A theory of recovery from Dialysis.

[kristina]

Yajokha recently described her recovery from Dialysis and
I have thought about this remarkable event.

My own history of recovering from complete kidney failure in 1971 (uraemia & coma) and my current survival in ESRF,
though I have never had any Dialysis, may have a similar reasoning to yajokha’s recovery.

The only theory I can come up with which might fit yajokha’s case and mine is this,

for example, a patient who has just been put on Dialysis and still has some kidney function:

the water being expelled by the body can take two roots:

One route is through the Dialysis and the other route naturally through the kidneys.

If at this point the kidneys are discarded and left alone so the Dialysis takes over,
the kidneys, having no function, are considered by the body to be useless and they are left to  “wither away”,
and gradually they reach a point where it is impossible to regain any kidney-function.

The Dialysis then takes over completely.

But, at this crucial point when Dialysis is introduced and some kidney-function still exists,
if the kidneys then receive stimulation on a very regular repetitive basis
the kidneys might keep alive processing “water”.

The kidneys, the body, will not “think” the kidneys have become superfluous
even though Dialysis has been introduced; so at this point both processes work together.

This situation allows the body, the kidneys, to “decide” if the kidneys have the strengths to recover or not.

If the strengths is there and the kidneys begin to work better and kidney-function improves,
then at the right point Dialysis might be stopped.

As for myself (I am not on Dialysis and never have been on Dialysis
& my kidney function has been “stable” at around 10 - 12.3 % for a very long time)
I might be keeping my kidneys alive through the stimulation provided by diuretic stimulants (Asparagus) in my diet.

My kidneys “have not yet decided” which way they are going to go,
unless “they have decided” to remain at a level of around 10 - 12.3 %.
This theory includes my taking in a generous amount of liquids each day,
because the diuretic-process of stimulation must be accompanied by enough water-intake
to satisfy the “output” created by the diuretic.
 
This is the only way that I can possibly explain what appears like an unusual phenomenon of kidney-recovery
whether on Dialysis or not. What do you think ?

It would be also interesting to know what nephrologists think of this ?

Thanks from Kristina.

[KarenInWA]

I know that that wouldn't have worked for me. When my kidneys officially kicked the bucket, I was still peeing at a pretty good rate, but it wasn't "productive pee". My GFR was slipping like there was no tomorrow.  So, even though I was peeing, I was pretty much peeing water, while toxins were building up in my system. I went from 13% function in March to 6% in April. I ended up feeling better once I started D, and once my anemia was under control, I felt incredible! I was lucky in that D didn't make me feel sick and crappy, it actually made me feel better. I am now transplanted, and my anemia is back, so waiting for that to be resolved so I can feel incredible again!

KarenInWA

[willowtreewren]

The same was true for Carl. His urine output never decreased. But before dialysis he was feeling lousy. It had been a gradual decline, so he didn't realize how bad he was feeling until he started dialysis and felt years younger!

He did not become anemic again after transplant, though. 

[kristina]

Sorry, KarenInWA and Willowtreewren,
I thought I made quite clear the point I was making.

The meaning of my post is to find out if people when they are being put on Dialysis
are also given diuretics regularly to keep their kidneys working?
And, to see if this had some beneficial effect ?

Thanks from Kristina.

[cariad]

The same was true for Carl. His urine output never decreased.

Same here. Diuretics would not have helped me in the least, I was constantly having to urinate.

I don't think there is any formula to follow to be able to get off dialysis, some people are just lucky that way. As Rerun pointed out in another thread, most people follow the diet and do whatever their doctor says and they do not come off dialysis. I remember the member who went by Maker coming off dialysis (and there was loads of suspicion that she just had an incredibly sleazy nephrologist who knew perfectly well that she didn't need dialysis anymore). I think it was Adam W who also came off dialysis for about 6 months. I also remember reading about one of the first transplant patients, and her transplant failed pretty quickly but then her kidneys decided to rebound and she lived another 8 years or so. Something like that.

I was around 12-15% function for years. It is really not that unusual.

[MooseMom]

Kristina, I just did a Bing search of "residual renal function diuretic" and came up with loads of results.  I haven't had the time to either read through them myself or post the links, but do the search and see what information you get.  I'll read it all myself when I get more time.  Let us know what you find out and what your thoughts are.

