I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Off-Topic => Off-Topic: Talk about anything you want. => Topic started by: hephziba on July 31, 2006, 09:16:22 AM
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Yeah lets start that thread again,
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oh no! lol Catholics ARE Christians because they follow Christ. As simple as that :P
(Yes, I am a Catholic)
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We probably don't really need to re-do this debate, LOL. There were some hurt feelings last time. Mostly mine I think, since I seemed to be one of the only ones who was aware that Christianity does not equal Protestantism.
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Sorry this tread is no good for me :-\ I still have lost my faith :-\ Plus who gives a s@*t who are, or who are not Christians. WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN? I don't know, I don't care.
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God be with us all.......no matter who or what we are.....
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I take it that means it is best to let this one die? I missed the last time but that is okay with me :P
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Catholics call themselves Christians.
Mormons call themselves Christians.
Let me ask you this. Do you trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior above all others including Mary?
Do you go straight to Jesus with prayers and thanksgivings?
Christians are not those who believe Christ existed. Jews believe Christ existed, but they don't believe that he is the savior.
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Catholics call themselves Christians.
Mormons call themselves Christians.
Let me ask you this. Do you trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior above all others including Mary?
Do you go straight to Jesus with prayers and thanksgivings?
Christians are not those who believe Christ existed. Jews believe Christ existed, but they don't believe that he is the savior.
I believe everyone who believes in Christ is a Christian .. that is where the word is derived from I believe (makes sense). Even Muslims believe in the existence of Jesus but they don't think of Jesus as anything other than a prophet and not the son of God like I believe.
And yes I believe Jesus is ABOVE Mary .. and I think Jews pray straight to God .. as do I. But Catholics pray to the Holy Trinity. Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
But I thought we were gonna let this topic NOT be brought back up??
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Did you know that the Muslim's believe that if someone does not believe in Allah ( aka: Muslim's God ) then non believers must die? But Christians believe to love thy neighbor, no matter what their belief?
But yeah, Catholics are Christians.
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/me slowly backs out of thread. :o
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Here is a little something I was reading the other day about the Muslim faith.
This is a must read - it's short but very informative!
The Muslim religion is the fastest growing religion per capital in the United States, especially in the minority races!!!
Allah or Jesus? by Rick Mathes
Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief systems. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video. After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?" There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, "Non-believers!" I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?" The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes." I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!" The Imam was speechless. I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?" You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame. Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the diversification training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs.
I think everyone in the US should be required to read this, but with the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized. Please pass this on to all your e-mail contacts. This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a well known leader in prison ministry.
*NOTE* This did pass the spell checker so please forgive any mistakes.
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I checked out this story on www.snopes.com and the story is false. Go check it out for yourself. You just type something in the search like "Rick Mathes and Muslims".
. . . the Volunteer Coordinator at the prison said that no such exchange as the editorial reported ever took place. "He certainly did not 'Hang his head in shame'," according to Kniest. In fact, the inmate was thanked by the assembly before being escorted back to his quarters. Furthermore, the coordinator does not recall any questions dealing with jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world as reported in the editorial.
In the editorial the inmate is presented as an Imam, or Islamic minister, which he clearly was not.
The information is no doubt true, but the story as how it happend is just sensationalism.
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Rerun, even if no such thing took place, I have had many Muslim friends. and speaking to them of faith I have said " Doesn't the Koran tell you to kill me as I am an infidel, He said Yes." I said " Feel free, obviously He wasn't a committed Muslim. many western Muslims are much like western Christians can be, weak in their faith. But any true Muslim adhering to the commands of the Koran should kill all infidels and unbelievers, count it an honour to martyre themselves for Allah. I have had many Muslim friends who experienced Christ and desperately wanted to give themselves to Him, But couldn't for fear of their family's rejection, attacks etc.
If christians were strong in faith they would obey the bible, eg love your enemys love your neighbours,bless those who curse you, help the widows and the orphans,
Be Kind, be tenderhearted, Love as brothers, not returning evil for evil but rather blessings. overcome evil by doing, seek peace and pursue it. do not withold good to whom it is due when it is the power of your hand to give. ie if you have what it takes to help somebody out of their trouble, then help them.
this is just the love of Christ, the world walks past the beggar and the suffering, Christ cares for the one.
I met a homeless guy in London once, He had been asking buisness men for a hot drink in the middle of winter and close to 5 hundred people had walked past Him. we were later able to see Him established with His own apparment.
even the demons believe in Christ and tremble. does that make demons Christians also?
