I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Off-Topic => Political Debates - Thick Skin Required for Entry => Topic started by: Bill Peckham on April 21, 2018, 12:38:35 PM
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There are so many elements of this that are interesting as we prepare for this meeting to happen. One is where they will meet because what I read is that NK does not have an airplane that can travel > 1000 km and even at that the planes are not thought to be very safe. To get to China Jong-Un [/size]took a train that due to armoring travels at 20 mph. Where do you think they will meet? I think it has to be South Korea - I predict a SK golf resort that Jong-Un can drive to.
Then there is the substance of what they'll discuss ... has anyone seen a realistic goal laid out? What does a success look like?
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Personally I think Kim Jong-un is playing Trump. He wants something, but I'm betting he will give nothing of substance to get it.
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Fat Boy gets legitimacy by meeting with Trump and not a minion, but nothing real will happen.
It's like he read "Basement Nukes - the consequences of individual sovereignty" (and old Palladian Press book) and is using it as his handbook.
The only thing that might work is something like the secret "no interference" treaty the US hammered out with Cuba as the missile crisis was resolved.
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Fat Boy gets legitimacy by meeting with Trump
Well only with Republicans and Republican supporters, the rest of the world got no respect for a world leader whose only presidential meeting is with "President Big Joke". Other world leaders got to meet with Obama or Bush or Clinton or the other Bush, or a selection of the above. All Kim Jong-un got was a meeting with the shouty funny haired guy with the brain of a potato. No one gonna respect him for that.
Well outside North Korea anyway, and within the country the believe whatever he says (or else). He doesn't have to actually meet Trump, he could just tell them he did. Hell, he could tell them he had a meeting with George Washington, and they'd have to believe him.
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Well only with Republicans and Republican supporters
I meant "legitimacy in his own mind". I do not think Fat Boy will gain any particular legitimacy with Republicans.
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Just for my own "edumacation" can y'all let me know how it feels to be so fatalistic, narrow-minded and opinionated?
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Just for my own "edumacation" can y'all let me know how it feels to be so fatalistic, narrow-minded and opinionated?
I'd love for this to succeed ... what does that look like?
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I agree. How will "success" be defined?
The US nor China nor Russia will denuclearize, so N. Korea's "offer" to do so means nothing. I don't see the populations of any of these countries being willing to destroy all of their nukes.
If an offer is made to the N. Korean leadership to, say, do whatever they want to make them feel "legitimate on the world stage", I'd certainly listen.
So, lulu, what do you want to see as the end result here? What would you accept, and what do you see as a realistic goal that would be acceptable to all of the countries in the region?
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So, lulu, what do you want to see as the end result here? What would you accept, and what do you see as a realistic goal that would be acceptable to all of the countries in the region?
[rant]
If I had an acceptable answer for that I would be earning the BIG Bucks. I just had to butt in because I'm pretty sure I'm a LOT older than most members here. I was 4 years old and out for a day of shopping and a movie with my mother when our "friends" in conical hats bombed the s--t out of Pearl Harbor. The m ale lust for power and dominance over people, countries, property etc., continues to get everybody in trouble. In a perfect but apparently unattainable world that lust would be wrenched as painfully as possible from them so that there IS government, by and for, but not power grubbing and possession by any means necessary. [/rant]
Wait...........I forgot about Hillary......oh well! ............and Pelosi.... and _______________________(insert your fave crooked politico)..........
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LOL, lulu...yours is a perfectly acceptable answer! I can't argue with a single word!
:2thumbsup;
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The solution is to let them keep their nukes but surround them with enough aegis class ships so we can shoot down any missle launched at us or our allies. Much easier to hit em on the rise before they pick up a lot of speed.
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@rerun I'm interested in hearing your views on this latest development? I recall back to all the criticism Obama received for dealing with Cuba and Iran and wonder if its different this time? I also wonder why we are back stepping on agreements/relationships with Cuba and Iran at the same time we step forward with North Korea?
For example to me this view seemed fairly prevalent in conservative circles under Obama:
(Rerun this is not an attack, just really I want to know if the conservative view changed under Trump and if North Korea is different. In many of the political debate threads I think back to your posts as a common conservative view under Obama.)
https://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=32498.msg496151#msg496151
So if you can't beat them join them? OMG!
It will be a challenge for them but how Iran will gloat when they build a nuke right under our noses.
Iran is not a country we need to compromise with. Neither is Cuba! Whom will change whom? Do you think Iran will be lured into democracy? See how the United States treats women and think that is a "great" idea? They will instead try to change our culture. Not a good deal.
My view back then was as follow (same thread as the link above), its high time to try something else - the policies of the past xx years have not changed things in Cuba, Iran, and North Korea, but I do wonder why we turned our back on Iran with some democratic like elections and Cuba which is ripe for change, yet out of the three we now want to start working the Dictator.
I fully support it. What have we accomplished with our policy of the past 25 years with Iran? How many centrifuges has Iran built despite all the existing trade bands and inspections. Or what have we accomplished with the past 62 years with Cuba?
Its very clear isolation doesn't make governments we don't like go away. At least we are trying something. Lucky for us people are starting to be more open to trying new things rather than just relying on some play book built long before they were in politics.
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Regarding the possible ending of the US involvement in the Iran deal and how it may affect our dealings with N. Korea, coincidentally John Oliver on Last Week Tonight had a piece about that very subject just last night.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xnZ_CeTqyM
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The solution is to let them keep their nukes but surround them with enough aegis class ships so we can shoot down any missle launched at us or our allies. Much easier to hit em on the rise before they pick up a lot of speed.
Good idea, but any idea how much that is going to cost in tax dollars?
Regarding the possible ending of the US involvement in the Iran deal and how it may affect our dealings with N. Korea, coincidentally John Oliver on Last Week Tonight had a piece about that very subject just last night.
Give back John Oliver. You stole him from us and we want him back (and James Corden, we want him back too.)
PS We will give you Piers Morgan in exchange. Fair?
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Give back John Oliver. You stole him from us and we want him back (and James Corden, we want him back too.)
PS We will give you Piers Morgan in exchange. Fair?
No deal - Oliver is here on his own volition as far as anyone can prove and Gordon seems to be really enjoying himself.
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Tax load of setting aegis Class naval vessels would be shared between Japan, US, and South Korea. They all have ships capable of stopping a North Korean launch. Plus if US or allies territory is hit the US has the power to turn North Korea into a glass skating rink. If you don’t want to go nuclear. The US is the only country that retains the ability to level entire cities with conventional bombs.
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Here I go.....
I had hopes for Cuba but after the mysterious Sonic attack that wounded several of our diplomats in the ears and brains I have no trust for Cuba. I hear tourism is down too. Maybe Bill can go check it out. I'm sure they have some of our old dialysis machines over there.
My hope for the N. Korea meeting is that Trump gets the three hostages back. I hope Kim has researched what would happen to him.... if he pulled a nuke.
I do NOT see Trump handing over billions of dollars in cash in the middle of the night to N. Korea as long as they "promise" to not advance their Nuclear Program. Not gonna happen!
If Trump doesn't hear what he wants to hear from "Rocket Man" he will walk out. Good for Trump!
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@Rerun thanks
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@ Iolaire. Thanks.
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We can only hope that the result is not "Breakthrough!!! This time, we got a promise!".
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I am not sure if Trump thinks he will be able to get some sort of unilateral deal with N. Korea without the inclusion of China, Japan and S. Korea at some point.
To rerun's point, I am not sure exactly what it is that Trump wants to hear.
What no one seems to be thinking about is just how Congress is going to react to whatever "deal" Trump thinks he will be making. Kim can probably do whatever he wants to do since he does not have a Congress to answer to.
The US gave back money to Iran that was Iran's in the first place. I don't know if the US has, in the same vein, kept hold of any North Korean funds to give back. Does anyone know?
If anyone is more edumacated on these queries than I am, I'd appreciate your thoughts!
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Forgot to add: The goal seems to be the complete denuclearization of the Korean peninsula. That would be a wonderful miracle, and I am truly hoping it will happen.
My question is this: The Kim dynasty has spent decades in convincing their people that the West, particularly the US, is the lair of demons. North Korean power and protection from this evil is their nuclear program. In between trying to stave of starvation, the north Korean people take great pride in their arsenal.
So, can Kim realistic turn around and say, "Oh, hold off. We've just discovered that the Americans aren't so evil after all, so we're going to dispose of our nuclear arsenal now." After all of these years of propaganda that has convinced people of one thing, how does the leader from that same dynasty suddenly turn off that particular spigot?
This is basically going to end up being a big face-saving endeavor for Kim, and he will have to have some help in this from the US.
This is going to be really interesting, or really dangerous. I really don't know which way things will go. I go from being optimistic to being utterly baffled.
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Nukes are the only thing that allow fat boy to come to the table as an equal to the US. Once he gives those up, he becomes a small time dictator who rules with permission of, and at the pleasure of, the US.
