Change = more pork?

[paul.karen]

Well obama as we all know is a great Speaker.
But maybe it ends there.  His change is hiring many of Clinton;s ex henchmen.
he let Pelozi construct this friggen failout package.

I recall obama saying he would go through all bills old and NEW ESPECIALLY with a fine tooth comb line by line.  Well so much pork is in this new bill even after taking out enough pork to fill a slaughter house.  There is now talk of a NEW stimulus package after this one goes through.  One for even more money.

The first Tarp bill at the end of last year was a complete failure.  Banks took the money fired many people except there highpriced executives.  That stimulus was suppose to help keep jobs.  So we are on to stimulus package number 2 which will be around 900BILLION then the third stimulus bill is said to be over a Trillion dollors.

This is not a bashing thread.  But a thread about our future which sadly none of us has any say in.

Do you think we are on the right track.  ?

[willieandwinnie]

NO, It is a run on the Treasury and we will all pay. I say let some of these companies go under, someone will pick up the pieces and hopefully due a better job. 

[Sluff]

When will they learn that the more you put in a sinking ship the quicker it will sink.

[paris]

The ship has been sinking for a long time.  Last bail out for the banking industry didn't work so well.  I think we each need to take responsibility for as much as we can (ie. spending beyond our means, recycle, help each other) and stop relying on our politicians to clean up all our messes.    OK, I am done and will step off of my soap box!!     

[pelagia]

I personally support the notion of investing in the infrastructure we need for the future.  If we can put people to work while we do that it's a win-win situation.  Timothy Geithner knows that the Japanese got 1.3 yen for every yen they invested in infrastructure and 1.6 yen for every yen invested in education when they went through an economic stimulus in the 1990s.  And he also knows that their economic problems got worse because they didn't respond quickly enough.  In fact, their delay may be a reason that their economy has never fully recovered.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123369032435944457.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/world/asia/06japan.html

 

[BigSky]

I personally support the notion of investing in the infrastructure we need for the future.  If we can put people to work while we do that it's a win-win situation.  Timothy Geithner knows that the Japanese got 1.3 yen for every yen they invested in infrastructure and 1.6 yen for every yen invested in education when they went through an economic stimulus in the 1990s.  And he also knows that their economic problems got worse because they didn't respond quickly enough.  In fact, their delay may be a reason that their economy has never fully recovered.

The only problem is that roughly only 5% of this bloated stimulus bill is actually for infrastructure.  Far too much of this money is going to projects that will not stimulate anything.

The only thing I have seen Geithner knows for sure is how to commit tax fraud.

[pelagia]

The only problem is that roughly only 5% of this bloated stimulus bill is actually for infrastructure.  Far too much of this money is going to projects that will not stimulate anything.

The only thing I have seen Geithner knows for sure is how to commit tax fraud.

You can define stimulus as narrowly as you like. 

I am willing to go past building bridges and roads.  Direct job stimulus will get thumbs up from me.  My brother-in-law has been looking for a job in upstate NY for months.  He's a small business contractor and his work has dried up. It's never been a booming area, so maybe it is at the leading edge of the crisis.  But, think about it.  He's been working since he was 18, not taking handouts from anyone.  What should he do now at age 45?  Unemployment check?  Welfare?  McDonald's?  Spending for education will get thumbs up from me because I don't see that working in McDonald's offers anyone much of a future.  Spending for science and technology will get thumbs up from me too.  Why? Just look around at our everyday lives, consider our standard of living, and tell me how much of it depends on science and technological advances - sanitation, agriculture, medicine.  There are plenty of studies that show that technology and innovation create jobs.  There's no doubt that innovation will be key to staying ahead in an ever competitive global economy. 

[nursewratchet]

Something has to be done, besides letting people basically drown.  Schools, energy, infrastructure, lots of potential jobs there.

[kitkatz]

You have to be qualified to be a teacher and the job just gets harder and harder and no one knows what to do about the budget. 

[pelagia]

Well, I know that many young people want to be teachers (science and math teachers, even!) but don't make that choice because you can't live on a teacher's salary these days.

