I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
November 25, 2024, 01:57:02 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
532606 Posts in 33561 Topics by 12678 Members
Latest Member: astrobridge
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  I Hate Dialysis Message Board
|-+  Dialysis Discussion
| |-+  Dialysis: News Articles
| | |-+  Renal Transplantation: Is it the Primary or Secondary Treatment for CKD-5?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Renal Transplantation: Is it the Primary or Secondary Treatment for CKD-5?  (Read 3628 times)
okarol
Administrator
Member for Life
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 100933


Photo is Jenna - after Disneyland - 1988

WWW
« on: March 11, 2009, 10:25:18 PM »

March 10, 2009
Renal Transplantation: Is it the Primary or Secondary Treatment for CKD-5?

By Peter Laird, MD

Until the time that we are able to regrow our kidneys in a petri dish, the debate will continue over allocation of a limited supply of donated living and deceased kidneys. Some castigate unfairly, in my opinion, those that have altruistically given their very flesh to family and stranger alike in an effort to stem the dance of death renal patients abide in. The gift of life of a living renal donation makes headline news on a regular basis. Complete strangers have stepped forward to give this gift of life to those in need. Yes, despite the many detractors of altruistic living donation, it does exist. The fact that we have even one stranger willing to give selflessly to another should always be applauded, especially by those that have so received.

Many continue to strive for a commercial system of financial reward in exchange for these extreme acts of altruism. Yet, in my mind, the debate on renal donations and various methods of increasing altruistic donations, financial compensation for vendor donations and deceased organ donations procured by opt out systems of presumed consent miss the central issue at hand, is kidney transplantation the primary treatment for CKD-5 or is it the secondary treatment option?

In the case of a patient that has a living related donor that gives this gift before the start of dialysis, many would argue reasonably that preemptive renal transplantation is the primary treatment option. Nevertheless, not all renal patients are transplant eligible. Issues of cardiovascular risk, cancer risk, obesity and co-morbid disease states eliminate thousands from the transplant list every year. Many choose not to place family or friends at jeopardy by asking for their healthy organs. I for one have a combination of relative medical risk and refusal to place my two willing donors at risk, my wife and my daughter who both came forward willing and eager to give me one of their healthy kidneys.

While I was exploring my own personal options, I had a great unease at accepting their gift if there was another viable option available to me. Certainly the diagnosis of malignant melanoma one month after I started dialysis settled the issue once and for all for me. The advent of cancer spreading out of control by aggressive immunosuppression augmented by my own willingness to bear my own disease without endangering my loved ones won out in my decision to pursue home, daily dialysis as my primary treatment option.

In the end, the issue of whether dialysis is the primary treatment option or renal transplant is turns out to be an individual decision based on many factors. Yet today, even though the overwhelming majority of patients will either choose to forgo transplant or not be eligible for transplant, the only consideration given publicity is that of renal transplant. We have about 1% of the hemodialysis census dialyzing in the comfort of their own home when other nations have up to one third taking advantage of this option.

For the majority of people with CKD-5 dialysis is their primary treatment option whether, home hemodialysis, home PD or incenter and they should be hopeful when reading the information that optimal dialysis has survival rates that rival living related transplant. These two CKD5 realities should place the primary treatment option of dialysis at the forefront of the discussion.

We continue to hear of those that die on the transplant waiting list. Yet, I have not seen one advocate of the various transplant procurement options come forth publicly in support of optimal dialysis even for those on the transplant list. Australia and other nations have a high transition rate from home hemodialysis to transplant with improved outcomes in their optimally dialysis patients awaiting their secondary treatment option of transplant.

Why are these very vocal advocates of renal transplantation so silent on the issue of optimal dialysis? I have my own private theories on why they remain silent publicly, but for those that understand that optimal dialysis is medically available but not socially promoted here in America, the tragedy that Belding Scribner sought to prevent overwhelms the benefit of all of our directed efforts for increasing renal transplantation when we consider those that could have survived if they had only had access to optimal dialysis.

