I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Off-Topic => Political Debates - Thick Skin Required for Entry => Topic started by: Rerun on January 30, 2014, 03:28:27 PM
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Amanda Knox lives in Seattle. She is the one accused of killing her female roommate in Italy in 2007.
If you have kept up with this story, do you think she is guilty?
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I dont know whether she is guilty or not but I think the Italian justice system is horrible . What a fiasco this whole thing has been. I do beleive in the concept of "double jeopardy" . Since she was set free and the original verdict thrown out for lack of evidence, that should be it. In this country she could NOT even be tried again . The Italian system is quite bizarre.
Let her go . She has been through enough. After what I have seen I wouldnt want to ever visit Italy.
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I've never been able to quite suss out what forensic evidence they have that specifically links her and her boyfriend to the murder, so the conviction seems to be unsafe. Before, the prosecutor claimed that they were having some sort of bizarre sex party and that the convicted murderer, Guede, was persuaded by them to kill Ms. Kercher. But now the prosecutor has changed the story, so that leaves more questions than answers.
I don't think the Italians really believe that there is any chance Knox will be extradited, especially un such an unsafe conviction, so I believe they are engaging in legal theatrics.
While it is true that in the beginning Knox's statements were all over the place, and while she did falsely accuse that bartender, that's not enough evidence for a conviction. Again, I haven't seen any forensic evidence. Maybe I've missed something, though.
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There was a case a few years ago where CIA agents (who have since been convicted in abstentia in Italian courts) kidnapped a subject in Italy and transferred him to Egypt to be tortured on behalf of the US.
Knox should be very concerned about Italy doing a similar snatch and grab as payback for the US operation.
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Guilty as sin! Should have to do everyone of her 28 years. What a grubby story and what a grubby individual.
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There was a case a few years ago where CIA agents (who have since been convicted in abstentia in Italian courts) kidnapped a subject in Italy and transferred him to Egypt to be tortured on behalf of the US.
Knox should be very concerned about Italy doing a similar snatch and grab as payback for the US operation.
Bit of a false analogy, don't you think? What do you think the political outcry would be if a girl who has been very much in the public eye was kidnapped by Italian secret agents off the streets of Seattle?
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Guilty as sin! Should have to do everyone of her 28 years. What a grubby story and what a grubby individual.
What is the forensic evidence? That's what I want to see.
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Oh, wait a minute. Why is this in the "Political Debates" forum? I don't want to be here; I just now noticed. Can I delete my posts? Sorry.
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Amanda Knox lives in Seattle. She is the one accused of killing her female roommate in Italy in 2007.
If you have kept up with this story, do you think she is guilty?
No, they already have the killer, a known burglar Rudy Guede. He was found at one time with an 11 inch knife during a home invasion. He is the only person with any physical evidence linking him to the crime. There is no physical evidence linking Amanda Knox. I believe you would have to find Knox not guilty if I was on a jury, but the Italian system is quite different.
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/merediths-killer-rudy-guede/
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It is difficult to say whether or not she is guilty or not...
She said she wanted to study the Italian language and culture ...
but she seems to have overseen the fact that Italy has many “unwritten social laws” of how young girls should behave,
especially young girls who live/travel without their parents... or family...
She is “guilty” of many “social mishaps” which made her guilty in the eyes of many Italian/Continental people...
First of all: despite the fact that she was in Italy, her behaviour (according to Italian standards) was rather the behaviour of a “lady of the night” ...
certainly not the behaviour of a “respectable girl” according to Italian “social etiqette” ...
She also lived (as a girl) in a disrespectable area and only seems to have used her own room to change her clothes ...
After the body of her dead flat-mate was discovered, she passionately kissed her current boyfriend publicly.
She could not give the dead girl at least one minute of respectful silent thought....
such a gesture would have been an absolute “humanitarian gesture”...
The fact that her friend was murdered in such a beastly way in the same flat did not seem to touch her in the least...
At first she was only asked to stay as a friend of the dead girl but her own strange behaviour implicated her...
she only seems to have started to be interested in the murder of her friend and flat-mate,
when she was being investigated herself ... but not before...
She can’t have studied or understood much of the Italian culture ...
and did not seem to have bothered either...
That reminds me of an observation I made once in Casablanca:
I saw three American girls walking in hot-pants and very tight t-shirts through the old market talking to each other.
They ignored completely, that a huge male crowd of Arabs followed them...
I would not like to know what happened to those three girls in one of those little dark side-roads...