[paris]

Our school system just put a freeze on hiring.  Now the teachers will be worked harder, classes will increase in size and no one gets a raise.   Our public servents need more money--not the big business CEO's.   

Something has to be done, besides letting people basically drown. Schools, energy, infrastructure, lots of potential jobs there.

    Well said!   

[Sluff]

I sense a teachers strike coming soon.

[BigSky]

You can define stimulus as narrowly as you like. 

Money spent that creates no long term jobs  nor advances the work force for the future will not stimulate the economy.  Millions are going to be spent on stuff that will create no jobs and temp jobs at best, all it will do is get spent and we will be right back where we started.  No jobs, faltering economy because of it.

Infrastructure should have been the focus.  It creates a ripple affect throughout the economy putting lots of people to work.  Not to mention updating the system for the future.   Teaching STD prevention?  Not many jobs if any will be created and the ripple affect to other areas will be zilch to pretty much none.

90 million to educate people about dtv.  WTF?  This has been talked about for over a year.  Spend that 90 million on roads, schools etc.  The people who have ignored the info on dtv the past year really dont need educated anymore on the matter. 

Some of the stuff it is being spent on is indeed laudable, but its not going to stimulate the economy in the manner needed to keep it going.


You should really look into where some of this money is going. Not the general overview either, the actual nuts and bolts of where this money is going.  The wish lists.

In my own area there is millions going to projects that will stimulate nothing and are a complete waste.  But everyone wants to be a good little piggie and line up at the federal trough when money is being given out.  Get your money for nothing...........

[BigSky]

"There is no disagreement that we need action by our government, a recovery plan that will help to jumpstart the economy."

— PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA, JANUARY 9 , 2009

With all due respect Mr. President, that is not true.

Notwithstanding reports that all economists are now Keynesians and that we all support a big increase in the burden of government, we do not believe that more government spending is a way to improve economic performance. More government spending by Hoover and Roosevelt did not pull the United States economy out of the Great Depression in the 1930s. More government spending did not solve Japan's "lost decade" in the 1990s. As such, it is a triumph of hope over experience to believe that more government spending will help the U.S. today. To improve the economy, policy makers should focus on reforms that remove impediments to work, saving, investment and production. Lower tax rates and a reduction in the burden of government are the best ways of using fiscal policy to boost growth.

