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Author Topic: What does "Setting the Base at 140" mean ?  (Read 3201 times)
Lindia
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« on: September 20, 2011, 09:09:58 PM »

Does that mean they are sodium profiling my hubby again ? ?    The head RN came over and messed with his machine, she has NEVER touched his machine, and one of the techs said that they were no longer sodium profiling him.   She replied she wasn't sodium profiling - she was setting his base to 140 ----  WHAT DOES that mean -- I DON"T trust her  ....      :sos;
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YLGuy
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 10:45:47 PM »

John Agar
March 10, 2011, 11:18 PM
What sodium level to set? … aahh! ... that opens a can of worms.

It is such a controversial topic and it so depends on the individual … and there-in lies the crux of my answer. What I amswer will be agreed or disagreed by as many as read it and there is no right answer. However, we do tend, whether for our convenience, our laziness, our lack of thought, our desperation, or our lack of understanding, to set both a ‘prescribed’ concentrate sodium and a machine sodium ‘setting’ for and across the dialysis service as a whole - on all machines, for all patients, in all rosters – and, then blushing, and with a sense of shame, look away!

There are two (2) sodium levels … the sodium level of the ‘mix’ that is in the manufactured concentrate (the ‘prescribed’) and the sodium that is dialed up on the machine itself (the ‘set’). In our NHD patients, we use a concentrate with a ‘prescribed’ level of 140 but also ‘set’ the machine at 140. I know this seems quite high – but, given the mean frequency of our NHD (5 nights/week) and the duration (8-9 hrs) and thus the low hourly UFR (mean 225-250), issues of high intra-dialytic weight gains and hypertension on the one hand or of UFR-induced intra-dialytic hypotension do not occur. If we were doing less frequent dialysis … say alternate night or 3 x week – even if still 8-9 hrs … we would likely shoot lower – say 136-138, but 140/140 seems to suit our long, frequent program.

If you are doing less frequent NHD – say 3 x week or alternate night, 136/136 would seem a fair approach.

There was a fad (back in the 1990s) for sodium modeling. This meant trying to work out, for any individual patient, what the set machine sodium level should be relative to the sodium of the concentrate, but this was fraught with problems, was time consuming, often failed to achieve an outcome and has dies a slow death – except from some devotees (to whom I take my hat off ) who still work at this.

We did it (sodium modeling) … we largely failed, or flagged – though by rights we shouldn’t have … and gave it away.

I don’t think Andrew Davenport would mind me copying in here an abstract from a paper he and his co-workers from the PanThames Renal Audit group published in Int J Artif Organs (May 2008 (31:5; 411-417) “ The importance of dialysate sodium concentration in determining interdialytic weight gains in chronic hemodialysis patients: the PanThames Renal Audit.

BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVES:
There is controversy as to the optimum dialysate sodium to be used for hemodialysis patients, with reports of hypertension and increased interdialytic weight gains with high sodium dialysates and intradialytic hypotension and cramps with low sodium dialysates.

METHODS:
We analyzed the effect of different dialysate sodium concentrations during a one-week period in an audit of 2187 established patients regularly receiving dialysis three times a week. Patients were given general dietary advice to restrict dietary sodium intake, but no systematic assessment of dietary sodium intake was undertaken.

RESULTS:
The prescription of a dialysate sodium concentration of 140 mmol/L and >140 mmol/L, was associated with greater interdialytic weight gains, 3.5% and 4.1% respectively, compared to 2.8% and 2.7% for those using dialysate sodium concentrations of 137 and 136 mmol/L, respectively (p0<.05).
The mean pulse pressure was greater patients dialyzing using a sodium of 140 mmol/L, compared to 136 mmol/L, 70 (13) vs 63 (15) mmHg (p<0.011).
In addition, 13.5% of patients using the highest sodium dialysate suffered symptomatic intradialytic hypotension requiring intravenous fluid resuscitation, compared to 2.7% who used the lowest sodium concentrate (p<0.05).

CONCLUSIONS: This analysis would support the use of lower dialysate sodium concentrations to aid in reducing interdialytic weight gains and subsequent intradialytic hypotension.

This abstract ‘nutshells’ the issues in dialysate sodium.

A higher set sodium … in Andrews’ abstract (above) they used 140+ as ‘high’ … will lead to the loss of less sodium (and water) during dialysis and thus a higher BP (hypertension) and a greater later interdialytic weight gain. As attempts are then made at the next dialysis to correct this greater weight gain, a higher UFR (not stated but inferred) is required, thus leading to a higher risk of intra-dialytic hypotension … and, my own addition (here) to this abstract would be that - there might also be a greater risk of myocardial ‘stunning’ as an association of that inter-dialytic BP drop.

But, as an aside, this was in conventional 3 x week facility-based dialysis ... not the 8-9hr x 5-6 nights/week model we broadly embrace in our home NHD program.

