I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Off-Topic => Political Debates - Thick Skin Required for Entry => Topic started by: Gerald Lively on June 14, 2014, 08:14:21 PM
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The fascist leader (Tea Party) guru lost in a primary election. Repeat: in a primary election. He is out. Gone. Down the toilet. I'm so sad, naaaaaw!
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The fascist leader (Tea Party) guru lost in a primary election. Repeat: in a primary election. He is out. Gone. Down the toilet. I'm so sad, naaaaaw!
Hmmm, fascist? Interesting. Europe has folks on the Right that are fascists and totalitarian. Europe has folks on the Left who are communist and totalitarian. America uses the same terms, Left and Right, but they do not have the same meaning as in Europe. The American left is liberal with socialist leanings and wanting big government solutions. The Right is the conservative side looking at the private sector as the best place for financial security.
It is funny that you call Eric Cantor a Tea Bagger. Sorry, he lost to the Tea Party candidate in the election.
What is out for this year is immigration reform, i,e, amnesty. Lastly, the Tea Party is for very limited government and constitutional representation. That is the exact opposite of fascism Gerald. But have your own way.
Lastly, I hope all is going well, take care,
Peter
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In a more serious academic approach; fascism is notable for its non-inclusive practices and laws limiting resources to people different from the favored class. Add an association with corporate interests so strong that corporations and government make policy, and you have fascism. A totalitarian approach is not necessary in the definition of fascism. An oligarchy will suffice.
If you need to see how and why this fascist agenda is unfolding I can supply you with the Koch Bros published platform from 1980 and the January 20, 2009 Republican meeting to initiate this agenda, but it is very long.
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In a more serious academic approach; fascism is notable for its non-inclusive practices and laws limiting resources to people different from the favored class. Add an association with corporate interests so strong that corporations and government make policy, and you have fascism. A totalitarian approach is not necessary in the definition of fascism. An oligarchy will suffice.
If you need to see how and why this fascist agenda is unfolding I can supply you with the Koch Bros published platform from 1980 and the January 20, 2009 Republican meeting to initiate this agenda, but it is very long.
Gerald, the Koch brothers are small potatoes compared to George Soros and the Democratic minions marching ahead of Obama. The Koch brothers are by far NOT the biggest political spenders.
Secondly, looking at your definition of fascism, which is different than the European definition I would add, you likewise overlook the direct connection with Obama and HIS groupies in the corporate world.
If you want to state that all these politicians on both the GOP and DEM side of affairs are corrupt, well yes, that is where it is at isn't it. If you want to state that both sides wish to split and divide us against them at the peon level you and I operate in, then yes, I agree.
The point is this, why do you so vigorously attack "Teabaggers" yet overlook the much larger corporate support on the left? You are falling prey to the puppet masters yourself.
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Doc:
You argue micro points when the discussion is on a macro level. A few responses to your post:
1. Soros supports Democrats and does not have strings attached to his contributions.
2. Fascism, as defined in contemporary political science terms, is at our doorstep. What Europeans think is beside the point.
3. Fascism does not hold citizens as a first priority. Congress is probably corrupt and I could make a case for that too.
4. The Tea Party (teabaggers) are an extension of the John Birch Society. The Koch family had their hands in both.
5. Teabagger is a legitimate word.
6. I do not belief I exempted the Obama administration from my post.
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HemoDoc: Here is one aspect of fascism in America:
Last year, the DoD's Minerva Initiative funded a project to determine 'Who Does Not Become a Terrorist, and Why?' which, however, conflates peaceful activists with "supporters of political violence" who are different from terrorists only in that they do not embark on "armed militancy" themselves. The project explicitly sets out to study non-violent activists:
"In every context we find many individuals who share the demographic, family, cultural, and/or socioeconomic background of those who decided to engage in terrorism, and yet refrained themselves from taking up armed militancy, even though they were sympathetic to the end goals of armed groups. The field of terrorism studies has not, until recently, attempted to look at this control group. This project is not about terrorists, but about supporters of political violence."
I contacted the project's principal investigator, Prof Maria Rasmussen of the US Naval Postgraduate School, asking why non-violent activists working for NGOs should be equated to supporters of political violence and which "parties and NGOs" were being investigated but received no response.
Similarly, Minerva programme staff refused to answer a series of similar questions I put to them, including asking how "radical causes" promoted by peaceful NGOs constituted a potential national security threat of interest to the DoD.
Among my questions, I asked:
"Does the US Department of Defense see protest movements and social activism in different parts of the world as a threat to US national security? If so, why? Does the US Department of Defense consider political movements aiming for large scale political and economic change as a national security matter? If so, why? Activism, protest, 'political movements' and of course NGOs are a vital element of a healthy civil society and democracy - why is it that the DoD is funding research to investigate such issues?"