    * Burton Abrams, Univ. of Delaware
    * Douglas Adie, Ohio University
    * Ryan Amacher, Univ. of Texas at Arlington
    * J.J. Arias, Georgia College & State University
    * Howard Baetjer, Jr., Towson University
    * Stacie Beck, Univ. of Delaware
    * Don Bellante, Univ. of South Florida
    * James Bennett, George Mason University
    * Bruce Benson, Florida State University
    * Sanjai Bhagat, Univ. of Colorado at Boulder
    * Mark Bils, Univ. of Rochester
    * Alberto Bisin, New York University
    * Walter Block, Loyola University New Orleans
    * Cecil Bohanon, Ball State University
    * Michele Boldrin, Washington University in St. Louis
    * Donald Booth, Chapman University
    * Michael Bordo, Rutgers University
    * Samuel Bostaph, Univ. of Dallas
    * Scott Bradford, Brigham Young University
    * Genevieve Briand, Eastern Washington University
    * George Brower, Moravian College
    * James Buchanan, Nobel laureate
    * Richard Burdekin, Claremont McKenna College
    * Henry Butler, Northwestern University
    * William Butos, Trinity College
    * Peter Calcagno, College of Charleston
    * Bryan Caplan, George Mason University
    * Art Carden, Rhodes College
    * James Cardon, Brigham Young University
    * Dustin Chambers, Salisbury University
    * Emily Chamlee-Wright, Beloit College
    * V.V. Chari, Univ. of Minnesota
    * Barry Chiswick, Univ. of Illinois at Chicago
    * Lawrence Cima, John Carroll University
    * J.R. Clark, Univ. of Tennessee at Chattanooga
    * Gian Luca Clementi, New York University
    * R. Morris Coats, Nicholls State University
    * John Cochran, Metropolitan State College
    * John Cochrane, Univ. of Chicago
    * John Cogan, Hoover Institution, Stanford University
    * John Coleman, Duke University
    * Boyd Collier, Tarleton State University
    * Robert Collinge, Univ. of Texas at San Antonio
    * Lee Coppock, Univ. of Virginia
    * Mario Crucini, Vanderbilt University
    * Christopher Culp, Univ. of Chicago
    * Kirby Cundiff, Northeastern State University
    * Antony Davies, Duquesne University
    * John Dawson, Appalachian State University
    * Clarence Deitsch, Ball State University
    * Arthur Diamond, Jr., Univ. of Nebraska at Omaha
    * John Dobra, Univ. of Nevada, Reno
    * James Dorn, Towson University
    * Christopher Douglas, Univ. of Michigan, Flint
    * Floyd Duncan, Virginia Military Institute
    * Francis Egan, Trinity College
    * John Egger, Towson University
    * Kenneth Elzinga, Univ. of Virginia
    * Paul Evans, Ohio State University
    * Eugene Fama, Univ. of Chicago
    * W. Ken Farr, Georgia College & State University
    * Hartmut Fischer, Univ. of San Francisco
    * Fred Foldvary, Santa Clara University
    * Murray Frank, Univ. of Minnesota
    * Peter Frank, Wingate University
    * Timothy Fuerst, Bowling Green State University
    * B. Delworth Gardner, Brigham Young University
    * John Garen, Univ. of Kentucky
    * Rick Geddes, Cornell University
    * Aaron Gellman, Northwestern University
    * William Gerdes, Clarke College
    * Michael Gibbs, Univ. of Chicago
    * Stephan Gohmann, Univ. of Louisville
    * Rodolfo Gonzalez, San Jose State University
    * Richard Gordon, Penn State University
    * Peter Gordon, Univ. of Southern California
    * Ernie Goss, Creighton University
    * Paul Gregory, Univ. of Houston
    * Earl Grinols, Baylor University
    * Daniel Gropper, Auburn University
    * R.W. Hafer, Southern Illinois
    * University, Edwardsville
    * Arthur Hall, Univ. of Kansas
    * Steve Hanke, Johns Hopkins
    * Stephen Happel, Arizona State University
    * Frank Hefner, College of Charleston
    * Ronald Heiner, George Mason University
    * David Henderson, Hoover Institution, Stanford University
    * Robert Herren, North Dakota State University
    * Gailen Hite, Columbia University
    * Steven Horwitz, St. Lawrence University
    * John Howe, Univ. of Missouri, Columbia
    * Jeffrey Hummel, San Jose State University
    * Bruce Hutchinson, Univ. of Tennessee at Chattanooga
    * Brian Jacobsen, Wisconsin Lutheran College
    * Jason Johnston, Univ. of Pennsylvania
    * Boyan Jovanovic, New York University
    * Jonathan Karpoff, Univ. of Washington
    * Barry Keating, Univ. of Notre Dame
    * Naveen Khanna, Michigan State University
    * Nicholas Kiefer, Cornell University
    * Daniel Klein, George Mason University
    * Paul Koch, Univ. of Kansas
    * Narayana Kocherlakota, Univ. of Minnesota

