I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Dialysis Discussion => Dialysis: General Discussion => Topic started by: RichardMEL on December 01, 2006, 05:11:08 PM
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Hi all.. this may seem like a bit of a silly question but I was thinking the other day....
I have been contemplating recently resuming, in some way, my international travels.. I feel reasonably well under dialysis and feel I could handle it, even for a few days or perhaps longer if I can work out some kind of deal to do dialysis over there (wherever it is).
Anyway this is not about that.
My question is more about the longer haul flying (eg:anything over say 3-4 hours, which is common from Australia to get anywhere!)... we all know that the dry cabins in aircraft make people dehydrated... so, does anyone know would this have a similar effect on people in our boat?
What I am really asking here is, if you're on a plane would it be reasonable to take extra fluids while on the plane to counter that or would it just make you massively over on your fluid count?
I swear I am not paying for first class if I can't have a couple of glasses of Dom at least!!! :)
Does anyone have any experience or understanding in this area?
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My question is more about the longer haul flying (eg:anything over say 3-4 hours, which is common from Australia to get anywhere!)... we all know that the dry cabins in aircraft make people dehydrated... so, does anyone know would this have a similar effect on people in our boat?
What I am really asking here is, if you're on a plane would it be reasonable to take extra fluids while on the plane to counter that or would it just make you massively over on your fluid count?
Well all I know is you have to really listen to your body and check for signs of dehydration. As long as you are not too dry then sticking to your fluid limits only makes sense as we have no way until dialysis to remove that fluid if you do miscalculate and have too much.
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I don't think dialysis patients have a probelm with dehidration. Have your dom and go for it.
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I've been on long flights (US east coast to Hong Kong) lasting over 18 hours. I would eat and drink about the same amounts ... maybe drink a little more. I dialyzed the night before the flight (or the morning of the flight) and scheduled hemodialysis the day after I arrived. It worked out fine. Just keep away from the Bloody Mary Mix. ;)
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I flew to the Philippines and back while I was on dialysis, and the entire flight, with a stop-over on the West coast and in Hong Kong, was 26 hours. I had no problem with dehydration, and in any case, there is plenty of water available on the plane -- though you have to make sure it is not the kind of bottled water which contains a large amount of potassium, so read the label carefully! What will seem strange to many people is that I also did not eat on the plane, since there was no way to avoid over-salted foods or foods with too much potassium, and I also had gastric motility problems while on dialysis that made eating difficult. But I had been used to fasting during the period while I was on dialysis anyway, since sometimes I would go for a day or two without eating just to avoid excess weight problems, so going 26 hours without eating was not impossible. In theory a human can go for an entire month without eating, but I have found four days are about the maximum I can tolerate before I become too weak.
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When flying just keep to your normal limits, but I like the idea of looking for loopholes. I normally eat the food on the plane. I know I should not but I am flying and I should not do that either. Who says two wrongs don't make a right. >:D
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Thanks guys - I was absolutely looking for a loophole/reason whereby I could drink more on board. For me, when I fly, that is part of the experience since I am mostly lucky enough to be able to fly in First or Business Class where the food is (usually) better and well the drinkies...yum! :) Alas, if I have to stick to my limits maybe I should just go coach and save some money! LOL
Thanks for the thoughts!
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Enjoy yourself! Go First Class and get lots of those little hot towels. No reason to starve yourself either. Eat, drink and be merry!!
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Enjoy yourself! Go First Class and get lots of those little hot towels. No reason to starve yourself either. Eat, drink and be merry!!
Well if you hardly have anything before the flight and after, you can enjoy all the drinks on the plane!! :2thumbsup; :clap; :beer1; :wine; .. well maybe not all :P
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In theory a human can go for an entire month without eating, but I have found four days are about the maximum I can tolerate before I become too weak.
Four days without eating? Wow...........I have a hard time going for 4 hours without eating.
Donna
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In theory a human can go for an entire month without eating, but I have found four days are about the maximum I can tolerate before I become too weak.
Four days without eating? Wow...........I have a hard time going for 4 hours without eating.
Donna
I don't think any dietitian would back 4 days without eating. I think they would be against it. Even for dialysis patients.