According to Prof David Price, a cultural anthropologist at St Martin's University in Washington DC and author of Weaponizing Anthropology: Social Science in Service of the Militarized State, "when you looked at the individual bits of many of these projects they sort of looked like normal social science, textual analysis, historical research, and so on, but when you added these bits up they all shared themes of legibility with all the distortions of over-simplification. Minerva is farming out the piece-work of empire in ways that can allow individuals to disassociate their individual contributions from the larger project."
Prof Price has previously exposed how the Pentagon's Human Terrain Systems (HTS) programme - designed to embed social scientists in military field operations - routinely conducted training scenarios set in regions "within the United States."
Citing a summary critique of the programme sent to HTS directors by a former employee, Price reported that the HTS training scenarios "adapted COIN [counterinsurgency] for Afghanistan/Iraq" to domestic situations "in the USA where the local population was seen from the military perspective as threatening the established balance of power and influence, and challenging law and order."
One war-game, said Price, involved environmental activists protesting pollution from a coal-fired plant near Missouri, some of whom were members of the well-known environmental NGO Sierra Club. Participants were tasked to "identify those who were 'problem-solvers' and those who were 'problem-causers,' and the rest of the population whom would be the target of the information operations to move their Center of Gravity toward that set of viewpoints and values which was the 'desired end-state' of the military's strategy."
Such war-games are consistent with a raft of Pentagon planning documents which suggest that National Security Agency (NSA) mass surveillance is partially motivated to prepare for the destabilising impact of coming environmental, energy and economic shocks.
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http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jun/12/pentagon-mass-civil-breakdown
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Here are just a few excerpts of the Libertarian Party platform that David Koch ran on in 1980:
We urge the repeal of federal campaign finance laws, and the immediate abolition of the despotic Federal Election Commission.
We favor the abolition of Medicare and Medicaid programs.
We oppose any compulsory insurance or tax-supported plan to provide health services, including those which finance abortion services.
We also favor the deregulation of the medical insurance industry.
We favor the repeal of the fraudulent, virtually bankrupt, and increasingly oppressive Social Security system. Pending that repeal, participation in Social Security should be made voluntary.
We propose the abolition of the governmental Postal Service. The present system, in addition to being inefficient, encourages governmental surveillance of private correspondence. Pending abolition, we call for an end to the monopoly system and for allowing free competition in all aspects of postal service.
We oppose all personal and corporate income taxation, including capital gains taxes.
We support the eventual repeal of all taxation.
As an interim measure, all criminal and civil sanctions against tax evasion should be terminated immediately.
We support repeal of all law which impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws.
We advocate the complete separation of education and State. Government schools lead to the indoctrination of children and interfere with the free choice of individuals. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended.
We condemn compulsory education laws
and we call for the immediate repeal of such laws.
We support the repeal of all taxes on the income or property of private schools, whether profit or non-profit.
We support the abolition of the Environmental Protection Agency.
We support abolition of the Department of Energy.
We call for the dissolution of all government agencies concerned with transportation, including the Department of Transportation.
We demand the return of America's railroad system to private ownership. We call for the privatization of the public roads and national highway system.
We specifically oppose laws requiring an individual to buy or use so-called "self-protection" equipment such as safety belts, air bags, or crash helmets.
We advocate the abolition of the Federal Aviation Administration.
We advocate the abolition of the Food and Drug Administration.
We support an end to all subsidies for child-bearing built into our present laws, including all welfare plans and the provision of tax-supported services for children.
We oppose all government welfare, relief projects, and aid to the poor programs. All these government programs are privacy-invading, paternalistic, demeaning, and inefficient. The proper source of help for such persons is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals.
We call for the privatization of the inland waterways, and of the distribution system that brings water to industry, agriculture and households.
We call for the repeal of the Occupational Safety and Health Act.
We call for the abolition of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
We support the repeal of all state usury laws.
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So, Eric Canter is gone, do you think Boehner will go next or Obama? Or even Hillary? They all have my vote, to go away that is.
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Jean;
Will Cantor's demise change the political picture? Hmmmm!
Forecasting politics is risky business. Here are my observations; Moderate Republicans will be emboldened and GOP intra-mural fighting will become more intense.
The Tea Party is still a major factor and it still looks like a cancer on American democracy.
The informed Republican voter, and there are not that many, will reject the more radical candidates.
The mid-term voting this fall will tell us everything we need to know. The real question there is; will the Tea Party hold the line or begin to lose ground. I don't see the Tea Party gaining.
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Doc:
You argue micro points when the discussion is on a macro level. A few responses to your post:
1. Soros supports Democrats and does not have strings attached to his contributions.
2. Fascism, as defined in contemporary political science terms, is at our doorstep. What Europeans think is beside the point.
3. Fascism does not hold citizens as a first priority. Congress is probably corrupt and I could make a case for that too.
4. The Tea Party (teabaggers) are an extension of the John Birch Society. The Koch family had their hands in both.
5. Teabagger is a legitimate word.
6. I do not belief I exempted the Obama administration from my post.
Dear Gerald, I believe we agree on many more points than we disagree. However, definition of terms is probably at the heart of much of that disagreement making that important.
