Uremic frost, a gift from God!!!!!!

[billybill1]

Hi Everyone:
      As I said in my intro post I'm on a journey to use sauna & sweating to keep off dialysis permanently. Through my research I  find out
that I would be able to get enough fluids out through the sauna. But I wasn't sure about getting out all the waste products in the blood.
I did have a hunch that as a persons kidneys decline more waste would start coming out through the sweat glands. In other words the dirtier the blood the
dirtier the sweat. I ran into an article on a condition called Uremic frost which is common in people with bum kidneys. Their sweat becomes so filled with waste that when it evaporates it leaves a crystalline frost on the skin made of waste from the blood. BINGO!!!!!!!!!!  The sweat glands do take over for the impaired kidneys in removing wastes from the body. How could they not! There's no mechanism to stop it from coming out. Therefore the right amount of saunaing cold do the same thing as dialysis.
    I figure an hour or so a day will give you a full days worth of kidney function. Because it takes an hour to sweat out 2 liters of sweat which is the average amount a person urinates in a day. I going to assume enough blood waste will also come also.
So far it's working for me. I have no tell tall signs of kidney disease.  Also the signs I did have have vanished.

[YLGuy]

Please keep us informed.  Are you getting regular blood tests?  I am VERY interested to hear what your levels are after a month of your SD (sauna dialysis).

[glitter]

 I would be very skeptical of sweating replacing dialysis...if it could a lot more people would be doing it. I just do not beleive you can sweat out enough toxins in an hour or even two- a day. I think it sounds very dangerous. 

When my husband had 0% function he used sauna suits to be able to drink more, but he had to be very careful about sweating too much without replacing the electolytes in his body. Neph said it could cause fatal heart problems. Your body has a very delicate balance of electricity.

[billybill1]

I've stopped getting regular blood tests. But I did get a test one month after I started saunaing and my creatinine  no. dropped from 3.2 to 2.5.
It takes about six months to get up to speed on the sauna. I do it everyday for 6 or 7 rounds which takes an hour. each round lasts about 10 minutes.
7 to 8 minutes in the sauna and 2 to 3 minutes of cold shower in between. I throw 2 to 3 ladels of water on the rocks at the start of each session. It gets the sweating started very fast. I don't mess around in the sauna. It's a bit of an ordeal, but well worth it.You have to start off slow. It's like execise  your body has to adapt.
You can't just do a 5 minute sauna 2 times a week at the gym. It's a real physical therapy. But when you come out the sauna your floating on cloud nine.
I get completely relaxed.  Also you feel like your taking matters into you own hands. Not just waiting for a doctor to do something for you.
    The American Indians used the sweat lodge (sauna) for spiritual purposes as well for health. The sauna is a great place to relax. It's  a very sacred womb like place.
No matter how rotten or upset I feel when I enter the sauna I always feel great when I come out.
If you can getting sweating asap!

[billybill1]

Hey Glitter:
    With all due respect your replay is coming out of fear and very  little knowledge or facts.
You didn't dispute a single fact in my post. You just gave a general broadside based on fear.
Saunas are everywhere. Millions of people use them everyday. Are people dying from them?
If your already on dialysis I do not reccomend you stop dialysis when you start saunaing. I'm simple sharing my personal
journey with others.
    And just because a lot of people aren't already doing doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Dialysis is one of the most profitable areas of big medicine. Do you think they have an interest in something
that costs 1/100th the cost.

[Des]

Billy:

Please stop PUSHING saunas as a means of treating kidney disease!!!!!!!

You do this on all the forums.

If it works tell a doctor or a nephrologist and let the medical world know. You stopped taking blood tests, so where is your proof that it actually works? You are quick to tell Glitter that she has not disputed a single fact in your post but PLEASE go for bloodtests and proof your theory. You are basing your WHOLE idea on a single bloodtest from a single person and on an article you read? If I believed every article I read about "fixing" my kidneys I would be taking the weirdest medication and I would be taking all kinds of herbs and stuff.

Are you on dialysis?
What caused your kidney disease?
Are you in the medical profession?
What medical qualifications do you have?
How many tests did you do and on how many people did you "test" your theory on?