    * Marek Kolar, Delta College
    * Roger Koppl, Fairleigh Dickinson University
    * Kishore Kulkarni, Metropolitan State College of Denver
    * Deepak Lal, UCLA
    * George Langelett, South Dakota State University
    * James Larriviere, Spring Hill College
    * Robert Lawson, Auburn University
    * John Levendis, Loyola University New Orleans
    * David Levine, Washington University in St. Louis
    * Peter Lewin, Univ. of Texas at Dallas
    * Dean Lillard, Cornell University
    * Zheng Liu, Emory University
    * Alan Lockard, Binghampton University
    * Edward Lopez, San Jose State University
    * John Lunn, Hope College
    * Glenn MacDonald, Washington
    * University in St. Louis
    * Michael Marlow, California
    * Polytechnic State University
    * Deryl Martin, Tennessee Tech University
    * Dale Matcheck, Northwood University
    * Deirdre McCloskey, Univ. of Illinois, Chicago
    * John McDermott, Univ. of South Carolina
    * Joseph McGarrity, Univ. of Central Arkansas
    * Roger Meiners, Univ. of Texas at Arlington
    * Allan Meltzer, Carnegie Mellon University
    * John Merrifield, Univ. of Texas at San Antonio
    * James Miller III, George Mason University
    * Jeffrey Miron, Harvard University
    * Thomas Moeller, Texas Christian University
    * John Moorhouse, Wake Forest University
    * Andrea Moro, Vanderbilt University
    * Andrew Morriss, Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
    * Michael Munger, Duke University
    * Kevin Murphy, Univ. of Southern California
    * Richard Muth, Emory University
    * Charles Nelson, Univ. of Washington
    * Seth Norton, Wheaton College
    * Lee Ohanian, Univ. of California, Los Angeles
    * Lydia Ortega, San Jose State University
    * Evan Osborne, Wright State University
    * Randall Parker, East Carolina University
    * Donald Parsons, George Washington University
    * Sam Peltzman, Univ. of Chicago
    * Mark Perry, Univ. of Michigan, Flint
    * Christopher Phelan, Univ. of Minnesota
    * Gordon Phillips, Univ. of Maryland
    * Michael Pippenger, Univ. of Alaska, Fairbanks
    * Tomasz Piskorski, Columbia University
    * Brennan Platt, Brigham Young University
    * Joseph Pomykala, Towson University
    * William Poole, Univ. of Delaware
    * Barry Poulson, Univ. of Colorado at Boulder
    * Benjamin Powell, Suffolk University
    * Edward Prescott, Nobel laureate
    * Gary Quinlivan, Saint Vincent College
    * Reza Ramazani, Saint Michael's College
    * Adriano Rampini, Duke University
    * Eric Rasmusen, Indiana University
    * Mario Rizzo, New York University
    * Richard Roll, Univ. of California, Los Angeles
    * Robert Rossana, Wayne State University
    * James Roumasset, Univ. of Hawaii at Manoa
    * John Rowe, Univ. of South Florida
    * Charles Rowley, George Mason University
    * Juan Rubio-Ramirez, Duke University
    * Roy Ruffin, Univ. of Houston
    * Kevin Salyer, Univ. of California, Davis
    * Pavel Savor, Univ. of Pennsylvania
    * Ronald Schmidt, Univ. of Rochester
    * Carlos Seiglie, Rutgers University
    * William Shughart II, Univ. of Mississippi
    * Charles Skipton, Univ. of Tampa
    * James Smith, Western Carolina University
    * Vernon Smith, Nobel laureate
    * Lawrence Southwick, Jr., Univ. at Buffalo
    * Dean Stansel, Florida Gulf Coast University
    * Houston Stokes, Univ. of Illinois at Chicago
    * Brian Strow, Western Kentucky University
    * Shirley Svorny, California State
    * University, Northridge
    * John Tatom, Indiana State University
    * Wade Thomas, State University of New York at Oneonta
    * Henry Thompson, Auburn University
    * Alex Tokarev, The King's College
    * Edward Tower, Duke University
    * Leo Troy, Rutgers University
    * David Tuerck, Suffolk University
    * Charlotte Twight, Boise State University
    * Kamal Upadhyaya, Univ. of New Haven
    * Charles Upton, Kent State University
    * T. Norman Van Cott, Ball State University
    * Richard Vedder, Ohio University
    * Richard Wagner, George Mason University
    * Douglas M. Walker, College of Charleston
    * Douglas O. Walker, Regent University
    * Christopher Westley, Jacksonville State University
    * Lawrence White, Univ. of Missouri at St. Louis
    * Walter Williams, George Mason University
    * Doug Wills, Univ. of Washington Tacoma
    * Dennis Wilson, Western Kentucky University
    * Gary Wolfram, Hillsdale College
    * Huizhong Zhou, Western Michigan University