It is very difficult ot negotiate a peace when the more powerful player takes the position "once we reach peace, you will be subervient to us from a military/firepower perspective, and will exist as long as we choose to permit it". It's one of the problems with the so-called Israeli two-state solution. An unspoken, but very real, requirement Israel imposes is "we may be able to have two states, but we will never accept a Palestinian state that is equal to Israel in military capability".
It would be as irrational for fat boy to give up his nukes as it would be for him to use them. It truly is a game where the only way for him to win is not play, but resigning from the game will bring him down.
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Nukes are the only thing that allow fat boy to come to the table as an equal to the US. Once he gives those up, he becomes a small time dictator who rules with permission of, and at the pleasure of, the US.
(A) Nukes don't put North Korea equal to the US. It means it can no longer be classed as a TPLC, but it ain't equal to the US. Hell, it ain't even equal to the Isle of Wight, and the Isle of Wight is still stuck in the 1970s.
(B) Kim Jong-un is already a "small time dictator", he does not have to give up his nukes to become one.
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ukes don't put North Korea equal to the US. It means it can no longer be classed as a TPLC, but it ain't equal to the US
Certainly not militarily, but they do make it much harder for the US to simply say "We have the firepower, we are in charge, sit down and listen to how it is going to be".
A nuclear power relates to other nuclear powers in a much different manner than do non-nuclear states.
Kim Jong-un is already a "small time dictator", he does not have to give up his nukes to become one.
A small time dictator is one with which the US may say "Time for you to be disciplined. We will be launching a strike in a few days and there is nothing you can do about it or do to meaningfully retaliate". Thing Syria or Ghadaffi era Libya.
Fat Boy is big time because he has enough firepower (nuclear and conventional) as to make that a non-option for the US.
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It is not just nuclear North Korea we Have to worry about, they have spent a fortune on artillery both tube and rocket. These units are deployed to hit Soul with its massive amounts of conventional and gas weapons. While the US has the resources to take out these weapons it would take at a minimum several days, allowing the North to inflict major damage and casualties on the Southern Capital.
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Let us not forget that its N and S Korea who are making history:
https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/989721267728146432
Lets not screw that up.
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Let us not forget President Donald J Trump is the reason they are all coming to the table for peace.
:pray;
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Let us not forget President Donald J Trump is the reason they are all coming to the table for peace.
Yeah, and Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, and the little pixies that live at the end of my garden.
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Let us not forget President Donald J Trump is the reason they are all coming to the table for peace.
Yeah, and Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, and the little pixies that live at the end of my garden.
I do agree that having a highly volatile President Trump threatening war probably helped bring everyone together. (Maybe volatile is not the best word, what I really and trying to communicate is a president that flip-flops all the time - to the point other leaders have no clue of what he will say he wants want to do the next day so they realized that the historical status quo was at risk and they risk Trump starting a regional war which would seriously hurt the region and globe.)
I also think it helped the people living in that area, finally started to realize that they need to start to actually address the regional issues and that it might be in their interest to start meeting on their own rather than let the US setup the process and goals.
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Nobel Peace Prize
:flower;
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Let us not forget President Donald J Trump is the reason they are all coming to the table for peace.
Yeah, and Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, and the little pixies that live at the end of my garden.
..........and your cynical point is?...........
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Let us not forget President Donald J Trump is the reason they are all coming to the table for peace.
Yeah, and Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, and the little pixies that live at the end of my garden.
..........and your cynical point is?...........
I thought it was blindingly obvious, but for those who are confused: Giving credit to D. Trump is as gullible as believing in Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, and the little pixies that live at the end of my garden.
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Nobel Peace Prize
A Nobel Peace Prize for Trump? Hmmm, only the nineteenth year of the century, and already we have the winner for the "Worst idea of the century" award.
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No matter how you look at it. Trump deserves the Nobel Peace Prize for having North and South Korea in the same town, never mind all of the other attachments. At any rate he did a lot more getting those two together than Obama did getting his face on a well known magazine Cover.
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No matter how you look at it. Trump deserves the Nobel Peace Prize for having North and South Korea in the same town
??? Trump did not initiate this, Kim Jong-Un did. And he initiated it because he thinks he can get something out of Trump. Saying that Trump deserves any kind of award for this is like saying that if I come up behind you and hit you over the back of the head with the heavy end of my walking stick, then steal all your money while you are unconscious, you should get an award for giving money to a disabled Englishman!
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And just who do you think persuaded ( word used gently) Kimyy to get his happy arse to a meeting. Kimmy knows eventually he will P.O. Trump enough to kick his butt.
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This is like the Iran hostage deal. Endless negotiations under Carter; release within days of Regan taking office. The key to getting people to do what you want is to either align interests, or present the prospect of overwhelming force if they do not comply (hey, it works to get us to pay our property and income taxes).
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And just who do you think persuaded ( word used gently) Kimyy to get his happy arse to a meeting.
Like I said before, if you are gullible enough to believe that, you are gullible to believe it was also Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, and the little pixies that live at the end of my garden. Kim Jong-Un is a megalomaniac moron. He believes he can fool all of the people all of the time. He believes he has Trump on the hook, and he can offer closing a broken down and unusable nuclear site in exchange for the removal of sanctions. His nuclear missiles are either fake, or he has the majority well hidden, and will offer up a few claiming they are all he has. The idiot Trump will accept this, and people like you will congratulate him.
And in private, Kim Jong-Un will wet himself laughing at the stupidity and gullibility of American.
But why should I worry? His missiles cannot reach England. They can reach the USA, but they cannot reach England. And I suppose that if the USA is stupid enough to vote Trump into the White House, nuclear death is probably a kindness.
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And just who do you think persuaded ( word used gently) Kimyy to get his happy arse to a meeting.
Like I said before, if you are gullible enough to believe that, you are gullible to believe it was also Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, and the little pixies that live at the end of my garden. Kim Jong-Un is a megalomaniac moron. He believes he can fool all of the people all of the time. He believes he has Trump on the hook, and he can offer closing a broken down and unusable nuclear site in exchange for the removal of sanctions. His nuclear missiles are either fake, or he has the majority well hidden, and will offer up a few claiming they are all he has. The idiot Trump will accept this, and people like you will congratulate him.
And in private, Kim Jong-Un will wet himself laughing at the stupidity and gullibility of American.
But why should I worry? His missiles cannot reach England. They can reach the USA, but they cannot reach England. And I suppose that if the USA is stupid enough to vote Trump into the White House, nuclear death is probably a kindness.
Spoken like a true Gentleman, thanks you are very kind.
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Spoken like a true Gentleman, thanks you are very kind.
I'm assuming you mean that sarcastically. If so, you are demonstrating the ostrich mentality that is far too common in America and is the main reason America is not the great power it used to be.
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Spoken like a true Gentleman, thanks you are very kind.
I'm assuming you mean that sarcastically. If so, you are demonstrating the ostrich mentality that is far too common in America and is the main reason America is not the great power it used to be.
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The Obama Iran deal was the stupidest deal in history. I hope Trump cuts it off.
Do you give Al Capone his money back? Dumb Dumb Dumb!
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The Obama Iran deal was the stupidest deal in history. I hope Trump cuts it off.
Do you give Al Capone his money back? Dumb Dumb Dumb!
Agreed, but there is a problem with the political credit rating of the US if we going around undoing done deals.
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There always has been since administrations may change every 4 years in the U.S.! Other regimes know that. Iran knew they had a great deal until a new President got in. Unless it was Hilary who would have went along with the Scam!
Israel had a crap deal until Trump got in. Just the way it works.
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Yes, but some presidents have understood that agreements need to be honored. For example, the "Never invade Cuba" agreement from the sixties seems to have held up nicely.
Israel's accusations seem to be that Iran moved information on their abomb program. It would be ludicrous to expect any country engaging in an arms control treaty would destroy information it already has. They could even encrypt it and upload it to GoogleDrive and have the US store it for them without us even knowing.
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Our 3 Americans held hostage by "Little Rocket Man" are coming home!
Thank you President Donald J. Trump. :yahoo;
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Our 3 Americans held hostage by "Little Rocket Man" are coming home!
And they should arrive just in time to get killed in the wave of terrorist attacks on the US from Iran that come thanks to the idiot Trump.
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Only if Iran has been cheating..... hmmm Haters gonna hate ...
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The US spent a lot of money building massive penetrating bombs capable of destroying Iranian nuclear sites. The fact that if they had not agreed to the deal the US would have taken out the nuclear sites. So now the Iranians begin anew maybe they can purchase North Korea nukes. Three times the US has had a agreement for North Korea to stop development and 3 times the NK waited a. Couple of months and just started over again.
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1. Can anyone here who is celebrating the US backing out of the Iran deal tell us exactly WHY it was such a bad deal in the first place? Trump keeps telling us how stupid it is but doesn't tell us why. How much of this decision by the president was influenced by Israel?
2. Does it really matter if the US has pulled out if all of the other signees are still in it? Have we become irrelevant?
3. Why is no one here giving any credit to South Korea's president? He has already met with "Kimmy".
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Spoken like a true Gentleman, thanks you are very kind.