1) Teabaggers, well, at the micro level, I would be considered a "Teabagger" since I support limited government and constitutional freedoms. That is what I believe the term "Teabagger" refers in my own reference. If folks at a macro level wish to use those desires and that of the many small voices who are in agreement with that, I have no argument that there is much going on behind the scenes, but the underlying sentiment of a wide portion of the US population agrees with limited govenment and constitutional freedoms. I believe you are also within that framework of beliefs which then leads to question, the term Teabagger.
2) What Europeans think is not the point. The european definition of fascism is legitimate for a specific reason. That is called rightwing politics in Europe. Left wing politics in Europe is communism. Both are totallitarian. The moderates are those seeking limited freedoms within those two extremes. The American left and right are defined quite differently in this nation, yet you seem to be equating the American right with fascism. Sorry, the American right to me means the above, limited government and constitutional freedom. In Europe, that would be much more in line with a centrist view. Once again, defining of terms is all important if we are going to converse.
3) Totalitarrianism is much more worthwhile conversation in my opinion because of the difficulty of defining fascism, no one seems to agree on that, but totalitarianism is quite easy to see and represent. Bush removed many important constitutional freedoms, Obama has stayed on course and expanded what Bush started. How then are they different? Both are leading the US to a totalitarian society. One is considered on the right, the other on the left, but shucks the outcome for both is the same. It seems like they have achieved their principle goal, to divide and conquer and have peons like you and me arguing about fascism.
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I am a a pro-freedom individual, however, the teabaggers are an embarrassment because they seem to think that "freedom" means being "free to live in a theocratic state".
The tea party and republicans constantly stand for things like limiting abortion access; keeping references to god in public functions; opposing gay marriage; opposing medical and legal marijuana; and supporting "traditional values" by saying that government should not interfere with you life unless, of course, you choose a lifestyle other than that preferred by overweight middle aged white republicans. Democrats score higher in the "lifestyle freedom" (unless your lifestyle involves playing with assault rifles at the local gun club), but are the party of those who receive transfer payments, not those who work for a living.
In other words, each is a party of freedom but only in on dimension - economic or social.
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I am a a pro-freedom individual, however, the teabaggers are an embarrassment because they seem to think that "freedom" means being "free to live in a theocratic state".
The tea party and republicans constantly stand for things like limiting abortion access; keeping references to god in public functions; opposing gay marriage; opposing medical and legal marijuana; and supporting "traditional values" by saying that government should not interfere with you life unless, of course, you choose a lifestyle other than that preferred by overweight middle aged white republicans. Democrats score higher in the "lifestyle freedom" (unless your lifestyle involves playing with assault rifles at the local gun club), but are the party of those who receive transfer payments, not those who work for a living.
In other words, each is a party of freedom but only in on dimension - economic or social.
Sorry, you don't know what you are talking about. As a so called "Teabagger" I don't at all support a Theocratic state. Far from it. I suspect you don't understand the origin of separation of church and state coming from the very first Baptist church in America in Rhode Island. Separation of church and state is a religious idea my friend to protect the church from the government.
Far from a theocracy, yes, I oppose abortion as do a large portion of the population. And I don't support legalized pot or gay marriage.
However, I recognize that America is a democracy and is no longer a godly nation much to our demise. I am also aware that legislating morality does not work. However if supporting traditional values is somehow subversive, oh well, that is the new America I guess.
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When the Tea Party is in action, they promulgate hate. Hate is a strong word. I hate that there are those who are out to destroy the American way of life. The Koch Brothers provided a written example in the Libertarian platform of 1980. The John Birch Society has been seen recently spread myths such as "child vaccinations cause disease" as they lean towards fascism. Then there is the Tea Party! What follows is a Tea Party plan to destroy government under a Democrat, worse, a black President.
I think today we should all remember that on January 20, 2009 (inauguration day) GOP House Leaders & GOP Senators plotted to sabotage the US Economy along with failed candidate for President, Newt Gingrich, and GOP Propaganda Minister Frank Luntz; in other words, the Tea Party made a plan.
FACT 1. In Robert Draper's book, "Do Not Ask What Good We Do: Inside the U.S. House of Representatives" Draper wrote that on inauguration night, 2009, during a four hour, "invitation only" meeting with GOP Hate-Propaganda Minister, Frank Luntz, the below listed Senior GOP Law Writers literally plotted to sabotage, undermine and destroy America's Economy.
FACT 2: Draper wrote the guest list included:
The Guest List:
Frank Luntz - GOP Minister of Propaganda
Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI)
Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA)
Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA),
Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX),
Rep. Jeb Hensarling (R-TX),
Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-MI)
Rep. Dan Lungren (R-CA),
Sen. Jim DeMint (SC-R),
Sen. Jon Kyl (AZ-R),
Sen. Tom Coburn (OK-R),
Sen. John Ensign (NV-R) and
Sen. Bob Corker (TN-R).