You are endangering people's lives. Kidney failure is a life threatening disease and it is NO JOKE.
We want a easy fix but don't you think if something as easy as a sauna can replace dialysis someone besides you Bill would have found it out by now.

Thanks for sharing your personal journey with us bit I still think you must do bloodtests and consult a doctor.

[Des]

Billy, Here is some of your "pushing" posts in April 2008 on the Davita site.


 April 2008

Saunas and heavy sweating do the same thing as dialysis. Everything that comes
out in urine also comes out in sweat. The skin is called the third kidney because it does
the same thing as the kidney.
I take an hour sauna everyday. That sweats out 2 liters of fluid.
Dr. Weil recommends saunas for people with kidney failure.
I would be careful about asking your doctor or nurse unless they also
know about alternative medicine. Most of them only know how to
get out the prescription pad.

April 2008

Hot tubs and baths are not good because they could interfere with your catheter. Saunas won't because they're dry or have some steam which germs cant live in.
Saunas are fine if your on dialysis. In fact sweating in the sauna is dialysis. I do it instead of dialysis. You have to be able to stay in a long time. For at least an hour. Of course not straight. I break it up to 5 or 6 rounds. The first round is 20 minutes. The rest are ten minutes.
It takes about 3 to 4 months to build up to that lenght. And you have to do it 7 days a week.
Also I take cold showers in between rounds which also stimulates circulation.
But saunas have all positive effects whereas dialysis can have deadly side effects.
Read the wiki site for saunas.
One again be careful to ask most Doctors who know nothing about anything natural.

April 2008
That sounds good but most Doctors don't know anything about saunas and using your skin as the third kidney. And saunas do "significantly alter the fluids of the body" which is exactly what dialysis does which is why it can be used as an alternative treatment for some people.
If you're already on dialysis I wouldn't go off it and use saunas only. It's important to find a Doctor that practices integrative medicine.
Also saunaing is much easier on your body.
I'm still at 40% kidney function which is pre dialysis. So saunas are perfect for me because they greatly increase my kidney function.
   

April 2008
Your husband may want to consider using the sauna. An hour in the sauna sweats out
about 2 liters of excess fluids which is about as much as most people pee in a day.
A good rule of thumbs about saunas is if you're able to do light exercise you can sauna.
They're very safe. Most YMCAs have saunas.
I used to have edema in my feet from congestive heart failure. Since I've been saunaing
for an hour everyday the edema has completely disappear.
Start at 10 minutes and take cold showers between rounds. usually you can get 4 to 5 rounds in an hour. Of course don't try to take a sauna for an hour solid.
Please feel free to email me at billybill1@hotmail.com with any questions.

Billy,
In the above thread you state that your sauna even helped with congestive heart failure.
 

[billybill1]

This is an open forum. How dare you tell me what I can post! I am breaking no rules of this site
by sharing my experiences. You may take my posts for what they're worth.  And I will continue to share what I've learned.
My experience with standard medicine was a complete horror. No doctor suggest a single treatment
for my poly cystic kidney disease, it was just countdown to dialysis. If you want to go that route
than I respect that. But don't try to suppress other people into exploring this safe ancient natural option.
I found my case the natural alternative approach far superior to standard western medicine.
   I thought this sight was called "I Hate Dialysis". I've just found a much more
benign alternative to ridding my system of excess fluids and wastes in my blood.
 I Hate Dialysis also and which to postpone it at the very least.
I you have a dispute with anything I've said please give me the specific facts as to why
I'm wrong. I'm more than willing to learn more. That's part of my journey.
Sauna are very safe. Of course get blood tests if that works for you.
But please don't discourage anyone from investigating or taking saunas.
And of course just don't stop dialysis if you already doing that.
   My last observation is that the more I investigate the sauna for kidneys failure
the more the hard facts lead me to the conclusion that saunaing does the same thing as dialysis.

[billybill1]

These are my posts on the Davita sight. What about it. I was sharing the info I researched in response to a question
someone asked.  Let me throw the ball back in your court. Was anything I said in my posts incorrect.
I don't think  making me the issue is the correct way to proceed. If your going to take issue with what I've said
please come back at me with the facts and tell me where I'm wrong.

[Des]

?

[Des]

Billy:

Are you on dialysis?
What caused your kidney disease?
Are you in the medical profession?
What medical qualifications do you have?
How many tests did you do and on how many people did you "test" your theory on?