I'm assuming you mean that sarcastically. If so, you are demonstrating the ostrich mentality that is far too common in America and is the main reason America is not the great power it used to be.
Hi Paul, your assumption is correct, " demonstrating the ostrich mentality that is far too common in America and is the main reason America is not a great power it used to be" I offer this to enhance your image and complete that opinion, :sir ken;
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1. Can anyone here who is celebrating the US backing out of the Iran deal tell us exactly WHY it was such a bad deal in the first place? Trump keeps telling us how stupid it is but doesn't tell us why. How much of this decision by the president was influenced by Israel?
2. Does it really matter if the US has pulled out if all of the other signees are still in it? Have we become irrelevant?
3. Why is no one here giving any credit to South Korea's president? He has already met with "Kimmy".
1. Iran appears to have violated the deal by keeping an archive of its development activity to date. There is only one reason to save that stuff - possible later startup.
2. It matters because other signatories will have to choose to deal with the US or Iran. One German company has already issued orders to wind down its Iranian operation because of the Trump decision.
If I were king, I would have kept the deal if only to preserve the "Credit rating" of the US.
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Only if Iran has been cheating.....
There wasn't a single document from after the deal, all documents were from before, we knew about them. Only President Trump was unaware of them. Israel has a long term problem with Iran, like the America Russia cold war of years ago. They are constantly looking at ways of "getting one over" on Iran. Sadly they have realised that your president is a gullible fool and easy to lead. Basically this is Israel leading the idiot Trump by the nose and getting the US to do its dirty work for them, like an obedient little lap dog owned by the Jews. Don't that make you proud to be an American?
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Hi Paul, your assumption is correct, " demonstrating the ostrich mentality that is far too common in America and is the main reason America is not a great power it used to be" I offer this to enhance your image and complete that opinion, :sir ken;
When I was a kid/teenager America was a great country. 90% of the kids at my school wanted to emigrate there when they grew up. Financially it was the greatest power in the world by a wide margin. Nowadays it is not. Not only is it no longer the world's greatest power, its significance is dropping year by year. The government is so much in debt to China that if it wants to, China could demand anything of the US and the US would have to capitulate. And to kids today, America is an insignificance. The only schoolkids who want to emigrate to the US are those who dream of being movie stars and want to move to Hollywood. The rest know America as "That country that their grandparents keep banging on about once being great -Yeah right!"
America 2018, is a mere shadow of America in the 1960s/1970s, history will regard then and now as being two different countries. People like Trump, and posts like your last post are the cause of this. If there was justice for America, you, Trump, and millions of others would be facing treason charges. But that ain't never gonna happen. And America will continue to be washed down the plughole. For those of us old enough to remember how great America used to be that is sad. But things change. Hey Britain used to own half the world (including USA), now look at us. At least I may live to see us becoming a greater power than the US if your countrymen keep their heads in the sand.
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Hi Paul, your assumption is correct, " demonstrating the ostrich mentality that is far too common in America and is the main reason America is not a great power it used to be" I offer this to enhance your image and complete that opinion, :sir ken;
When I was a kid/teenager America was a great country. 90% of the kids at my school wanted to emigrate there when they grew up. Financially it was the greatest power in the world by a wide margin. Nowadays it is not. Not only is it no longer the world's greatest power, its significance is dropping year by year. The government is so much in debt to China that if it wants to, China could demand anything of the US and the US would have to capitulate. And to kids today, America is an insignificance. The only schoolkids who want to emigrate to the US are those who dream of being movie stars and want to move to Hollywood. The rest know America as "That country that their grandparents keep banging on about once being great -Yeah right!"
America 2018, is a mere shadow of America in the 1960s/1970s, history will regard then and now as being two different countries. People like Trump, and posts like your last post are the cause of this. If there was justice for America, you, Trump, and millions of others would be facing treason charges. But that ain't never gonna happen. And America will continue to be washed down the plughole. For those of us old enough to remember how great America used to be that is sad. But things change. Hey Britain used to own half the world (including USA), now look at us. At least I may live to see us becoming a greater power than the US if your countrymen keep their heads in the sand.
Hello Paul ... What a strange statement you make there about America !!! America insignificant? You must be joking ! First of all, look at the wonderful music American composers have produced over the years ! Furthermore, please have a look at the wonderful mentality of the Americans ! Their mentality has always proved to be completely and utterly reliable. Whenever there was a "hiccup", politically or otherwise, the American people have always found their way to sort it out in their wonderfully relaxed and calm way and us here in Europe, we have always admired them for it... and that will never change, ever ...
Just my :twocents; "thrown in" ...
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The only schoolkids who want to emigrate to the US are those who dream of being movie stars and want to move to Hollywood.
When I was in India about 12 years ago, one of the engineers told me that "every software developer in India wants to get a job in the US and move there".
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The only schoolkids who want to emigrate to the US are those who dream of being movie stars and want to move to Hollywood.
When I was in India about 12 years ago, one of the engineers told me that "every software developer in India wants to get a job in the US and move there".
... Why ? Because American citizens like, for example Mr. Bill Gates and many other American citizens like him, can always teach interested engineers a thing or two about computers and other engineering matters ... and they don't ever mind to give their time to teach others ... and there again: that's to do with their wonderful mentality which I have already mentioned ...
Just my :twocents; thrown in ... again ...
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North Korea is capable of inflicting huge casualties on the South Koreans without going nuclear. The North has a huge amount of tube artillery and rockets emplaned within range of Soul.
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America insignificant?
I didn't say it was "insignificant", I said it was less significant than it was, and is getting less significant all the time. You cannot argue with that, just look at the stats. Or look how America's average GDP has dropped, and is still dropping. Or look how often minor countries simply ignore what America demands, compared with a few decades ago when America said "jump" and the world jumped - now they simply blow a raspberry. Or look how deeply in debt the country is today - compare that to when it used to be the world's money lender. Look how less seriously American TV is taken, when I was a kid American shows were prime time BBC1 or ITV, now they are mostly relegated to Channel Five or the high number channels, or are broadcast late at night, because no one cares about the US anymore outside the US. But most importantly speak to people outside the US. Most consider America a joke nowadays, but forty years ago America was considered important, very important. As I said in my previous post, forty to fifty years ago, nearly all kids outside the USA wished they lived in America. Today they are glad they don't.
I don't know how old you are, but to anyone as old as me who can remember growing up in the 60s and 70s it seems like there are two USAs. The important, influential USA of the 60s/70s and the joke USA of today.
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American citizens like, for example Mr. Bill Gates and many other American citizens like him, can always teach interested engineers a thing or two about computers and other engineering matters ... and they don't ever mind to give their time to teach others ...
Sorry, when did Gates ever do this? I know he helps with the malaria problem, but giving his time to teach engineers? Never heard about that. As to "other Americans" doing this. Do you mean "school teachers"? Because we have those in other countries too, you know.
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As an American (and one who remembers the 40's, 50's etc. I find myself struggling with my "country-self-image" as a no-longer-superpower. I'm torn. It hurts to see my country fall from the heights (thanks to DJ Trump and his accomplices in congress.). On the other hand, it's nice not to be a superpower and the world's policeman. But it's a mixed bag.
I'm very idealistic and I value the principles and values that once characterized this nation. It's deeply painful to live through this devastation of our democracy--especially as an old person with a life-threatening disease.
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America insignificant?
I didn't say it was "insignificant", I said it was less significant than it was, and is getting less significant all the time. You cannot argue with that, just look at the stats. Or look how America's average GDP has dropped, and is still dropping. Or look how often minor countries simply ignore what America demands, compared with a few decades ago when America said "jump" and the world jumped - now they simply blow a raspberry. Or look how deeply in debt the country is today - compare that to when it used to be the world's money lender. Look how less seriously American TV is taken, when I was a kid American shows were prime time BBC1 or ITV, now they are mostly relegated to Channel Five or the high number channels, or are broadcast late at night, because no one cares about the US anymore outside the US. But most importantly speak to people outside the US. Most consider America a joke nowadays, but forty years ago America was considered important, very important. As I said in my previous post, forty to fifty years ago, nearly all kids outside the USA wished they lived in America. Today they are glad they don't.
I don't know how old you are, but to anyone as old as me who can remember growing up in the 60s and 70s it seems like there are two USAs. The important, influential USA of the 60s/70s and the joke USA of today.
... Here we go again... and hello again Paul... I don't really want to "find fault" as such, but there seems to be a little pattern, where it appears to me as if you sometimes take words and meanings out of context - and then, just as it fits a fancy, the criticism starts from there ... I don't want to sound disappointing by mentioning, that - in my personal opinion - it does not work like that, when people try to communicate with each other in a positive way ... Of course, we are at a disadvantage here by not talking face to face, but even there it does not work out by just taking a few words out of context and "hammering on" to criticize ...
