How do you address your doctors?

[cariad]

Cariad, just skip over the parts of my posts that you don't like.  I won't mind, I promise.  Thanks.

It's actually not a matter of being concerned for whether or not you mind, it is that I started this topic and would appreciate people showing the same respect for me that they have demanded of others. Please do not tell me that I should just skip over parts that are off topic, it is one of those basic rules of the forum that I think the mods have made clear that they would appreciate you and me and everyone else trying to follow. I've asked if you could please take this one, long-standing conversation elsewhere and you've basically said 'no, you should just ignore the disruption'. I truly don't understand that attitude, but I am not the type to go to mods about these things, so have at it if that's the way you want to treat me.

Since you are asking for opinions, here's mine.  Upon further review and taking in mind something that hemodoc had posted, I think it is disrespectful to call a doctor by anything other than "Dr. Whatever".  That doctor has worked very hard for the privilege and should be accorded the respect that comes from that hard work.  If you do not respect your doctor enough to think s/he deserves to be called Dr., then change doctors.  I did not work hard to earn the privilege to be called by my first name, so I don't mind it if that's what my doctor calls me.  I don't view the doctor/patient relationship as some sort of power play.  All I want is for my doctor to be very very very good at what s/he does. 

It is also extremely dangerous to become friendly with a doctor, and here's why I believe this.  My parents engaged the services of an attorney some decades ago.  He became a family friend and would even come out to the house to conduct business.  I have memories of my dad and this attorney relaxing on the back verandah and having drinks.  He assisted in writing both of their wills.  He managed the legal obstacles that come with owning property in various states with ancient inheritance laws.  He showed up at both of their funerals.  Clearly, my parents trusted him.  I had to work with him when my mother died, and he did a good job, but then he did something that was so incredibly unethical that I reported him.  He became a sniveling creature, insulting my husband and myself in his official response to the investigators, and then he told me that he just couldn't understand what I was doing because I had been "his favorite client".  It cost me a lot of time and money to have to fire him while at the same time try to find a replacement.  He knew about my health issues, and to this day I believe he was trying to swindle me because he thought my illness made me stupid and vulnerable.

Doctors and attorneys both can all too easily be worked into patients'/clients' personal lives.  It can be a catastrophic mistake to allow that to happen.

Cariad, I know trust is huge with you as it is with me, too, and as it is with all of us.  You can trust your doctor without having to be on a first name basis with him.  I've been seeing my neph for over 10 years now, and he has been nothing but stellar.  I have trusted him with my life, and he came through for me.  We've had conversations ranging from how Coco Chanel was a Nazi lover to the beauties of Edinburgh architecture.  He's met my son.  But I would NEVER call him by his first name.  It's disrespectful.  If he wanted to become my friend, I'd change doctors.  While I am glad that you are so comfortable with Joe, what you've described raises all sorts of red flags in my mind.  And THAT's my opinion for what it's worth to you.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I am not really seeking advice on what to do in my personal situation as there is really no way that anyone but Gwyn and me would really be able to speak to that. I am just interested in hearing how people address their own doctors, and if they know why. Trust, respect, professional distance, those are the types of explanations that I find interesting, and perhaps a bit of background on why these things matter to some of us more than others.

[cariad]

I always use Doctor when addressing them. They see me in so many bad situations. I can't afford to keep secrets or allow modesty to keep me from getting the right treatment. So for me, even the docs I feel most secure with and think are so fabulous, I like to keep that professional boundary. I would feel really weird if "John" ordered a foley and was still in the room ordering other stuff. I don't care if "Dr Doe" is working on his job.

This is fascinating, jeannea. The distinction doesn't help me to that extent, but it's interesting that you seem to feel less embarrassment by using surnames. I guess it's a constant reminder that they are doing a job and can be expected to control any emotional reaction (like 'ew, gross' or similar) so you feel you can be more open with them. Thanks for adding your perspective.

And yes they worked hard and earned it. Although I know at the Children's Hospital my niece goes to, a lot of docs will be Dr Jennifer. It seems to make the kids feel better.

This is where I disagree with quite a few members. I'm sure most of them have worked hard and continue to do so, and I've worked hard for my degrees, and as a mom, and as a volunteer and in my current job.  I am not sure why it is a cultural convention to put doctors on a pedestal, above other professions that are every bit as challenging, just in a different way. I think the sheer emotional fortitude that it takes to be a good teacher should be constantly lauded, but I seem to be in the minority on this opinion.

[cariad]

I always use 'George'  or 'Catherine' when speaking with Mum's Nephs...

