what makes life worth living for you?

[kickingandscreaming]

I ask because I am really short on ideas about why I should not end my life.  I was recently diagnosed with arthritis of the left knee and arthritis of the right hip.  Between the two of them, I can barely walk.  I'm in pain and I'm limited and I walk like a combination of Frankestein and a duck.  I'm feeling especially useless as I can do practically nothing.  Life feels really pointless.

[GA_DAWG]

Sorry to hear this K&S. What makes it worth living to me is every day I get to spend with my wife and kids. Not all of them are easy and there are those where there is lots of pain, but then I think of never seeing them again and it is all worth it.

[kickingandscreaming]

And... if you didn't have a wife or kids?  Then what?

[smsnlv@gmail.com]

I'll be 73 come the 24th of this month, now with near complete kidney failure, 5% or less, that has been proceeded  by AO induced diabetes, hypertension, and ischemic heart disease with two bypasses and periodic tumors in the bladder.  I also have arthritis in my wrists and both ankles, enough that I have to use a walker part time if I have to walk a long distance or be on my feet an extended period of time.  What makes life worth living for me is that I have been determined to keep a positive attitude and try to be a testimony and inspiration to those who are in worse shape than me, especially when I see a young person sitting in chair across from me.  I'm not happy about my kidney failure or having to be on dialysis, but I refuse to fall into the "Oh woe is me" routine.  I make the best of it and am trying to expand my knowledge and find new friends.   

[kickingandscreaming]

You're very fortunate.  I clearly don't have such wisdom.  I'm very depressed now and see no future that I want to participate in.  I'm 77 and quite alone in the world.  No love.  No relationship.  Not even a dog anymore (she died last year).  My body is falling apart.   All I get to do is chores.  Nothing pleasurable.  I can't walk.  My heart doesn't work right and of course my kidneys are for the birds.  I'm also diabetic.   I think hospice would be the best thing for me at this level of bodily decay.

[Rainsbury]

What makes life worth living? Maybe getting a glimpse of the positive impact we have on others. I've been hovering on this site for about six years now, kickingandscreaming, and your honest posts have meant the world to me and have helped make the reality of dialysis in the near future a whole lot less scary. By 'showing up' on this site, supporting others and asking the hard questions you have helped me tremendously. I'm guessing I'm not the only lurker out here that feels the same. Just know you make a difference. I'm sorry you are hurting right now.

[kickingandscreaming]

Thank you, Rainsbury.  I'm glad I could help you.  Now I have to help myself.

[MooseMom]

I really hesitate to put my measly two cents in because you have a myriad of difficulties that, taken all together, seem impossible to untangle. 

I've spent quite some time trying to imagine how you might feel.  What you are facing is, unfortunately, what all too many older people are facing, particularly the loneliness.  It has become an epidemic, especially in China, Japan and in many countries in the West.  I have not seen any of these societies find a good solution to this epidemic.

If I were you, and I am not, I think the first thing I would do is to try to find a solution to your pain.  Pain saps your energy in every way imaginable.  Surely Big Pharma has come up with all sorts of nattily named drugs that might work for you. 

I am thinking that if you can control the pain, maybe you could then work on increasing your mobility.  Is there any possibility that a physical therapist might be useful?  Could a licensed therapist suggest some gentle movements that might restore some mobility?  It's amazing what a little bit of moving around can do for your spirits. 

But if you are feeling lonely in life, then why do all of this, right?  Creating a circle of friends/acquaintances is so so difficult, especially if you do not have the physical energy that interacting with people requires. 

I have never believed that the chronically ill have had our emotional or psychological needs met.  And if you are older, it is easy to feel alone in the world.  Again, if I were you, and I am not, I would seek professional assistance.  I would not be surprised if you are clinically depressed.  Why would you not be?  As I've said before, you are not the only person to find herself in this sort of predicament.  Not everyone has a lot of family nearby.  I certainly don't, so I can easily see myself one day being in exactly your situation, so your questions pop up in my own mind whenever I think about the future.  But maybe a psychologist has some ideas for people who are seeing their existence as "limited".  I know that suggesting a visit to a therapist can sound flippant.  Can you drive/get around on your own?

Again, not to sound "flippant", but do you think you could cope with getting another dog?

I know you are going through a particularly rough patch right now.  I am sorry and wish I had more to offer.  Please do not stop kicking and screaming just yet. 

[jambo101]

Sounds a lot like my lot in life, i have a bad back so sitting in that dialysis chair is a painful event, i tooam having difficulty walking, i'm a total burden on my wife and my beautiful kids live on the other side of the world, as some one who lived an exciting life i now feel trapped in a dialysis cage that i cant get out of, like you i'm wondering whats the point as my body falls apart bit by bit.