Sorry, but that is all I can say about this and I would like to point out again, that hopefully one day I might be able to visit America and learn more about the culture, meet interesting people, inventors, find out more about their literature, music and unsurpassed landscapes ... :waving;
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... Here we go again... and hello again Paul... I don't really want to "find fault" as such, but there seems to be a little pattern, where it appears to me as if you sometimes take words and meanings out of context - and then, just as it fits a fancy, the criticism starts from there ... I don't want to sound disappointing by mentioning, that - in my personal opinion - it does not work like that, when people try to communicate with each other in a positive way ... Of course, we are at a disadvantage here by not talking face to face, but even there it does not work out by just taking a few words out of context and "hammering on" to criticize ...
Sorry, but that is all I can say about this and I would like to point out again, that hopefully one day I might be able to visit America and learn more about the culture, meet interesting people, inventors, find out more about their literature, music and unsurpassed landscapes ... :waving;
I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about. I posted to say I had not said America is "insignificant" but "less significant that it used to be" and posted examples to show why I think this. Your reply quotes that post, but does not actually put an opinion about this, just says a lot of words that seem to have no connection with my post, or this thread in general. Could you re-word your post in a way that will make your point clearer. Thanks.
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As an American (and one who remembers the 40's, 50's etc. I find myself struggling with my "country-self-image" as a no-longer-superpower. I'm torn. It hurts to see my country fall from the heights (thanks to DJ Trump and his accomplices in congress.). On the other hand, it's nice not to be a superpower and the world's policeman. But it's a mixed bag.
I'm very idealistic and I value the principles and values that once characterized this nation. It's deeply painful to live through this devastation of our democracy--especially as an old person with a life-threatening disease.
America's position in the world has always been a central struggle, just as you've described. I can certainly understand being resentful being seen as the world's policeman, but on the other hand, great power brings great responsibility, especially if your goal is to export your way of governance as a way of deterring the spread of communism, fascism, dictatorships and theocracies.
I don't know what it is exactly that Trump and/or Kim actually want. I don't know what it is feasible to hope for. Is it merely complete denuclearization of the peninsula?
As for k&s's value for the principles and values of America, what made/makes America unique is that anyone can become an American because being American means holding a set of principles and values, rather than being of the "blood and soil" mindset that seems to be becoming more prevalent today, just as we are seeing in Europe. I agree that what we are seeing now, the erosion of liberal democracy, is painful. There does seem to be a growing affinity for a more strongman head of government. Democracy is hard and requires work, dedication and engagement. Upholding democracy requires an educated electorate, so when Trump declared that he "loves the poorly educated", he naturally made a lot of us fearful. Having a strongman as head of government feels like the easy way out, like there's someone up there who will take care of us so that we don't have to. It's big government at its most lethal.
But back to the topic, does anyone here know exactly what the US and N. Korea are bargaining for? What will each side demand, and what will each side agree to negotiate away? Anyone know?
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We got our Korean Americans home without paying a huge ransom. I'm thinking Trump wants total denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula. He wants Peace for the world without N. Korea threatening our allies.
Then Trump will work out a "better" Deal with Iran.
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I agree with rerun and am very thankful for Kristina's views. I am not much of a poster, obviously, but Paul you now go too far. It is not just saying whether or not you said America is in More of a mess or Less of a mess. I am fed up with you constantly bashing my country. If you live here and dont like it then go back to wherever you came from. If any one needs to be bashed it is the "leaders" or rather future ones in England. What a joke the new group is. Dont go blaming Trump for all of America's problems he has only been in office a year and a half. I notice you have not griped about Obama at all. Trump is a master deal negotiator and I have all the confidence in the world in him.
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It is great news that we got our people back from N. Korea. We also have American citizens who are being held by Iran, and I am not sure that pulling out of the Iran deal will help their situation. I hope their families are being briefed by the White House and are being kept as informed as possible about the state of their loved ones.
We don't know what the "price" will be for the return of our people and for giving up nuclear weapons. While it is true that N. Korea has agreed to suspend any new testing, no one has seriously talked to them about nuclear disarming altogether. They still can easily destroy Seoul.
Speaking of our allies, is our State Department talking to Japan and South Korea, or are those two countries going to negotiate a separate peace with N. Korea? If we want to keep threats away from our allies, don't we need to consult them at some point? Are we aiming to "talk" to Kimmy unilaterally? Does anyone know?
Jean, who in Britain deserves "bashing"? I can think of loads of contenders on both sides of the Brexit divide, but I am not aware of any group that is "new". Can you explain what you mean because I'm not sure I've understood correctly.
As for working out a "better" deal with Iran, that's not going to happen because the US will no longer have a moderate Iranian with whom to negotiate. The hardline Islamic clerics see the US pullout as a massive "I told you so", and as a result, President Rouhani has lost his political clout, and we have lost our Iranian ally. We have also lost the support of our European allies and the other countries participating in the deal. They will all continue working together, and we will be on the outside looking in. President Trump has not indicated what he would like to see in a "better" deal and how he would negotiate that deal unilaterally, at least, I have not seen any information on this subject. If anyone can give me further information, I'd be grateful.
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Okay, for the first time, I am asking for some consideration. Kidney's are hanging in there, but, now, I have Neuropathy. This disease was made by Satan. My hands shake, I drop things, I would forget my own last name if it wasn't on my Drivers License.
Now then, the newest little bride to be finally revealed last week that she is half black. I have no idea how the British feel about that, but I know it would be acceptable here in the US. However, if the Queen is not happy about it this could cause all kinds of problems
That is all i meant. In other words, they are no more perfect than we are and the bashing of America needs to stop.
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Jean, I am happy that your kidneys are hanging in there, but I am very sorry to hear that you are suffering from neuropathy. :cuddle; Is there anything your doctor has suggested that might help alleviate your symptoms? I wish there was something I could do to help you.
As you may know, I lived in the UK for quite some time, and while that does not make me a loyal royal watcher, I admit to being interested in this particular wedding because Ms. Markle is definitely not what we would define as a "typical" royal wife. Not only is she bi-racial, but she is American AND, even most importantly, she has been married before and has divorced from a man who is still living. But the public has known all along that she is bi-racial. She didn't "finally reveal" anything we didn't already know.
Unless the Queen and the British media are flat out lying, the Queen is very happy about the impending marriage. In fact, and someone correct me if I am wrong, Ms. Markle was invited to spend Christmas with the royal family BEFORE her marriage to Prince Harry, which is a sign of the Queen's approval because this made Ms. Markle the first fiancée to spend the holiday with the Queen. Even Kate Middleton was not invited to this event until AFTER her marriage. I am confident that if the Queen did not approve of this marriage, Meghan Markle would never have been issued such an invitation.
I can also confidently tell you that the Brits are experts in whingeing about Britain! But like most other people in the world, they think it's fine to criticize their own country yet do not appreciate the same criticism from foreigners! LOL!
I hope you are feeling OK today. I am really sorry to hear about your neuropathy and hope you can find something to make your day better.
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N. Korea. Not fun, but on topic.
The Royal Wedding. Not on topic, but much more fun.
Neuropathy. Never fun. :(
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Wait a minute. Why aren't we sending Jared to fix N. Korea? I thought he was supposed to fix everything. Or was that only the Middle East? :P
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But back to the topic, does anyone here know exactly what the US and N. Korea are bargaining for? What will each side demand, and what will each side agree to negotiate away? Anyone know?
The way I understand it the US wants N Korea to have absolutely no nukes (nothing that requires fissionable material to complete its job), cease and desist all research and testing on said equipment (more on that later), a much smaller or even non-existent military and a signed agreement to never, ever possess, desire or use nuclear material again.
NK will probably agree to the "no research" part because they have already declared that no more testing is necessary because they have perfected their version of a nuclear defense solution.
NK price is recognition and respect as a nuclear power, a seat at the UN and a face-to-face meeting with POTUS.
The most common reason for meeting is Singapore is that NK doesn't have a military plane nor the distance capability to reach any other "neutral" country.
I know there are more and better explanations so somebody else jump in here is you feel it is necessary. No trolls please.
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Paul you now go too far....... the bashing of America needs to stop
You misunderstand my point. Firstly, although I have a very low opinion of Trump and his ability to run the country, the points you are arguing about have only a little to do with Trump. You will note that I talk of the decline of America from the 1980s onwards, Trump has only been president for the last two years of that thirty eight year period. Secondly my point is that America can be saved, my posts are about saving America from itself, not degrading it.
If you are not aware as to how great America was four/five decades ago compared to today, you have not studied American history enough to call yourself a patriot. And if you do not want those glory days back, you are as much good to your country as Putin! The point I was making was that the reason America has slid so far, and is continuing to slide, is that most Americans prefer to adopt an ostrich mentality, burying their heads in the sand while shouting "America is still great, shut up you doubters, shut up, shut up, shut up." and letting America slide further into the poop, instead of accepting the problem and doing something about it. Those who are not part of the solution are part of the problem. They are traitors against America ensuring that every day America gets worse and worse, until eventually it becomes a minor non-entity, begging foreign aid from more successful countries. A perfect example of this treason is in your last two posts. Rather than argue for a better America you find it easier to simply complain about what I am saying, stop me talking bad about your country in the hope that if no one says anything about it, reality will go away. That is your right, even though the spoke out against me, I would argue for your right to say what you said. However don't exercise that right and also call yourself a patriotic American, because your posts demonstrate that ostrich mentality that is pulling down America, that has done more harm to your country since my childhood than all Muslim terrorists put together. The twin Towers event was a mere blip compared to the tsunami that your ostrich attitude has thrown at America. Decide now, do you want to continue to be part of the problem and pull the USA further down, or do you want to be part of the solution making America great again? I'm British, so it is not my problem, but you are American, so I would argue that it is your duty.