There was nothing anyone could do, not even “go to the Police” because in Casablanca no one goes to the Police...
I myself was protected because I covered myself with a huge Jelabba and was hiding my long blond hair behind a scarf ...
I was wearing huge sunglasses and all that protected me well enough...
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It is difficult to say whether or not she is guilty or not...
She said she wanted to study the Italian language and culture ...
but she seems to have overseen the fact that Italy has many “unwritten social laws” of how young girls should behave,
especially young girls who live/travel without their parents... or family...
She is “guilty” of many “social mishaps” which made her guilty in the eyes of many Italian/Continental people...
First of all: despite the fact that she was in Italy, her behaviour (according to Italian standards) was rather the behaviour of a “lady of the night” ...
certainly not the behaviour of a “respectable girl” according to Italian “social etiqette” ...
She also lived (as a girl) in a disrespectable area and only seems to have used her own room to change her clothes ...
After the body of her dead flat-mate was discovered, she passionately kissed her current boyfriend publicly.
She could not give the dead girl at least one minute of respectful silent thought....
such a gesture would have been an absolute “humanitarian gesture”...
The fact that her friend was murdered in such a beastly way in the same flat did not seem to touch her in the least...
At first she was only asked to stay as a friend of the dead girl but her own strange behaviour implicated her...
she only seems to have started to be interested in the murder of her friend and flat-mate,
when she was being investigated herself ... but not before...
She can’t have studied or understood much of the Italian culture ...
and did not seem to have bothered either...
That reminds me of an observation I made once in Casablanca:
I saw three American girls walking in hot-pants and very tight t-shirts through the old market talking to each other.
They ignored completely, that a huge male crowd of Arabs followed them...
I would not like to know what happened to those three girls in one of those little dark side-roads...
There was nothing anyone could do, not even “go to the Police” because in Casablanca no one goes to the Police...
I myself was protected because I covered myself with a huge Jelabba and was hiding my long blond hair behind a scarf ...
I was wearing huge sunglasses and all that protected me well enough...
Lets not get into a "Blame the Victim " mentality. Women should not have to act a certain way or dress a certain way toi be "respectable" and not be harrassed. I realize other cultures see it differently but that still doesnt make it right. No one asks for harrassment just because they are living or dressing a certain way. The problem is the people who think they are entitled to harrass these women(or sometimes men) just because they are"asking for it".
Amanda Knox is not perfect or even someone I care about, but that still deosnt make the harrassment by the Italian presecutors right.
Also the reason we have the double jeopardy concept is to avoid presecutors being able to harass someone with constant retrials if they cant prove thier case the first time. Can you imagine our system if prosecutors could retry anyone over and over if they lost? Who could afford to pay lawyers over and over while the state has virtually unlimited resources to keep up th prosecution. Eventually anyone could be convicted of anything if the prosecutors had enough retries. Our system may not be perfect but it sure beats the moronic Italian system. (Maybe there is a reason they had fascists run the country when Musellini was in charge. Their justice system" smacks of fascism .)
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I only tried to explain the Italian mentality ... and I only mentioned it because “when in Rome do as the Romans do”...
You mentioned Mussolini... Before Mussolini Italy (like Germany and Spain) was riddled with unemployment and corruption...
one of the results was that many children and people were starving in the streets... they had lost their homes long ago ...
you don’t need an imagination to get the idea what these people (and children) went through.
It was very difficult for them to think rationally or logically in this situation...
Mussolini (like Hitler and Franco) promised to stop all that... they promised work and food for everyone...
... They also promised that there would be no more corruption...
Of course, as soon as people realized their fatal error, it was much too late
and these dictators had their secret police in every street everywhere and
anyone who said anything against the system was hardly ever seen again...
How sure can we all be that we would do “the right thing”
and that we would be in the right frame of mind to vote for the” right” party
if we had not been able to feed children or eat ourselves for a long time
and we had no home to go to and no hope to get any work ?
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If Amanda Knox lived in a disrespectable area, and if Amanda Knox was Meredith Kerchner's flatmate, then it follows that Kerchner lived in a disrespectable area, too. Has anyone in the Italian press, obviously the monitor of Italian social etiquette, ever examined the behavior of Miss Kerchner?
I've read much of the coverage of this case by the British tabloids, and just because they take glee in labeling Knox as a vixen doesn't make it true. What it does do, however, is make considered discussion of this case nearly impossible.