Non-lawmakers present Newt Gingrich - Failed GOP candidate for President
FACT 3: Newt Gingrich confirms meeting took place in an interview with Al Sharpton's Politics Nation on June 12, 2012
SHARPTON: In fact, let`s go to a book that Mr. Draper wrote about the night of the inauguration. There was a meeting at a hotel near the inaugural ball, about a mile away ... He writes about that night the plan was to show united and unyielding
opposition to the president`s economic policies ... And Draper writes that you told the group -- you, Newt Gingrich, "You will remember this day...you will remember this day the seeds of 2012 were sown."
FACT 4: Two months after Paul Ryan's covert meeting where they plotted to sabotage the US Economy, in March 2009, Rep. Pete Sessions said Republicans should follow the model of the Taliban in its battles against President Obama.
In the March 2009 interview with National Journal Rep Sessions said:
PETE SESSIONS: "Taliban Insurgency, we understand perhaps a little bit more because of the Taliban. Insurgency is the way they went about systematically understanding how to disrupt and change a person's entire processes. And these Taliban -- is an example of how you go about to change a person from their messaging to their operations to their frontline message. And we need to understand that Insurgency may be required when [dealing with] the other side"
~Rep Pete Sessions, March 2009 to National Journal
FACT 5: Also, at the January 20, 2009 meeting they plotted to suddenly stop supporting any Stimulus Legislation, even though, they all supported Bush/Cheney Stimulus legislation. At the meeting, Rep Kevin McCarthy said
KEVIN McCARTHY: "We've gotta challenge them on every single bill. Show united and unyielding opposition to the presidents economic policies."
FACT 6: Remember, these same Republican members of Congress supported the very Bush/Cheney policies that caused America to teeter on the brink of the 2nd Great Depression and caused the 2007 US Economic Meltdown.
Every one of these Senior members of Congress have threatened Government Shutdown over things like:
- Funding planned parenthood,
FACT 8: Meanwhile, the 2009 Sabotage the U.S. Economy covert meeting members, Senators: Jim DeMint, Jon Kyl, Tom Coburn, John Ensign, and Bob Corker have:
- Filibustered more Bills (over 300) than any Congress combined in US History.
- Voted NO on every single piece of Legislation brought to the Floor including:
NO on Al Franken's Anti-Rape Amendment,
NO on Lilly Ledbetter,
NO on Fair Pay Act,
NO on Anti-Outsourcing Bill (2010)
FACT 9: The House members who attended the 2009 Sabotage America meeting have been busy rejecting legislation that helps victims of natural disaster.
Representatives: Paul Ryan, Eric Cantor, Kevin McCarthy, Rep. Pete Sessions, Jeb Hensarling, Pete Hoekstra and Dan Lungren have voted NO on every single piece of Legislation including:
NO on increasing FEMA during natural disasters.
FACT 10: Paul Ryan and these other same failed Congressmen have been on tv constantly chanting the lie that they were guilty of ... the lie that "President Obama's policies undermine the US Economy."
FACT 10: Paul Ryan and these other same failed Congressmen have been on tv constantly chanting the lie that they were guilty of ... the lie that "President Obama's policies undermine the US Economy."
FACT 11: Other Legislation used to sabotage US Economy
Paul Ryan and the Republicans in Congress refused to negotiate or even discuss passing President Obama's American Jobs Act that independent economists claim would create 1.3 million new jobs.
FACT 12: Paul Ryan and Republicans blocked President Obama's 2012 Anti-Outsourcing Bill - which is a Bill to discourage the outsourcing of American jobs. Naturally, journalists in India celebrated GOP efforts to undermine American Workers.
FACT 13: The Washington Post reported that Republicans have made it clear that the Federal Reserve would face fierce Republican criticism if it takes further actions to stimulate the economy before the election. The Washington Post wrote that,
Republicans... have expressed deep concern about measures taken by the Fed to support the economy -- and could be doubly upset if new efforts goose the stock market and are perceived to work in favor of President Obama's re-election.
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Yup, we are haters, rapists, racists, bigoted, ignorant, backward people. Yup, that is us. Well, have fun. It seems that is where this is heading. Have a great day Gerald, I guess you don't really want to debate much of anything. Oh, and let me get back to the American theocracy action group so that we can deny everyone religious tolerance and get rid of the separation of church and state as well as ban gay marriage again.
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Doc: Ya see Doc, I was trained to be a political scientist plus a minor in Small Group Dynamics. If you expect patients to listen to you, then you should listen to me.
Or, you can stick your head in the sand.
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Doc: Ya see Doc, I was trained to be a political scientist plus a minor in Small Group Dynamics. If you expect patients to listen to you, then you should listen to me.
Or, you can stick your head in the sand.
Gerald, when you are really interested in debating these issues, I am more than happy to have a frank discussion but simply spreading propaganda and falsehoods about so called Teabaggers is not of much interest.
Until then, I hope all is well with you.
Have a great Father's Day,
Peter
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This is most fascinating to read...