[Cordelia]

Well, I'd like to *think* my renal function will return, but I don't think it will, even though I pee. And, I pee lots. I function at 12 per cent kidney function.

I could never figure out nor understand in the beginning of my dialysis days that even though I still pee, I need dialysis. I never understood it until someone told me, they aren't flushing 'out' properly even though I still produce urine.

[amanda100wilson]

Different diuretics work on different parts of the nephrons.  Giving diuretics will not reverse scarring of the nephrons.  Scarring is permanent.  Inflammatory processes which have not resulted in scarring are reversible which is why those with acute renal failure can regain function. 

[jeannea]

I don't think anyone "recovers" or "doesn't recover". It's all a function of the disease you have. There are so many reasons people are on dialysis. When I was diagnosed my function was bad but not bad enough yet for dialysis. (medullary cystic kidney disease) It was a high throughput disease. I was thirsty and drank 9 quarts of water a day and of course I peed a lot. I took diuretics and other medicines and followed a low protein diet. I managed to not need my transplant for 6 years. But that was just the progression of my disease in my body.

I'm glad you're still doing ok Kristina but there is very little most of us can do to fix things. I belive my doctors did all they could to help me stay healthy. But genetics is a funny thing.

I guess this subject kind of pushes my buttons. I don't want to have anyone here blaming themselves for being stuck on dialysis. I don't want you to blame yourself if some day unfortunately your diet doesn't work any more.

[jadey]

very interesting theory. I think it could be a possibility but only on a case  by case basis.

I started PD over a month ago and don't have any fluid restrictions because I am peeing lots. So now I try to drink about 8 cups a day just to keep my urine going. I'm interested to see how this method will work for you.

Caffeine is also a diuretic if you want more ideas.

Has anyone read about the guy who "cured himself" from kidney failure by bathing in 1 tsp of vinegar every day for 9 months??

[Riki]

Has anyone read about the guy who "cured himself" from kidney failure by bathing in 1 tsp of vinegar every day for 9 months??

I don't know about cure.. but add enough vinegar and he could be pickled.. *LOL*

[kristina]

Thank you all for your kind replies.

It certainly is not as straight forward as one would hope.

Once again it has given me more to think about and I really appreciate your thoughts,
which I can see come from long experience and lots of thinking.

It would appear, as has been said before,
that there are many different diseases of the kidneys
which may react in different ways
according to the individual and their genetics.
And therefore each of us must see what may help us
from our shared experiences and ideas.

It sure is complicated.

Thanks very much again for your thoughts.

Kind regards from Kristina.

[RichardMEL]

A tiny tiny nitpick (sorry, but it's been driving me a bit nuts)... but you don't recover from "dialysis" - dialysis is not the disease - it's a treatment option As others have said we're more talking about a recovery of renal function or perhaps an improvement of renal function.

phew I'm so glad I got that off my chest !! 

I'll go back to my pedantic corner now. It's safe here and very square

[Riki]

Yeah, Richard, I was thinking the same thing.. *L*  Same as those who say they can cure kidney failure.  I'd say once you were into failure, it's pretty hard to cure.  I had this one guy on twitter once, who tried to tell me that he could reverse my kidney failure with diet.  I thought that was hilarious, as I'm sure that my kidneys are nothing more than huge blobs of scar tissue by now, all 4 of them probably are.

[RichardMEL]

Of course the long time IHDers could never forget the "Sauna Cure" guy  

[Riki]

Of course the long time IHDers could never forget the "Sauna Cure" guy  

Oh wow. I don't think I even want to know.. *LOL*

Well, it would get all the fluid out, if you didn't pass out in the process.....

[Jean]

I remember the " sauna cure guy". He was really intense. What a crock.

[kristina]

Thanks Richard, perhaps my wording was not perfect.
Of course, I wondered if there is a possibility for a recovery of the renal function...

By the way: when my kidneys first failed in 1971 I was being put on a diuretic,
but the water retention was still very bad and I assisted myself by taking my own “Kneipp-bed-saunas”.
(I was laying in bed, having 5 hot water-bottles placed in strategic places underneath a damp sheet
into which I was wrapped: i.e. one water-bottle under each knee, one on the stomach, and one each side of the body.
The water-bottles must not be too hot because of the skin...).

I then was completely wrapped-up to the neck and started to sweat after a while and then I took a shower.