When I was around Knox's age, I joined a program put together by St. Louis University and studied in Madrid. Part of the fee I paid went toward room and board with a Spanish family, which was to be a valuable part of the experience. We were to have a roommate who was also part of the program, and we were to live with a family. For some reason, I was deemed to be "independent", and since there was an odd number of female students, I ended up living alone with an elderly widow. I was pretty much on my own, and I ended up being fair game for every horny Spanish male I came into even passing contact with. Riding to class on the Metro was a nightmare. One Saturday I was walking with the grandchildren of the lady who lived one building over. I was taking them for ice cream. I spied a group of young men walking toward us down the wide boulevard, and sure enough, as they got close to us, one of them reached out a hand to grab me. I grabbed him by the wrist and scratched his arm. I couldn't understand why I was so constantly molested. Even the adult son (who had a daughter only about 7 years younger than myself) of the woman I lived with would come up from Ciudad Real and pester me.
It wasn't until a few months passed that I realized what the problem was. It was the color of my clothing. Women in Madrid dressed in muted colors. Being from a hot climate like the American South, I wore lighter colors, and sometimes even bright colors. So I went shopping and bought a lot of dreadfully dull clothes, and I was then left in peace.
My point is that it is hard to study a culture unless you've spent some time there. Moroccan culture is so different from British culture that it seems to be a bit easier to be prepared before you leave the white cliffs of Dover.
OK. so let's say that Amanda Knox was not the pure virgin of Italian tabloid dreams. Perhaps she did indeed "seem" to feel this or "seem" to not feel that. I'm not sure that means she should be extradited to Italy to spend 28 years in prison.
The only forensic evidence that could possibly be used against her is the knife. Italian experts have said that the knife in question could not have made the wounds on the body. No other knife has been found. All evidence leads to the murderer who is already in prison due to a safe conviction.
The way the forensic material was handled means that an unsafe conviction is highly likely. No American court would convict her based on such evidence, and I highly doubt that any British court would convict her, either.
There is no chance that Amanda Knox will EVER be extradited from the US. I doubt that she would ever be willing to leave these shores, given what has happened to her abroad. So the Italian taxpayers can continue to fund the investigation and the case's journey to the Supreme Court, but it won't matter. However, if prosecutors can find physical evidence that actually links her to the murder, then that's another story entirely.
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I thought this article was kind of interesting. Just a different perspective and putting other perspectives into perspective. LOL!
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/31/opinion/burleigh-amanda-knox-verdict/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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Well, it is really quite simple. Looking at direct evidence forensically linking Knox, the answer is NONE. On the other hand, if you think someone has questionable behavior, instead of knocking "foxy Knoxy," who did indeed take great liberties of morality apparently on her trip, she did not have a habit of breaking into other people's homes armed with an 11 inch knife.
Seriously, there is NOT one shred of physical evidence even remotely suggesting that Knox was involved in any manner. On the other hand, there is overwhelming evidence that Rudy Guede perpetrated this murder alone during a burglary that turned into an opportunistic sexual assault and murder.
I would hate to have to go on trial and defend my bizarre behavior during a bad dialysis day. Shucks, there is not a jury in the US that would convict and if they did, the judge would throw out the verdict. This appears to be more of political gamesmanship between Italy and the US after Italy got such terrible media coverage of all the trials. If anyone should be indicted, it is the Italian jurisprudence system itself. Thank the Lord we have a vestige of justice remaining here in the US where you are innocent until proven guilty. What evidence is there whatsoever that proves her guilt? The answer is none whatsoever.
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I never believed she was guilty, or her ex-boyfriend. Meredith has (rightly or wrongly, I obviously didn't know the girl) been painted as a perfectly innocent young lady whilst Amanda has been painted as the kinkily seductive tramp who must have been repsonible ... look at how she brazenly kissed her boyfriend in front of the world's media when she should have been sobbing her heart out and banging her fists on the ground in a fit of grief ...
A friend of mine is Italian and she's very open about her dislike of Amanda and her belief that she's guilty. Her take on it is that Amanda seduced a good, solid, dependable Italian boy and made him help her kill her flatmate. Motive? She has no idea, but thinks it might have been jealousy. We've had a lot of interesting discussions about it when we should have been working hard. ;D
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Hmmm,
Here is a very interesting site that looks like it is from the victims family. Much information I have never heard before reported in the US media. Looks like there is DNA evidence and other aspects of this case glossed over by the US media. Well, shucks, opens up a can of worms to say the least for Amanda Knox if all is a factual representation.