Additional economists who have signed the statement

    * Lee Adkins, Oklahoma State University
    * William Albrecht, Univ. of Iowa
    * Donald Alexander, Western Michigan University
    * Geoffrey Andron, Austin Community College
    * Nathan Ashby, Univ. of Texas at El Paso
    * George Averitt, Purdue North Central University
    * Charles Baird, California State University, East Bay
    * Timothy Bastian, Creighton University
    * John Bethune, Barton College
    * Robert Bise, Orange Coast College
    * Karl Borden, University of Nebraska
    * Donald Boudreaux, George Mason University
    * Ivan Brick, Rutgers University
    * Phil Bryson, Brigham Young University
    * Richard Burkhauser, Cornell University
    * Edwin Burton, Univ. of Virginia
    * Jim Butkiewicz, Univ. of Delaware
    * Richard Cebula, Armstrong Atlantic State University
    * Don Chance, Louisiana State University
    * Robert Chatfield, Univ. of Nevada, Las Vegas
    * Lloyd Cohen, George Mason University
    * Peter Colwell, Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
    * Michael Connolly, Univ. of Miami
    * Jim Couch, Univ. of North Alabama
    * Eleanor Craig, Univ. of Delaware
    * Michael Daniels, Columbus State University
    * A. Edward Day, Univ. of Texas at Dallas
    * Stephen Dempsey, Univ. of Vermont
    * Allan DeSerpa, Arizona State University
    * William Dewald, Ohio State University
    * Jeff Dorfman, Univ. of Georgia
    * Lanny Ebenstein, Univ. of California, Santa Barbara
    * Michael Erickson, The College of Idaho
    * Jack Estill, San Jose State University
    * Dorla Evans, Univ. of Alabama in Huntsville
    * Frank Falero, California State University, Bakersfield
    * Daniel Feenberg, National Bureau of Economic Research
    * Eric Fisher, California Polytechnic State University
    * Arthur Fleisher, Metropolitan State College of Denver
    * William Ford, Middle Tennessee State University
    * Ralph Frasca, Univ. of Dayton
    * Joseph Giacalone, St. John's University
    * Adam Gifford, California State Unviersity, Northridge
    * Otis Gilley, Louisiana Tech University
    * J. Edward Graham, University of North Carolina at Wilmington
    * Richard Grant, Lipscomb University
    * Gauri-Shankar Guha, Arkansas State University
    * Darren Gulla, Univ. of Kentucky
    * Dennis Halcoussis, California State University, Northridge
    * Richard Hart, Miami University
    * James Hartley, Mount Holyoke College
    * Thomas Hazlett, George Mason University
    * Scott Hein, Texas Tech University
    * Bradley Hobbs, Florida Gulf Coast University
    * John Hoehn, Michigan State University
    * Daniel Houser, George Mason University