If any one needs to be bashed it is the "leaders" or rather future ones in England........However, if the Queen is not happy about it this could cause all kinds of problems
I think you thoroughly misunderstand who runs Britain. We have an elected parliament lead by a prime minister. This is roughly (but not exactly) similar to the way you have a senate and a president. The parliament runs the country, most of the decisions are made by the prime minister, but have to be voted on by parliament. Unlike America, the person who is prime minister is always from the party with the most politicians voted into parliament, and almost always (but not at the moment) has a majority in the House of Commons, so what he/she says usually passes the vote. We also have a House Of Lords, but their power has been diluted so much that all they can do is force the House of Commons to vote again on a law, and hope they change their minds. Although people get very heated about the House of Lords (they are not elected) they are really an irrelevance, a lot of noise but no real powers.
The Queen however is not in any way political. We have several traditions that go back to the days when the king or queen really ran the country, but they are nothing but ceremony. For example, all laws have to be signed by the Queen and in theory she can refuse to sign. But if she did, she would have to abdicate (resign) and her successor would then be given the law to sign. And when a prime minister wants to call an election he has to ask the Queen for permission, but if she refused she would again have to abdicate.
The Queen's job is basically as a figurehead. Think of her as being to Britain as Ronald McDonald is to McDonald's. She brings in the tourists and travels the world trying to make Britain look important. But she does not run the country in the same way that the clown does not run the burger chain.
Oh, and if you want to be entirely accurate, where I said "Britain" when referring to the Queen, I should more accurately said "The United Kingdom and her dependencies", but "Britain" is neater.
I am not much of a poster
? It says "Posts: 6025", I think that qualifies you as a major poster!
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The Royal Wedding. Not on topic, but much more fun.
No it is not more fun. It is next weekend, and if I could do so I would go on holiday to a country where they hate Britain and have no interest in our Royal Family, just to get away from that damned wedding. He is fifth in line for the throne which pretty much means he will never get it, so they are "minor royals" destined to hang around on the edge of the news, doing nothing really important but getting enough media interest to make everyonme think they matter. And even if the wedding was of a "major royal" it would be a boring event.
Of course weddings are important to those getting married, to their family, to their friends. But why inflict them on the rest of us? None of us are ever going to even meet the happy couple, so why the interest? If they were "random strangers" no one would give a damn, so why does the fact that they are "royal strangers" make a difference?
If anyone at my clinic has Saturday dialysis and wants to swap with a Friday person, so that they can watch the damn wedding then they can talk to me. "Watching a royal wedding" is one of the few things where I can say "Actually, I'd rather be on dialysis that sit through that."
:rant;
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The Queen's job is basically as a figurehead. Think of her as being to Britain as Ronald McDonald is to McDonald's.
Damn, just realise I should have used Burger King instead of McDonald's in that example. Their figurehead is a king, so more appropriate. (Plus I haven't seen Ronald McD on TV for years, but "The King" is still advertising BK over here.)
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But if she did, she would have to abdicate (resign)
Does British law require to abdicate if she does not sign a law, or is this just tradition?
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Paul, re the Royal Wedding, don't be such a wet weekend! :P
lulu, you are right in pointing out that Kim craves world recognition and respect, ie, legitimacy. I suspect that what he also craves is money, and lots of it, in the form of massive aid packages. And that's fair enough. But the US is not going to be able to unilaterally financing the project of dragging the N. Korean economy up to S. Korean standards, and this is where our allies come in to play, along with Russia and China. China does NOT want an unstable nuclear power on its doorstep. I don't know how much money other countries in the area would be willing to spend. N. Korea is basically saying, "Give us money if you want us to give up our nukes."
This will be all so interesting. Trump has declared that the deal with Iran is "horrible" despite the fact that our allies disagree. The idea was to keep Iran from becoming a nuclear power for as long as possible. If this sort of deal with a country (Iran) that doesn't even have a nuclear weapon yet has been deemed "horrible", then what kind of deal will Trump possibly be able to make with a rogue nation who already has nuclear weapons? How will he be able to trust Kim? There is an incredibly strict verification policy applied to Iran, so if Trump thinks THAT is inadequate, how is he going to ensure verification with a regime that is notoriously brutal and scandalously secretive? The US had a nuclear physicist as the head of the Department of Energy when we were negotiating the Iran deal. Now we have Rick Perry. I just don't know how this is going to work.
Anyway, thanks for you assessment, lulu. It WILL be fascinating to see what happens, although it will probably take some years to see a final result. This could be a real turning point in history! I wish we could ALL denuclearize. Such a colossal waste of money that could be used to help our vets, educate our kids and ensure good health care for millions of Americans.
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But if she did, she would have to abdicate (resign)
Does British law require to abdicate if she does not sign a law, or is this just tradition?
Since this rule has come in it has never happened, she has never refused. So not certain of the answer.
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Paul, re the Royal Wedding, don't be such a wet weekend! :P
Ooooh, wet weekend, what a good idea. Perhaps it will pour with rain and the whole thing will have to be cancelled. >:D
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China does NOT want an unstable nuclear power on its doorstep.
Nor does China want a country friendly to the US on its border. Re-unification (Germany style) with the south would place a US ally on China's border.
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Nor does China want a country friendly to the US on its border.
Wouldn't be too certain of that. China has a lot of money invested in America (both in loans and owned businesses), plus it makes a lot of money selling rubbish to Americans. China may still be a fairly closed and very strict communist country, but it no longer wants America to fail, it would cost them too much money. It would be optimistic to call China a "friend", but they are not the enemy they used to be.
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Dear Paul,
You state you are older than most of us. I think not. I am nearly 80. Yes, I am a poor poster for the last two years, since the neuropathy hit me. I have not had it the whole 10 years I have been at IHD. I do not appreciate your personally attacking me. It is uncalled for. I stand behind my original post, DJT is a wonderful president and history will show this. You post so many things about our country and I dont appreciate that at all.
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You state you are older than most of us. I think not. I am nearly 80.
You can be older that him without invalidating the possible truth that he is older than most of us.
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Oh, scuse me!!
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You state you are older than most of us. I think not. I am nearly 80. Yes, I am a poor poster for the last two years, since the neuropathy hit me. I have not had it the whole 10 years I have been at IHD. I do not appreciate your personally attacking me. It is uncalled for. I stand behind my original post, DJT is a wonderful president and history will show this. You post so many things about our country and I dont appreciate that at all.
Please read my posts carefully before commenting on them. Don't make up stuff I never said and then criticise the words that are only in your head. I have never said that I am older than most of you. In the dialysis clinic about 50% of the patients are as old or older than me, so I assume the statistics will be about the same here. What I said was things like "If you are as old as me you will remember...." which is an entirely different thing.
Now you say you are 80, that means you will remember well the days when America was a great nation, so why are you arguing with that? Are you trying to make America's past look bad?
WRT: " I do not appreciate your personally attacking me." I did not attack you personally, I attacked your views, which are very anti-American, bordering on treason. If you cannot take it when people attack what you say, then don't post on this part of the site, it says "Thick Skin Required for Entry" for a reason.
And you say "You post so many things about our country and I don't appreciate that at all." Did you read any of my last couple of posts? If so, you didn't get the point, did you? Read them again, slowly, and think about them.
WRT "DJT is a wonderful president": I disagree with you, time will tell which of us is correct. Sadly, if it is me (and about 50% of Americans) then America is screwed, so I really hope you are correct, but unfortunately I am as certain as I can be that you are not.
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Gee whiz Paul, I wish I was as smart as you are. You know everything about every body and every country. It is truly amazing. I skim thru your posts because the vitriol against our POTUS and our country is nauseating. Oh yes, thick skin is necessary here and I agree with it, but you have yet, since I have seen your posts to say anything nice about or to any one on this post. You are a bully, plain and simple. There is a limit as to how much the ladies here should have to put up with and you are far beyond. Moose Mom is a very smart lady and she and I have had words, but one day later it is forgotten.I respect her for that. Kristina is a sweet and gentle soul, but, even she can not stand your anger about everything. I have no interest in the Royal Wedding, one can only see one or two and they are pretty much the same, but I dont have to bash the
couple getting married, but it's your country and you bash them anyways. Is there any thing you do like?? I wonder.
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2020 Keep America Great!!!!