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A Christian isn't merely someone who believes in Jesus Christ, but someone who is a follower of Jesus Christ, who follows His teachings, who manifests the qualities or Spirit of Jesus Christ in their life.
Being a Christian is:
not keeping a set of rules.
not being baptized in water.
not living a moral and ethical life.
not trying to do your best.
not just being a member of a church.
Real Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ -- not outward rituals.
Many people think they are a Christian simply because they are born into a Christian family or nation.
Others think being a church member or living a moral life makes them a Christian.
But a real Christian is one who has received Jesus Christ, and acknowledges Him as Lord and God. Someone who repents and turns from their sin, who desires to live and walk as Christ did.
Being a Christian isn't about having a label, it's a lifestyle!
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"..and the greatest of these is love"...
Sometimes that gets very forgotten! Incidentally aren't there non-Christians out there on dialysis? Isn't this community supposed to be for ALL dialysis folks and families. Just wondered...
Like Christianity, Islam has different sects. I object to oversimplification and misrepresentation of the faith of others. You might say it's against MY RELIGION!
Mom 3
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Hi Mom3 Yes, there are many different faiths represented hear, atheists, folks into Buddhism , catholics, Christians, and many others besides who I Have spoken to, please join in we may all learn from one another.
But as you can see this is off topic, a section where you can talk about anything but dialysis.
I as a Christian have no problem with a Muslim or anyone of any other faith debating or discussing and talking with me.
Besides,political correctness aside it is all very simple.Christians believe they are right, as do everyone of every religion. Budhists will tell me Buddha is the way to true enlightenment. the Koran tells me that if an infidel will not believe and confess that there is one God Allah is his name and Mohammed is His prophet. then I should be stoned. does that mean all Muslims want to go around killing everyone who disagree's no of course not, the Muslims I have known have a better understanding of what it means to be family than many westerners do, obviously everyone should be offended at any religion which allows or encourages its followers to commit abominations, kill children, etc the funny thing I find is Christianity teaches people to love and people oppose it like the plague.
anyone who says that old line" Christianity has been the cause of all the worlds wars and strife should take a look at the words of Jesus, and tell me those men committing abominations in the name of Christianity were truly Christians. the only place I see in the new testament provision for any kind of physical violence is love protects all things, or love allways protects, which means if My child should be threatend or your child threatened I have a right before God to protect them with my life.
can't be bad can it ;)
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I myself am a atheist. I grew up in a religious household with parents who taught sunday school. They are still very active in their church. I found that I had too many questions with the many different interpretations of the bible, the fact that there are different versions of the bible, and the fact that it wasn't written until many years after Jesus's death. I find it to be a great book, but I believe it to be more fictional than historical. I also believe though that it lays a great foundation for teaching your children morals and ethics. After all, how can you go wrong with the ten commandments. I have looked into many different religions because of this, and have never found any one religion that I can buy wholly into. There are always areas that I cannot agree with or do not believe in. Out of all of them though, I probably lean more toward the nature / elemental religions such as true Wicca, and American Indian religions. I guess having some American Indian in my blood helps on that one. My thing has always been though that I don't care what religion people are. I have friends from a few different religions, and have even celebrated some of their holidays with them. I will talk to you about religion and I will respect your religion, just don't try and force your religion down my throat and we can be friends.
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A Christian isn't merely someone who believes in Jesus Christ, but someone who is a follower of Jesus Christ, who follows His teachings, who manifests the qualities or Spirit of Jesus Christ in their life.
Being a Christian is:
not keeping a set of rules.
not being baptized in water.
not living a moral and ethical life.
not trying to do your best.
not just being a member of a church.
Real Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ -- not outward rituals.
Many people think they are a Christian simply because they are born into a Christian family or nation.
Others think being a church member or living a moral life makes them a Christian.
But a real Christian is one who has received Jesus Christ, and acknowledges Him as Lord and God. Someone who repents and turns from their sin, who desires to live and walk as Christ did.
Being a Christian isn't about having a label, it's a lifestyle!
That is much better than anything I could have ever said!
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A Christian isn't merely someone who believes in Jesus Christ, but someone who is a follower of Jesus Christ, who follows His teachings, who manifests the qualities or Spirit of Jesus Christ in their life.
Being a Christian is:
not keeping a set of rules.
not being baptized in water.
not living a moral and ethical life.
not trying to do your best.
not just being a member of a church.
Real Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ -- not outward rituals.
Many people think they are a Christian simply because they are born into a Christian family or nation.
Others think being a church member or living a moral life makes them a Christian.