There is one point I beg to differ:
According to sociological studies, Fascisme is mainly a state of mind and not that much of a "political party" and the same goes for communisme...
... and if we very carefully compare the two, there is hardly any difference, except for the so-called different "moral claims" ...
... that's just my :twocents; as a European...
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This is most fascinating to read...
There is one point I beg to differ:
According to sociological studies, Fascisme is mainly a state of mind and not that much of a "political party" and the same goes for communisme...
... and if we very carefully compare the two, there is hardly any difference, except for the so-called different "moral claims" ...
... that's just my :twocents; as a European...
Fascism and Communism end in the same type of totalitarianism. The American right and left are different than the European right and left. Classically, the American left is liberal based and the American right is conservative based.
I have no doubt that on the political spectrum from complete freedom with no government structure, i.e., anarchy and the other end of the spectrum totalitarian authority, America started with the Articles of Confederation which were not much of a step beyond anarchy and they failed. The original Federal Constitutionalists were a bit to the "left" of the Articles of Confederation, but were very much into a limited and restrained government where freedom was defined by the people and by the states. By our current American definitions of the "left" and the "right," that time period politically was far to the right of center in the restraint against a large and intrusive government.
Ever since, we have moved incessantly to the left with larger and more intrusive government powers at the state, federal, county and city levels. I am afraid that the founding fathers would not in any sense recognize the mess we have today with an all intrusive government that deems the Bill of Rights as a nuisance to overcome instead of protections of God given rights.
Both the GOP and the Dems, the two prevailing parties are far to the left of our historical "center." Both parties while in power in congress or in the White House have usurped the freedoms given to us by God and guaranteed in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Anyone over the age of 50 can account incredible freedoms compared to the kids of today. In the last 50 years, the amount of rules and regulations promulgated at federal, state, county and city levels is by far staggering to say the least.
If we want to talk about the factions of the elite who wish to further consolidate their own power and usurp our freedoms enslaving us as serfs once again, then Gerald, whey are you stopping with the Koch brothers. I could if I felt bothered to do so produce the same sort of draconian actions on the "left" within the Democratic Party.
BOTH, well, perhaps ALL political parties have been corrupted by the love of money and power. What is your point Gerald? Are the Dems pure of the same maleficence that you lay at the feet of the Koch brothers and the GOP? Sorry, but if all you wish to do is to bash Teabaggers, then you are simply espousing liberal propaganda and whose head is really in the sand my friend?
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Sorry, you don't know what you are talking about. As a so called "Teabagger" I don't at all support a Theocratic state. Far from it. I suspect you don't understand the origin of separation of church and state coming from the very first Baptist church in America in Rhode Island. Separation of church and state is a religious idea my friend to protect the church from the government.
Far from a theocracy, yes, I oppose abortion as do a large portion of the population. And I don't support legalized pot or gay marriage.
However, I recognize that America is a democracy and is no longer a godly nation much to our demise. I am also aware that legislating morality does not work. However if supporting traditional values is somehow subversive, oh well, that is the new America I guess.
Well, I suppose I should have said "theocratic light". The test I apply to references to God in governmental functions is "would the public accept a reference to Allah, Ganesh or Beelzebub in place of God?". In order to give all religions equal footing, perhaps the $1 bill should have "In God We trust", the $5 "Allah Snackbar", the $10 "Ganesh Rocks" and the $20 "this space intentionally left blank". There are plenty of other examples of govt endorsement of religion - for example, in NY it is illegal to sell beer before noon on Sunday ("church hours"), and MA has extra restrictions on trade during the sabbath (though these have been considerably reduced in recent years), and "under God" in the pledge was added by congress as an explicit endorsement of religion in the face of the godless commie threat.
The idea of separation of chuch and state has evolved from the early days when it was simply to protect churches form the govt - as currently interpreted by the courts, it also means the govt cannot endorse any specific religion, or even endorse no religion. Basically "hands off".
But, even though it does not relate to a theocratic state, the "oppose abortion; don't support legalized pot; and do not support gay marriage" does prove you are an example of a teabagger who believes the govt should be running individual's live for them (although inclusion of abortion in that list of mine is questionable, and there is a credible argument to be made that anti-abortion laws protect the innocent).
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Sorry, you don't know what you are talking about. As a so called "Teabagger" I don't at all support a Theocratic state. Far from it. I suspect you don't understand the origin of separation of church and state coming from the very first Baptist church in America in Rhode Island. Separation of church and state is a religious idea my friend to protect the church from the government.
Far from a theocracy, yes, I oppose abortion as do a large portion of the population. And I don't support legalized pot or gay marriage.
However, I recognize that America is a democracy and is no longer a godly nation much to our demise. I am also aware that legislating morality does not work. However if supporting traditional values is somehow subversive, oh well, that is the new America I guess.
