Should I get involved

[Sluff]

Boxman you have concern for Stuart enough that it must really Bother you.

I don't know if I would have pursued this as much as you have, you are a special person for doing so. I think one last gesture you could try is ask the nurses if you would write a letter to Stuart could they forward it if you pre stamp it to him by snail mail. Write a lengthy letter explaining to him that you care and would appreciate correspondence if he felt open to doing so. I dunno but one last ditch effort I guess.. maybe a christmas card from a concerned friend at the clinic?

[Wattle]

you are a special person

I second that!   

[paris]

Boxman, you are such a good person.  Poor Stuart. His life must not be very good. You have certainly reached out and tried to help him.   I think we all agree that you have been a very good samaritan; a great role model for all of us.

[angela515]

I guess I am the only one with a different view on this. I don't know how old this guy is, but whatever his age, he is an adult and can make up his own mind and his brother has no right to force him to go to dialysis if he doesn't wish to. I'm sorry but when it's my time to go back on dialysis and if i'm ready to go... let me go.. I won't stand for anyone forcing me to go on when I do not wish too... and that's his right. Just as people can sign a DNR, he should be able to choose not to be on dialysis and let nature take him. *shrug* I just find it cruel when we try to keep people around that do NOT want to be around anymore.

[boxman55]

Well I will tell ya Angela, he just might get his wish one of these day, today to get the techs to take him off after only an hour and a half he started pulling on the tubes and his catheter, he does this to get them to move faster, one of these days it will come out. Don't want to see that...Boxman

[George Jung]

No Angela, you are not the only one.  If anyone tried forcing me to continue treatment I would pack a bag and be on my way.  I don't like how society just expects people to do dialysis like there is not a choice about it.  Before man made the the machine it was totally acceptable for nature to take it's course and now many look at it like it is suicide or something when someone choses not to.  I just don't get it sometimes.

It defiantly is a good thing that boxman has done (in my opinion), to show that someone cares and to give Stuart something to consider.  I think all we can do is to be kind and compassionate to inspire others to do the same.  Thanks boxman.

[karen547]

I know how Boxman feels- there is a man in my unit who acts somewhat similar- he quite often is saying he wants off his machine, how he wants a beer, etc. I sometimes feel like saying something but he is how he is I guess. This is also the same man who stares at me quite a lot so ya...... it's a bit awkward, and some days I actually hope he isn't on the same team as me so I am a bit conflicted...

[stauffenberg]

Although it seems that no one in hospital and clinic settings understands this, from the doctors to the nurses to the patients, it is illegal, a commission of the criminal act of battery, to administer any treatment to anyone who refuses it.  I have seen a patient on dialysis in such severe pain from needling that he said: "No, it isn't worth it, let me go!" and then the nurses held him down in his chair and forced him to be hooked up to the machine.  At that point I could have called the police and they would have had a duty to arrest those nurses for assault causing bodily harm, which in Canada is a crime punishable by up to ten years' imprisonment.

I have often found that patients admitted to the hospital think that they are not free to leave the hospital at any time, and instead have to receive permission from the staff before going out the door.  This is also a false assumption, for being hospitalized is not the same as being lawfully detained, and anyone who tells you or tries to keep you by force in a hospital when you want to leave it is committing the crime of false imprisonment.

[Sluff]

Somehow this thread got off of topic..or I missed something. I think the whole thing is Boxman was trying to help this individual because he felt that the guy may not be informed enough or ignorant of the fact to how dialysis is needed if you want to sustain life and is merely trying to put this mans mind at ease and make him feel like he has a friend. That's it. I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to force him to receive medical attention against his will.

I beleive it is choice also..just for the record.

[Adam_W]

Somehow this thread got off of topic..or I missed something. I think the whole thing is Boxman was trying to help this individual because he felt that the guy may not be informed enough or ignorant of the fact to how dialysis is needed if you want to sustain life and is merely trying to put this mans mind at ease and make him feel like he has a friend. That's it. I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to force him to receive medical attention against his will.

I beleive it is choice also..just for the record.

Actually, Stuart's brother is apparently forcing him to go to dialysis but he doesn't want to. I'm really glad that Boxman is trying to help, but I also agree that it should be Stuart's (and any one else's) choice whether or not to do dialysis.

Adam

[angela515]

Somehow this thread got off of topic..or I missed something.

That's it. I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to force him to receive medical attention against his will.

The topic was "Should I get involved", and when asked a question about 'Stuart', one of his responses was that Stuart's brother forces him to come to dialysis, and that's probably why Stuart does what he does to get off the machine, because he does not wish to be there to begin with and is going against his will... so that's kind of how my response came about relating to the topic.

[Sluff]

Ok got it. I missed that I guess.

[KT0930]

I agree that dialysis is a personal choice that each (potential) patient must make for him or herself, and it is wrong that Stuart's brother seems to be forcing him to go against his will - has the brother ever come to the unit and sat through a treatment with him to see what it's like?

That being said, I think Boxman is doing exactly the right thing. He's not forcing his opinion on Stuart, simply trying to let him know what will happen if he continues to refuse treatment. He's helping this man make an informed decision. If Stuart doesn't want to hear it, I'm very sorry. Boxman, thank you for what you're doing. I don't think I'd have the courage to do it.