Our short sighted efforts to focus all of our primary treatments in the renal transplantation option alone when the supply shall likely never meet the total demand from all who would wish a kidney, leads me to ask again, is renal transplantation a primary or secondary treatment option for the majority of American CKD-5 patients? If it is a secondary treatment option for the majority of our renal patients, then Dr. Scribner’s work was left unfinished. Perhaps answering this simple question first about dialysis and renal transplant will better focus our future efforts against this deadly condition.

http://www.billpeckham.com/from_the_sharp_end_of_the/2009/03/renal-transplantation-is-it-the-primary-or-secondary-treatment-for-ckd5.html
Logged


Admin for IHateDialysis 2008 - 2014, retired.
Jenna is our daughter, bad bladder damaged her kidneys.
Was on in-center hemodialysis 2003-2007.
7 yr transplant lost due to rejection.
She did PD Sept. 2013 - July 2017
Found a swap living donor using social media, friends, family.
New kidney in a paired donation swap July 26, 2017.
Her story ---> https://www.facebook.com/WantedKidneyDonor
Please watch her video: http://youtu.be/D9ZuVJ_s80Y
Living Donors Rock! http://www.livingdonorsonline.org -
News video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-7KvgQDWpU
Zach
Elite Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4820


"Still crazy after all these years."

« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2009, 12:14:18 AM »

 :beer1;
Logged

Uninterrupted in-center (self-care) hemodialysis since 1982 -- 34 YEARS on March 3, 2016 !!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No transplant.  Not yet, anyway.  Only decided to be listed on 11/9/06. Inactive at the moment.  ;)
I make films.

Just the facts: 70.0 kgs. (about 154 lbs.)
Treatment: Tue-Thur-Sat   5.5 hours, 2x/wk, 6 hours, 1x/wk
Dialysate flow (Qd)=600;  Blood pump speed(Qb)=315
Fresenius Optiflux-180 filter--without reuse
Fresenius 2008T dialysis machine
My KDOQI Nutrition (+/ -):  2,450 Calories, 84 grams Protein/day.

"Living a life, not an apology."
G-Ma
Elite Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2191


« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2009, 05:45:37 AM »

 :2thumbsup;
Logged

Lost vision due to retinopathy 12/2005, 30 Laser Surg 2006
ESRD diagnosed 12/2006
03/2007 Fantastic Eye Surgeon in ND got my sight back and implanted lenses in both eyes, great distance & low reading.
Gortex 4/07.  Started dialysis in ND 5/4/2007
Gortex clotted off Thanksgiving Week of 2007, was unclotted and promptly clotted off 1/2 hour later so Permacath Rt chest.
3/2008 move to NC to be close to children.
2 Step fistula, 05/08-elevated 06/08, using mid August.
Aug 5, 08, trained NxStage and Home on 9/3/2008.
Fistulagram 09/2008. In hospital 10/30/08, Bowel Obstruction.
Back to RAI-Latrobe In Center. No home hemo at this time.
GOD IS GOOD
jbeany
Member for Life
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 7536


Cattitude

« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2009, 05:59:35 AM »

 :cheer:
Logged

"Asbestos Gelos"  (As-bes-tos yay-lohs) Greek. Literally, "fireproof laughter".  A term used by Homer for invincible laughter in the face of death and mortality.

Joe Paul
Elite Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4841


« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2009, 06:06:11 AM »

Great reading  :thumbup;
Logged

"The history of discovery is completed by those who don't follow rules"
Angels are with us, but don't take GOD for granted
Transplant Jan. 8, 2010
pelagia
Elite Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2991


« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2009, 06:19:21 AM »

I agree that the options should not be prioritized and it's great that the doc points that out.  To me it is reprehensible that every dialysis patient does not have access to the optimal treatments.

But, it still doesn't change the fact that a successful transplant offers something very close to a normal life.  If there was a surplus of kidneys (cadaver or living donor) available how many of those on dialysis would opt to stay on dialysis rather than chose transplant?

So, one problem as I see it is that as soon as we let society off the hook about the concept of donating, we will not necessarily choose to do the right thing - e.g. sign that donor card, or step up to be tested.  It's psychology fighting inertia, especially since we are able to offer little in the way of support for living donors.  Another issue is that our society is heavily driven by our capitalistic under-pinnings. There is money to be made in dialysis clinics and they have a lobby.  
Logged

As for me, I'll borrow this thought: "Having never experienced kidney disease, I had no idea how crucial kidney function is to the rest of the body." - KD
Sunny
Elite Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1501


Sunny

« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2009, 11:53:13 AM »

Since there aren't enough cadaver kidneys to go around because of people's irrational fears regarding donation, then optimal dialysis is the way to go. I think it's all about the $. Healthcare only wants to pay the absolute minimum to keep people alive. They don't care about quality of life.
Logged