This process was very messy and tiring, but it was a recommended “bed-sauna”, did not cost me any money
and was extremely kind to my body. (I was much too weak for a real sauna and it was not recommended).

I feel this helped my process of recovery at the time.
I have tried it again after my diagnosis of ESRF in August 2006,
but this time, my body did not like it and it did not work at all.

I have also written to many kidney-associations
in countries like Finland, Sweden, Norway, Germany and Russia
to find out whether or not sauna assists patients in kidney-failure,
but to my astonishment I was informed that there has never been any research done
whether or not it has any positive effect.

Thanks from Kristina.

[Riverwhispering]

Jadey did you read about that in the Onion?  LOL   I don't think one tsp of vinegar would get anyone clean much less cure them of kidney disease. 

[willowtreewren]

Jadey did you read about that in the Onion?  LOL   I don't think one tsp of vinegar would get anyone clean much less cure them of kidney disease. 

Oh, that is a hoot!

[jadey]

Jadey did you read about that in the Onion?  LOL   I don't think one tsp of vinegar would get anyone clean much less cure them of kidney disease. 

Oh, that is a hoot!

lol if you guys don't believe me... here it is!

http://www.kidneyrecovery.net/myopinion.html

It is basically some guy's personal website

[Riki]

It looks more like someone trying to sell a book, trying to make a buck by raising the hopes of the uninformed

A few months ago, I peed for the first time in almost 4 years, and it wasn't just a little drop or two, I actually wet myself.  I made a joke about it being the beginning of my miraculous recovery, but I knew that wasn't what was going on.  It genuinely scared me.  No one has ever been able to tell me what happened, and it hasn't happened again.

I know that my kidneys are genuinely dead.  There's no regeneration going to happen to them.  Those of us who make a point of informing ourselves (and a good many of us are here. It makes me happy to be among so many informed people. *G*) know that once they're gone, they're gone.  This guy is akin to a snake oil salesman.  I've seen sites like that one before.

[fearless]

I remember visiting that site.  The gentleman had kidney failure from IgA nephropathy.  It's an autoimmune disease that sometimes goes into remission.  And as others here have mentioned, there are people who may end up on dialysis for several months and still recover (it is VERY rare)  I believe the man is sincere in his desire to help because he truly believes it might be possible to find a way to heal kidney failure.  But without knowing why and how he ended up coming off of dialysis, it's not possible to say what might have helped.

When the kidneys fail, they often put out more urine because: one of the kidney's jobs is to conserve water when you don't have enough, and get rid of it when you have too much.  It conserves water by "concentrating" the urine.  When it can't properly conserve the water ("pull" it back into the body from the kidney so to speak) it will just let the fluid dump into the bladder and out.
You find you need to pee more often (and that sensation is increased by the protein in the urine, which your kidneys are also failing to keep in your bloodstream.  Over time, the fluid output will decrease as that final function also fails (but at least then you are not losing protein anymore!)

With all the different causes of kidney failure, and all the different functions of the kidney - the progress of failure is very different from one person to another.   And there are some causes that may progress to a certain point and then stop.

I am a realist.  But I also believe in miracles.  And sometimes i think that if you believe that something will work, it will work.  But you've got to believe it so completely that no doubt enters your mind, and continue to believe it no matter what might dissuade you.  Doesn't anyone but Jesus walk in such faith?

[kristina]

Thank you, fearless for your thoughts, they are very much appreciated.

It is interesting that this gentleman had kidney failure because of an immune disease IgA-nephropathy.

I also suffer from Lupus/MCTD and chronic proliferative Glomerulonephritis and I believe
that my current kidney failure was induced like my first kidney failure by a Lupus-MCTD-flare-up,
and I am hoping, that if and when the flare-up goes into remission,
my kidneys might have a second chance to pick-up again.

It is true that with all the different causes of kidney-failure
and all the different functions of the kidneys
the progress of failure can be different from one person to another.

What may make a difference though is a positive realistic optimistic attitude
because this provides the stimulus to carry through 
what is necessary to give one the very best chance of surviving
and possibly getting better.

Thanks again from Kristina.

[fearless]

you're welcome Kristina!

It's true that a positive and optimistic attitude would always help a person to survive and get better.  And fortunately for those of us who have total kidney failure, we have dialysis to allow us to survive.  And dialysis requires a positive optimistic attitude too!  (if you're going to carry on with a joyful life)

cheers and good fortune to you!