[boxman55]

If someone can explain to me how the brain functions after a stroke we might get where Stuart is coming from. His speech is impaired so he is a little hard to understand and he has to walk with a walker. His brother is his guardian since the stroke. What I don't get is he shows up every time for treatment but just can't make it through it. I think he starts getting really anxious or nervous after a period of time for what ever reason. Sometimes it is 5 min or sometimes 1-1/2 hours. I was told for a time he was medicated but I was also told the Doctor pulled the medication, but don't know why. I never saw him when he was on medication because for a long time I was on a differant shift. Just to clarify once he is hooked up and then wants to leave, the nurses will honor his request but mostly have to work pretty fast because like I said he will try and stand up and also he will pull on his catheter...Boxman

[Romona]

I don't know much about people suffering from strokes. My brother's friend had several when she was young. She definitely sees the world differently. There are so many questions when it comes to someone's rights. Even though his brother is guardian it maybe of his financial affairs only. If his brother is not guardian of the "person", Stuart can still make his medical decisions on his own and his wishes should be honored. My husband's family went through some this legal stuff with his brother and I wished I remembered more. I imagine it would vary from state to state.

Boxman, I think you are so awesome reaching out to him and trying to understand!

[Sluff]

Every stroke victim reacts different depending on what portion of the brain is effected.

[okarol]

Stuart might have dementia or Alzheimer's. His short term memory could be impaired, so he thinks he is done when he really needs to stay. Just guessing. Any news on how he's doing?

[boxman55]

Stuart is coming to treatment and still wanting to leave early. Lately though I have found him sleeping when I get there which helps in keeping him a little longer. I have noticed lately also that he will grab a tech's hand (female) and won't let go. When the tech asked for him to let go he just starts laughing. This will last a minute or so then he lets go. He has a pretty nasty cough these days and still only stays on the machine for about an hour and a half at the most, sometimes less...Boxman

[goofynina]

That is scary, him grabbing a techs hand and laughing, it really sounds like he isnt all there, poor guy.  But it is good that he is getting a little more dialysis (while he is asleep)  Thanks for keeping us updated on Stuart, if he only knew that he had so many friends caring for him here at IHD. 

[thegrammalady]

since everything doesn't seem to be connected right, he, at least, has an excuse . we have a guy at my center who definitely knows what he's doing. he just wants it all his way or he's not going to participate. we have scheduled on times and his is 6am. yet he shows up at 5:15 when all the 5:30 on times do and expects to be put on then because he's there. if he doesn't get the tech he wants he walks out. it doesn't matter that the tech has 4 patients of her own she must take care of. he's there, he wants what he wants and everything is supposed to be rescheduled to meet his needs. the staff is refusing to cater to him, so more often than not he just walks out, after making his displeasure well known. he's younger than i am (maybe in his 30's) and should know better, stuart apparently doesn't

[boxman55]

what a pain in the ass that guy sounds like. Stuart doesn't bother other patients there is more of a concern for him from the patients along with the techs. Your guy at 5:30 in the morning needs a good chewing out...Boxman

[angela515]

To each his own. Maye the 530 guy don't want to look like he's giving up, so he's being an ass instead. Either, his choice. It would be nice if he wasn't an ass to everyone and just ot bother coming in, but eh... his time will soon end as he must want since he knows the consequences.

[kimcanada]

I had a guy in the bed beside me that sounds JUST like your neighbor,  he has been transfered to a site closer to his home now. 

Anyhow...  He was the meanest , rudest person I have ever seen, I ignored him from the first time he told off a nurse, then one day we started talking, and a few days later we were even having talks.

Believe it or not he did mellow, some people are their own worst enemy's.

Good Luck with your neighbor Boxman

[boxman55]

It's been a month since I spoke of Stuart, he is coming in regularly but still wanting to leave early which he is. Because he sits across the way from me I overheard his lab reports for the month when the social worker came by to discuss. The main concern she said was getting more time on the machine but, she did tell him that most everything looks good. Stuart waves to me and says "hi Mark", when I get there and then usually goes to sleep shortly after that. All in all I think he is doing OK...Boxman

[stauffenberg]

For a while I was in the two-station quarantine room of my dialysis center because of an infection with one of the infamous hospital 'super bugs,' VRE.  My set time for starting dialysis was 6 PM, and I was dialyzed there with an older woman whose appointed time was 6:30 PM.  She kept coming earlier and earlier, as though we were in some sort of open competition to see who could get on first, and because she was eventually there either simultaneously with me or shortly before, the nurse would often be confused and put her on first, thus forcing me to wait around, while the woman on dialysis would cast a look of scornful triumph in my direction at having beaten me in what she took to be our 'race.'  Eventually the staff spotted her trick and sternly reminded her to wait her turn, which she treated as some kind of insult.  What was curious about the whole incident was that she had deliberately chosen 6:30 as her dialysis time even before I was in that room with her, yet once I was there too, she had to have my time because it was earlier.

At another dialysis unit there was a young male who was temporarily on dialysis because he was having problems with his PD treatment.  He seemed to think the nurses were like waitresses and would snap his fingers at them to get their attention, often calling out to them in a commanding tone when his treatment was finished, saying "Heh, come on, I'm done!!"  No one told him he directly that he was behaving rudely, but the nurses started systematically ignoring his calls and finger snapping, always finding something else to do first, so that put him in his place.  I always wondered why he did not notice how different his behavior was from that of all the other patients at the center.