I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Dialysis Discussion => Dialysis: General Discussion => Topic started by: LightLizard on January 20, 2008, 01:22:50 PM
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For me, this is one of the Great dillemas of being on dialysis.
I find it difficult to walk even a few blocks, most days.
The main problem is a lack of energy or any consistency to any energy I might feel.
In our culture, it seems to be the focus of so many, a job of some kind, having a 'purpose' that makes you feel like getting out of bed in the morning.
I struggle with this daily, and even though I don't think of myself as being 'depressed', I still contemplate stopping dialysis, sometimes, and just letting nature have her way with me.
How can you find a 'purpose' when you barely have the energy to live?
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:grouphug;
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:grouphug;
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you sweetie-pies, you!
:thx;
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All life is about giving an inanimate world human meaning by thinkng about it, reacting to it, understanding and interpreting it, and even when all the more sophisticated purposes have become inaccessible because of total exhaustion and absorbtion into the deadening dialysis routine, there remains the purpose of perceiving and conferring significance on things by your human response. Even in a dungeon you can continue to develop intellectually, introspectively, and psychologically.
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I have those days too, we ALL do, so don't think you're alone. Today I went and bought a load of groceries for my parents, made a lil dinner. I was tired afterwards but just felt good contributing and helping my parents since they help me so much!
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a purpose- maybe you can find a new one.... i want to read every book before I die- I do not want to miss any....maybe you could listen to every peice of music ever written.....surely they get written faster then you get to hear them.... you may not have much energy....but you have spoken to every person you are meant to meet? And I miss your posts around here- always nice to be disagreed with. You may have lived a rich life-and lack the energy to do more then lay on the couch 12 hours a day- but that one hour you get up....what a sweet one.
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You got to learn to roll with the punches, make that your purpose.
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thanks glitter, you made me laugh. and you're right, joe paul, rolling with the punches is something i used to teach (tai chi) so i need to remember how to do that and stop punching myself so much.
sometimes, the aspect of not having a choice in the matter does make me feel that i'm in a dungeon, like you mentioned stauffenburg.
you are very lucky to still have your parents with you karen, good for you!
it seems to me that just about all my friends and family think of me as already being dead.
i hate sounding so negative, but i can't shake this sense of emptiness.
my wife (and best friend) were talking about bobby fischer, and how he opted to refuse dialysis and die, and my wife said, 'i don't think i'd want to be on dialysis, either...'
it made me think, 'well, what the hell am i doing it for? and what must she think of me?'
i know there's no distinct answer to this problem of purpose, really, so i guess my purpose right now is to question the need for purpose.
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You got to learn to roll with the punches, make that your purpose.
I re-read this and I did not mean it to sound so harsh, I am sorry. I too have thought the same way you are, and I think there has to be a purpose I am still here. I try to live everyday thinking maybe this is the day I will learn what it is...it kind of gives me the will to carry on. Again LL, I did not mean for that to sound so harsh, forgive me.
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no problem, joe paul, i didn't read it as harsh at all. nowhere near as harsh as i'm being on myself.
thank you!
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Anyone that faces a life altering event whether it is illness, tragedy ect... is bound to think about it. When I was given my options I really wanted the do nothing option. I had been through some weird medical stuff and questioned why I survived. I still have some odd thoughts now and then. If you don't face the bad thoughts, then how can you pick yourself up and get motivated to live with your challenges. I like it here because no one judges and everyone encourages each other. I feel better when I get the negative thoughts off my chest and you guys are the ones that listen. Once I voice my feelings I can move on. :grouphug;
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I tried to sign onto this forum but it wouldn't let me. I emailed but didn't get a response....so, here I am, LL's wife, under his name.
What do I think of you LL?
I think you're braver than I could ever be. Really, I don't know how you do it, how you deal with everything you have to deal with. I don't know if I could be so strong. What I think is how unselfish you are because you know your kids and myself aren't quite ready to let you go. I think you must love us and life more than anyone can ever guess. There's a lot more thinking I could write but you know me, I'll end up writing a book.
And anyways, if you weren't around, I'd probably return to eating oatmeal for supper.
Your wife.
I've been coming here for awhile now and reading simply because I can't seem to sign in. I admire the courage of all of you. For those of us who are healthy, you teach compassion, how to let go of the need to control, and take us to where we feel deep gratitude for life itself. You also teach someone how to love without expectations, and acceptance of what is.
So, the way I see it, you all have a purpose.
With love and gratitude to all of you,
LL's wife.
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Nothing is written in stone. I question my purpose every day - that's what makes us evolve and adapt. LL you can't compare yourself to anyone. All of us are unique individuals who bring something different to life's party.
Defining your purpose or what motivates you to get out of bed in the morning, well philosophers have written volumes on the subject. Your family acting as if you are already gone... Well, you need to engage them and remind them that you are alive. This disease does not define you. It is overwhelming at times - but don't let it eclipse the spark that is you.
We all manifest depression in different ways - I know that I was functionally depressed last year - and it is only within the past few months that I realized how depressed I was. My point, you don't see it yourself when you are depressed.
I hope that by posting about it that you've started a dialog that can help you explore your possibilities. Because you do have possibilities out there - and your wife is your best friend and partner in all of this. Try to look at life as an adventure and you are a survivor on this adventure - not a casualty!
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Nothing is written in stone. I question my purpose every day - that's what makes us evolve and adapt. LL you can't compare yourself to anyone. All of us are unique individuals who bring something different to life's party.
Defining your purpose or what motivates you to get out of bed in the morning, well philosophers have written volumes on the subject. Your family acting as if you are already gone... Well, you need to engage them and remind them that you are alive. This disease does not define you. It is overwhelming at times - but don't let it eclipse the spark that is you.
We all manifest depression in different ways - I know that I was functionally depressed last year - and it is only within the past few months that I realized how depressed I was. My point, you don't see it yourself when you are depressed.