Sunny, 49 year old female
 pre-dialysis with GoodPastures
Chris
Member for Life
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9219


WWW
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2009, 12:32:39 PM »

Interesting reading and view points from pelagia.
Logged

Diabetes -  age 7

Neuropathy in legs age 10

Eye impairments and blindness in one eye began in 95, major one during visit to the Indy 500 race of that year
   -glaucoma and surgery for that
     -cataract surgery twice on same eye (2000 - 2002). another one growing in good eye
     - vitrectomy in good eye post tx November 2003, totally blind for 4 months due to complications with meds and infection

Diagnosed with ESRD June 29, 1999
1st Dialysis - July 4, 1999
Last Dialysis - December 2, 2000

Kidney and Pancreas Transplant - December 3, 2000

Cataract Surgery on good eye - June 24, 2009
Knee Surgery 2010
2011/2012 in process of getting a guide dog
Guide Dog Training begins July 2, 2012 in NY
Guide Dog by end of July 2012
Next eye surgery late 2012 or 2013 if I feel like it
Home with Guide dog - July 27, 2012
Knee Surgery #2 - Oct 15, 2012
Eye Surgery - Nov 2012
Lifes Adventures -  Priceless

No two day's are the same, are they?
Rerun
Member for Life
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 12242


Going through life tied to a chair!

« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2009, 02:05:53 PM »

Pelagia is absoutely right.  (see we do agree once in awhile)   :cuddle;

If optimal dialysis is considered a cure like a transplant is considered a cure (It is not but society thinks it is) then people will not donate.  They will be let off the hook as Pelagia said. 

Then there is the matter of $.  Medicare is being asked, yet again, to step up to the plate to not only save our lives, but to make us normal.  Well, if Medicare is smart then they will provide optimal dialysis in trade for disability and Social Security checks.  Fine, you are normal now get back to work. 

Be careful what you ask for....

If people are doing optimal dialysis now in the United States like this doctor, then it is available for those who really want it.  I'm on nocturnal which is considered optimal and Medicare pays for it.  What do you want???
Logged

Sunny
Elite Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1501


Sunny

« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2009, 03:27:05 PM »

It is my understanding that even optimal dialysis does NOT replace full kidney function. This means dialysis patients on optimal dialysis are still not able to do what the average normal human being can do and would still be considered disabled. Some may have enough energy to work with optimal dialysis. God knows you can make more $ working than you can collecting social security benefits. It's not like we want to be on disability collecting meager checks.
Logged

Sunny, 49 year old female
 pre-dialysis with GoodPastures
Hemodoc
Elite Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2110

WWW
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2009, 10:17:52 PM »

It is interesting viewing people's opinions on dialysis and transplant.  I have contended for a fair amount of time that the false notion of competetion between optimal dialysis and transplant has shaded the discussion negatively.  Even here among many who have had dialysis and transplants, the sense of competetion between the two modalities surfaces.  Yet, in many other nations, they have a completely differing view where optimal dialysis and available transplants are complementary and not competing.

I would counter a couple points first with the example of Bill Peckham and Shad Ireland.  How many normal folks could keep up with either one of these dialysis patients?  Before shoving accomplishments off to the side just becuase someone is on dialysis, perhaps we should consider these two examples among many. Zach is another example of an accomplished dialysis patient.

Further, the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of CKD patients worldwide will be treated primarily with dialysis.  The supply of organs limits the number of patients that can be offered a transplant.  Many have offered various methods of increasing donation or vending as some would have it, but I can't but help to think that denying optimal dialysis to anyone will improve donation rates.  Just my take on the issue, but why would anyone one dialysis not want all to have access to optimal dialysis?  By the way, I am still on in center standard therapy on a wait list for the NxStage.  My being an MD has offered little in the way of giving me any different treatment than the next person.  There are some things in this life that are equally bad for all, after all ,my flesh is quite the same as all of yours.  It is my hope that all would look for improving all renal replacement therapies since all fall short of anything that we can call a cure, including transplant.  With transplant, you simply trade one disease state for another, no matter the benefits or the risks, it is not a cure.

The fact remains that optimal dialysis is complementary to transplant and not competing against it.  Optimal dialysis improves transplant results since few have the option of transplant first.  Optimal dialysis reduces overall costs for dialysis patients.  Optimal dialysis saves lives during dialysis and after transplant.

