Phos in beans vs phos in meat

[MooseMom]

I have listened to several video clips by Indian (as in the subcontinent, not native American) renal dieticians.  As you know, many Indians are vegetarian.  I love a good curry, but there is extensive use of lentils, chickpeas, cream, potatoes and yogurt, and I always wondered what an Indian renal patient could eat.  Anyway, in these clips, there is discussion about the difference of the absorption rate of phos from meat and the rate of absorption of phos from beans.  Does anyone know more about this because I would much rather have a tarka dahl than any kind of meat.  I've looked at Davita's site, and they don't have much info there in this regard.

Here's a talk from the Renal support network about a vegetarian diet for the renal patient.  I find it a bit confusing and would love your input.

http://www.rsnhope.info/programs/kidneytalkshows/Chhaya_Patel/Chhaya_Patel_052010.php

[Jean]

MM it se3ems to me that she is saying that the beans have a slower absortive rate than meat does.

[MooseMom]

So does that mean that 3 oz of beans is safer than 3 oz of meat, phosphorically speaking?

[thegrammalady]

my nephew's wife is a dietitian and a vegetarian....hmmmmmmmmmmm....i think i'll have to ask her. as far as i knew phos is phos. i would dearly love to eat more vegetarian meals.

[boswife]

ok grammalady,, no *thinken* you'll have to ask her.........lets get to getten    It would be GREAT to know about this as im always on hubby about beans...    thanks   

[thegrammalady]

ok grammalady,, no *thinken* you'll have to ask her.........lets get to getten    It would be GREAT to know about this as im always on hubby about beans...    thanks 

i've already emailed rose    but i also did a bit of research on my own. the davita site sait that the absorbstion of phos from meat is about 70% and from beans 50%.

[Restorer]

I tried to investigate this once. As I remember, either some of the phosphorus in plant foods is tied up in phytates, which we can't absorb, or phytates inhibit some of the absorption of phosphorus. I can't remember which (maybe both to some degree?). The only real scientific paper I could find on the absorption of phosphorus from plants vs. from meat was at least half a century old, so I don't know how accurate it was, but it seemed to show that there wasn't such a significant difference.

Another issue is the bioavailability (absorption rate - where I'm using "rate" to refer to the total percentage absorbed) of the protein in plants vs. meat and dairy. On the dialysis diet, lean meat is good, even though it's pretty high in phosphorus and potassium, because it's more important to get enough protein, and meat has a lot of high-quality protein.

By high-quality protein, I mean protein with high bioavailability - a higher percentage of the protein is available to be incorporated into the body rather than burned immediately for energy. If you compare the amount of bioavailable protein in meat to the amount in plant foods, and compare that to the amount of phosphorus, meat has a much higher ratio of bioavailable protein-to-phosphorus than beans, or nuts, or any of the other "bad" things on the renal diet.

That's how I wish I could evaluate a lot of my foods. (Total protein times estimated bioavailability) divided by (total phosphorus minus amount of phosphorus in phytate). But that would be a lot of work and a lot of those numbers don't exist.

Sorry to ramble a bit... I always do that. I'll listen to that KidneyTalk podcast and throw in my thoughts here in a bit.

Edit: forgot to mention

So does that mean that 3 oz of beans is safer than 3 oz of meat, phosphorically speaking?

It means that 100 mg of phosphorus from beans is safer than 100 mg of phosphorus from meat. 100 g (about 3.5 oz) of meat has a lot more absorbable phosphorus than 100 g of kidney beans, but if you compare the protein: 1 gram of bioavailable protein from a chicken breast carries 6.5 mg of absorbed phosphorus with it; 1 gram of bioavailable protein from beans carries 16.2 mg of absorbed phosphorus with it.

So, if you're getting all your protein from beans and other vegetable sources, you're also getting a lot more phosphorus.

[boswife]

Cool!!  so at least he can *add* the beans into the meal w/o me freekin out on him.  I have been making him a meatloaf and using beef and turkey breast mixed.  I feel a little bit 'leaner' that way, and so far, he thinks it's great.  I used to make only turkey or chicken for me, but that was a no go to him.  We'll get there!

[Zach]

Another issue with beans is that they are considered "low quality" or incomplete proteins-- because many plant proteins lack one or more of the essential amino acids, or because they lack a proper balance of amino acids.

Meat, fish and poultry are considered "high quality" or complete proteins because they provide sufficient amounts of the essential amino acids.

Beans (legumes) also produce a greater amount of nitrogen (BUN) than high quality proteins.

And then there is the issue of potassium in beans.

Adding a small amount to the meat in a meal sounds fine.  Maybe take one extra binder pill.
As always, moderation is key.

And maybe referring to the charts as well:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

[MooseMom]

As I'm pre-dialysis, I'm supposed to limit my intake of animal protein.  I'm pretty good at watching my portion size, so perhaps from time to time, I could have a small bowl of lentil soup instead of meat.  I'm going to turn into a green bean in the not too distant future, I'm convinced.

[thegrammalady]

here is what my "neice" said:   "As far as I know, the phosphorus is going to act the same in the body regardless if it's from beans or meat.  What is different is that the phosphorus in most plant foods is less available for absorption compared to the phosphorus in meats.  However, I am sure that when you look at the high/low phosphorus food lists they take this into account and base the levels on what you are likely to absorb as well as the actual content in the food."

i think i'm on the same page as zach - eat a few beans and take an extra binder.

[Jean]

Zach is the Charles Krauthammer of Dialysis, so whatever he says, you can be pretty darned sure, he is right. I go with his moderation is key theme also.

[MooseMom]

Too true, Jean, too true.

[Zach]

 

[kristina]

My only input into the debate about beans is to say
I have been a vegetarian for over 39 years
and I have never been a great bean-eater
and since being in ESRF with a declining GFR (10-12%, no dialysis yet)
I have felt instinctively that my body can only take “easy-going” vegetarian food
and beans, for me, are just a little bit too rough.

I can take green lentils (no more than 25 gram dry weight per day,
soaked in filtered water overnight & boiled, with my vegetables
& two spoonfuls of lemon juice in a large quantity of filtered water for 35 minutes).