I hope that by posting about it that you've started a dialog that can help you explore your possibilities. Because you do have possibilities out there - and your wife is your best friend and partner in all of this. Try to look at life as an adventure and you are a survivor on this adventure - not a casualty!
wow Meinuk, between you and my wife, I wonder what I was thinking, now.
blessings!
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Light Lizard, I think your wife sums up what a lot of family members do feel, but just don't know how to say it.
You never know who may be inspired by your strenght and determination right now and you don't even know it.
:grouphug;
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thanks romona.
sometimes, its hard to see that old forest for all
the trees...
thanks for the reminder!
love
LL
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Light Lizard, your post was very heartfelt and I think you summed up how each of us feels at one time or another. Everything that I thought was my purpose is now gone----job, kids are grown, can't do what I want when I want. But I have to believe I have purpose. And you my dear friend, have one special purpose--that loving person who posted telling you how important you are to her and your kids. She had me in tears, so I know it touched you greatly. How wonderful that she posted and reminded you there is a purpose everyday.
Right now, maybe your purpose is to come here and post more of you music. Or just pour out your thoughts everyday. We are hear to listen, to support, and we care. :cuddle; Also, we look forward to your insiteful posts. It seems like we each have an important role here; Sluff the big brother, Goofynina the heart of the site, Zach the one with all the statistics, Kitkatz has her big stick, and you make us think and reflect. (not sure of my role!!) So, keep posting and sharing. Hug your wife; she seems like a lovely person. Hope tomorrow is brighter :grouphug;
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It sounds like your purpose is love.
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bless you both, paris and kitkatz, and everyone!
these bodies may be flawed, but there's no lack of spirit here,
and that is the main ingrediant for love to bloom brightly!
blissings to all! (that's the happiest of blessings ;) )
LL
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After reading your post and then your wife's, I must say I understand where you're coming from.
But at the same time, I think you're a very lucky man.
I would give anything to have a faithful woman by my side and children to share my wisdom with.
Dialysis' main goal is to try and steal your life away from you. It loves that. It giggles with glee when it accomplishes that.
So I will give you not one, but two purposes for your life as it stands.
1. Relish in the love you share with your life and the chance Dialysis has given you to see your kids become happy, successful adults.
2. Defeat Dialysis. Fight back. Push a little harder. Strength comes from adversity.
These are just my personal thoughts and may have to bearing on your life whatsoever.
I hope for the best for you.
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Lightlizard I hope you are convinced now. The love and admiration shown by your wife and family is is non other than inspirational. :wine;
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You can look at things in one of two ways ..Is my glass half empty or is my glass half full.
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thanks stacy, ken and kickstart.
i guess i'd have to say that now, my glass is over-full, thanks to the loving supprt from you folk, and yes, of course, the blessings of love from my family.
it's my head that seems empty, from time to time... ;)
the wife got herself registered, finally, so now i gotta be a good boy.
that's gonna be hard! :waving;
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I just saw this thread and want to offer more :cuddle;. I'm glad to see you're in better spirits.
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thanks deane. this place is the best prescription for the dialysis blas there is!
i've found that the journey on this path-without-a-kidney requires a lot of heart.
one of the challenges. for me, is that i seem to have received a spiritual lobotomy...
i have become more cynical and perhaps less compassionate than i once was.
still workin on that...
love
LL
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LL, thanks for having the courage to bring up this topic. I often feel the way you do, but I don't
have your courage to write and talk about the depression. Thanks also to all of you for your
responses. They make me feel better about this situation we're all in.
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:grouphug;
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:grouphug; I wish i could offer some words, but I don't think I've ever felt this way. However, I offer my open arms and an open ear. :cuddle;
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LL, thanks for having the courage to bring up this topic. I often feel the way you do, but I don't
have your courage to write and talk about the depression. Thanks also to all of you for your
responses. They make me feel better about this situation we're all in.
We just have to be here for each other. My emotions are like a rollercoaster. At least you guys know what it is like. When I read the posts at least I know I am not alone and others have doubts and bad days too! :grouphug;
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ramona, steve, kelly and angie, thanks for sounding in.
knowing that we are not alone on this bumpy road is such
an important truth, and so easy to forget in the midst
of aches and pains in the dark of the night.
we who walk this path may stagger and run out of steam,
from time to time.
other times wondering if the journey is worth the effort....
but this, i know...
i don't know how i know this, but i know i wouldn't know it
without all of you and your words of support and love;
it IS worth the effort.
namaste
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:grouphug; :grouphug;
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LL please don't let bitternes overtake you. Chronic sickness will always change you. How it changes you is your choice. Bitterness is like drinking poison and hoping someone else will die. It's a long hard fight, if you can't run, walk
If you can't walk, stand, but never,never quit. It is what it is, we must accept it. We
don't like it, but we must deal with it.
God Bless You,
Mimi
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An enormous THANK YOU to Light's wife for her post. It made my day./bobt
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back at ya, mimi and bob.
don't worry mimi. 'cynical' is not necessarily bitter, or a bad thing either.
did you know that the word originally described a branch of
greek philosophy?
the belief of the cynic was that the most valuable virtues one could aquire in life
were only available through self disipline.
i'm for bringing back that original definition.
:rant;
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Sometimes cynical and sarcastic are all I have left in me. They get me through the day. :lol;
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Hi LL,
I have so struggled with what you brought up in this thread. I want to share my experience with it not only for you because you have gotten lots of good feedback but for others who may have some similar feelings. My one year anniversary of being diagnosed with kidney failure comes tomorrow. It has been a year of some major changes in my life. If I would have known on that day I was diagnosed what it would mean I would not believe that I have made it through at all.