:thumbup;
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Gee whiz Paul, I wish I was as smart as you are. You know everything about every body and every country
Grow up. And don't be so vindictive when you disagree with someone else's posts. You invoke Moose Mom and Kristina in your post, the difference between them and you is that Moose Mom understands the idea of political debate and that people will disagree with them and does not get all sulky when someone offers a different view to their's. And although Kristina has overstepped the mark in the past, unlike you she has the courage to apologise afterwards. You however, by your own admission, just skim posts before reading, and as we have seen - post replies on what you think the original post said, rather than what they actually say. Then when this is pointed out to you, rather than apologising like any grown up would do, you go on the attack trying to blame the other person for your posts rather than accepting responsibility for your own action.
I strongly suggest you avoid the "political debate" board entirely. Not only are you causing yourself upset by reading things you do not agree with, remember that others will be reading your posts too, and many people who previously had plenty of respect for you for your posts on the main boards, will now regard you with no respect because of your last couple of posts on this thread. Go on like this and you will have no reputation left whatsoever.
This section of the board is for people who can argue a point and can take it when someone has the opposite view to them. If you cannot do that, it is unfair both on the board and yourself to continue to read posts in this section.
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I did not say I skim read posts, I said I skim read YOUR posts, because they are nauseating. Dont make things up. When I feel the need to worry about my reputation, I will let you know. It wont be soon tho, so dont hold your breath. If you feel the need to worry about some one else's posts, I suggest you read some of your own. Especially the ones where you want to punch people out. But, oh well, to each his own. This is my last post to you and I am sure you are extremely grateful for that. So have a lovely day and just keep hating everything. Not being a hater is sometimes difficult, but can not be in line all of the time. Oh and I strongly suggest YOU avoid the "political debate" since you never agree with any one.
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So, does anyone have any ideas of what Kim's intentions are, now that he is threatening to pull out of talks with S. Korea unless the US and S. Korea terminate the annual defensive exercises that we are currently engaged in? Do you think Kim is just sabre rattling? It wouldn't surprise me.
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It would be optimistic to call China a "friend", but they are not the enemy they used to be.
Frenemy?
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Kim whats his face cant make his mind up one day to the next. I was really shocked when I saw that announcement. I guess all we can do is wait and see what happens.
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Kim whats his face cant make his mind up one day to the next. I was really shocked when I saw that announcement. I guess all we can do is wait and see what happens.
You're right, Jean. He's one scary dude! His unpredictability is predictable.
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Exactly!!!
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It's about 3,000 air miles from NK to Singapore, I haven't heard any recent speculation about how kim will travel but as a practical matter the NKs aren't thought to have a plane that can fly over 1,000 miles (um ... I read that once but it seemed legit).
It is possible that Kim can't safely get there, maybe there will be a bunch of drama and they'll salvage the summit by moving it to the demilitarized zone?
Edit: https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/trump-kim-summit-in-singapore-presents-logistical-challenges-for-north-korea (https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/trump-kim-summit-in-singapore-presents-logistical-challenges-for-north-korea)
Interesting article, a few days old. t's having to bring kim's limo and other stuff that is the logistic challenge. The other stuff kim needs includes "a personal toilet" ... there must be a story behind that (fear of snakes emerging from the bowl?), or he's weird.
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Bill, I am pretty sure he is wierd. Does he require just his own seat, or all the rest of the plumbing??
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This is a repeat of past North Korean behavior, his father reached agreements with past presidents since 1985 the regime in the North has repeatedly reached agreements about denuclearization oh both koreas. Each time they ha broken thr agreement and restarted the nuclear as soon as they could. I don’t see any reason that this time will be different.
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Fat boy would be stupid to give up his nukes. He knows that if he does, his regime exists at the pleasure of the US.
He sees what happened to Gadaffi after he took that path.
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I did not say I skim read posts, I said I skim read YOUR posts, because they are nauseating. Dont make things up. When I feel the need to worry about my reputation, I will let you know. It wont be soon tho, so dont hold your breath. If you feel the need to worry about some one else's posts, I suggest you read some of your own. Especially the ones where you want to punch people out. But, oh well, to each his own. This is my last post to you and I am sure you are extremely grateful for that. So have a lovely day and just keep hating everything. Not being a hater is sometimes difficult, but can not be in line all of the time. Oh and I strongly suggest YOU avoid the "political debate" since you never agree with any one.
This is getting stupid, so this is my last post to you.
RE: "I did not say I skim read posts, I said I skim read YOUR posts" Yes, I know but the point I was making was that you skim read my posts, then reply without having read them properly, just guessing what I said, and sometimes claiming I said stuff I never said. That is pointless, and only serves to make you look stupid. ALWAYS READ A POST FULLY BEFORE REPLYING. I do that for your posts, you are not decent enough to do it to mine.
RE: "I suggest you read some of your own. Especially the ones where you want to punch people out." With this comment, and your comment on my post about the royal wedding you demonstrate one thing: You cannot recognise a joke!
Now as I said at the beginning, this is the last time I will post on this argument, you can now reply with whatever stupid comment you want to without fear of correction. Or you could grow up and learn to act like an adult. Your choice.
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Based solely on what we know as of today (which isn't a whole lot, to be honest), do you all think the summit scheduled for next month is going to happen. or not?
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Not now. I did but Kim Jong-Un's recent outburst and Trump's stubbornness make me think otherwise.
Sp mod Cas
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I stand by my original prediction.
There are only two possible long term solutions.
1. Accept NK as a nuclear power
2. War
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"There is no avoiding war. It can only be postponed to the advantage of others" - Machiavelli
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Seems like both Un and Trump have strong reasons to meet so I still think it is more like to happen then not. I also think the logistics of getting Un to Singapore and back has not been resolved. Trump should pick Un up in Air Force One. Or for Un to get Trump to allow the meeting to happen at the DMZ. Un has the leverage so I could see Un getting the location changed. Is Bolton appearing on Fox? I haven't heard anything about/from him since Un called him out.
Big picture Un seems to be the one who has gained the most so far, if the summit does not happen Un would look to have greatly improved his position without giving up anything. They both would like it to happen but Trump needs something he can call a success more than Un. Trump is going to wing it (http://time.com/5279914/donald-trump-north-korea-summit-preparation/) and Un is following a plan that has already paid off. Not a recipe for success from the point of view of the US's interests.
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Trump cancels nuclear summit with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un
President Trump on Thursday canceled a planned summit next month with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, citing “tremendous anger and open hostility” from the rogue nation in a letter explaining his abrupt decision.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cancels-nuclear-summit-with-north-korean-leader-kim-jong-un/2018/05/24/e502d910-5f58-11e8-a4a4-c070ef53f315_story.html
What did Hillary do to make this happen? :urcrazy;
** any Hillary comment on my part is usually a Joke as a certain group of US voters seem to blame her for everything.
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Like I said before, the only options are to accept NK as a nuclear power or war.
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B..bu...bu...but wait! There was already a commemorative coin made and everything! :stressed;
Thanks, Obama. ::)
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So far the NK`s have pulled this crap on Regan, Clinton, and Bush jr. Now we can add Presidunce Trump to the list. The North has made repeated promises to stop the nuclear weapons program, every time the took the promised aid and continued or restarted the program.
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Lucy and the football come to mind, with the US playing the role of Charlie Brown.
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Lucy and the football come to mind, with the US playing the role of Charlie Brown.
Absolutely a splendid analogy Arrrgh.
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Lucy and the football come to mind, with the US playing the role of Charlie Brown.
Absolutely a splendid analogy Arrrgh.
If I remember my Peanuts, the joke was that Charlie Brown was an idiot who fell for the machinations of his sister every time. So yes, a perfect analogy.
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Lucy and the football come to mind, with the US playing the role of Charlie Brown.
Who is Schroeder? Find Schroeder he's the key.
Lucy is Linus's sister, Sally is Charlie's
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Who is Schroeder?
I am not certain. Does he have a cat in a box?
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Rerun is Lucy's little brother.....
:flower;
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Schroeder was the kid playing the piano, Lucy had the hots for him, I don’t think Schroeder ever really noticed Lucy. Peanuts was full of unrequited love, Charlie for the little red headed girl,Lucy for Schroeder, and Sally for Linus.
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Who is Schroeder?
I am not certain. Does he have a cat in a box?
He may or may not have a cat in a box. :P
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There is media report of a CIA analysis that KJU idea is of denuclearization is different than the US's but KJU is looking to open a burger joint in NK (http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2018/05/30/kim-jong-un-wants-to-open-burger-joint-as-show-goodwill.html) as a goodwill gesture. This is a fantastic opportunity for Trump to troll NYNY. Open a Five Guys in Pyongyang and New Yorkers will be bitching for years that Pyongyang got a Five Guys before them.
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Who is Schroeder?
I am not certain. Does he have a cat in a box?
He may or may not have a cat in a box. :P
So he may or may not have a cat in the box, and the cat may or may not be dead. Does this mean four probabilistic states or three?
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He may or may not have a cat in a box. :P
So he may or may not have a cat in the box, and the cat may or may not be dead. Does this mean four probabilistic states or three?