Well, I suppose I should have said "theocratic light". The test I apply to references to God in governmental functions is "would the public accept a reference to Allah, Ganesh or Beelzebub in place of God?". In order to give all religions equal footing, perhaps the $1 bill should have "In God We trust", the $5 "Allah Snackbar", the $10 "Ganesh Rocks" and the $20 "this space intentionally left blank". There are plenty of other examples of govt endorsement of religion - for example, in NY it is illegal to sell beer before noon on Sunday ("church hours"), and MA has extra restrictions on trade during the sabbath (though these have been considerably reduced in recent years), and "under God" in the pledge was added by congress as an explicit endorsement of religion in the fact of the godless commie threat.
The idea of separation of chuch and state has evolved from the early days when it was simply to protect churches form the govt - as currently interpreted by the courts, it also means the govt cannot endorse any specific religion, or even endorse no religion. Basically "hands off".
But, even though it does not relate to a theocratic state, the "oppose abortion; don't support legalized pot; and do not support gay marriage" does prove you are an example of a teabagger who believes the govt should be running individual's live for them (although inclusion of abortion in that list of mine is questionable, and there is a credible argument to be made that anti-abortion laws protect the innocent).
Simon, it is simple etiquette to let me speak for myself.
Sorry, wrong again my friend. You continue to show complete ignorance of the Tea party. At the peon level that we are in, much in contrast to your failed understanding, we simply want the government off of our backs. When you add in the fact that many in the Tea Party movement, once again at the peon level, are Libertarian, then I guess you don't understand that they don't want government telling them what to do about ANYTHING. Drugs, sex, religion, motorcycle helmets, you name it, they just want to decide for themselves what they want to do.
Myself personally, yes, I am opposed to those things you list, but no, I don't want the government to tell folks what to do. On the other hand, I would rather that that this nation choose a godly path, but I am afraid America as a godly nation is long since past. You can't legislate morality, remember, I stated that above once already. I guess you weren't paying attention but it is interesting to see how biased folks views are against "teabaggers."
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In a more serious academic approach; fascism is notable for its non-inclusive practices and laws limiting resources to people different from the favored class. Add an association with corporate interests so strong that corporations and government make policy, and you have fascism. A totalitarian approach is not necessary in the definition of fascism. An oligarchy will suffice.
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HemoDoc: I posted facts, documented facts. Your dismissal of apparently uncomfortable facts is disingenuous.
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HemoDoc: You do not know what the writers of the Articles of Confederation had in mind nor do you know anymore about the US Constitution than what is written. We do know from the preambles of both the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence that this government was created for the people, by the people and of the people (Lincoln). Congress has lost sight of that purpose. Why? Look no further than far right conservatives and the Tea Party.
I documented for you, the genesis of obstructive politics, which you wrote off as "propaganda". You cannot deny history.
With respect to the Koch brothers, I provided you with a platform they wrote, which happens to be a public document, a platform for election to public office meant to be read by the public.
I submit that government has an obligation to serve the people of the United States first; not war, not oil subsidies, not farm subsidies, not NSA programs that violate the 4th amendment, and not programs that prepare this government for control of a revolt by its own citizens (see the beginning of this thread).
Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. If you are starving and are homeless, you can do none of these things. The people need healthcare, a safety net and somewhere to work. That may be food stamps and subsidized housing. This is yours and my obligation to the American people.
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Anyone over the age of 50 can account incredible freedoms compared to the kids of today.
If you had predicted any of the following 15 years ago, you would have been considered part of the tinfoil hat crowd:
- Secret US prisons overseas
- Secret dockets in every federal court
- Holding of US citizens by the military without a trial
- National Security Letters - subpoenas issued directly by law enforcement, that you cannot even disclose except to your attorney
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Anyone over the age of 50 can account incredible freedoms compared to the kids of today.
If you had predicted any of the following 15 years ago, you would have been considered part of the tinfoil hat crowd:
- Secret US prisons overseas
- Secret dockets in every federal court
- Holding of US citizens by the military without a trial
- National Security Letters - subpoenas issued directly by law enforcement, that you cannot even disclose except to your attorney
Sorry, why do you think that? The BIble predicted exactly the DIRECTION we are headed about 2000 years ago. I was saved in 1994 while I was in the military. Yes, we had those "tinfoil" hat conversations as you call it back in 1994 with the man who led me to The Lord. Not the specifics, but the direction, absolutely. Sadly, much more to come in that direction.
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Jesus was a Liberal.
If you have time, look up the names of the KJV translators. You will find my eight great grandfather.
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Jesus was a Liberal.
If you have time, look up the names of the KJV translators. You will find my eight great grandfather.
Yup, that line will work well Gerald. But, no, I would state categorically that The Lord would not put up with the nonsense in Washington D.C. today. But if you want to think of him as a liberal, go for it. Or perhaps I should reveal our secret Teabagger plans to have you arrested for making such an outlandish statement. Any black helicopters over head?
And yes, you have shown the connection in the past to the KJV. Wouldn't hurt to pick up that good book and read it if that is you don't already.
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On the other hand, I would rather that that this nation choose a godly path, but I am afraid America as a godly nation is long since past. You can't legislate morality, remember, I stated that above once already.