It was about June when I finally realized that I was not going to be able to go back to work. Yes, I am a slow learner. On top of that my daughter, that I had adopted five years before was having major mental health issues and ended up in Juvenile detention saying that she would never come back home to live with me. I live away from most of my family. I do have an aunt and uncle that live a few miles away but I have only really even known them for the last few years. I slipped lower and lower until I was constantly thinking about suicide and I had a very workable plan, that I could carry out in a short time span. I would not be brave enough to stop dialysis that would take too much time being too sick. The major thing that first started helping is I decided that I had to hang on just with the odd chance that maybe my daughter may want to come home some day. I talked to my doctor and changed my antidepressant to Effexor. This helped a lot. I put any energy I had into supporting and listening to my daughter whenever I could. I started feeling a little better and then in September after my third surgery on my Kidney to get rid of some cancer I decided to start walking more. It was slow and not easy and took a lot of patience but my strength grew. My daughter also started responding to my love. She went from Juvenile detention to a treatment center, and finaly came home in October. She is a changed girl. She is very helpful and suppotive of me now. She still needs lots of support and help to stick to her treatment plans but it is a two way street now. I got up to walking one mile twice most days. I felt real good until just before Christmas when I had to have more surgery on my kidney. Some problems came up and I ended up in the hospital the day after Christmas with a bad kidney infection, only to return less than a week later even sicker, with a kidney infection due to complications with treating the cancer in my kidney. I have now been out of the hospital for 11 days and am starting to walk again. It is discouraging to have lost all my strength but I am now determined to build up to be able to walk five miles three days a week, on nondialysis days.
Anyway what I am saying is, do talk to a good doctor about antidepressants and set some goals. These goals become your purpose. I have also started up some old hobbies and find a lot of joy in them. I have spent time communicating with my family and letting them know that I am still very much alive and continue to work to make my life worthwhile. You can do it. Anyone of us can. just set some small gaols and reach for them. Get help with antidepressants if the doctor feel like that may help. Then keep writing and communicating with other people that may be able to understand like those here on this list.
Loretta
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yes kellyt, its the last defense, in a way, but it does work if we don't overuse it....
loretta, thank you so much for telling us your story! you are an inspiration to me.
i used to love walking, before dialysis, in fact, it was my main mode of transportation for most of my life. i never did learn to drive a car and walking was part of the health regimen that i followed for many years, along with my tai chi and qigong practice.
after being bed-ridden for 7 months, i lost around 75 percent of my muscle mass, and as you know, it takes a long, long time to get that muscle back!
well, along with the fatigue of kidney failure and the psychological aspect, I have been pretty slack in my walking for the past few years. it just seems impossible to rebuild that old strength. i'm pretty much back to my pre-dialysis weight now, but the muscles are not exactly getting much work. you have given me a new goal with your touching words. i'll never get my old strength back, i know, but now, i want to do what i can to get as much of it back as possible.
i can't bring myself to ask my doc for anti-depressants. i don't think i've gotten to the point that i really need them. but as for walking, i can do that. thank you! and i am so happy to hear that your daughter is around and supportive. i'd be lost without my wife, and my daughters are one, (three, actually) of the reasons i haven't given up, and won't.
bless you and please do get stronger and stay happy.
love
LL
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This seems to be a topic of some frequency amongst dialysis patients.
I know that I struggle with it constantly. Before my diagnosis of End Stage Renal Disease, I was a carefree, wild, fun loving bohemian-wanna-be youngster who lived to stay out late and play guitar in a myriad of bands. I worked on many different creative projects, and didn't worry about medical conditions.
Then I was attached to a dialysis machine - and I turned 25. Life was different.
I started to think about purpose - what was I to do? I had always counted on the future to take care of itself. As I meandered through life, without thinking about a "career", I always figured I'd just settle down, get the job and get on with it. I didn't count on kidney failure!
So - purpose - as I sat in my chair for hours at a clip every other day, the possiblity of ever working seemed to wane. I mean, I wasn't supposed to feel so useless so young.
Now, it's five years later - I've been through one half-assed transplant and eventual failure (a whole other story) and a return to dialysis... and I still wonder about purpose.
I don't have any definite answers, but I can see by the life around me that there's something. I have amazing friends and family that have rallied to me over the years. And though some don't understand the nature of ESRD ("You're gonna be better, right?") they try. And I see that they have something invested in me. I know in today's society, we want to feel productive... but in the cosmic nature of things, your friends and family and the love you can invest in the are the greatest things you can experience in life. Honestly - sounds like lovey-dovey, hippy-trippy out look, but nothing makes me feel better. And, I do the little things when I can to make myself feel productive - I still play my guitar and record music, and I write whenever I get a chance. I've also co-authored a computer game that's been downloaded hundreds of thousands of times and featured on TV!
It seems to me you've got a lot going for you - so continue to keep that head up, and know there's plenty of us out there. Good, worthwhile people who just happen to be dialysis patients too. Someday, kidney disease will be better known in public (I don't know why I get so defensive about it, but it's just not as "chic" as say.... cancer or heart disease, is it?) and people will be more sympathetic to the cause.
Lots of great responses in this thread.
~Steve
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thank you steve. you and i have been on similar roads, it seems. it would be nice to get together and jam, one day.
play on, bro!
love
LL
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I just now found this topic. I've been struggling with working full time while being sick. It's hard! Especially when the house is falling down
because you have no energy to work on it. I just keep putting one foot forward. I admire KitKatz. I don't know how she does it some days.
LL, you are our poet, I've missed not seeing your posts lately. I'm glad you're back on, and I'm gladder your wife is on now, too.
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i don't know how YOU do it myssanne! i barely have the energy, most days, to walk 2 blocks.
my wife is the real poet, i'm just a budding cynic (sorry mimi, heehee)-
i used to be schizophrenic...
but, we're fine, now.
:waving;
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LOL!!! LL, I am glad you all are better now!!! Gotta watch out for your better half!! :rofl;
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An enormous THANK YOU to Light's wife for her post. It made my day./bobt
You're welcome.
And thank you everyone who responded to this post with your warm words of inspiration and care. LL's spirits are up, I feel lighter, and even though he didn't get out for a walk today, he did ride the exercise bike. :2thumbsup;
AND....he did the dishes! Unfortuantely, I came home and messed it all up again by cooking dinner. Should I fill up the sink LL? ;)
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sure! hop in.
i'll get the steel wool.