Three
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Three
So you are saying that not having a dead cat in the box is the same state as not having a live cat in the box ???
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Since you cannot know if you have:
(A) A dead cat in the box.
(B) No dead cat in the box.
(C) No live cat in the box.
These states are the same state.
Thereby we have a choice of a live cat in a box, or any other state, thus using Schrödinger's interpretation of quantum mechanics (Schrödinger's Cat) we have only two real states.
Of course, you realise, this is all bollocks (although I'm sure the cat cares if it is dead, alive, or non existent).
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Since you cannot know if you have:
(A) A dead cat in the box.
(B) No dead cat in the box.
(C) No live cat in the box.
These states are the same state.
Leave a box with a dead cat in it on your porch for a few hot days in the summer, then tell me if it is the same state as a box with no dead cat or live cat in it.
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Schrödinger's original thought experiment worked on the theory that the box was totally sealed so that no sound, movement, etc. escaped it. I think that would seal in the smell of a rotting cat's corpse.
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What happens when two world leaders meet who:
(a) Never travel without a plethora of armed bodyguards
(b) Are protected by professionals who do not allow anyone without the highest level of clearance to be armed in the presence of the regent.
Would the US Secret Service really allow armed North Koreans in the room with Trump? Would the fat boy go in unarmed to a meeting at which the US President was surrounded by armed Secret Service agents?
Just wondering how that worked.
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Dead Cat... Live Cat.... ??
:urcrazy;
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What happens when two world leaders meet who:
(a) Never travel without a plethora of armed bodyguards
(b) Are protected by professionals who do not allow anyone without the highest level of clearance to be armed in the presence of the regent.
Would the US Secret Service really allow armed North Koreans in the room with Trump? Would the fat boy go in unarmed to a meeting at which the US President was surrounded by armed Secret Service agents?
Just wondering how that worked.
From everything I've seen on TV the person setting up the meeting has their second in command check the other primary for weapons. It would be too dishonorable for the one setting up the meeting to kill the guest. However, I am not sure who invited whom any more, I assume part of the setup for the meeting was to consult Mario Puzio's ghost for this specific situation. The meeting itself is usually over Italian food when it is just two people, again the sacredness of the food means it can not be poisoned. This is the way it's been done for hundreds of years.
I'm sure the secret service knows this but incase the summit location has those old fashioned kind of toilets, the kind with the tank up on the wall with a cord coming down, the Secrete Service needs to check carefully behind the tank for any object taped up in there.
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Blessed are the Peacemakers....
I hope there can finally be peace in Korea.
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incase the summit location has those old fashioned kind of toilets
Fat boy brings his own toilet when he travels to prevent foreign spys from running labs on his output.
George W Bush was reported to do the same thing (http://rense.com/general72/fexc.htm)
Not sure if Trump brings his own toilet.
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Didn't take long:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/27/politics/north-korea-infrastructure-improvements-nuclear-facility/index.html
I looked for a Fox News story on this and could not find one.
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It doesn't matter anymore because Trump got the photo op he wanted. That's all that matters. Anyway, that's old news. Every day there's some new weirdness.
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If true, I would think Trump would stick to his word about going back to where we were. Military war games will continue in South Korea and ships back on Fat Boys coast. I hope it is not true. Trump has been a little distracted lately. Too Bad. :(
MAGA
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Mean while the North Koreans are modernizing there plutonium facility, big time. They got all sorts of things from our Presidunce and gave away nothing. The art of the deal was trumped by Kim’s Art of the Steal.
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Your short term memory really worries me. You need to get that checked out.
We got 3 prisoners back ALIVE and we didn't ship them billions of dollars in cash in exchange (of their own money) In other words we didn't give money back to the Mafia.
:secret;
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No we gave them standing as a equal to the US, gave them guarantees that we would honor their sovereignty, promised to end war games, and what did we get back nada. Trump gave the NK every thing they have tried to get for decades. Something about communist dictators make trum fold like a 3 dollar lawn char being used by a 300 pound person. The Iranians allowed inspectors, disabled the plutonium production and every one but Netanyahu and trump was satisfied. That would include England, France, Germany, and Italy. The Israely governments proof was a set of 20 year old documents that represented work 20 to 30 years old. However it was presented as new proof or Iranian cheating. It was pure BS designed to force the US to repudiate the treaty and be forced into bomb Iranian nuclear sites. The reason the Iranians were willing to sign the treaty was the US had bombs designed to blast the under ground facilities. So the Presidunce is scraping the Iranian deal which stopped the Iranian nuclear ambitions and gave the lunatic dictator every thing he wanted and as we speak he is upgrading his plutonium manufacturing facilities.
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If true, I would think Trump would stick to his word about going back to where we were. Military war games will continue in South Korea and ships back on Fat Boys coast.
I sorta agree with this.
I remember when then-candidate Obama said he'd talk to Iran, and he received so much abuse from the GOP. He explained that there is never anything solved if you don't talk. I didn't see anything wrong with that logic. And talking DID bring results, that being the Iran nuclear deal (which we have now pulled out of, which I really don't understand).
So, when Trump raised the possibility of talking to Kim, I was okay with that. The same logic applied. I didn't really care if anyone's ego got stroked. I was more interested in the results than the dance. If talking to Kim gave him "legitimacy", I didn't care. Small price to pay for a modicum of denuclearization.
I didn't care, either, that Trump offered, and DID, halt joint military exercises with the South (although it did worry me a bit that this was a unilateral decision made without consulting/warning our own military, S. Korea or Japan). Someone has to make the first move. Someone has to make that first concession in good faith.
So, the whole world now knows that the US has held its hand out to Kim, let Kim look good on TV and has made that all important first move. It did worry me that we never did hear what N. Korea would offer in return, but I was willing to let that slide for exactly the reason that Rerun has pointed out.
N. Korea has been dragged out of their cave, even if just for a moment, and has been pushed into the sunlight. The upshot of that is if now it is seen that N. Korea is ramping up their nuclear capabilities, all despite Kim having been granted what he wanted, the repercussions will be all that more harsh. Kim will now look like the troll he really is. He wanted the spotlight, and now it is still shining upon him.
Like Rerun said, the US can just start exercises again and can even ramp them up since Kim has given the US all of the reasons in the world.
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It would appear that the war games could be restarted without loss of military preparedness, however the troops that train today may not be the troops you use tomorrow. While the 2 infantry division is station in Korea the personei assigned changes yearly. Today’s games teach the war fighters in US and Soth Korea the capabilities of their allies and builds confidence in the alliance. There is a reason NK wants them to stop.
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We were supposed to get war remains sent back home. I'm not sure they got that done yet.
MAGA
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Although tRump claimed that 200 remains had been returned, the most recent news I could find was that plans for the transfer were still in the preliminary stages.
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At least President Trump didn't grant "Citizenship" to half of North Korea. Like oBoMa did.
Thanks for that Chump!~
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/02/obama-administration-granted-citizenship-to-2500-iranians-during-nuclear-deal-iran-official.html
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Did you read the article? Can you count how many times the words "claimed" and "allegedly" were used? Not a single "claim" has been substantiated. Even the Fox News analyst says it sound like made up BS.
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At least President Trump didn't grant "Citizenship" to half of North Korea. Like oBoMa did.
Thanks for that Chump!~
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/02/obama-administration-granted-citizenship-to-2500-iranians-during-nuclear-deal-iran-official.html (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/02/obama-administration-granted-citizenship-to-2500-iranians-during-nuclear-deal-iran-official.html)
Your justifications are getting worse and worse Rerun. Sad!
Here is a documented uncontested fact:
On July 3rd, 1988 the US Navy shot down Iran Air Flight 655 killing all two hundred and ninety innocent men and women including sixty six children on board. Instead of issuing an apology the US gave everyone aboard the Navy ship a medal.
And you wonder why they chant death to America.
Trump has accomplished these things we can all see -
Higher gas prices - because he blew up the Iran deal
Lower quality of life in rural America - because of health care policies
Looming unemployment - because of incoherence on trade policy
National Security Vulnerability - because of bizarre attitude of the President towards US allies
National Security Vulnerability - because of bizarre attitude of the President towards US enemies
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At least President Trump didn't grant "Citizenship" to half of North Korea. Like oBoMa did.
Thanks for that Chump!~
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/02/obama-administration-granted-citizenship-to-2500-iranians-during-nuclear-deal-iran-official.html
Really? :rofl; :rofl; :rofl;
RR, you should spend at least a little more time fact checking than the PO(TU)S does.
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trumps-latest-anti-obama-conspiracy-theory-quickly-unravels (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trumps-latest-anti-obama-conspiracy-theory-quickly-unravels)
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Willowtreewren, don't you know that facts are so 2015! :sarcasm; So passe. They mean less than nothing to trumpfanciers. Don't even waste your time. They are incapable of grasping reality.