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/harvard_professor_alan_dershowitz_and_philly_lawyer_ted_simon/
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I never believed she was guilty, or her ex-boyfriend. Meredith has (rightly or wrongly, I obviously didn't know the girl) been painted as a perfectly innocent young lady whilst Amanda has been painted as the kinkily seductive tramp who must have been repsonible ... look at how she brazenly kissed her boyfriend in front of the world's media when she should have been sobbing her heart out and banging her fists on the ground in a fit of grief ...
. ;D
... No one asked her to display “operatic histrionics” because she happened to be in Italy...
As I have mentioned before, I have no idea whether or not she is guilty ... or not...
... but I would not dare to satirize of how she should or should not have behaved ...
... it would have been reassuring to see her showing some human emotions...
for example she could have spent a moment of thought for her murdered friend and flat-mate...
find out more what happened to her flat-mate...
asking how quickly she could get her belongings out of there and move to a secure place...
phone and ask the Embassy for assistance...
assist the police and other authorities with all the information etc. about everything she could remember ... etc.
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No MM you cannot delete your posts!
:rofl;
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There was a case a few years ago where CIA agents (who have since been convicted in abstentia in Italian courts) kidnapped a subject in Italy and transferred him to Egypt to be tortured on behalf of the US.
Knox should be very concerned about Italy doing a similar snatch and grab as payback for the US operation.
Bit of a false analogy, don't you think? What do you think the political outcry would be if a girl who has been very much in the public eye was kidnapped by Italian secret agents off the streets of Seattle?
Nothing about it is at all false.
1. The issue is national sovereignty. The US has a habit of ignoring the sovereignty of other nations when we have the firepower to do so.
2. The US ignored the sovereignty of Italy when our three letter boys did a snatch & grab in violation of Italy's laws. Although Italy went through the show of trying the CIA agents in absentia, it was not sufficiently annoyed to expel the US embassy, or close its US embassy.
3. Unlike Italy, the US did not afford those it grabbed in Italy any due process other than a govt official declaring them guilty (some offenses are so serious that pesky things like trials are not required).
4. The US is not alone in bypassing the extradition process. Israel grabbed the person who disclosed some its nuke secrets from Italy and dragged him back for trial via kidnapping rather than extradition. It is also not exclusively a govt thing - there was the case of the rapist who fled to Mexico and was kidnapped by Dog the bounty hunter.
Sure, there would be a public outcry - but not much the US could do if Italy did pull off a snatch and grab operation.
This woman should also be looking at the Canada extradition situation. If she is extraditeable from Canada, she should be worried about a trunk job.
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If Italy says she's guilty, then she just doesn't go to any of the European commonwealth countries, right?
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Here is an interesting interview with Alan Dershowitz. He didn't go so far as say he believes she is absolutely guilty, but he wouldn't want his son going out with her either. I think reading between the lines, he probably believes she is guilty.
http://www.newsmax.com/NewsmaxTv/alan-dershowitz-amanda-knox-murder-trial/2014/01/31/id/550244
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When I was around Knox's age, I joined a program put together by St. Louis University and studied in Madrid. Part of the fee I paid went toward room and board with a Spanish family, which was to be a valuable part of the experience. We were to have a roommate who was also part of the program, and we were to live with a family. For some reason, I was deemed to be "independent", and since there was an odd number of female students, I ended up living alone with an elderly widow. I was pretty much on my own, and I ended up being fair game for every horny Spanish male I came into even passing contact with. Riding to class on the Metro was a nightmare. One Saturday I was walking with the grandchildren of the lady who lived one building over. I was taking them for ice cream. I spied a group of young men walking toward us down the wide boulevard, and sure enough, as they got close to us, one of them reached out a hand to grab me. I grabbed him by the wrist and scratched his arm. I couldn't understand why I was so constantly molested. Even the adult son (who had a daughter only about 7 years younger than myself) of the woman I lived with would come up from Ciudad Real and pester me.
It wasn't until a few months passed that I realized what the problem was. It was the color of my clothing. Women in Madrid dressed in muted colors. Being from a hot climate like the American South, I wore lighter colors, and sometimes even bright colors. So I went shopping and bought a lot of dreadfully dull clothes, and I was then left in peace.
My point is that it is hard to study a culture unless you've spent some time there. Moroccan culture is so different from British culture that it seems to be a bit easier to be prepared before you leave the white cliffs of Dover.
I am very sorry MooseMum for your Spanish experiences and perhaps your College should have prepared you a little...