:rofl;
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:rofl;
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The picture that floated through my mind. I need the steel wool now! :rofl; :rofl;
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An enormous THANK YOU to Light's wife for her post. It made my day./bobt
You're welcome.
And thank you everyone who responded to this post with your warm words of inspiration and care.� LL's spirits are up, I feel lighter, and even though he didn't get out for a walk today, he did ride the exercise bike.� �:2thumbsup;
AND....he did the dishes!� Unfortuantely, I came home and messed it all up again by cooking dinner.� Should I fill up the sink LL?� � ;)
You are an awesome wife. The more dishes the better he'll feel. :rofl;
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yeah, but i don't need to feel TOO good, y'know. my sensitive musician-fingers get wrinkled and slippery and i might drop a dish.
:o
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Oh yeah, I forgot. I guess you'll have to do laundry, run the vacumn and mop the floors. That stuff will toughen up those musician fingers back up after you are done with the dishes. See I'm looking out for you. Your wife doesn't have to thank me. It is my pleasure to give you advice. :bandance;
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i don't know how YOU do it myssanne! i barely have the energy, most days, to walk 2 blocks.
my wife is the real poet, i'm just a budding cynic (sorry mimi, heehee)-
i used to be schizophrenic...
but, we're fine, now.
:waving;
Used to be????? Aha we know now!! Aw shoot, shut up Mimi.
Love Ya LL,
Mimi
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A serious, life-changing illness takes it's toll on you.
Chronic illness brings us face to face with the big questions. You suddenly have an opportunity within the challenge of illness to look again at what is really important to you.
Another one of those dreaded "growth opportunities." :-\
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Oh yeah, I forgot. I guess you'll have to do laundry, run the vacumn and mop the floors. That stuff will toughen up those musician fingers back up after you are done with the dishes. See I'm looking out for you. Your wife doesn't have to thank me. It is my pleasure to give you advice. :bandance;
uhhh, thanks ramona, but i'll have
to leave those for the expert.
thanks for looking out for me so well! ;)
i guess it's not so much that i don't have
a 'purpose' anymore.
it's more that the purpose i was serving
is now, pretty much impossible for me to pursue.
maybe my new, shiny purpose is
to bring awareness of the prison that
religion is and help others
obtain a sense of freedom and virtue
through the noble path of
the Cynic.
yeah, that's the ticket.
ALLLL ABOARRRRD!
:yahoo;
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Well I am questioning religion myself, I still believe in a higher power.
It is organization that I am not sure of.
"She" did a wonderful job of creating the Earth.
Who other than a woman could get that all done. :rofl;
And LightLizard, I was not granted a license to hear your music. So I couldn't hear it. :'(
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that's weird, ramona. i think you just need to click on 'download liscence' to get one..
it should appear on your screen when you're on that page.
yes, i've dropped a lot of my old beliefs by the wayside since my kidneys failed, it seems.
i used to be a highly 'spiritual' person, not religious, but i too believed in some kind of 'higher power' that formed and shaped us.
after two NDE's, one 30 some-odd years ago, and another one just recently when i was hospitalised, i've come to realise just how powerful the human mind can be when it comes to convincing ourselves of something we need to believe in order to avoid the fear of death.
now, i do believe there is a 'force' of some kind that causes life to form, but i don't attribute any kind of consciousness to it. it's more like magnetism, or electricity, i think.
people have a hard time thinking this way, i know, especially after generations of religious dogma has been fed to them. it's hard to let go of that father-figure in the sky, even, perhaps especially, for adults. i believe that the purpose of life is simply to live and our purpose is dependant on what we choose to do with our lives.
i trust that all will be as it should be and i know i belong in this universe, otherwise, i wouldn't be here.
what more should i need?
if you want a useful perspective outside of religion, read joseph campbell's work. you won't be sorry!
love
LL
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ok ramona, i made some changes to the files and you should be able to download them now...
cheers!
:beer1;
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Well, I'm sorry to tell you LL, I don't believe in religion either. I believe in Jesus Christ. There are numerous
riddles in life that remain a mystery....but when God leaves us with a mystery that isn't solved shortly we panic
and struggle to believe he is a good God.
The Bible I read simply doesn't present that as the way life is. Yet the world seems to expect that. When will
we ever learn that cynics have no capacity to understand the profound and unfathomable ways of God.
Love U LL,
Mimi
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thanks mimi. i understand where you're coming from and i'm sorry to tell you that jesus was a story that was told by a few other cultures, long before the bible was written, and long before the story of jesus was formed. the egyptians had a similar tale of a hero that was born of divine origin, could heal and perform miracles, and was killed for challenging the authoritarian leaders of that time. its an age-old mythological tale that lays out the path of the spiritual traveller who must challenge the status quo and sacrifice himself (the body and ego) to acheive awakening, and it is the story of all of us, really. that's what mythology is. a poetic fable designed to awaken certain truths within us.
jesus did not literally walk the earth, as the majority of christians believe today. he is not returning to save and judge us. not literally.. but i don't expect you to be open to this thinking at all. you have closed your mind to the possibilities of that story being anything other than actual historical fact.
that is the flaw of modern perception. we are unable to understand the ancient myths as they were intended to be understood. the coming of the age of 'reason'- the industrial era, and the growth of scientific thought has shifted human perception into the left part of our brains, the part of logic and literal thinking, where we are unable to grasp the finer points that the ancients were attempting to share so magically through the myths and legends.
add that to the desire to manipulate and control the masses with the image of a vengeful diety, and you have the miserable world we are now in.
i love you too.
LL
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God has a crazy sense of humor!
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an·thro·po·mor·phism [ ànthrəpə máwr fìzzəm ]
noun
Definition:
attribution of human characteristics to nonhumans: the attribution of a human form, human characteristics, or human behavior to nonhuman things, e.g. deities in mythology and animals in children's stories
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jesus did not literally walk the earth, as the majority of christians believe today. he is not returning to save and judge us. not literally.