    * Thomas Howard, University of Denver
    * Chris Hughen, Univ. of Denver
    * Marcus Ingram, Univ. of Tampa
    * Joseph Jadlow, Oklahoma State University
    * Sherry Jarrell, Wake Forest University
    * Carrie Kerekes, Florida Gulf Coast University
    * Robert Krol, California State University, Northridge
    * James Kurre, Penn State Erie
    * Tom Lehman, Indiana Wesleyan University
    * W. Cris Lewis, Utah State University
    * Stan Liebowitz, Univ. of Texas at Dallas
    * Anthony Losasso, Univ. of Illinois at Chicago
    * John Lott, Jr., Univ. of Maryland
    * Keith Malone, Univ. of North Alabama
    * Henry Manne, George Mason University
    * Richard Marcus, Univ. of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
    * Timothy Mathews, Kennesaw State University
    * John Matsusaka, Univ. of Southern California
    * Thomas Mayor, Univ. of Houston
    * W. Douglas McMillin, Louisiana State University
    * Mario Miranda, The Ohio State University
    * Ed Miseta, Penn State Erie
    * James Moncur, Univ. of Hawaii at Manoa
    * Charles Moss, Univ. of Florida
    * Tim Muris, George Mason University
    * John Murray, Univ. of Toledo
    * David Mustard, Univ. of Georgia
    * Steven Myers, Univ. of Akron
    * Dhananjay Nanda, University of Miami
    * Stephen Parente, Univ. of Minnesota
    * Allen Parkman, Univ. of New Mexico
    * Douglas Patterson, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and University
    * Timothy Perri, Appalachian State University
    * Mark Pingle, Univ. of Nevada, Reno
    * Ivan Pongracic, Hillsdale College
    * Richard Rawlins, Missouri Southern State University
    * Thomas Rhee, California State University, Long Beach
    * Christine Ries, Georgia Institute of Technology
    * Nancy Roberts, Arizona State University
    * Larry Ross, Univ. of Alaska Anchorage
    * Timothy Roth, Univ. of Texas at El Paso
    * Atulya Sarin, Santa Clara University
    * Thomas Saving, Texas A&M University
    * Eric Schansberg, Indiana University Southeast
    * John Seater, North Carolina University
    * Alan Shapiro, Univ. of Southern California
    * Frank Spreng, McKendree University
    * Judith Staley Brenneke, John Carroll University
    * John E. Stapleford, Eastern University
    * Courtenay Stone, Ball State University
    * Avanidhar Subrahmanyam, UCLA
    * Scott Sumner, Bentley University
    * Clifford Thies, Shenandoah University
    * William Trumbull, West Virginia University
    * Gustavo Ventura, Univ. of Iowa
    * Marc Weidenmier, Claremont McKenna College
    * Robert Whaples, Wake Forest University
    * Gene Wunder, Washburn University
    * John Zdanowicz, Florida International University
    * Jerry Zimmerman, Univ. of Rochester
    * Joseph Zoric, Franciscan University of Steubenville

http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus09/alternate_version.html

[Wenchie58]

Someone need a hobby?

 

[jbeany]

Bush lowered the taxes on the rich - and look where it got us!  So much for lower taxes helping the economy. . .

[paul.karen]

Lowering the taxs made MANY jobs and the economy jumped and was doing well.

The real culprit is Freddie mac and Fannie Mae giving undocumented loans to anyone who came to them.
When the congress became run by democrats and this fact was brought to there attention they shooed it aside like it was no big deal.  Well here we are several years later.
Bottom line is we are where we are and we do need to jump start the economy.   But after this second bailout goes through which sounds good but in reality all the redtape and permits and bidding may take up to a year to get any shovels in the ground.  It isnt like the hug a tree groups wont be out and trying to save some fruit flies and swamp land.  Hopefully this bill will stay under 900 BILLION.

what truly scares me however as far as bailouts go is that we may give up to 2 TRILLION dollars to the banks.  We all saw how good the first round of bank monies went.
Oboma wants to buy bad debt?  You cant make money off bad debt it is liquid and should be made so.

It is interesting to watch to say the least.  I hope it will work.  Even Biden has doubts about it as do many other dems.
This time next year China may own over half of the USA>

[BigSky]

Bush lowered the taxes on the rich - and look where it got us!  So much for lower taxes helping the economy. . .

The tax cuts on the rich never got us into this problem.  You also seem to forget that the lower tax classes also got tax cuts that were on par and better than those in the "rich" income bracket.

I might add those Bush tax cuts for the middle class and lower income brackets were far better then the whopping $13 a week tax cut under Obama.  Funny how the media fawns over $13 a week.

 In fact because of those tax cuts the rich actually shouldered a larger burden of the taxes than they did before.


The reason why we got into this problem is just as paul.karen stated.

[nursewratchet]

Someone need a hobby?

 

  Too much time on our hands???

[mikey07840]

I am hopeful that the stimulus package will help the economy. However, may I remind everyone that our new president has been in office less than a month. Perhaps we should give his ideas a little time to make an impact. I don't think that we got our economy in the shape it is in right now in a matter of weeks. I think it will take more than a month or two for any solution or program to make an impact.