I did ask a lot of questions.

[Des]

This is an open forum. THAT GAVE ME THE RIGHT TO REPLY. How dare you tell me what I can post! I NEVER SAID YOU CANNOT POST IT.  I am breaking no rules of this site
by sharing my experiences. I SAID THANKYOU FOR SHARING YOUR EXPERIENCE You may take my posts for what they're worth.  And I will continue to share what I've learned. GOOD.
My experience with standard medicine was a complete horror. No doctor suggest a single treatment
for my poly cystic kidney disease, it was just countdown to dialysis. I HAVE PKD AS WELL. If you want to go that route
than I respect that. But don't try to suppress other people into exploring this safe ancient natural option.I DID NOT SUPRESS ANYBODY I ASKED FOR PROOF THAT YOUR METHOD IS WORKING.
I found my case the natural alternative approach far superior to standard western medicine.
   I thought this sight was called "I Hate Dialysis". I've just found a much more
benign alternative to ridding my system of excess fluids and wastes in my blood. GOOD FOR YOU, PLEASE PROOF IT SO THAT OTHERS CAN FOLLOW YOU.
 I Hate Dialysis also and which to postpone it at the very least. SO DO I.
I you have a dispute with anything I've said please give me the specific facts as to why
I'm wrong.  I DID NO SAY YOU ARE WRONG I ASKED FOR MEDICAL PROOF FOR YOUR STATEMENT. I'm more than willing to learn more. That's part of my journey.
Sauna are very safe. Of course get blood tests if that works for you.
But please don't discourage anyone from investigating or taking saunas. I WILL WARN ANYONE ABOUT EXPLORING TREATMENT THAT HAS NO VERIFIED RESULTS. AS YOU SAID IN THE BEGINNING "IT IS AN OPEN FORUM" And of course just don't stop dialysis if you already doing that.
   My last observation is that the more I investigate the sauna for kidneys failure
the more the hard facts lead me to the conclusion that saunaing does the same thing as dialysis.

I am not shouting I just bold my replies to show it better.

[Des]

Just for kicks I found the article about dr Weil recomending sauna.
He clearly states that a person with high blood pressure should not do this without consulting a doc. He says that it will take the workload off the kidney and liver. Not that 1 hour will replace dialysis or get rid of 2liters of fluid. 

Q    Skittish about Saunas?
A friend is urging me to go to the sauna. I'm wary of being exposed to so much heat. What's your recommendation?
A    Answer (Published 3/10/2006)
I'm a sauna enthusiast, and I often recommend "sweat bathing" in saunas (or steam rooms) to cleanse the skin, soothe sore muscles, or simply relax. Sweating in a sauna can also be beneficial to patients with arthritis, asthma or respiratory infections, and is a good way to recover from overindulgence in food or drink. The sweating rids the body of excess sodium and other unwanted substances. It also helps eliminate drugs and some toxins and by doing so can take some of the workload off the liver and kidneys. I recommend regular visits to saunas or steam rooms to patients with liver or kidney disease.
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Sweating in a sauna or steam room dilates the blood vessels, which reduces blood pressure and increases circulation to the skin. You don't need much time in the heat - 10 to 20 minutes is enough to work up a good sweat. After exercise, a sauna can help your body relax. You'll loose some "water weight," too, but this effect lasts only until you replenish the fluids you've lost sweating.
If you have high blood pressure or a heart problem, be sure to check with your physician before going to a sauna or steam room. The heat can cause circulatory changes, including an increased heart rate. Overall, however, the only real risk to a sauna or steam room is spending too much time sweating. You can faint from overheating and from dehydration. Be sure to drink lots of water before, during and after your sweat. And, while pregnant women should avoid soaking in hot tubs, there's no reason why they can't take saunas (as long as they're healthy).
If you're interested in buying a home sauna, I would recommend one that allows you to create steam by pouring water on heated rocks. Many electric saunas only produce dry air, which can irritate the upper respiratory tract.
In addition to the sauna's effects on the body, many people find that it increases energy levels, reduces stress, and promotes restful sleep. The Finns, who take their saunas seriously, follow the heat with a plunge into cold water. They've got the right idea - the cold water is remarkably refreshing. Despite your misgivings, I think if you go to a sauna with an open mind and a positive attitude, you'll find it both relaxing and invigorating. Enjoy!
Andrew Weil, M.D.