I, too, would like to see this nation choose a more godly path, but I fear that there are forces within that aim to distract us from the true evil that is afoot by hot debate about pot, abortion and gays.
I'd like to see more godly behavior from big banking, big pharma, big agriculture, big healthcare, big defense, big energy and big anything else that puts profit above responsible and moral and, yes, "godly" action.
I fear that we find ourselves HAVING to legislate morality because we can no longer trust anyone to refrain from defrauding and bullying and stealing from the most vulnerable of our citizens. We shouldn't have to have more rules and regulations. We WOULDN"T have to have so much red tape if more people with financial and political influence followed a more "godly" path. We shouldn't have to have hundreds of laws that protect people from abuse or retaliation or attack or discrimination or outright fraud and theft.
"Morality" goes far beyond matters of sex and drugs and rock and roll.
Like you, Hemodoc, I'm beginning to despair of the state of our nation. There just doesn't seem to be many people of power and influence who have good hearts. It makes me sad.
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But, no, I would state categorically that The Lord would not put up with the nonsense in Washington D.C. today. .
I agree with this. I would also state categorically that most Americans don't want to put up with the nonsense in DC today, and I don't care with which party one may be affiliated.
But if anyone is tired of it all, they have to go out and vote. We can't be complacent. That's what DC is counting on...the politicians and the lobbyists.
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Anyone over the age of 50 can account incredible freedoms compared to the kids of today.
If you had predicted any of the following 15 years ago, you would have been considered part of the tinfoil hat crowd:
- Secret US prisons overseas
- Secret dockets in every federal court
- Holding of US citizens by the military without a trial
- National Security Letters - subpoenas issued directly by law enforcement, that you cannot even disclose except to your attorney
Sorry, why do you think that? The BIble predicted exactly the DIRECTION we are headed about 2000 years ago. I was saved in 1994 while I was in the military. Yes, we had those "tinfoil" hat conversations as you call it back in 1994 with the man who led me to The Lord. Not the specifics, but the direction, absolutely. Sadly, much more to come in that direction.
I think that because, like many, I received my education in a public obedience indoctrination center (also known as a public school), and we were all taught innocent until proven guilty; everyone is entitled to a fair trial; and you are protected from govt searches unless law enforcement has probable cause and gets a warrant.
It doesn't take much of a tinfoil hat to suspect that the govt is behind Truecrypt shutting down, and the demise of Lavasoft (though no speculation is required for the later)
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Catholic school. I have knuckles shaped flat like one gets from corporal punishment with a ruler. "Gerald, you have too many infractions in the book for hands up." Everyday we prayed to the flag and said our prayers. I even remember when the Pledge of Allegiance was made with a Nazi salute.
Regarding the Minerva program, which you did not read, my military career was spent on loan to the NSA.
The Bible: Jesus instructed Christians to care for the sick, feed the hungry, and to pay unto Cesar what is Cesar's (taxes). Our constitution says similar virtues out to be followed. Only conservatives have difficulty with that. The very idea of government came from a belief that together we can survive better than as individuals. Only in modern times has the focus changed from the people to corporate interests. And where did that come from? Only the "people" are mentioned in the constitution. There isn't even a hot breath that says corporations.
HemoDoc likes European definitions of fascism, it suits his needs. Consider how Mussolini described fascism; "When government and Corporations join to make public policy." 'Tis you, Doc, who has succumbed to propaganda. A little introspective thing may reveal that you cannot do anything to advance your quality of life without government permission. You need a permit, payment of taxes, a certificate or registration, hells bells, driving on a road is not a right, it is a privilege.
On your corruption statement: Yes, Congress is corrupt. Examine the effect of campaign contributions. Have you noticed that most congressmen became millionaires "after" they are elected? And yes, the NSA has a record of everything you ever said on any device using electricity. During the 1980s I tried to leave the US, sailing, never to return. I couldn't get a passport on that basis, my clearance and experience was too much. In 1987 I quit, retiring at age 48.
HemoDoc, your perspective is too narrow and your history recollections are too recent. You need to sort out what is real from what is not.
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Dear Gerald, I have had a love of history for quite some time and in fact with one more class would have had a minor in history in college. How far back do you want to go?
Secondly, who stated I "liked" the definition of fascism pertaining to Mussolini. I simply wanted to have YOU define your terms. That is all since there are quite a few definitions of fascism available. In addition, I gave the perspective that the American right and the European right are two different things entirely. Conservatives once again are looking for limited governmental powers which is the opposite of fascism.
Thirdly, I have paid over a million dollars in taxes to date and counting. The conservative people I know pay their taxes. That is not what the issue is. The issue is what does this ungodly government do with those good monies? That is the debate not some sort of tax revolt issue. Spending is the issue.
Fourth, all you have spouted so far to all of my posts on this thread are left wing propaganda points. You have yet to engage in a debate on these issues. Who is narrow minded Gerald. As I have stated many times over, I am NOT defending the GOP in any manner. Yet instead of addressing the points I have made, you continue on some sort of crusade against the GOP. Oh well, what ever you wish, I guess I am simply serving as your sounding board.