LL that is just NOT true. Deep within the hearts of everyone, there is this little hidden clause that says 'There may be a God after all.' One second after they die men and women who have rejected and resisted the Lord will step
into eternity. One second .... and they will be totally at a loss to determine their future. God's sovereignty
steps over their lives and sets forth His decree, "God is all in all." LL I wish you would stop reading Greek Mythology
and try reading the Word of God. He will help you realize the truth and set your mind free. There are also many
good Christian books. One I especially like is C. S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity."
Love U my friend,
Mimi
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well, i beg to differ, mimi. i think if you listen closely to that little voice you'll hear that it's really saying 'gee, i sure hope there's a god and an afterlife cuz i'm scared to hell of dying' and the rest is all made up...
these beliefs were formed thousands of years ago, when people had no idea of what they were about, how they got here, where they were going, but through wishful thinking and the need to avoid fear, the fables grew into the illusions that people base their lives on now.
so much potenntial wasted becasuse people make themselves believe that they will 'get their reward in heaven' so why try to make the most of your life? why strive for something better?
anyway, i can see, as usual, that you are trapped in your prison of belief and really
have no way out, so let's not bother talking about this anymore, there is no need
to argue, and i have no burning need to be proven 'right'- you will never convince me of what you believe. i've been there and at 58 years old, i have no need for your god, your jesus, or any other false hope.
thanks anyway.
love
LL
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Read Matthew 7:6 I think it applies here. :twocents;
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i have a right to believe what feels right for me. this bible-thumping makes me nauseous and i am sick and tired of being badgered by holier-than-thou robots.
i am a full-blown athiest and happy with that, leave me alone.
note that the information i have offered is not directed at any one individual, but is for those who are interested and open to ideas beyond the old, worn out fantasies of conventional faiths. i do not appreciate being targeted for conversion.
thanks
LL
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Read Matthew 7:6 I think it applies here. :twocents;
This was meant for Mimi LL
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thanks for clarifing that joe.
and i am sorry for being so defensive, those leg cramps seem to be
cramping more than my legs...
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Just wanted to remind everyone that this thread started in the Dialysis: General Discussion section.
Here's the topic: How can you find a 'purpose' when you barely have the energy to live?
okarol/moderator
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thanks for clarifing that joe.
and i am sorry for being so defensive, those leg cramps seem to be
cramping more than my legs...
Never a problem LL :thumbup;
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Just wanted to remind everyone that this thread started in the Dialysis: General Discussion section.
Here's the topic: How can you find a 'purpose' when you barely have the energy to live?
okarol/moderator
perhaps, if at all possible (and it isn't for me, yet) one can attempt to live as gracefully as possible for the benefit of those around us, to inspire and let them see how regardless of the tribulations of renal failure, life can still have meaning...
love
LL
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Everyone has a right to believe what they want to believe. There are probably very few people that haven't thought about "purpose" when faced with difficult obstacles that life throws at us. Some people use faith to pull them through, others may lose faith. I agree that trying to live gracefully as possible should be a goal. There aren't many days that I don't think why am I still here. Why was I spared only to face one more health scare after another. Just when I think things are settling down something else pops up!
LL,
I think you are displaying grace with handling this disease. If you are like most of us, you only show your true feelings to people that can relate. The people that post here can understand your feelings. I am guessing that among family and friends, they see you as someone of strength and determination. I would never dream of voicing my true feelings to those close to me. But here I feel comfortable doing just that.
Now let's talk another no-no, politics! :lol; :rofl;
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Just wanted to remind everyone that this thread started in the Dialysis: General Discussion section.
Here's the topic: How can you find a 'purpose' when you barely have the energy to live?
okarol/moderator
perhaps, if at all possible (and it isn't for me, yet) one can attempt to live as gracefully as possible for the benefit of those around us, to inspire and let them see how regardless of the tribulations of renal failure, life can still have meaning...
love
LL
Oh boy... I totally agree with that LL.
A big Yea for living gracefully.
Love, Mimi
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'POLITIC"?? :o please, not that!!
my take on politics;
'poli - (from the ancient greek) meaning; 'many'
and 'tics' - blood sucking insects
i'm not really that much into the greek history thing, but i do believe that
there is much that the greeks offered that could be useful in today's world, if we
paid attention.
for instance; did you know that the greeks were the first to
incorporate the principles of democracy into their society? (the spartans, really!)
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Now let's talk another no-no, politics! :lol; :rofl;
Electile Dysfunction: the inability to become aroused over any of the choices for president put forth by either party in the 2008 election year.
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Now let's talk another no-no, politics! :lol; :rofl;
Electile Dysfunction: the inability to become aroused over any of the choices for president put forth by either party in the 2008 election year.
*whew* that's a relief. i thought it was just me!
:clap;
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:rofl; :rofl; :rofl;
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Back to Purpose...
My first few years of ESRD I struggled to find purpose and meaning in my life. I was forced to gradually give up everything I had previously come to belief was my foundation for purpose and left with nothing. I became very bitter and rejected God for a while there. Having this malady strike me has left my husband a complete agnostic. If it could strike me, how could God exist?, is his way of thinking.When I try to tell him I now feel God gave me a reprieve from this malady, he simply tells me Science gave me a reprieve, God had nothing to do with it.
For now, my purpose in life has become as simple as to be here to raise my teenage kids and be my husband's companion. All three have told me quite clearly they could not imagine living without me around. That will do for now. I keep thinking any other purpose in my life will gradually illicit itself as needed and when I am capable.
As for agnostics and believer's in God getting along, It absolutely can be done. There is room for all beliefs. My husband and I have come to terms on this subject. So can we all, by not judging others and at the same time, not pushing belief systems on others.
So let's have a toast to all here who bravely choose to live with kidney disease everyday.
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the enormous advantage of finding meaning and purpose in your life the way an atheist does, by just relying on logical analysis applied to the undeniably real, everday facts of your existence, is that the reasoning is so straightforward that it can be relied on. In contrast, any religious belief about the purpose in life relies on faith, not logic, and has reference to invisible things whose very existence has to be open to question. This means that the religious answer is always uncertain and that it cannot hold up under the stresses of life the same way the atheist's answer does. People often talk of losing their faith under the pressure of tragedies, but who ever says he lost his confidence in logical reasoning because of personal loss?