[KICKSTART]

I think if you are genuine , you are just either very lucky ..so far ..or just clutching at straws to convince yourself that this is working and you wont need dialysis in the end. Of course you are going to feel better after a sauna ..dont most people?

[twirl]

is this the miracle I have been waiting for
where are saunas
and how long do I stay in them
and should I weigh before I go and after I get out
can I drink in the sauna and will I have to be naked and are there other people in the sauna
and will I pass out from heat
I guess I could just go sit outside
our heat index is over 118 degrees today
maybe Texas is a God given sauna

[Des]

Twirl,

I am sorry to say that sauna can never replace dialysis. There are NO tested results to proof that it actually works. (I am still trying to google it, maybe okaral can get us some info)

In fact I found a lot of warnings for people with high bloodpressure or any heart problems.
Bill suggests that you do this for a hour at a time. This according to some sites can be life threatening.

Please do not stop dialysis. But ask your doc about the sauna thing.

 

[kristina]

As I understand it, in a sauna the body temperature is raised in order to make the body sweat which is the body’s way of cooling down. Does the heart rate increase as well, even though one is inactive? Obviously it makes the sweat glands work hard, but does it make any other part of the body (organs etc) work hard as well?
Because my health is fragile (Cerebral haemorrhages, CVA-stroke, blood-pressure controlled by anti-hypertensive tablets etc, ESRF), should I be careful about heating my body up to the level experienced in a sauna?
Because of possible complications in a conventional sauna,  I have read in an old medical type book from 1900 that in the case of fragile people they can make their own home-sauna by wrapping themselves in a damp sheet of cotton, put over this a large sheet of cotton-towel and put underneath the kidney region on each side one hot-water bottle (not too hot for obvious reasons), under each calf one hot water-bottle, and another hot water-bottle on the  stomach-region. Altogether 5 hot water-bottles. Then a duvet etc has to be put over the body to sweat as much as is comfortable. Afterwards, when they feel it was enough, they take a shower. This method was developed by Bilz and he describes this method very clearly in his book. Bilz is based on Kneipp and he developed this gentle home-sauna, or bed-sauna, for people like myself who are fragile because of their complicated health history.
Please feel free to give your opinions, much appreciated.

[glitter]

Hey Glitter:
    With all due respect your replay is coming out of fear and very  little knowledge or facts.
You didn't dispute a single fact in my post. You just gave a general broadside based on fear.
Saunas are everywhere. Millions of people use them everyday. Are people dying from them?
If your already on dialysis I do not reccomend you stop dialysis when you start saunaing. I'm simple sharing my personal
journey with others.
    And just because a lot of people aren't already doing doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Dialysis is one of the most profitable areas of big medicine. Do you think they have an interest in something
that costs 1/100th the cost.

With all due respect, you are saying that sauna replaces dialysis- which is dangerous bullshit.

I you have a dispute with anything I've said please give me the specific facts as to why
I'm wrong.

 
How about some facts to back up your claims?

April 2008

Saunas and heavy sweating do the same thing as dialysis. Everything that comes
out in urine also comes out in sweat. The skin is called the third kidney because it does
the same thing as the kidney.

Sweating CANNOT replace your kidneys..I see your at 40% function, so sweating probably does get rid of excess fluid for you- but you state that it replaces dialysis- which I think is a bullcrap, dangerous statement.

[KICKSTART]

Des .. i think Twirl was being just a bit sarcastic in her post ..lol.
I dont know who this guy is, but if all it took was a sauna to keep kidney failure away  then millions of people would be doing it.
Whats it going to be next? A bubblebath for cancer?