I don’t know in which year you went to Spain, but during the 1960’s, 1970’s and 1980’s Spain was still in trauma and mourning because of the thousands of victims of the Spanish Civil War... Everyone in Spain had lost relatives during the European political conflict which was “fought out” in Spain...
...there was the side of the fascists (Franco) and there was the side of the Anarchists (Buenaventura Durruti). The Anarchists who were led by Durruti were joined by many democrats, communists, socialists and thousands of exiles travelling to Spain as a last chance to “do something” against the fascists.
...Some of the most famous writers like George Orwell took part and he wrote his tribute in “My Catalonia”;
...Hemingway also wanted to “do his part” but he was not quite accepted because he was known to have betrayed his former mentor Gertrude Stein and that made him politically unreliable... Another important historian and writer who took active part was Augustin Souchy who worked for many papers and wrote books and many tributes to Spain... and there were many others...
Durruti and his men wanted to achieve for Spanish people/workers/farmers to be able to get work and food again...
...they wanted to set up communities in every village to give every village a chance to farm their land with proper agricultural equipment...
Durruti wanted to stop further exploitation of the poor and he wanted to achieve a democracy where everyone was able to make up their own mind
and assist to make decisions and no more dictatorship and exploitation as suggested by Franco...
After Durruti’s assassination things began to fall apart but many Spanish men had lost their life already...
...most of the exiles made a fatal mistake and went to the Sowjet Union, never to been seen again...
...it had become too difficult for them to travel to America... and most of the other borders were closed already...
...one of the only ways was over the lake of Constance to Switzerland, but Switzerland was too small for all these people with not enough work to be had...
Franco’s gunmen assassinated many of the remaining Spanish men who had survived the Spanish Civil War,
...especially the men who dared to disagree with anything Franco said ...
...Spain was in mourning from then on and most of the females were widows and – despite being very poor financially – they had to bring up their children without any help,
...without any father for the children, without provider, without grandfather, without uncles and many families were still split between “Francoists” and followers of Durruti...
...All the females were wearing as you say “dreadfully dull clothes” because they were still in trauma and mourning. They had never any help to get over this...
Even after Franco’s death in 1975 his many “underlings” were still lurking through Spanish police and official Spanish authorities for many years to come
... and for the Spanish population there was not much to celebrate about...
...they were wearing these dull colours as a respect for their many thousand dead and many of the dead soldiers were considered as martyrs
...because they never had a real chance to succeed, but they tried very hard all the same...
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I have never believed she was guilty of murder and there was no real evidence to prove it.
And slitting someone's throat is not a very female act... we tend to do things that are less bloodthirsty and distance us from the act.
I find the Italian legal system very strange that she can be re-convicted after winning an appeal on lack of evidence. There is a lot to be
said for the jury system (rather than the three judges) and i hope, if they do press for extradition that America refuses to hand her over.
That's my threepence worth...
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I agree with you, females have not been known for such ferocious attacks and murders...
...except when they acted under the influence of certain drugs...
... she admitted herself that she was taking drugs on a regular basis ...
and we don’t know what sort of drugs she really took on that particular night...
...we also don’t know what these drugs “did to her mind” on that particular occasion...
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Hmmm, a little Helter Skelter or Lizzy Borden perhaps. Yes, women have indeed committed violent crimes with and without drugs or other influences.
It is interesting that Alan Dershowitz, one of the leading advocates for the underdog wouldn't want his son dating Amanda. It is clear that she is the beneficiary of slanted American media. I had long heard that there was no evidence at all against her. Looking at European sources on this case, that may not be true at all. Nevertheless, it appears that getting rid of the American slant and looking at what the evidence really was against her presents a totally different side of this tragedy.
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Message was - by accident - "clicked twice" ... sorry...
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I agree with you hemodoc... and if by any chance Amanda Knox is innocent she certainly confused the issue by constantly contradicting herself ...
... and I would like to add that the behaviour of many females has deteriorated over the years ....
and many "traditional behaving females" are not respected any longer either...
whenever a gentleman opens a car- or an entrance door for me, I never forget to say “thank you” ... many females don’t bother to say “thank you” anymore...
There were always impressive scientists like Madame Curie who worked with her husband as a scientific team ...
...or Mileva Maric-Einstein who assisted in developing ground breaking theories in physics and is often portrayed as “Einstein’s student”
but she was an excellent student in physics and mathematics in her own right at the Zuerich Polytechnic (ETH)...
...or sculptresses like Camille Claudel whose sculptures were sold by Rodin as his own...