[kickingandscreaming]

I'm so sorry you can relate so well, jambo101.  I don't wish it on anyone.

Thank you MM for your suggestions.  I already am doing PT twice/wk.  Don't know if it's helping or not.  I am a psychologist (by former profession) so I already know a lot about mental health (including mine).   Also, I am a horrible patient as I  am a know it all.   And I've found few psychologists who are smart enough to put me in my place.  I can easily talk circles around them.

I think, a lot, about getting a dog, but not being able to walk makes that a fool's errand.  It would not be fair to inflict the life I live on a poor, innocent dog.  I also don't think I have long to live and I wouldn't want to take on a dog only to abandon it.

[MooseMom]

  Sorry, had to laugh at the image of you talking circles around psychologists!  A former psychologist must be a psychologist's nightmare patient.

I am curious, though, about what you do at PT.  I don't know much about it, so I'd be interested to know what type of things you are doing.  I hope it does help.  Do you anticipate getting to the point of being able to walk again, even if it is just at a moderate pace?  I see your point about not getting another dog, at least not right now.  I know this might sound all "psychologist-y", but is setting yourself a goal of getting mobile enough to warrant getting a dog a reachable goal for you?

Do you, in your heart of hearts, truly think you do not have long to live?  Is that your reasoning mind talking, or is that your mourning soul making a declaration?
 

[kickingandscreaming]

I find PT extremely boring.  It's very repetitive.  Move like this and then do it again and again.  I think it is actually helping.  But I have NO idea if it can mend me.  In arthritis, there is no cure for the arthritis.  It's a permanent condition.  The best you can hope for is to strengthen all the muscle groups involved to take the stress and pressure off the injured parts.  But it is extraordinarily boring.  It' has helped somewhat already, but I don't know how far I can go.

[UkrainianTracksuit]

The dialysis information provided at my local nephs’ office states that having co-morbidities and other health issues that make life too difficult to live are acceptable variables in choosing to stop dialysis or never start at all.

 If you feel it is too much, thinking clearly rather than negatively, the power is in your hands.

I’m at the opposite side of the spectrum: dealing with paediatric nephrologists and dialysis did not come late in life (extension of later years) versus something pushed to do to reach an average lifespan. It wasn’t a question of a “few more years” versus decades. But, I still commonly thought, “what is the point of life? I will never have a life that I WANT and because of that, I’ll never be happy."

Older patients would say they would continue to dialyse for their grandchildren: watch them grow up or been around for milestones. I often thought that was odd because people need a reason to live for themselves too. 

I don’t have children and no one relies on me. Young mother patients actually gain more sympathy and since they have children, there is more concern for them, to be able to raise their kids. I’m married but were I to die, my husband would move on and find someone less problematic. So, I didn’t use this whole “living for people” view to decide if MY LIFE (singular, just me) was worth living.



What was my reason to live? As bland and simple as it is, curiosity. There are events to watch, books to read and even hobby projects to create. I got into sewing and keeping indoor plants. I’m curious to know what the next day brings if I put my mind out there and find topics to research. A person is never bored this way.



The difference is that I knew there would be light at the end of the tunnel: I could get a transplant and have my body still (fairly) intact. I’m not sure what I would do as a senior citizen.



But, my grandfather died in his 90s. He did HD for over 10 years. He had awful arthritis and terrible knees because he was in the Great Patriotic War (World War II). There would be days he screamed about the pain and we knew spring months meant the hardest time of his year. In the beginning, he was fairly okay as he mainly got around: he travelled and made himself have a social life. Talking to people in the neighbourhood or going to the senior’s drop in center.

 He made himself do these things despite the pain and the pressure to stop dialysis due to his advanced age. He had to go up/down 12 stairs, with awful knees, to go to dialysis, and he still went. It wasn't easy but he still had that spark of life.

When his knees got so bad that he needed a wheelchair, he still kept going to dialysis. He just had a tenacity of life that again, he was curious as to what the next day brought. I’m telling you: he was in serious pain as well. But, due to his age, all they gave him was Tylenol. I slapped on some Mineral Ice for livestock on him and that worked for a bit.

One day, he just got to the point that he was tired and didn’t want to go on anymore. We didn’t really know he would die soon, but I guess he knew. The damned bugger still went to his last dialysis session though! And he just passed away in his sleep...



But had he not also had a curiosity of life, when he was confined to a wheelchair, I’m sure he would have questioned what was the point of his life too. As he would say, it’s where we place ourselves in life and we get what we give back.