Refer to my own docs, both GP and Hospital Consultants, Cardiologists, Respiratory, Ortho., etc.  by their first names, too...

I go by the rule, if they refer to me, the customer, by my first name, I do likewise... It has served me well so far!....

I think if I were asked not to, I'd be fine with that... So long as they refer to me a Miss X...

Darth....

I completely agree with this. It is one of the only professions where the client is expected to be deferential to the employee (or contractor or however one might view it). It certainly does NOT work this way in my husband's profession, nor at my job, nor should it.

I'm curious, Darth, since I assume you only used surnames for health professionals when you were a child, do you remember when you decided that you were going to change your approach?
 
I have resolved to have that rule in the past - I'll address you as you address me - but it tends to fall apart in practice. I think many of the doctors start off calling me Mrs. and then all of a sudden switch, and because I am used to people calling me by my first name I don't think I notice straight away, but it definitely suggests a power differential which I find a bit more wrong with each passing year. Now that I am older than some of the doctors I see, it seems even more ridiculous for me to be using their surname while they use my first name. I think in this country it is far more common for everyone to refer to each other with surnames, though, so it is less an issue here. I don't even know most first names of my kids' teachers because the convention is 'Mr' and 'Miss/Mrs.', so we all refer to each other that way.

Personally, I think I would have taken to using Dr. Jon or Dr. Annie as a child, but it just didn't seem to be a thing back then. I heard an interview about 10 years ago with a brilliant St. Jude's doctor (famous pediatric cancer hospital in the states) and he only used his first name, using the line that 'Dr. Whatever' was his father. The memory stuck with me because I was so impressed with that.

I like to put people at ease, so I have tendency to also, upon being addressed as 'Mrs' blurt out 'Please, call me [first name]'. It would be great if more doctors would say this, but I've never heard it in all my years, and of course many people prefer to use 'Dr.' for a variety of reasons, so maybe it's just as well.

[Darthvadar]

Hi Cariad.....

Your question about when I decided to refer to my docs by their first name, as they refer to me by mine, is an interesting one...

I suppose it was around the time I started working, and paying tax... And when I started paying professional fees to them... I felt that as a paying customer/client/patient, I had absolutely no need to be deferential to them... I'm just of the opinion that however hard they have worked/studied to get where they are (and good luck to them), they are getting paid either directly or indirectly by me to provide a service, they're not doing me any favours... I have the same approach to anybody providing me with a service that I'm paying for... Be that dental, financial, legal, etc... Perhaps if they were unpaid volunteers, and doing me a favour, I might think differently...

Darth...

[MooseMom]

Cariad, I was not offering advice as I am sure you and Gwyn will make the right choice for yourselves.  However, I do understand that when I posted "You can trust your doctor...", it sounded like I was speaking to you and only to you.  I should have written, "One can trust one's doctor..." or something to that effect.

You make a very good point that most of us who work hard do not have titles.  I'm not sure what to do about that, but I am not sure that this makes "Dr." unsatisfactory.  I know that when I use Dr., I am not by definition putting him/her on a pedestal.  It's just a customary term. 

I have no doubt that you worked hard for all of your degrees, and if any of them are PhD.s, I'd be happy to call you "Dr." if that's what you'd like.  If anyone I met was a doctor of, say, astrophysics or of some other field, I'd be happy to call them Dr., too.

Perhaps the problem is that we have no customary ways of addressing people of most professions.

Darth, your post is VERY interesting.  I'd never thought about it that way!  Our taxes go to paying the salaries for our military and our government officials, but I think I'd still call a retired general "General xxx", and I'd still call a sitting president "President xxxxx".   

I do have a question.  While I lived in England, the custom at that time was to call a consultant "Mr".  Addressing a consultant as "Dr." was considered to be very bad form.  Only junior doctors were called "Dr."  Oh, and a consultant's SHO was a "Mr.", also.  Is this still the case? 

[MooseMom]

Oh, and jeannea, I agree with you.  I feel the same about professional distance!

This is a REALLY interesting discussion!

[Darthvadar]

Hi Moose....

Yes, the DR/Mr issue is still there.... It's Mr if a surgeon, Dr if not!... Have no idea why....

I suppose another issue for me is that University Education was free here for many years, and is still very heavily subsidised... So I feel that as I'm contributing a hefty amount of the cost of training a doctor, and paying for their services, I'm in no way 'in their debt' for receiving said services!... I feel that way though about all professional services!...

Love to all....

Darth....

[MooseMom]

Hi Moose....

Yes, the DR/Mr issue is still there.... It's Mr if a surgeon, Dr if not!... Have no idea why....

Oh, that's interesting!  Just one more thing to cloud the issue. 