As far as Jesus instructions. Quick question. How did God state He would provide for the sick, the hungry and the needy? Yes, through TITHES and OFFERINGS. Jesus never endorsed any government social program. Instead he looked men in their eyes and stated it was THEIR duty to give. If you look at the stats on congressional giving, the conservatives by far give more to charity than the DEMS. Just look at Mitt and Barack. Who gave more to charity year after year nothing to say of what Joe Biden gave. Yes, Dems are quite generous with OTHER peoples money, but not their own. Jesus would take great exception to that.
Who is it that runs soup kitchens throughout this nation? Look at the history of medical care in the US and who was it that provided care to the poor and diminished up until the time of Johnson's great society? Sorry, but your points are lacking in depth Gerald.
So, many Christians pay their taxes to Caesar AND give unto The Lord. I would venture to state that many liberals proclaim taking your money to soothe their consciences but in fact, do they give directly themselves. The people I know answer that affirmatively.
In addition, Jesus addressed the issue of taxes and who it is that Caesar taxes in the first place:
Matthew 17: 24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and sadi, Doth not your master pay tribute?
17:25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
17:26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
17:27: Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
So, historically, Jesus understand the benefits of withholding taxation to the friends of Caesar. Has anything changed today? The list of Obama contributors such as GE that paid nothing in taxes while earning billions of dollars shows that in fact nothing has changed. That is called cronyism. Obama is a master at it. Perhaps you would like to address those issues or perhaps you will just keep spewing left wing propaganda.
In any case, have a good day Gerald. It is my birthday tomorrow and I get as a special present to have a date with my favorite "little" girl tonight. She always cherishes these moments as do I. I would venture that is more important than anything that will follow on this thread tonight.
See you in the morning Gerald.
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HemoDoc: My participation in this thread ends here with this post.
Early on here, you dismissed an NSA program, Minerva (and a half-dozen related programs) as propaganda. There is no way possible to prove to you how wrong you are. Typical of the modern conservative, facts are to be avoided. Remember this, you heard it here and the day you discover that the local police are following you around town on a computer hooked into your cell phone, give me a call so I can say, "I told you so." Perhaps I will be gone by that time.
A government that doesn't trust its citizens is not a democracy and is doomed to fail.
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HemoDoc: My participation in this thread ends here with this post.
Early on here, you dismissed an NSA program, Minerva (and a half-dozen related programs) as propaganda. There is no way possible to prove to you how wrong you are. Typical of the modern conservative, facts are to be avoided. Remember this, you heard it here and the day you discover that the local police are following you around town on a computer hooked into your cell phone, give me a call so I can say, "I told you so." Perhaps I will be gone by that time.
A government that doesn't trust its citizens is not a democracy and is doomed to fail.
Oh baloney. Who said I dismissed anything. I have acknowledged BOTH sides are stealing our freedoms. You are voicing only a one sided argument. So be it. Not sure what you are trying to state since Obama and the Dems hold the power today and the NSA is bigger than ever under his time in office. In any case, have a great night Gerald.
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Cantor may have eaten it but most of us have never swallowed what obama :puke; has tried shoving down our throats tho, either. 'Nuff said.
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The list of Obama contributors such as GE that paid nothing in taxes
GE generates a huge amount of productivity, and pays salaries that are heavily taxed. To say GE "pays no taxes" is a somewhat irrelevant distinction.
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The list of Obama contributors such as GE that paid nothing in taxes
GE generates a huge amount of productivity, and pays salaries that are heavily taxed. To say GE "pays no taxes" is a somewhat irrelevant distinction.
Yeah right. I guess cronyism is OK if it is Democratic friends of the president but corruption if it is corporations or people friendly to the GOP such as the Koch brothers. Yeah right, irrelevant alright.
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The list of Obama contributors such as GE that paid nothing in taxes
GE generates a huge amount of productivity, and pays salaries that are heavily taxed. To say GE "pays no taxes" is a somewhat irrelevant distinction.
Yeah right. I guess cronyism is OK if it is Democratic friends of the president but corruption if it is corporations or people friendly to the GOP such as the Koch brothers. Yeah right, irrelevant alright.
Ooh, the hypocrisy of Liberal Progressives and their Co-Exist bumper stickers.. :rofl;
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The list of Obama contributors such as GE that paid nothing in taxes
GE generates a huge amount of productivity, and pays salaries that are heavily taxed. To say GE "pays no taxes" is a somewhat irrelevant distinction.
Yeah right. I guess cronyism is OK if it is Democratic friends of the president but corruption if it is corporations or people friendly to the GOP such as the Koch brothers. Yeah right, irrelevant alright.
It's not okay, but GE got out of paying taxes during the Bush administration as well. In fact, literally *everything* going on under Obama was going on under Bush. Were you complaining about it all then?