Whilst at University I came across “The Feminine Mystique” by Betty Friedan, “The Female Eunuch” by Germaine Greer or “The Second Sex” by Simone de Beauvoir...
...these authors left a rather confusing idea and I would like to know if they had a “hidden agenda”...
...that reminds me that many males - not bothering about females - and many females - not bothering about males - get married and “produce messed up” children ...
...I did not comprehend until I heard about their IVF treatment...
Whilst volunteering for a Charity I noticed how many females “picked my brains” or the "brains of the Charity" to get help to pass their exams...
...they did not appreciate the time and results of our studies we shared with them ... or the work of the Charity...
...and they did not donate a penny to the telephone costs of the Charity to make it easier and help many others with the same problem...
...mind you, I did not expect anything, but it would have been nice if they could have managed to let the Charity know the results of their exams...
Another fact is that in Britain males die much earlier and but is hardly ever mentioned ... and there is not much real practical help for males either...
... the suicide rate of males is also much higher in Britain ...
... People avoid coming across divorced fathers when they take their child/children for a walk, usually very early on Sunday mornings...
...sometimes these fathers can be heard on the phone begging for a little more time with their child/children...
... Some women can also be observed to walk “their Passport in a Pram” ... “
...producing” a "pram-result "(as it is generally known) grants them... not only the Passport but also a permamemt chance to settle in their "own house" ...
...without going out to work... whilst their ex-husband usually works unsocial hours to pay not only for the mortgage of the ex-wife's house ...
...and a heavy financial alimony... but he also has to rent a cheap little bedsit for himself ... and look after himself on his own...
Some women leave their husband and child/children for new adventures and often give Western females a terrible reputation...
...“whilst freeing themselves” ... not only during their holidays in Mediterranean climates, where people often take great care to observe more traditional relationships ...
...I am fully aware that there are terrible bruisers and nasty examples to be found amongst males as well...
...but the behaviour of many females has changed unrecognizably over the years...
...The question is: was it really worth it or has it gone too far?
The alcohol- and drug-consummation of many single females shows a different picture of many "modern females"...
...That is why I still have a big question mark over the “Amanda Knox case” ...
not only because of her many documented contradictions ...
...but also because so many people are “judging her” according to a very "traditional female image" ...
whereas she has not been known to behave in any "traditional female manner" of the “very olden days”...
Kristina.
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I don't think her contradictions or contrary behaviour necessarily make her guilty.
I guess we were all a little wilder when we were young or had spells of thinking we were cutting a new groove for ourselves!
But I still see a lot of examples of traditional female behavior around me ... and examples of gentlemanly behavior.
I value a lot of our traditional values and morals ... in fact, I do know people who live their (married) lives in what is termed the 1950 style.
Man goes out to work, woman keeps house, looks after children and man makes the decisions ....
I digress ... but the point is at 18 I believed in female equality and being independent, challenging traditional values.
Now i am (a little) older I no longer feel the same, I like living with a man who protects me, cares for me and makes the decisions when needed.
I like doors to be opened for me and being respected. I prefer to do the female things whilst a man does the other stuff because I am
physically more suited to them.
Some women will go on to equal men in various fields ... but not many remain so.
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Oh wow, so this thread has gone from discussing Amanda Knox to defining "female equality"? Really? OK, I can play that game.
I protect my husband, I care for him and I make the decisions when needed, while at the same time, my husband protects me, he cares for me and he makes the decisions when needed. Since when does it have to be and either/or proposition?
I like having doors opened for me, but I ALWAYS open the door for anyone who might be directly behind me. I have opened doors for many men; not many say "thank you". Just because a man opens a door for you doesn't mean you're "respected".
I do all of the "physical stuff" because I'm the one at home. I'm the one hauling broken limbs up the hill onto the curb so that the City picks them up. I'm the one dragging bags of mulch into the garden. I'm the one shoveling snow every other damn day because I'm the one "at home".
As for when I was younger, I was the first woman on the broking floor at the the insurance brokerage for which I worked. This was 1990 in the City of London, which was about the most macho environment in all of the UK at the time. So while it's true that I voluntarily gave up that job so that I could care for my son after he was born, I cut a new groove for other women who followed in my footsteps.
I truly despise that word "traditional" because it invokes this faux nostalgia, implying that somehow things were better when we were young. In the 1950s, I would have NEVER had the opportunity to work where I did. I would NEVER have had access to special educational services for my autistic child. In fact, autism wasn't even recognized in 1950; instead, I would have been deemed a "refrigerator mother".