[Rivy]

 ???It that incredible or what?  It's really hard to belive that you can sweat it off in replace of dialysis treatment.  I'm going to the closes gym with a sauna..How much do you weight Billy?  I'm only weighting about 155 maybe extra with the fluid I carry.  Otherwords, sweating my fluids for an hour will only make me lose the body fat that I have on and I assure you that I can not lose anymore than I have to put on.   Does it count if you have a lot of body fat ?  How about a skinny guy like me?  Any alturnatilve will make going to dialysis be elimanated...Best of luck to you, but I'm still thinking I should do the dialysis treatment three times a day. 
sincerely,
Rivy

Hi Everyone:
      As I said in my intro post I'm on a journey to use sauna & sweating to keep off dialysis permanently. Through my research I  find out
that I would be able to get enough fluids out through the sauna. But I wasn't sure about getting out all the waste products in the blood.
I did have a hunch that as a persons kidneys decline more waste would start coming out through the sweat glands. In other words the dirtier the blood the
dirtier the sweat. I ran into an article on a condition called Uremic frost which is common in people with bum kidneys. Their sweat becomes so filled with waste that when it evaporates it leaves a crystalline frost on the skin made of waste from the blood. BINGO!!!!!!!!!!  The sweat glands do take over for the impaired kidneys in removing wastes from the body. How could they not! There's no mechanism to stop it from coming out. Therefore the right amount of saunaing cold do the same thing as dialysis.
    I figure an hour or so a day will give you a full days worth of kidney function. Because it takes an hour to sweat out 2 liters of sweat which is the average amount a person urinates in a day. I going to assume enough blood waste will also come also.
So far it's working for me. I have no tell tall signs of kidney disease.  Also the signs I did have have vanished.

[billybill1]

I never expected so much hostility for sharing my wonderful discoveries. But facts are facts. As you kidneys decline more waste starts coming out in your sweat.
Sweating  in the sauna removes large quantities excess fluids and wastes from the body. That means sweating in the sauna does the same thing as dialysis. Does this mean that it's right for everyone, no. Each person has to makes his or her own journey. But as kidney failure suffers we we caught a break from nature, the skin is the third kidney and I'm using my third kidney.
 I guess the pioneers always get the arrow! 

[monrein]

Billybill, you are one hundred percent correct in stating that facts are facts.  And one certain fact is that saunas cannot ever be a substitute for dialysis.  That's a fact.  If you were to make the decision to pursue only sauna treatments rather than dialysis you would simply die once your kidney function went low enough.

We ought never to let desperation or hope completely eclipse our ability to think rationally or research various claims.  This is a ludicrous claim in my opinion and ought to be dismissed as such. 

[YLGuy]

I don't know if it is hostility or just a real concern for other peoples health.  People can become desperate for a better quality of life.  I think that the people who are posting "against" you have a genuine concern for the other people reading these posts.  It is a fact that some alternative modes of treatment for various diseases and ailments over the years can have 3 outcomes.  Some actually do help, some do absolutely nothing at all and others can be harmful even to the point of being fatal.  The others posting are concerned that your sauna treatments could end up hurting others who take your mode of treatment as medical fact.  So far the only article I found that discusses sweating and your skin as being a 3rd kidney is an author who is a photographer, Mikkel Aaland who does not have any medical background.  If you truly believe that this is "for real".  You should be more scientific about it.  What is your current kidney function?  You absolutely need to have labs done prior to and after your treatments to show that it is eliminating all the poisons that HD or PD eliminates.  It may eliminate sodium but what does it do for your potassium levels? Please, please, please back up your claims with medical proof.  I am not asking this to prove this to others.  I am asking this as a genuine concern for your health period.   

[billybill1]

"And one certain fact is that saunas cannot ever be a substitute for dialysis". How do you know "that saunas cannot ever be a substitute for dialysis."?
Give me real facts please. Not just a lecture about desperation.
The facts show me very clearly that saunaing dialysis done correctly does the very same thing as regular dialysis. Plus you can start sauna dialysis when you're in a pre dialysis stage. Are you saying I should not sauna for any hour every day and sweat out all my excess fluid and a lot of the waste in my blood? Are you saying it does not get rid of excess fluid? Are you saying it's not purifying my blood?
 

[okarol]

Uremic frost

First described by Hirschsprung in 1865, uremic frost is rarely seen today because of early dialytic intervention. When the blood urea nitrogen level is adequately high (usually >250-300 mg/dL), the concentration of urea in sweat is increased greatly. Evaporation results in the deposition of urea crystals on the skin. Uremic frost is commonly found in the beard or on other parts of the face, neck, and trunk as fine white-to-yellow crystals that dissolve readily when challenged by a drop of water.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1094846-overview