One last point though I’m sure all of this trash means nothing to you. There is a documentary that I found really poignant when I’ve had existential crises. “15 Reasons to Live.” They all seem off the wall, small or large, but finding that reason lies within you, and if you are tired, or can’t find one after self-reflection, you are the master of your own ship. https://www.tvo.org/video/documentaries/15-reasons-to-live

[GA_DAWG]

UT, I think you misunderstand. The reason of seeing children or grandchildren grow up is not for THEM. That is the reason for ME, not them. I enjoy watching and being a part of my family. It is not living FOR them, but rather living BECAUSE of them. At least as the biggest part of why  go on. There are others, but they are the main reason.

[UkrainianTracksuit]

No, I don't misunderstand.

Let's not turn this into a semantics debate on K&S thread but here it as concise as possible. If you choose to do something BECAUSE of someone, you are still doing it FOR them. That is the main reason, core or root, of your intentions. A person manifests in their mind how that particular action works out. Between for or because, the impetus stays the same but the personalized view of your action differs. Views shape who benefits but at the beginning, that core root to do something for/because is the same. If you switch for or because in the sentence, Older patients would say they would continue to dialyse for their grandchildren you still get the same outcome and perceived meaning.

It's not a sin to have this view and no one said it was. It just does little to help those not in the same shoes or those younger patients that don't have such familial links. More often than not we're advised to look at external reasons (family) rather than internal reasons. Hence, one needs a personalized reason to live, above all else, even if external sources give joy. That's why I counsel new patients to say what is it, IN YOU, with no one else, nothing else, that makes your life worth living? That's a lot harder to answer because we've been taught joy comes from connections or possessions rather than self-foundation or self-reliance.

It's also a little futile to rehash this topic when K&S stated this is not her position and subsequently said, so what else is there? So, I'll leave it there.

[cassandra]

Well said UT


   

[Charlie B53]

Arthritis CAN be put into remission, and the FDA knows this ,but still refuses to allow the med to be used claiming there is too high a of risk for abuse.

Studies have PROVEN, trace amounts of cocaine, not even enough to get high, has reduced the swelling and pain of arthritis.

But that is only one type of pain.

I have chronic pain from damaged joints and massive muscle injuries.  I hate the drugged effects of opiates.  Fentenyal worked great, no high, but I built a tolerance so my Pain Dr switched me to Methadone.  It works!  and two years I haven't needed any increase.

Go see a Pain Specialist, it can change your life.

With your education and experience you well know how depression sneaks up, taking over with you becoming aware of it.   Think about it.

Philosophy can change an attitude.  Religion poses questions.

I always question my existence.  I constantly wonder what am I to be learning from this experience because I have the Belief that there MUST BE purpose, or I wouldln't exist.

Therefor there is yet something I need to accomplish before my time here is finished.

So simply, I will hang on until I am finished.  That isn't for me to decide.

Your life, experiences, have value and need to be shared.  How, Where, when, with Whom is for you to figure out.

I keep thinking that I need to drop in at our local Senior Center once or twice a week on my off days, see what's going on there.  It could be a start to my getting out of the house.













Sp mod Cas

[Michael Murphy]

I simply refuse to die while trump is still the lyin king.

[Charlie B53]

I don't want to turn this into a Political discussion, but I would like to see Congressional Term Limits.  They imposed a term limit on the Presidency, yet they consistently refuse to discuss a limit for themselves.  I compare our Congress to the Soviet Politburo, old, empowered, and corrupt.

Yet the Voters are stupid enough to believe all the campaign lies and keep them in office, repeatedly.

Always vote for the new guy, get the old one out.  Sort of a Voter imposed Term Limits.

'Nuff Said.

[jambo101]

Quote from trump in his rally in Orlando=

Quote:
Maybe if we really like it a lot and if things keep going like they’re going, we’ll go and we’ll do what we have to do, and we’ll have a three term presidency and a four, and a five.

[cassandra]

   

[Riki]

I have said this before.  I have 4 people in my life in which my world revolves around.  I'm like UkrainianTracksuit, in that I started this CKF journey earlier in life.  I was young enough that all decisions were made for me, so I pretty much just did what I'm told.  I don't do that so much anymore, and I sometimes wonder what the point is, I think of those 4 people.  I don't want to cause those people any unnecessary pain, and I know that ending my life would do that.  Someday, I may not have a choice, but as long as I do, I won't make it.

That being said, I try not to think of those types of things.  I'm always trying new things.  I think the idea of curiosity is a good one.  I just finished college.  I'm trying to start a new career (in my 40s!!).  I read a lot.  My friends give me gift cards for ebooks, as my visual impairment doesn't allow me to read actual books.  I'm thinking about getting a guide dog.  I travel.  I follow politics, both Canadian and American.  I've been trying to get on Jeopardy for years.  I WILL do it someday.  I will not let dialysis and blindness get in my way.  I credit being ill at such a young age has given me this attitude.

My mom and my best friend are both 20 years older than I am.  Neither are allowed to leave this world without me.