But a real Christian is one who has received Jesus Christ, and acknowledges Him as Lord and God. Someone who repents and turns from their sin, who desires to live and walk as Christ did.
Being a Christian isn't about having a label, it's a lifestyle!
This is very well said and I can't find anything negitive about it in which to debate your statements. I know of so many people who put down my faith in Jesus Christ simply because they are ritualistic church go-ers and I don't go that often. It's not because that I don't have the time or anything, it's just that I am not that materialistic and that my faith shouldn't be measured in the time I take to attend church. ( is that the proper wording? )
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A Christian isn't merely someone who believes in Jesus Christ, but someone who is a follower of Jesus Christ, who follows His teachings, who manifests the qualities or Spirit of Jesus Christ in their life.
Being a Christian is:
not keeping a set of rules.
not being baptized in water.
not living a moral and ethical life.
not trying to do your best.
not just being a member of a church.
Real Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ -- not outward rituals.
Many people think they are a Christian simply because they are born into a Christian family or nation.
Others think being a church member or living a moral life makes them a Christian.
But a real Christian is one who has received Jesus Christ, and acknowledges Him as Lord and God. Someone who repents and turns from their sin, who desires to live and walk as Christ did.
Being a Christian isn't about having a label, it's a lifestyle!
This is very well said and I can't find anything negative about it in which to debate your statements. I know of so many people who put down my faith in Jesus Christ simply because they are ritualistic church go-ers and I don't go that often. It's not because that I don't have the time or anything, it's just that I am not that materialistic and that my faith shouldn't be measured in the time I take to attend church. ( is that the proper wording? )
Well I know you and I disagree with this. My mom always taught me that Church was VERY important to Catholics and that is why she calls you a Non-Practicing Catholic. For me I stopped going to Church because I wanted to know my own reason for going. Then I found it last year. I go to Church (even though not as often as I should) because it is the only place that is focused on God. Everywhere else God is being taken out of everything. So if I want to find God I figure Church is the best place for that.
It is not materialistic ... I am the MOST UNmaterialistic person I know :P
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Well I know you and I disagree with this. My mom always taught me that Church was VERY important to Catholics and that is why she calls you a Non-Practicing Catholic. For me I stopped going to Church because I wanted to know my own reason for going. Then I found it last year. I go to Church (even though not as often as I should) because it is the only place that is focused on God. Everywhere else God is being taken out of everything. So if I want to find God I figure Church is the best place for that.
Well, that's just you following in your mothers footsteps. As noted earlier, some people believe church is the only way where others think otherwise.
And just for the record, God is in your heart and everywhere around you, not just at a church. ::)
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Well I know you and I disagree with this. My mom always taught me that Church was VERY important to Catholics and that is why she calls you a Non-Practicing Catholic. For me I stopped going to Church because I wanted to know my own reason for going. Then I found it last year. I go to Church (even though not as often as I should) because it is the only place that is focused on God. Everywhere else God is being taken out of everything. So if I want to find God I figure Church is the best place for that.
Well, that's just you following in your mothers footsteps. As noted earlier, some people believe church is the only way where others think otherwise.
And just for the record, God is in your heart and everywhere around you, not just at a church. ::)
True but I never said God can't be found anywhere else! Just that today with violence in the media everywhere you look and God being taken out of the schools that Church is the best place. That is all. But yes, God is in your heart and in "loving our neighbour" as God tells us to.
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Okay, I can agree to that.
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the funny thing I find is Christianity teaches people to love and people oppose it like the plague.
anyone who says that old line" Christianity has been the cause of all the worlds wars and strife should take a look at the words of Jesus, and tell me those men committing abominations in the name of Christianity were truly Christians. the only place I see in the new testament provision for any kind of physical violence is love protects all things, or love allways protects, which means if My child should be threatend or your child threatened I have a right before God to protect them with my life.
can't be bad can it ;)
That may be because Christianity has killed billions of innocent people in its name. It was the Christian Church who gave blessing to the murder of tens of millions of Indians in the Americas alone. The old kill the body to save the souls of the "pagans" bs.
As to world wars I have never heard that. However Christians have killed far more in its name than most others. Were they true Christians? You bet they were. In fact dollars to donuts says they would question whether those Christians who live today are actually true Christians. However there is a bigger question to that point. That is why didn't God stop his followers from killing in his name. That alone opens up a huge can of worms though. Also it would be hard pressed to find a Christian that only followed and read the NT.
All Catholics are Christians but not all Christians are Catholics.
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All Catholics are Christians but not all Christians are Catholics.
That's true.
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All Catholics are Christians but not all Christians are Catholics.