To say that you can still find purpose in the living death of dialysis by virtue of the fact that you can continue to perceive your life, to give human meaning to things by your interpretation of them, and to grow and develop introspectively even by the tragedies you experience, is something that anyone can see is true. But to say that there is purpose in living like one of the Undead on dialysis because a 2000/3400-year-old set of books full of miracles, fables, and allegories, and the subject of radically conflicting interpretations, containing much that even believers reject as false (eg. Noah and the Flood; the world being onlly 6000 years old; the story of Adam and Eve; the denial of evolution; Moses making the Sun stop moving (it doesn't ever move relative to the Earth in the first place! etc.), says that everything is just fine despite the fact that it seems to be terrible is not a solid and secure answer in the same way the atheist's reasoning is.
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I myself over the last few years have wavered between agnosticism and atheism. I cannot be completely atheistic because I find that the logic behind atheism doesn't seem to create logical solutions to the world's problems.
The natural world has evolved in a way that that has been to its own benefit physically. But socially human beings have hardly evolved to their own benefit in any way. We still seem to be incapable of any form of lasting self government where the concensus towards authority remains constant. Nations are still at war with each other, the poor in the world just seem to get poorer, some nations are terrorized by their own people and many social problems seem to exist everywhere you look.
Why is it that after so many years of evolution the human race is no nearer now to living in peace than it's ever been? Why is it that in spite of the trappings of modern western civilization many people are discontented and (sometimes secretly) long for some spiritual meaning to their lives? Why does secularized government consistently fail to solve it's social problems and discontent in it's citizens?
The fact is that humanity cannot live by logic and science alone. This persistant spiritual longing will not go away, despite our efforts to comfort ourselves with our frantic consumerism we cannot deny it. It would appear to be a natural part of our make up. Because it is part of us and allways will be, doesn't that tell us something? Isn't it also quite often the case where communities who have some sort of belief system in a higher authority they are far more integrated and cohesive. Where all standards are laid down by an unquestionable Divine authority rather than the moral relativism which exists in liberal secular institutions.
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Although I have a persistent longing to be Tsar of the Universe, that longing does not make it any more likely that I am or eventually will be the holder of that office. Wishes have no implications for reality, and if the reality you are left with seems inadequate, then perhaps it is: nothing says the world we live in has to be satisfying!
As for wavering between agnosticism and atheism, you might be interested to read the article by the fomer Yale philosophy professor, Norwood Hanson, entitled "Why I am not an agnostic." His point is that while either atheism or faith is a conceivably logical position, agnosticism is radically irrational. An example illustrates his point. If I tell you something miraculous, such as that I have an elephant that lives in my small closet, then you are not agnostic with respect to that claim on the basis of the fact that you have not yet been able to examine my closet. On the contrary, given the fantastic, fairy-tale quality of my claim, you would require extremely convincing evidence of the accuracy of my statement before even beginning to take it seriously. The same is true for the magical, mythological claims of religion: before it could even be worth seriously adopting uncertainty about their truth, you would have to have excellent evidence to make you begin to entertain these claims as serious. As the Scottish philosopher David Hume said: "Miraculous claims require miraculously convincing evidence so as not to be dismissed out of hand." In the case of religion, the believability of the evidence supporting faith can itself only be sustained by faith, so there is no independent evidence of the required solidity to endorse it.
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thanks stauffenburg. as usual, your perception cuts through the curtain of confusion like a fine blade.
and thanks you too, ken. i agree with what you said, mostly, but i'm not sure that the way to any form of lasting peace is possible through whatever system is developed, be it religious, political, philosophical, logical or scientific.
it seems to be the human pattern that whatever system is in place at any given time will definitely break down as time passes. this can be attributed to the scientific principle of entropy and the (forward) movement of the evolutionary process, and as painful as it may be, sometimes, i think that this is as it must be.
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Stauphenberg I think in one sense you are missing my point and confusing cause and effect. I am posing the question that the main cause of religious belief is a human need and not scriptural revelation such as the Bible, Quoran etc. I agree that apart from the historical figures who appear in scripture and quite probably existed (the existance of Jesus Christ as a person is documented in both Roman and Jewish secular history) the myths and fables and miracles attributed to them are without foundation and therefor are beyond any logical belief.
The stories contained in scripture were just the efforts of human beings trying to make sense of the world just as we are still trying to do now. Even if scripture didn't exist to influence religious thinking many of us would still have that spiritual need. Which brings me back to nature.
I think I believe that as nature demands us humans to eat drink and sleep and carry out actions which are neccessary to our physical survival it also demands a spiritual belief. In spite of all logical and scientific thought it remains in many people and has done so from the beginning of human evolution and I cannot logically believe it is not there for a purpose. It is natural and and nature is the master of expediancy and purpose.
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It is a general rule of reasoning that we prefer to rely on simple and everyday explanations when these suffice, before then going on to posit bizarre and extraordinary reasons when ordinary ones fail. So when I turn on the lights, while I could explain that by magical light fairies bursting out of the wall and into the lamp, I prefer, if it is at all possible, to explain the sudden brightness by reference to tangible, everyday, commonplace things like wires, circuits, switches, and electricity. This is just what it means to think rationally rather than fantastically, the way schizophrenics often do.
The same principle applies to the fact of faith. The human mind, for obvious evolutionary reasons of self-preservation, is terrified of its own destruction, and this is evident in a wide range of experiences, such as the fact that people wake up when they are about to see their own death in their dreams, that the general public is afraid to discuss death openly, and that many cultures try to preserve the bodies of the dead to make it seem as if they have survived after all. So given our fear of death, we seek to reassure ourselves by some magical religious fairy tale either a) that we will never really die, or b) that our death somehow won't matter, because it will happen under the protection of some benign father-figure who guarantees that everything comes out all right in the end. This is no different than soothing ourselves with reassuring thoughts when we are walking down a deserted street late at night, or telling children some story about men bowling in the sky so they'll stop crying over the sound of thunder. This is the ordinary, and thus preferable, explanation of the phenomenon of faith. Part of being grown-up is that we can recognize when we are kidding ourselves with a story to get through some difficulty.