As for Amanda Knox, if there is physical evidence that links her to the crime, and if the prosecution can build a case against her that proves her guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt (if that counts for anything in Italian jurisprudence), then fair enough. But if her "behavior" is all they have to go on, then convicting her would be ghastly. People who behave as if it were 1950 can still be guilty, just as people who don't behave like it's 1950 can still be innocent.
I am reading an awful lot of vast generalizations here on this thread! LOL!
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It is interesting that Alan Dershowitz, one of the leading advocates for the underdog wouldn't want his son dating Amanda.
So what? ???
Does anyone here remember the Louise Woodward trial? She was the young British nanny accused of killing the baby of the American couple she worked for. I was living in England at the time, and oh boy, did the Brits drag the entire US legal system AND Americans in general well and truly over the proverbial coals. Remember the linguistic palaver over how she had testified that she had "popped him up onto the bed"? Well, I knew what she meant, but the American defense did not. There was all sorts of microscopic examination of her "morals" and behavior. I was on a bus in Croydon when I overheard two couples talking about the trial (it was in its final day), and one man made a sweeping and derogatory comment about how the Americans want to convict her just because she was British. What is it about cases like these that make people go a bit loopy?
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It is interesting that Alan Dershowitz, one of the leading advocates for the underdog wouldn't want his son dating Amanda.
So what? ???
Does anyone here remember the Louise Woodward trial? She was the young British nanny accused of killing the baby of the American couple she worked for. I was living in England at the time, and oh boy, did the Brits drag the entire US legal system AND Americans in general well and truly over the proverbial coals. Remember the linguistic palaver over how she had testified that she had "popped him up onto the bed"? Well, I knew what she meant, but the American defense did not. There was all sorts of microscopic examination of her "morals" and behavior. I was on a bus in Croydon when I overheard two couples talking about the trial (it was in its final day), and one man made a sweeping and derogatory comment about how the Americans want to convict her just because she was British. What is it about cases like these that make people go a bit loopy?
Well shucks, you mean we don't agree on this one?
My initial impression from casually hearing about the case without doing a lot of digging into it was what I had heard, there is no evidence. I looked at some other sources after starting to discuss her case on this thread and it is clear that she is the beneficiary of very slanted and positive bias in the American media.
Yes, there actually is quite a bit of forensic evidence against her and her boyfriend including his DNA on the victims bra clasp and the victims DNA on a kitchen knife in his apartment. Then their bizarre behavior, her confession of "being there during the murder" and all of the contradictory statements. Then buying cleaning agents at 7 am the next morning when she claimed to be sleeping until 10 am or so. Well, shucks, that changes things a bit doesn't it. Maybe Italy did really get it right the last time around and the first time around. Just sayin, but I think there is some eye opening evidence and very biased American reporting.
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I love a good debate!
I don't think we have (or ever will) true equality.
But I don't hanker after it anymore.
Trying to have equality brings it's own problems...
All I would like to see is worldwide respect for women, particularly in The Middle East and India, and the black holes in our own country
where vulnerable young girls were abused for fun. Respect doesn't necessarily mean opening doors but just holding them in higher esteem.
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... Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized:
In the first, it is ridiculed,
in the second, it is opposed,
in the third, it is accepted as self-evident...
... and if we suspect that a man is lying, we should pretend to believe him;
for then he becomes bold and assured, lies more vigorously, and is unmasked
- Arthur Schopenhauer –
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I love a good debate!
I don't think we have (or ever will) true equality.
But I don't hanker after it anymore.
Trying to have equality brings it's own problems...
All I would like to see is worldwide respect for women, particularly in The Middle East and India, and the black holes in our own country
where vulnerable young girls were abused for fun. Respect doesn't necessarily mean opening doors but just holding them in higher esteem.
Sure, I'd love to see worldwide respect for women, but I'd like to see worldwide respect for everyone, for children, for immigrants, for people of different religious beliefs, for the poor, for the ill, for the unemployed, for dialysis patients. The list goes on and on. I'm not sure that men are respected any more than women, if you are talking in general terms. I don't have a blanket respect for men just because they are men. Men sure don't respect each other men just because they are men!
Anyone "trying to have equality" will endure obstacles, but is that reason to become lazy and try no more? You are able to vote because other women overcame the problems of "trying to have equality".
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Hmmm, is this the Amanda Knox thread or did I get lost?