Not necessarily, some people just have the label Catholic or Christian because that is what their parents, grandparents etc were. It doesn't mean they are! We all have to make our own decisions and choose our own path.
As I said in my earlier post, many people believe they are Christian because they were born into a Christian nation or family, the same can be said of Catholics.
I believe it is about a relationship with God, it's active, a state of heart.
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Bigsky,
You bet they weren't, as I said " read the words of Messiah He never said to Kill anyone, in fact those who were downtrodden are to be lifted up by His followers.
Satan was a murderer from the beginning and does not obey the truth, those men who murdered and slaughtered were sons of there father the devil.
No they certainly were not true Christians, remember the KKK call themselves true Christians, and spent a lot of time hanging African Americans,burning down there houses and churches, there are people who call themselves Christians and have websites like God hates fags(gay people). If Christ truly lives in your heart you have deep love toward people. not thoughts of murder.
all of these people are no more true Christians, in relationship with the living Christ than a satanist is.
so no they were not true Christians. yes many terrible things have been done in the name of Christ to discredit His name.
Christians never killed the American Indians or the Aborigines or anyone else for that matter it just so happened that from the Victorian era it was very acceptable to be called a Christian. Just a label, Tony Blair and His wife go to church on sundays and sit in those religious wooden pews and sing songs, does that make either of them Christians, I don't think so. it was just a label they wore.
read about true Christians throughout History and you will see they were life givers.
William Wilberforce the abolishion of slavery. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/REwilberforce.htm
Lord shaftesbury a servant to the poor. http://www.infed.org/walking/wa-shaft.htm
George mueller. opened childrens homes. http://www.wholesomewords.org/biography/biorpmueller.html
Mr Guiness. http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/4752.htm (http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/4752.htm)
mother teresa http://www.gargaro.com/mother_teresa/. proved by her life that she truly new Christ Jesus.
modern day.
Heidi baker http://www.irismin.org/p/home.php
Ps, you won't find that kill the body to save the souls bs In the bible. only people who twist the scriptures could use the bible to justify killing men women and children.
why God didn't stop his followers from killing in his name. That alone opens up a huge can of worms though.
God doesn't have to stop His followers from killing in His name because His followers wouldn't kill in His name anyone who truly knows Him would love. so the can of worms remains wormless.
You can't class all Christians with the murderers you speak of, any more than we can blame all Catholics for all the bloodshed in the history of the Catholic church.
??? ???
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Against my better judgment I am going to wade in here one last time, knowing it is not smart to argue with people about politics or religion!! ;D
INTERPRETATION is everything when it comes to Scripture. All Scriptures.
I was in a meeting with a local Imam once and that same question was asked about that same passage of the Koran. He explained it that the statement was made in the context of a war, where the common practice among people was slaughter of the vanquished. In giving the option to convert, mercy was being extended. That was HIS interpretation. He was adamant that it did not mean people should go around killing people who were not Moslems!
Human beings have been burned alive because of the "Suffer not a witch to live.." statement in the Judeo-Christian Bible. Hopefully most modern Christians in my neighborhood are not on the look out for "witches" to murder... >:D
Daniel Berrigan and Opus Dei enthusiasts are Catholic, but they hardly hold the same values...must be a matter of INTERPRETATION!!
I do think it might be a good idea to consider when we post that someone might read our arguments on line and feel there would be no place for them in this community. I assume no Moslems are yet part of this list serve or I wouldn't be the one posting this...I find it reassuring that there is diversity among us, and there is even more potential diversity out there in the renal community. A little "do unto others", some thinking about how would I have felt if that was said about my religion? etc.
Mom 3
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hephziba
Jesus said to follow the old testament laws. You know, that front section that is the first half of the Christian Bible. The one with all the stoning people and killing for this or that bs. So those of yesteryear that did that stuff were indeed Christians. Indeed the majority of Christians still regard the OT and relevent.
Christians never killed the American Indians or the Aborigines or anyone else for that matter it just so happened that from the Victorian era it was very acceptable to be called a Christian. Just a label, Tony Blair and His wife go to church on sundays and sit in those religious wooden pews and sing songs, does that make either of them Christians, I don't think so. it was just a label they wore.
Try again. History proves you wrong. It came down directly from the Church itself that the murder of Indians when Europeons came to the new world was ok. It was done to "save their soul". As to kill the body to save the soul it came from the head of the Church itself.
God doesn't have to stop His followers from killing in His name because His followers wouldn't kill in His name anyone who truly knows Him would love. so the can of worms remains wormless.