You would be surprised how utterly incapable of comprehending religious faith or having belief the children of atheists often are. They simply have no space in their minds for the longing you describe, and if they have not been taught to think that way from early childhood, by about age 10 they become immune to it and cannot learn it. In fact, the early missionaries in North America were surprised to find that many native tribes they encountered had no word in their language for 'faith' or 'belief,' since they were used to dealing only with things they could see and feel, so where was their longing for belief?
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I’ve had my back against a wall more times than I can count and each time, a part of myself died. Opinions, beliefs, who I thought I was, what I thought I’d become or achieve, dissolved. I got to a point where I didn’t know who I was anymore. When I arrived at this point, all I could do was observe. I observed the trees, my partner convulsing in a hospital bed, the doctors as they continued to say he wouldn’t live, the lack of food in our fridge, the flowers, an eviction notice when I couldn’t come up with the rent, my newborn grandson, waves washing upon the shore, and myself detaching from the person I once thought I was. I observed stillness and discovered it isn't still at all.
When we were told my partner needed dialysis to stay alive, another part of myself died. Another layer that still thought I had control gave up, let go, surrendered. I believed that my positive thoughts could bring healing. His illness had nothing to do with me. It was out of my control and I had no other choice but to allow him to make the decision of whether he would choose to stay alive by a machine or not. I have no control on how long technology will keep him alive either.
Everyone is unique. Some rely more on logic - others, feelings. It doesn't matter.
Yet somehow, both matter. What we think or believe is just that, and everyone has his or her own way of perceiving. Everyone has a different life experience. Even those who have the same experience will perceive differently because no experience is exactly the same. Our experiences create our opinions and beliefs about ourselves and the world around us. Some may silently mock me. Others may resonate with what I say. What another thinks of my way of living or perceiving comes from their own perceptions and life experiences. I am no different.
I don't know how the universe works or what spirit is. Nor do I know what my purpose is, if there’s a purpose, or how my life will unfold. All I have is this moment. Surrendering, trusting, allowing, accepting, and living in gratitude just happen to be the ways I’ve discovered an inner joy and peace that is not dependent on anything external.
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Just a quick note from Administration.
Everyone has the right to believe the way they want to believe and the same respect needs to be shown even if it differs from what you believe.
We haven't had a good debate here in a long time. I think debates are good as long as mutual respect is expressed.
Sluff/ Admin
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Stauffenberg If by logic and reason you have arrived at atheism then what logical proof do you have that disproves the existance of a superior all powerful being which for this augument we'll call God?
At best, logic can only disprove theistic proofs. Disproving theistic proofs does not mean there is no God. It only means that the proofs you present are insufficient.
Logic can be used to disprove theistic evidences that are presented. Negating such proofs is not a refutation of all possible proofs since no one can know or present all possible proofs of God's existence. Therefore, negation of proofs does not disprove God's existence.
If there were a logical argument that proved that God did not exist, it either has not yet been made known. If it were known then it would be in use by atheists. But since no proof of God's non-existence has been successfully defended by atheists, we can conclude that so far, that there are no logical proofs for God's non-existence.
If faith alone, then the position is not held by logic or evidence and is an arbitrary position.
If by a combination of evidence, logic, or faith, then according to the above analysis, neither is sufficient to validate atheism. A combination of insufficient evidence does not validate atheism.
For someone to believe there is no God is to hold that belief by faith since there is no evidence that positively supports atheism and there are no logical proofs that God does not exist. It is, after all, virtually impossible to prove a negative. It is quite possible that both faith in God and atheism are irrational and agnosticism is the only rational position based on logical analysis.
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If you and I were in the forest running away from an angry bear, and I told you wait, stop running and start digging, because I have buried a time machine where we are now standing that will take us away from this animal more certainly than we can outrun it, you would probably say to me, "You idiot!" and keep running. If I shouted out to you as you were disappearing over the hill, with the bear coming ever closer to me, "But you can't prove I don't have a time machine, can you? So why are you running rather than digging?" you would think I had gone insane. The simple fact is that extraordinary claims outside the realm of everyday experience require extraordinary proof to make anyone take them seriously. Insofar as that positive proof is lacking, we dismiss all talk of things like time machines, goblins living in the mountains, fairies in the forests, people able to levitate, vampires, werewolves, or the world being flat. We don't go around saying, "For all I know, Bugs Bunny may be real, since I have never seen it proved that he is not real." The burden of proof is always on the person making the extraordinary claim, not on the people listening to it to prove that it isn't real. If the burden were the other way around, we could spend the rest of human history trying to disprove the existence of all the trillions of bizarre entities that anyone and everyone would keep making up.
By the way, I have a three-headed talking goldfish named 'Josiah' in a bowl next to my computer. Can you prove it doesn't exist? Can you show me a logical proof that it isn't really there? You see how silly it would be to regard our dispute about the talking goldfish as at a draw at this point because you cannot disprove its existence.
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Well at this point maybe we should call it a draw as I can't convince you with my reasoning and neither can you with yours. I repect your view just as I hope you respect mine even though I'm not sure whether or not at one point you implied that I am schizophrenic. I have enjoyed the debate though.
By the way give my regards in triplicate to Josiah.
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I am reminded of the scene in the Woody Allen movie, 'Radio Days.' Woody asks his uncle if he knows what the meaning of life is, and the uncle replies, "The meaning of life? How should I know that? I can't even get the electric can opener to work!" Everyone has to find his own way to deal with the mystery.
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I thought the answer was 42.
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Either way, you guys certainly got me thinking. I always enjoy listening to points of views. People can always not read it if they are offended.