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Hmmm, is this the Amanda Knox thread or did I get lost?
It's a typical IHD thread where we veer wildly off topic! I think it went from Amanda Knox's re-conviction to how she didn't behave as a traditional Italian woman to the perceived decline of women's behavior in general and then to how women have never been and never will be equal to men because to demand equality is just too much like hard work. Or something like that... LOL!
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Hmmm, is this the Amanda Knox thread or did I get lost?
It's a typical IHD thread where we veer wildly off topic! I think it went from Amanda Knox's re-conviction to how she didn't behave as a traditional Italian woman to the perceived decline of women's behavior in general and then to how women have never been and never will be equal to men because to demand equality is just too much like hard work. Or something like that... LOL!
I don't think demanding equality is too much hard work
I think when we are young we believe in it (I remember wearing a sweatshirt at 18 with the slogan "Anything boys can do, girls can do better"... )
I had a career and I happily worked long hours. Made some money.
Then....
along came a baby. And this is where inequality starts. As well as a change in mindset.
We are genetically programmed to care for our young and this affects our future decisions. And our inability to continue the same lifestyle.
Some women manage it, but at a price.
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along came a baby. And this is where inequality starts. As well as a change in mindset.
In my case, it was along came dialysis and then a change in mindset.
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)
I had a career and I happily worked long hours. Made some money.
Then....
along came a baby. And this is where inequality starts. As well as a change in mindset.
We are genetically programmed to care for our young and this affects our future decisions. And our inability to continue the same lifestyle.
Some women manage it, but at a price.
I guess this is true if you do not believe that caring for a baby has value. I suppose you are right if you feel that making money is what makes you "equal".
Sure, caring for a child affects our future decisions, but for men, having a child affects THEIR decisions, too. Suddenly, they become the sole breadwinner. Suddenly, they lose a large portion of totally family income. They may not be able to continue the same lifestyle, either, because income is slashed and costs suddenly skyrocket.
My mom worked when I was little, and it was during a time when women with young children traditionally stayed at home. I, on the other hand, cut short my career and stayed at home. Doing so never made me feel "unequal". I don't understand that mindset.
I am not sure if you are talking about social inequality or income inequality, or if, in fact, the two actually dovetail.
One thing is for sure...Amanda Knox's lifestyle sure has some enormous limits nowadays!
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along came a baby. And this is where inequality starts. As well as a change in mindset.
In my case, it was along came dialysis and then a change in mindset.
And there it is...putting things into perspective. :clap;
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Very true :)
I guess what I was trying to say was that my lifestyle, work,business, etc was suddenly irrelevant ...and of lesser importance.
My daughter became my focus. The one that I put first before anything.
I had 4 children and I never regret being a stay at home mum because I believe it matters to children, to have a parent there for them.
If they're lucky two parents!!!
I guess I expected to pick up my career once they were all in their teens but life had a final twist to play first.
Kidney failure, dialysis and failed transplants...
Oh the best laid plans of mice and men...
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Hmmm, is this the Amanda Knox thread or did I get lost?
Thank you Hemodoc and thanks for the information above...
...I mentioned Schopenhauer because he studied the logic not only of the French philosophers,
but also the thoughts of many Italian philosophers like Giordano Bruno before he developed and wrote down his own theories...
(...and there are many Italian philosophers worth studying ...and many Italians study part of the thoughts of their philosophers as common knowledge...
...I mentioned Schopenhauer’s thoughts on “and if we suspect that a man is lying, we should pretend to believe him;
for then he becomes bold and assured, lies more vigorously, and is unmasked”... because that is how the Italian police
approached Amanda Knox and her current boyfriend during the interviews (they pretended to believe everything) ...
... whilst they recorded every single word of the interviews and slowly unmasked the contradictions and lies...
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because that is how the Italian police approached Amanda Knox and her current boyfriend during the interviews (they pretended to believe everything) ... whilst they recorded every single word of the interviews and slowly unmasked the contradictions and lies...
Anyone who is going to be questioned (in addition to retaining legal counsel) should first read the classic works by Inbau and Reid on police interrogation techniques. Fascinating material, and it gives a bit of insight as to what techniques will be used against you, the suspect.
As to her guilt or innocence - I have no idea. It is interesting how people who hear news summaries can be certain that they can arrive at a more accurate conclusion than a court that has heard a weeks long trial.
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... if you tell the truth,
you don’t have to remember anything...
Mark Twain
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But sometimes the truth sounds more guilty than fiction ...
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... only very rarely....