You can't class all Christians with the murderers you speak of, any more than we can blame all Catholics for all the bloodshed in the history of the Catholic church.
Well if you want to open that can.
Yes he does. It was done because people read the bible. Therefore there is responsibility to keep those followers, even those that you feel are misguided, from taking wrongful actions in his name. You have to take the good with the bad and you do not get to handpick. Funny how you think only those that Christians that do good are Christian and those Christians that do bad are not actually real Christians at all but have no real relationship with Christ. If that is the qualifier to be a Christian or not then all that sin bs wouldn't be needed then would it. :P
I never did class all Christians as murderers or blame all Catholics for the bloodshed or suggest that all did it. See there is no need for me to talk in parables.
But very interesting you jumped to that conclusion all on your own. Hmmm
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Try again. History proves you wrong. It came down directly from the Church itself that the murder of Indians when Europeons came to the new world was ok. It was done to "save their soul". As to kill the body to save the soul it came from the head of the Church itself.
I never did class all Christians as murderers or blame all Catholics for the bloodshed or suggest that all did it. See there is no need for me to talk in parables.
But very interesting you jumped to that conclusion all on your own. Hmmm
Here is where we have a lexical problem. You see, I don't count everything that you do as 'the Church'. What many people call 'the Church' is not 'the Church'. And by the way, the Head of the Church is the living Jesus Christ. Please do not give His position to imposters. The Bible tells us that many will come and say they are Christ. And here is the proof. Jesus Christ, who allowed Himself to die and forgave those who killed Him would never give the word to perpetuate genocide. Never.
The Bible itself said that apostacy would occur, and the above is a glaring example.
The so-called 'church' went through some awful DARK ages. Thank God for John Hus, Martin Luther, Calvin, and some true children of God who were part of the same apostate church, like Pascal and Father Lawrence.
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All Catholics are Christians but not all Christians are Catholics.
Not necessarily, some people just have the label Catholic or Christian because that is what their parents, grandparents etc were. It doesn't mean they are! We all have to make our own decisions and choose our own path.
As I said in my earlier post, many people believe they are Christian because they were born into a Christian nation or family, the same can be said of Catholics.
I believe it is about a relationship with God, it's active, a state of heart.
Well Catholics go through what is called Confirmation (http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Sacraments/) where we say if we believe in God and want to follow the Catholic faith or leave it. So yes, I would say .. Catholics choose their faith and it is not fully based on how they were raised.
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Angie, tell that to any born again Christian Pastor or Minister and see what he says. And after he is done you may still turn it around to be the same. It is not.
But, again, I tell Mormons what I believe and every time they tell me that they believe that too.
"I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" They believe that too.
My response "If you are a Christian then I guess I'm a Mormon".
And maybe the difference is "Christian" vs. "Born Again Christian"
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Angie, tell that to any born again Christian Pastor or Minister and see what he says. And after he is done you may still turn it around to be the same. It is not.
But, again, I tell Mormons what I believe and every time they tell me that they believe that too.
"I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" They believe that too.
My response "If you are a Christian then I guess I'm a Mormon".
And maybe the difference is "Christian" vs. "Born Again Christian"
*sweat drop* .. uh I was only talking about Catholics who aren't "just Catholic because they were born and raised that way" .... I wasn't talking about all Christians... other religions have their own stuff which I know nothing about and have never claimed to.
I checked out this story on www.snopes.com and the story is false. Go check it out for yourself. You just type something in the search like "Rick Mathes and Muslims".
. . . the Volunteer Coordinator at the prison said that no such exchange as the editorial reported ever took place. "He certainly did not 'Hang his head in shame'," according to Kniest. In fact, the inmate was thanked by the assembly before being escorted back to his quarters. Furthermore, the coordinator does not recall any questions dealing with jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world as reported in the editorial.
In the editorial the inmate is presented as an Imam, or Islamic minister, which he clearly was not.
The information is no doubt true, but the story as how it happend is just sensationalism.
Someone posted this in the D&T City (http://groups.msn.com/DialysisTransplantCity/kidneynews.msnw?action=get_message&mview=1&ID_Message=5964) if you want to check it out it is a muslim who says about their faith. And if it was deleted .. this part I will quote from it:
http://www.jesusthemuslim.com/
Jesus is not accepted as `the Son of God'
listen to
first part: www.ebnmaryam.com/audio/Didat26A.asx (http://www.ebnmaryam.com/audio/Didat26A.asx)
second part: www.ebnmaryam.com/audio/Didat26B.asx (http://www.ebnmaryam.com/audio/Didat26B.asx)
moor Audio & Video