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I like to think that my purpose in this life is to make for a better future. I want to bring joy and happiness to those that know me. I want to inspire friends, family, and strangers alike. I want to do my little part in the mission to raise donor awareness. I want to make someone smile. If I can accomplish these simple things then I think I will have a meaningful purpose and as long as I can accomplish these simple things I will continue making my purpose meaningful. Oh yea, how could I forget....I am supposed to ride motorcycles as much as possible. ;)
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Go, ride on George!!!! I can't seem to understand that people speaks of love and knows how to love but denies the existence of a Supreme Being. Breathe the air, feel the wind, there goes your spirit, unless you are one soul-less being. I don't mean to offend, everyone has their own belief. There are no coincidences in this world, everyone has a purpose, but not everyone was given the privelege to know the purpose.
love,
cris
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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us.
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant,
gorgeous, talented, fabulous?
Actually, who are you not to be?
You are a child of God.
Your playing small does not serve the world.
There is nothing enlightened about shrinking
so that other people won't feel insecure around you.
We are all meant to shine, as children do.
We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us.
It is not just in some of us; it is in everyone.
And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously
give other people permission to do the same.
As we are liberated from our own fear,
our presence automatically liberates others.
a return to love - marianne williamson
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I can't seem to understand that people speaks of love and knows how to love but denies the existence of a Supreme Being
I can't seem to understand the guy in the sky theory....and I love my husband , my children, my mom and dad, and my cats.
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the desire to believe in something is not, as has been stated, as much an inherent need to indulge in religious belief so much as it is a need to find a way to believe in oneself.
even today, with our seemingly miraculos technologies and scientific knowledge, no one can answer the age-old question of 'where do we come from'?
this inability can lead to a feeling of helplessness in one's life.
our ancestors were even more limited in their ability to comprehend the meaning of life than we are. so, it is perfectly natural that they would come up with explanations that satisfied their desire to feel that in this world of seeming chaos and destruction, there is a purpose above and beyond the scope of human awareness. it is also perfectly natural that, because of their lack of biology and other scientific methodolgies, that their explanations would be of a supernatural character.
what is not natural is that generations later, when the facts of evolution and the wisdom of quantum physics have become well established realities, that massive anmounts of the population insist on clinging to obsolete notions regarding the meaning and purpose of our existence.
but what do i know? i'm just a swine in the mud.
my only consolation is the fact that pigs are smarter than sheep.
;)
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what is not natural is that generations later, when the facts of evolution and the wisdom of quantum physics have become well established realities, that massive anmounts of the population insist on clinging to obsolete notions regarding the meaning and purops of our existence.
I agree with this 100%. I don't get how people can disregard facts.
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what is not natural is that generations later, when the facts of evolution and the wisdom of quantum physics have become well established realities, that massive anmounts of the population insist on clinging to obsolete notions regarding the meaning and purpose of our existence.
Who do you think put all of these things in place? It was not accidental. God is not known for doing standard things.
God doesn't build skyscrapers: men build skyscrapers. And they all have a touch of genius, human genius. But
you cannot find a man who can make a star. And when God steps in, His working is like the difference between
a skyscraper and a star.
Mimi
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why does the universe have to have been 'created' by a great being? why can't it be seen that there is a 'creative principle' at work that simply causes life to form and evolve?
just because we are here and partially aware of it doesn't mean that it was all 'created' by a 'supreme being '. it just means we don't know where we came from. no one does, but many choose to opt out by simply adopting a belief that has no real substance. its called 'faith' and it is just another way to stick one's head in the sand.
you don't have to believe in a god to love and be loving. the law of cause and effect was around before humans were, and it doesn't take a deep thinker to realise that if you want to be loved, (as we all do) you must love.
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Faith is what gets some people through life. I sometimes wonder if my prayers work. I know I feel better after saying some, but is it just a form of meditation that is calming to me?
I like what you are saying about be loving. What you project is projected back to you. Many people that do have faith in a higher power don't live this way. :)
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Many people that do have faith in a higher power don't live this way. :)
I've seen plenty of examples of that kind of person.
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its kind of interesting how this thread drifted from 'finding purpose' to individuals' beliefs regarding the need, or lack of need, of spiritual endeavor.
i think that this 'need' to find purpose in our lives is a cellular condition, really. it goes deep down inside to our origins, that is, to the very foundation of all life itself.
if you look at all forms of life in the world, you will see that all life has one, common thread, or 'agenda.' it is evolution. all life evolves.
so perhaps this need we have to find a 'purpose' is really an expression of that deeper, underlying need and what we share with all living beings.
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I don't think it really drifted. I think some people find the purpose they have in life is directed by whatever higher power that they happen to believe in. I really think this was an interesting thread. Opinions have varied, some find purpose within others rely on religious beliefs.
Hey LightLizard, I have always wondered what really came first the chicken or the egg? :rofl; Did early man fry an egg first or fry a chicken? ???
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He couldn't to either until the frying pan was invented :rofl;
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He couldn't to either until the frying pan was invented :rofl;
:rofl; :rofl; :rofl;
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Ken always has the answer!! That is why he is Lord and Master of his own kingdom! :rofl;
If the egg was fried first, would there ever be a chicken to fry?
For years, I thought my purpose was to work with children. Raise my own and teach others were my main goals. Mine are grown, no longer teaching----purpose? Some days I really wonder. I wish it was to keep an immaculate house! Life is much simpler now; I just look for calm, things that give me happiness, time with family--------not looking for the big purpose, maybe just the today purpose. :thumbup;
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Ken always has the answer!! That is why he is Lord and Master of his own kingdom! :rofl;
If the egg was fried first, would there ever be a chicken to fry?
For years, I thought my purpose was to work with children. Raise my own and teach others were my main goals. Mine are grown, no longer teaching----purpose? Some days I really wonder. I wish it was to keep an immaculate house! Life is much simpler now; I just look for calm, things that give me happiness, time with family--------not looking for the big purpose, maybe just the today purpose. :thumbup;
Paris your calm positive approach to life is so encouraging to me and I guess many of us on IHD. In all your posts your warmth and kindness shines through.
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not looking for the big purpose, maybe just the today purpose.
Wow, you said a whole lot there, Paris!