I suppose another issue for me is that University Education was free here for many years, and is still very heavily subsidised... So I feel that as I'm contributing a hefty amount of the cost of training a doctor, and paying for their services, I'm in no way 'in their debt' for receiving said services!... I feel that way though about all professional services!...

I can understand that!

[Hemodoc]

I always use 'George'  or 'Catherine' when speaking with Mum's Nephs...

Refer to my own docs, both GP and Hospital Consultants, Cardiologists, Respiratory, Ortho., etc.  by their first names, too...

I go by the rule, if they refer to me, the customer, by my first name, I do likewise... It has served me well so far!....

I think if I were asked not to, I'd be fine with that... So long as they refer to me a Miss X...

Darth....

Exactly as we were taught in medical school. If you expect to be called by your formal tital, show that same respect to your patients. It goes both ways.

[cariad]

Hi Cariad.....

Your question about when I decided to refer to my docs by their first name, as they refer to me by mine, is an interesting one...

I suppose it was around the time I started working, and paying tax... And when I started paying professional fees to them... I felt that as a paying customer/client/patient, I had absolutely no need to be deferential to them... I'm just of the opinion that however hard they have worked/studied to get where they are (and good luck to them), they are getting paid either directly or indirectly by me to provide a service, they're not doing me any favours... I have the same approach to anybody providing me with a service that I'm paying for... Be that dental, financial, legal, etc... Perhaps if they were unpaid volunteers, and doing me a favour, I might think differently...

Darth...

Thanks for this wonderful reply, Darth! I feel exactly the same. It's their job, they're paid for it (very well in most instances) by me and various corporations or governments that I also pay, so this sense of entitlement to further adulation (by a minority of doctors, I grant you) doesn't sit well with me. I am polite to the ones that deserve it and very, shall we say, 'honest' with the ones that don't. The doctors that put in my tunneled line at Northwestern know what I am talking about.

I don't remember what I called the doctors in hospital here, nor what they called me, I think I just avoided the whole issue by not using direct address. I'm sure they introduced themselves several times, but I think I was trying to hide how wrecked my memory was, so I would just say 'hiya' or similar and let them get on with whatever they had to do. It's a typical social survival strategy for people who are broadly referred to as 'deviants' in sociology (not to be taken as an insult). The only one I do remember specifically, an absolutely lovely doctor, referred to himself as 'Dr. [first name] [surname]' so that was little help. My name was on a sign over my bed "Mrs [first name] [surname]" so they probably referred to me as 'Mrs.' and they didn't have to worry about forgetting my name, which we all know is cheating....

[cariad]

Cariad, I was not offering advice as I am sure you and Gwyn will make the right choice for yourselves.  However, I do understand that when I posted "You can trust your doctor...", it sounded like I was speaking to you and only to you.  I should have written, "One can trust one's doctor..." or something to that effect.

At the risk of belaboring the point, there is no way to read this paragraph and come to any other conclusion than it was written to me and only me, especially bits I've put in bold.

Cariad, I know trust is huge with you as it is with me, too, and as it is with all of us.  You can trust your doctor without having to be on a first name basis with him.  I've been seeing my neph for over 10 years now, and he has been nothing but stellar.  I have trusted him with my life, and he came through for me.  We've had conversations ranging from how Coco Chanel was a Nazi lover to the beauties of Edinburgh architecture.  He's met my son.  But I would NEVER call him by his first name.  It's disrespectful.  If he wanted to become my friend, I'd change doctors.  While I am glad that you are so comfortable with Joe, what you've described raises all sorts of red flags in my mind.  And THAT's my opinion for what it's worth to you.

I don't take this in a bad way, opinions and advice are fine, but it might save you and others time to know that I was looking for people to discuss their own experiences, not mine. I think it's obvious that I won't change my behaviour or decisions based on an internet conversation. I have no problem with my doctor wanting to have more of a friendly relationship with us. I find it flattering.

It is a COMPLETELY different relationship being in a clinical trial, nothing like the assembly line that much of modern medicine has become. If you read about the first individuals to have a Scribner shunt, they mention getting calls from Scribner to attend parties with him. I don't see my relationship with Joe ever reaching that point - we live in separate countries after all - but he is trying to contribute to this field by getting patients away from these brutal drugs. In order to sell this idea to the people who can fund it, he needs to show them what positive effect this can have, he needs patients willing to be a bit more than a statistic and actually be amenable to participating on some sort of social level publicly. At least that's how I see it. I inhabit a unique position in the trial as I am the only one who was retransplanted. This was both downplayed and underscored depending on the situation. Joe actually tried to convince me to do a different trial with a different PI because it would have been far less dangerous for me, and less of the unknown for them. I see now why he did that, but for personal reasons it would never have got off the ground, and although I've been through much trauma due to the trial, I wouldn't change my decision.