A lower set sodium … in Andrews’ abstract they used 136 or 135 … reduced the inter-dialytic weight and, as a result of the lower required UFR during dialysis (inferred) a lower rate of intra-dialytic hypotension. Cramping on dialysis is, however, more likely at the lower set sodium level.

We don’t, in all but problematic patients, dabble in sodium modeling or individual sodium setting. Maybe we should. But, it can get messy. It can lead – especially in facility-based care where the same machine is used for different patients – to muck-ups if the sodium set for one patient isn’t changed for the next.

As for conductivity – we set 13.7-14.3 as our lower/upper limits with a conductivity aim of 14.

http://forums.homedialysis.org/archive/index.php/t-2785.html?s=29fc27b22507832b2e61585d208d2917
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Riki
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 11:29:10 PM »

umm.. ok.. now say it like you were explaining it to a 6yr old... *LOL*
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Lindia
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2011, 05:19:17 AM »

Thanks YL Guy !     I'll have my hubby read Dr. Agars general take on this.   His first degree was in Microbiology, but that was in the 70's --  and he went into the finance field, so his knowledge is a little rusty.

Maybe we should wait and see if he gets thirsty, like he did on the sodium profiling that started at 145...  Maybe we should request the "base" to be 135 or 136 ---   dang ---  why is this SO COMPLICATED !   He is on 3 day a week, 4 hours a day --  until we can get trained on NxStage and get at home -  this same RN has misinformed us several times about the training -  and I am tired of it.
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lmunchkin
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 10:02:05 PM »

Linda, when are you scheduled to train for NxStage?  Are there any other clinics in your area that offer NxStage.  Girl, I understand your frustrations totally.  Don't let anyone tell you not to. 

Does your hubby have a fistula?  If not, get one asap.  You will be glad you chose NxStage, trust me!  Let me know!  You already know that the clinics are not "cutting it", so you are on the right track.  Hang in there and press this issue with NxStage.  If they don't want to do it, then get in touch with a clinic that will!

lmunchkin

 :kickstart;
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Bill Peckham
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 10:36:47 PM »

Back to fluids wanting to equal out, if the dialysate has a higher sodium concentration than the blood, sodium will transfer from the dialysate to the blood. Does anyone want a sodium dose as a byproduct of dialysis? Most people, but not all - as Dr Agar said people are different, keeping in mind if something is true for 80% of the people using dialysis in the US it still means there are 80,000 people it isn't true for - that the body wants the blood sodium to be less than 140, more like 138.

I think as a target, to maximize your long term outcome using hemodialysis you should aim for as steady a fluid balance as possible and that can only be done through controlling sodium and I'd rather have a dash of salt on my eggs, then get it needlessly, and routinely during dialysis. Depending on how long and frequently one dialyzed might change what sodium to use but I would have to be argued off 138 as the default.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 10:37:53 PM by Bill Peckham » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2011, 01:55:23 AM »

umm.. ok.. now say it like you were explaining it to a 6yr old... *LOL*

that thought crossed my mind too....
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Lindia
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2011, 07:05:46 AM »

Linda, when are you scheduled to train for NxStage?  Are there any other clinics in your area that offer NxStage.  Girl, I understand your frustrations totally.  Don't let anyone tell you not to. 

Does your hubby have a fistula?  If not, get one asap.  You will be glad you chose NxStage, trust me!  Let me know!  You already know that the clinics are not "cutting it", so you are on the right track.  Hang in there and press this issue with NxStage.  If they don't want to do it, then get in touch with a clinic that will!

 

Thanks for your suggestions.   We are really trying to get  into training - my hubby has a 10 year old fistula, never had to use it - until this year.  There is only ONE training center in Wichita, and our clinic misinformed us about getting into training --  they understood we wanted training asap - but failed to find out there is a 3 month waiting list !     GRRR  !!!   He has one established buttonhole, that he sticks himself, and it looks like we will have to start another one, because one hasn't panned out, partly due to more than one tech sticking him and messing it up.  Oh, and you'll find this funny - hubby has told them about IHD, and the head RN told him she was going to try to find a "positive" website for me -- HAHAH !   Do your JOB, (take good care of my man ) and  I won't be on your case --   :boxing;
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Lindia
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2011, 07:22:28 AM »

I think as a target, to maximize your long term outcome using hemodialysis you should aim for as steady a fluid balance as possible and that can only be done through controlling sodium and I'd rather have a dash of salt on my eggs, then get it needlessly, and routinely during dialysis. Depending on how long and frequently one dialyzed might change what sodium to use but I would have to be argued off 138 as the default.

Thanks so much for your input on this -  hubby has dialysis today, and  I will tell him to insist that his base be 138 ---  if they won't agree -  then we will call his neph,  they just don't get that he still has residual function !!   They want to treat everyone the same - and everyone is DIFFERENT and UNIQUE.
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