherapy when diagnosed with terminal cancer suicide? 

Is refusing dialysis when diagnosed with ESRD (which is terminal) suicide?

There is no difference in the questions.  Both are terminal and a "treatment" can prolong life.

To me, I'm living an extended life by choice, and by choice I can quit anytime and it would not be suicide.  It would be "letting nature take its course."

Aren't we all living an extended life by choice, anybody can just jump from a bridge, stop eating, hang themselves healthy or not healthy?

[Rerun]

Is refusing Chemotherapy when diagnosed with terminal cancer suicide? 

Is refusing dialysis when diagnosed with ESRD (which is terminal) suicide?

There is no difference in the questions.  Both are terminal and a "treatment" can prolong life.

To me, I'm living an extended life by choice, and by choice I can quit anytime and it would not be suicide.  It would be "letting nature take its course."

Aren't we all living an extended life by choice, anybody can just jump from a bridge, stop eating, hang themselves healthy or not healthy?

No.

[Rerun]

I must say that in my opinion stopping dialysis IS suicide.  Whether it is wrong or right is another matter.  That is not for me to decide.  If I dive under water and stay there, nature takes its course and I drown.  Isn't that suicide? 
The definition of 'suicide' from Dictionary.com is "The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself".  It doesn't state whether it was someone on a machine or not.
If someone stops us from going to dialysis and we die, isn't it murder?

Yes that is murder.  Thus... so is Abortion!  HA! GOT YOU THERE all you pro choice people!!!  (Not directed at you Bajanne)

[SpeedFleX]

There is a difference in the 2 diseases, Sometimes terminal cancers goes into remission and nobody's can explain why! Kidney failure on the other hand does not go into remission and stays constent


and C'mon u can do better then just "no."

[Rerun]

There is a difference in the 2 diseases, Sometimes terminal cancers goes into remission and nobody's can explain why! Kidney failure on the other hand does not go into remission and stays constent

Tell that Art Bukhwald~  http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/jan-june06/buckwald_3-28.html

I can't find out if he is still alive.  I will guess he is.

Okay. I won't say anymore, you know my opinion.  I will try and make this topic a poll.

[goofynina]

I am saying yes it is, dont know how to explain how or why i think that way, i just do 

[BigSky]

I must say that in my opinion stopping dialysis IS suicide.  Whether it is wrong or right is another matter.  That is not for me to decide.  If I dive under water and stay there, nature takes its course and I drown.  Isn't that suicide? 
The definition of 'suicide' from Dictionary.com is "The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself".  It doesn't state whether it was someone on a machine or not.
If someone stops us from going to dialysis and we die, isn't it murder?

It doesnt matter what they have as the defiantion.

One has to actually physically do something to themselves that brings their death in order for it to be suicide.  The act of quitting dialysis is not such a thing because you are not physically doing an act to yourself.   Because if it was everyone committs suicide, by not eating right at every meal, not exercising everyday etc etc etc.

[SpeedFleX]

But that is committing Suicide by not eating right, just like smoking a cigarette you are slowing killing yourself, I'm not saying that smoking will always kill. Smoking or not eating right is like taking a trip where u can choose a path you either take the safe journey or u take the suicide trip you could survive but the chance of you dying is higher

[Zach]

Because if it was everyone committs suicide by not eating right at every meal, exercising everyday etc etc etc.

That's an interesting thought.  Are people who smoke cigarettes committing suicide, albeit slowly?

But getting back to the topic at hand ...

Art Buchwald is still alive.  And he has some kidney function remaining.  Please don't use him as an example.

A more appropriate story was that of the American author James A. Michener.  An article from the American Association of Kidney Patients (AAKP) magazine Renalife writes:

The reasons to consider the "No Treatment" option were behind Pulitzer Prize winning author (Tales of the South Pacific) James Michener's choice in Austin, Texas, to discontinue dialysis after two years. Michener withdrew at the age of 90 after additional medical problems jeopardized the quality of his incredible life, and died Oct. 16, 1997, ten days later.

It's an interesting article entitled, So You Have Kidney Failure!  Kidney Transplant, Dialysis, or No Thank You:  Three Sides of the Same Story.
By Eli A. Friedman, MD & Amy L. Friedman, MD

http://www.aakp.org/AAKP/RenalifeArt/2005/soyouhavekidneyfailure.htm

[BigSky]

But that is committing Suicide by not eating right, just like smoking a cigarette you are slowing killing yourself, I'm not saying that smoking will always kill. Smoking or not eating right is like taking a trip where u can choose a path you either take the safe journey or u take the suicide trip you could survive but the chance of you dying is higher

Then since humankind isn't perfect by default any choice we make is considered suicide.

[SpeedFleX]

No because some choices we make we don't know whats gonna happen next. But with a cigarette or not eating we know it we know what we are doing to our body!

[sandman]

Okay, I must admit that I can not see this perspective from a patients point of view.  And in everyones opinion, the act of quitting a life sustaining therapy is questionable.  Okay, lets try this.  

Is quitting eating and drinking completely, suicide?
Is feeding yourself harmful or poisonous chemicals, suicide?
Is quitting to care about life and death and terminating oneself because you don't care anymore, suicide?

Maybe I am wrong but I see that as you ARE committing suicide when you choose to stop the therapy.  I do realize that without dialysis, any person with failing or failed kidneys would certainly die.  The only question here is, when.  I also do realize that dialysis patients could very well die from their life prolonging treatment exercises.  Now if you CAN prolong your life with dialysis and choose not to, is that not saying that you gave up your will to continue living?  Sure, we could all die at any time but are you going to tell me that your just going to throw away your life when you can still function enough to enjoy some of what life still has to offer?  Simply pulling the plug when you could continue with a semi normal life is what I concider taking the short course to the inevitable.  I'm sorry but I can not accept that.