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While the shoot down of the aircraft was unfortunate it occurred on a day Iranian boghammer boats were making repeated attack runs on the Ticonderoga class cruiser. This was at a time when the Iranian navy was using Swedish light boats called Boghammers to attack gulf shipping. So the Iranian airliner took of without a transponder from a airfield that f14s were based at and flew a flight profile that the crew assumed was a attack run on the cruiser. The US radioed the plane to break off it didn’t they fired 2 standard missles and shot down the airliner. It was unfortunate but if the Iranians hadn’t created conditions in the gulf that the crew had reasons to fear a attack. Plus this occurred 13 months after the USS Stark was hit by a Iraqi Exocet almost sinking the Stark.
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While the shoot down of the aircraft was unfortunate it occurred on a day Iranian boghammer boats were making repeated attack runs on the Ticonderoga class cruiser. This was at a time when the Iranian navy was using Swedish light boats called Boghammers to attack gulf shipping. So the Iranian airliner took of without a transponder from a airfield that f14s were based at and flew a flight profile that the crew assumed was a attack run on the cruiser. The US radioed the plane to break off it didn’t they fired 2 standard missles and shot down the airliner. It was unfortunate but if the Iranians hadn’t created conditions in the gulf that the crew had reasons to fear a attack. Plus this occurred 13 months after the USS Stark was hit by a Iraqi Exocet almost sinking the Stark.
That is Captain Rogers story too ... didn't hold up https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1993-08/vincennes-case-study (https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1993-08/vincennes-case-study)
And then the US and Iran settled (https://web.archive.org/web/20080229003159/http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/79/11131.pdf) and the US paid Iran $66 million "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident..."
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Oh there is no doubt that the Vincennes should have realized it was a airliner but the apology and 66 million dollar payment was a attempt to reach a under standing with Iran. Never the less the Iranians aggression in the gulf created the circumstances were created by the Iranian aggression if my memory is correct the captain was never again in charge of a US warship. However if the Iranians had there transponder on the shoot down probably would not have happened.
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I have not heard much about the thought that N. Korea was building more ....... Not sure that wasn't but FAKE NEWS.
I guess we will find out.
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I have not heard much about the thought that N. Korea was building more ....... Not sure that wasn't but FAKE NEWS.
I guess we will find out.
I can only assume that any news that does not jibe with your adulation of the current *president* is fake news. A simple search could have yielded numerous accounts of the most recent news regarding NK, but you did not take the time to do that.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/north-korea/north-korea-has-increased-nuclear-production-secret-sites-say-u-n887926 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/north-korea/north-korea-has-increased-nuclear-production-secret-sites-say-u-n887926)
Note, that NBC is still considered highly reliable and fairly balanced by independent critics.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2152967/fresh-signs-life-yongbyon-heart-north-koreas-nuclear (https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2152967/fresh-signs-life-yongbyon-heart-north-koreas-nuclear)
Always interesting to read news coming from foreign sources.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/north-korea-still-building-at-nuclear-research-facility-despite-summit-diplomacy-1530100351 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/north-korea-still-building-at-nuclear-research-facility-despite-summit-diplomacy-1530100351)
And the Wall Street Journal, which leans right.
Please stop with the fake news ploy. One of the first things done by any regime that wants to control its citizens is to discredit news sources. That makes it far easier to dupe them with carefully filtered propaganda. Falling back on claims of Fake News is a good indication that one has fallen for the tactic.
It is really, REALLY important to read widely from multiple sources that aren't just parroting one another.
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South Korea released photos of massive upgrades at the main North Korean plutonium site, plus more upgrades at its main middle factory. Fake news is any news the Presidunce thinks Putin’s bad light. He believes the Israeli made up BS about Iran but actual evidence of NK adding to its nuclear and rocket capabilities is some how fake news, there is a German expression of people so gullible it’s he lives in cloud cuckoo land.
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Honestly, my vision is going so I struggle through articles which go on and on and don't get to the point.
WT you said "assume" You know what that means.
Words like "allegedly" and "assumed" were criticized when in my article. How about "anonymously reported" or "secret insider". In other words. You hear what you want to hear.
Mike Pompeo should bring back the truth. If it is true what S. Korea reported then Trump will shut the door to them and never look back.
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Mike Pompeo let NK with the NK announcement of the outrageous demands the US made, Pompeo however called the results promising.
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If it is true what S. Korea reported then Trump will shut the door to them and never look back.
If you believe this, you are more gullible than I thought.
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Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."
I think that is quite evident in our current climate. Look at the increase in truly atrocious behavior and the frequent lament of "Fake News."
Rerun, I absolutely DID use the word "assume," because from your many posts that parrot lines offered by less than reputable news sources I made the assumption that you limit yourself to that narrow diet of mis-information.
I gave you sources that could help you broaden your outlook, but they are too long and "don't get to the point." In other words, you aren't going to read them. I'm truly sorry that you have difficulty with your eyes, and I understand that becoming well-informed is often hard work. But I assure you, the effort is well worth it.
I would love for you to prove my assumptions wrong, but so far, nothing you have said gives me any indication that I am mistaken. In my world view, one of the highest honors is to be proven wrong. It indicates that others are paying attention and is a golden path for learning something new. So, please, prove me wrong.
If you go through the effort of reading the articles and then tell me you disagree and why, I would be truly delighted.
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How about a before and after pictures showing new construction in missle (misleading spell checker changed to) plant and plutonium plant.
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Simple solution - Trump should tell NK and China that the US will position a huge number of nukes in South Korea, with each targeted at a SK city. If China does not like US nukes at its doorstep, it can reign in fatboy.
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Simple solution - Trump should tell NK and China that the US will position a huge number of nukes in South Korea, with each targeted at a SK city. If China does not like US nukes at its doorstep, it can reign in fatboy.
This sort of solution stops making sense once you leave the bar and begin to sober up.
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This sort of solution stops making sense once you leave the bar and begin to sober up.
Why? We can't get China to play ball on this one because NK nukes weaken the US. Give them something to gain and they might play ball.
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Simple solution - Trump should tell NK and China that the US will position a huge number of nukes in South Korea, with each targeted at a SK city. ...
...Why?...
Given you meant NK not SK there isn't a tactical or strategic difference between 1 nuke and 100; between having them launch from a ship/plane or land.
The trump administration has to face the fact that they paid ransom - everything NK received: status, cancelled military exercises, free trip to Singapore, was in return for hostages. And now we can expect more people to be taken hostage and since there are no consequences more people dead like Warmbier. All this theater has only weakened the US position RE sanctions which has left the us in a worse position then we were in 2016. Our options (as you have pointed out previously) are disastrous military options or do nothing and call it a success, Nobel Prizes for everyone! I'm guessing this administration will pick option 2 and then distract us all with some new, incredibly weird situation we never even considered possible before now, and as we blink at our monitors trying to process the news of some other touchstone of civil decency melting away we all will forget all about North Korea.
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WTW, it is evident that you read news thoroughly on a daily basis. Would you be so kind as to list the ones you read daily so that the rest of us can also get this information.
Thank You
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Given you meant NK not SK there isn't a tactical or strategic difference between 1 nuke and 100; between having them launch from a ship/plane or land.
You're right, it was a word-o.
Countries get bent out of shape with nukes in their back yard, even though the US can ICBM anyone, anywhere, anytime. Just look at how upset Kennedy got with the missiles in Cuba.
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Simon Dog :thumbup;
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Given you meant NK not SK there isn't a tactical or strategic difference between 1 nuke and 100; between having them launch from a ship/plane or land.
You're right, it was a word-o.
Countries get bent out of shape with nukes in their back yard, even though the US can ICBM anyone, anywhere, anytime. Just look at how upset Kennedy got with the missiles in Cuba.
Cuba? So China is the US, SK is Cuba and we're the Soviet Union in this scenario and china is supposed to see SK short range nuke capable missiles as a lightning strike threat ... nah. It would be pointless bluster which probably means that it is Trump's preferred option.
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Cuba? So China is the US, SK is Cuba and we're the Soviet Union in this scenario and china is supposed to see SK short range nuke capable missiles as a lightning strike threat ... nah. It would be pointless bluster which probably means that it is Trump's preferred option.
That sums it up nicely.
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WTW, it is evident that you read news thoroughly on a daily basis. Would you be so kind as to list the ones you read daily so that the rest of us can also get this information.
Thank You
Not a problem, Jean.
This is not an exhaustive list, but here goes:
New York Times (leans slightly left)
Reuters (considered highly reliable and unbiased)
Business Insider
Wall Street Journal (leans right)
The Economist
NPR (Leans slightly left)
BBC
To a more limited extent:
Fox (for balance and to see what others are watching - leans far right and considered unreliable)
CNN (considered less reliable and leans somewhat left))
Reason (skews far right)
I rarely watch network TV, but the three major networks are considered fairly reliable. I just prefer to read the news.
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Thanks WTW
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SK is not stupid. Giving up nukes puts them in a position of subservience to the US and is not going to happen without a war.
In the long run, the US has two choices - accept NK as a member of the nuke club that is not going to disarm, and respect them as such, or war. There are no other options.