The sad fact remains that many voices in the renal community have chosen to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of patients that could have benefited from optimal dialysis for just the same principle of not letting the truth out that some could do as well with dialysis as with a tranplant as far as survival is concerned.  I do not believe that treating someone well with dialysis can be compared to the freedom from dialysis that is implicit with transplant.  Perhaps that is the single most important benefit of transpalnt, freedom from dialysis.  There is still a decided benefit for transplant that is not in the least diminished by optimal dialysis.  I do not in the least believe that people would wish anyone to remain on dialysis if given the choice.  Once again, are we not only diminishing what a dialsyis patient can accomplish in their life, are we also underselling the true altruism of the many that do donate every year?

There remains no cure for failed kidneys, only choices between different treatment options.  Most transplant patients are themselves CKD-3 or 4 even after transplant which places them at significant morbidity compared to the general population.  Since few have the access to tranplant, shall we stand silent while the rest of us are subjected to poor outcomes that could be prevented by simply a few more hours of dialysis each week?  I am personally ashamed of our last place American mortality results.  I would hope that some simple changes could reduce the burden of suffering that is so prevalent in American dialysis units.  Surely improving these results will not diminish those who will choose to donate their own or their loved one's precious organs.  I see no such outcome by improving overall dialysis results.  Just my opinion.

Sincerely,

Peter Laird, MD
Dialysis patient
Optimal Dialysis Advocate
Logged

Peter Laird, MD
www.hemodoc.info
Diagnosed with IgA nephropathy 1998
Incenter Dialysis starting 2-1-2007
Self Care in Center from 4-15-2008 to 6-2-2009
Started  Home Care with NxStage 6-2-2009 (Qb 370, FF 45%, 40L)

All clinical and treatment related issues discussed on this forum are for informational purposes only.  You must always secure your own medical teams approval for all treatment options before applying any discussions on this site to your own circumstances.
monrein
Member for Life
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 8323


Might as well smile

« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2009, 11:51:23 AM »

I agree with you Peter and what strikes me as missing from the discussion about optimal dialysis is that so many more of us could continue working and paying our taxes and contributing to the economy and to society.  Zach and Bill are very good examples of what can be achieved with optimal dialysis and excellent self-care on top of that.  I worked full-time (teaching at a University) during my first bout of dialysis (5 years in all) most of which was home hemo and I also did many other things, like garden, cook, entertain and so on.  This time, I found that by going to 5 days a week I felt considerably better than with the standard three since I never had more than one day off at a time.  Nocturnal is even better for feeling closer to normal.  I live in Canada and in order to go to 5 days a week all I had to do was mention it to my neph and I started one week later.  We also, here in Toronto, have self-care clinics available since we can get more dialysis for less cost and involve patients more in their own care (that involvement seems to help patients take more responsibility for other aspects of looking after themselves better) and home dialysis is strongly encouraged for anyone capable of doing it.  I especially like the self-care clinic idea because that maximizes the use of the machines, cuts staffing costs and removes the stress that can be problematic when a partner is required to help or when dialysis is experienced as intruding on home life. 

For me personally, transplant has been my goal both times, but that in no way changes my belief that optimal dialysis ought to be pursued, for the reasons stated above and also because the better health a patient is in at the time of transplant (if that is an available option) the better the chances of a successful transplant, thereby further saving money for the healthcare system and returning optimal quality of life to renal patients.
Logged

Pyelonephritis (began at 8 mos old)
Home haemo 1980-1985 (self-cannulated with 15 gauge sharps)
Cadaveric transplant 1985
New upper-arm fistula April 2008
Uldall-Cook catheter inserted May 2008
Haemo-dialysis, self care unit June 2008
(2 1/2 hours X 5 weekly)
Self-cannulated, 15 gauge blunts, buttonholes.
Living donor transplant (sister-in law Kathy) Feb. 2009
First failed kidney transplant removed Apr.  2009
Second trx doing great so far...all lab values in normal ranges
Zach
Elite Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4820


"Still crazy after all these years."

« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2009, 12:16:25 PM »

I agree with you Peter and what strikes me as missing from the discussion about optimal dialysis is that so many more of us could continue working and paying our taxes and contributing to the economy and to society.  Zach and Bill are very good examples of what can be achieved with optimal dialysis and excellent self-care on top of that.  I worked full-time (teaching at a University) during my first bout of dialysis (5 years in all) most of which was home hemo and I also did many other things, like garden, cook, entertain and so on.  This time, I found that by going to 5 days a week I felt considerably better than with the standard three since I never had more than one day off at a time.  Nocturnal is even better for feeling closer to normal.  I live in Canada and in order to go to 5 days a week all I had to do was mention it to my neph and I started one week later.  We also, here in Toronto, have self-care clinics available since we can get more dialysis for less cost and involve patients more in their own care (that involvement seems to help patients take more responsibility for other aspects of looking after themselves better) and home dialysis is strongly encouraged for anyone capable of doing it.  I especially like the self-care clinic idea because that maximizes the use of the machines, cuts staffing costs and removes the stress that can be problematic when a partner is required to help or when dialysis is experienced as intruding on home life. 

For me personally, transplant has been my goal both times, but that in no way changes my belief that optimal dialysis ought to be pursued, for the reasons stated above and also because the better health a patient is in at the time of transplant (if that is an available option) the better the chances of a successful transplant, thereby further saving money for the healthcare system and returning optimal quality of life to renal patients.

 :bow;
Logged

Uninterrupted in-center (self-care) hemodialysis since 1982 -- 34 YEARS on March 3, 2016 !!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No transplant.  Not yet, anyway.  Only decided to be listed on 11/9/06. Inactive at the moment.  ;)
I make films.

Just the facts: 70.0 kgs. (about 154 lbs.)
Treatment: Tue-Thur-Sat   5.5 hours, 2x/wk, 6 hours, 1x/wk
Dialysate flow (Qd)=600;  Blood pump speed(Qb)=315
Fresenius Optiflux-180 filter--without reuse
Fresenius 2008T dialysis machine
My KDOQI Nutrition (+/ -):  2,450 Calories, 84 grams Protein/day.

"Living a life, not an apology."
okarol
Administrator
Member for Life
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 100933


Photo is Jenna - after Disneyland - 1988

WWW
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2009, 02:51:25 PM »



A kidney works 24 hours a day - it's crazy to think about dialysis being very effective on less than 15 hours a week!
Logged


Admin for IHateDialysis 2008 - 2014, retired.
Jenna is our daughter, bad bladder damaged her kidneys.
Was on in-center hemodialysis 2003-2007.
7 yr transplant lost due to rejection.
She did PD Sept. 2013 - July 2017
Found a swap living donor using social media, friends, family.
New kidney in a paired donation swap July 26, 2017.
Her story ---> https://www.facebook.com/WantedKidneyDonor
Please watch her video: http://youtu.be/D9ZuVJ_s80Y
Living Donors Rock! http://www.livingdonorsonline.org -
News video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-7KvgQDWpU
Sunny
Elite Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1501


Sunny

« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2009, 03:24:03 PM »

What I have noticed about renal disease is that our bodies can adjust to the diminishing function of our kidneys.
I am pre-dialysis and have gone from experiencing my kidneys functioning at 100% to 15% within eight years. This may give me a different perspective than many of you who have had renal disease for a lifetime. Because our bodies adjust, the insidious effects of this disease creep up on us unknowingly. Before you know it, you are but a remnant of your previous self, and since it has happened slowly over the years, you may not even realize it. I am here to tell you that we should fight for optimal treatment and it is critical that we do. You deserve more than what your bodies have been forced to adjust to over the course of your renal disease. You deserve to feel better than just 15% kidney function that in center Hemodialysis offers at 3 or 4 treatments per week for 3 to 4 hours. Don't settle for less. Optimal dialysis will allow you better treatment providing results better than just 15%. Don't let the body, which is programmed  to survive no matter what, fool you into thinking 20 hours of dialysis is enough. Optimal dialysis is the best outcome when dialysis is needed. If your lucky enough to get a transplant, then optimal dialysis will better prepare your body.
Logged

Sunny, 49 year old female
 pre-dialysis with GoodPastures
Wattle
Elite Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2306


« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2009, 05:25:26 PM »


 With transplant, you simply trade one disease state for another, no matter the benefits or the risks, it is not a cure.

 There is still a decided benefit for transplant that is not in the least diminished by optimal dialysis.  I do not in the least believe that people would wish anyone to remain on dialysis if given the choice. 

Hemodoc are you still happy to remain on dialysis long term or have you changed your mind on receiving a Transplant?
Logged

PKD
June 2005 Commenced PD Dialysis
July 13th 2009 Cadaveric 5/6 Antigen Match Transplant from my Special Angel
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
 

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.17 | SMF © 2019, Simple Machines | Terms and Policies Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!