Additionally, we were gossiping like old friends at our first meeting because we have encountered all the same people, just under separate circumstances. He was very close friends with my original surgeon (whom he only referred to by nickname the entire time I was there, so good job I knew that nickname) and he was able to tell me what happened to my prep school roommate's father, who also happened to be a famous transplant surgeon. Joe has always seemed to appreciate just how much I know and have seen of this business over the years. I think he finds my perspective interesting because he has a bit of the anthropologist to him - it's likely not every day that he meets a patient who can describe what it was like to be on dialysis in 1976 with a Scribner shunt, or what it was like to be a patient of his friends back in the day.

Many of my doctors have met my kids, Joe is no exception. It says nothing about our relationship and everything about the difficulty in finding reliable childcare.

[lunadatura]

I like the appelation of Doc. Its not as formal as Dr. name. it still gives respect. If I get to know the Doc I would like call him Doc Peter or Doc Paul. I call my psychologist Doc. I call my neph Dr. Kyaw or just Doc since his Korean name both first and last is awkward on my western tongue. My transplant surgeon and neph are new to me so I lean on Doc.

[Charlie B53]

I doubt that very many people have that rare relationship as you do with Dr Joe.  It's good, and I'm sure that because of it he is very careful to see that your care is as well as possible.

You are Blessed.

I still think that when other people are in the room, like clerks, jerks, and possibly the Nurse, that you call him Dr Joe so these other people don't think that they too can just call him Joe.

[cariad]

I doubt that very many people have that rare relationship as you do with Dr Joe.  It's good, and I'm sure that because of it he is very careful to see that your care is as well as possible.

You are Blessed.

I still think that when other people are in the room, like clerks, jerks, and possibly the Nurse, that you call him Dr Joe so these other people don't think that they too can just call him Joe.

Thanks, Charlie. He's pretty legendary at that hospital for his modesty and sweet, accommodating nature, so I am sure there are a few people who take advantage of that in one way or another. After the trial the research nurses and I would sit around and chat with him, and they would always call him Joe, but it seemed like they had a long history of mutual respect and congeniality between all of them. It could get quite giggly in there. So there seems nothing to worry about with them at least. The only other person I can think of who was in the room with us was the social worker, who I found to be an utter cretin. She didn't excuse herself when Joe was first examining me which I found jaw-droppingly rude. When Joe said goodbye to her he called her by the wrong first name (!!!!) and while I'm sure it was inadvertent on his part (or was it?) she seemed quite stricken. I left that scene with a smile on my face and a song in my heart! Thankfully I will never see her again.

(Now that I've started calling him Joe, I just cannot stop! It's so much easier than writing out Dr. xxxxx each and every time! )

[cariad]

I like the appelation of Doc. Its not as formal as Dr. name. it still gives respect. If I get to know the Doc I would like call him Doc Peter or Doc Paul. I call my psychologist Doc. I call my neph Dr. Kyaw or just Doc since his Korean name both first and last is awkward on my western tongue. My transplant surgeon and neph are new to me so I lean on Doc.

I can see why people would like it so much, and as I said, I do not know why it kind of makes me cringe. It's just one of those words that I have a bad reaction to, I guess, like 'meal' (a very common one for people to dislike, ask around, you'll find someone who doesn't care for that word fairly quickly I suspect. )

Oh, a Korean doctor! The conventions for address are literally backwards in most of Asia, so that would be a tricky one to negotiate. Hopefully he took the initiative and introduced himself clearly.

Thanks for adding your voice to the conversation!   

[MooseMom]

So my husband and I have gone where we've never gone before. We've started addressing him as 'Joe' in emails, and it feels like a change that was long overdue. Whether I'll be able to call him that in conversation remains to be seen! 

Do you anticipate needing to speak to him by phone?  If so, how do you think you will address him, now that you've had more time to mull over this question?  I can see why you'd be flattered by his ease in signing his emails "Joe".  That's really nice; you've been through so much together!  No doubt he values your thoughts and opinions and is grateful for all that he has learned from you.  Not trying to give an opinion here; just admiring what both of you have achieved together. 

[Simon Dog]

My optometrist (Dr/OD) and I use the same gun club.  When I meet him in his office, or call him about a medical issue, I address him as Doctor.  When I meet him on the range, I call him Steve.  I always call my neph Dr. as I do not know or deal with him in a non-medical setting.