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But I had been used to fasting during the period while I was on dialysis anyway, since sometimes I would go for a day or two without eating just to avoid excess weight problems, so going 26 hours without eating was not impossible. In theory a human can go for an entire month without eating, but I have found four days are about the maximum I can tolerate before I become too weak.
Maybe the fact that you fasted so much is one of the reasons you did so poorly on hemodialysis. ;)
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I should stress that I only tried fasting for four days ONCE when I was on dialysis, and I would skip a day or two of eating perhaps only one every two or three months -- so that had nothing to do with my bad experience on dialysis. What did surprise me though was that fasting made my potassium levels increase, which was because the catabolization of one's own tissues releases more potassium that metabolism of external sources of calories. Fasting has been used for thousands of years in various forms of traditional medicine as a way to cleanse the body of toxins, and generally, I find that I enjoy how I feel if I don't eat for a day or two more than I do when I am eating. You'd be surprised how much time it frees up for other things, and how much it takes you out of the world of established habits and materialism.
Many people report changes in personal habits, likes, and dislikes after a transplant, which is a phenomenon called 'cellular memory' in the medical literature, and has to do with how profoundly the kidney can influence the way the entire body responds to stimuli. Thus after my transplant, I hate chewing gum, which I used to do all the time before; I don't like tea anymore; and I am never hungry! I have to force myself to eat, as if it were a kind of medicine, which makes me wonder my kidney, which came from a much smaller person than me, is expecting me only to eat as much as was sufficient for him.
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I have to force myself to eat, as if it were a kind of medicine, which makes me wonder my kidney, which came from a much smaller person than me, is expecting me only to eat as much as was sufficient for him.
Maybe your kidney doesn't like the food choices you make. Try eating more foods from your donor's country. You could probably ask Sara how to prepare them. ;)
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Many people report changes in personal habits, likes, and dislikes after a transplant, which is a phenomenon called 'cellular memory' in the medical literature, and has to do with how profoundly the kidney can influence the way the entire body responds to stimuli. Thus after my transplant, I hate chewing gum, which I used to do all the time before; I don't like tea anymore; and I am never hungry! I have to force myself to eat, as if it were a kind of medicine, which makes me wonder my kidney, which came from a much smaller person than me, is expecting me only to eat as much as was sufficient for him.
It is true that changes are reported but I do not buy the cellular memory claim as to that being the reason as some claim. Mainly being how one organ that makes up a very small percentage of the body would overrule the 99%+ of the "cellular memory" the person already has.
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I think the cellular memory idea keeps popping up because we're all a bit fascinated by the idea of someone truly "living on" through their donated body parts, even if it doesn't seem to have any scientific basis. But it seems to me that the more logical explanation would have to do with the side effects of the immunosuppressant drugs you have to take to to keep the kidney, and the chemical changes that occur in your body simply from having a functioning kidney in it again. Several of the websites I've looked at noted that you develop a metallic taste in your mouth as the kidney failure worsens, and that many patients lose their taste for certain kinds of food, such as red meat. It's also common to prefer sweeter flavors at the same time. It seems logical that if a failing kidney affects your sense of taste, suddenly having a working one would effect similar changes, only in reverse.
This was a post about flying - I think the cellular memory concept has hijacked it!
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Flying long distances and eating on board is fine. You could always pre-order low sodium meals, if you wish.
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Don't underrate how profoundly the kidney is networked into the rest of the body! It sends out signals which regulate blood pressure, the manufacture of red blood cells, the production of parathyroid hormones, the operation of the pituitary gland, and all this in addition to maintaining the homeostasis of the supply of electrolytes and fluid in the body. The old saying about a drop of water falling into the Atlantic Ocean affecting every molecule in all the world's oceans is particularly true of the complex system of human physiology, which is so densely interwoven by nerves and hormonal messaging that nothing happens in any one part without affecting the whole.
One experiment demonstrating this is that when cells are taken from some organ of an animal body, labelled with radioactive dye, and then injected into the body of another animal, even of an entirely different species, the cells can be tracked by x-rays as they travel immediately to the same organ in the new body as the corresponding organ in the body from which they came. How do they know where to go in the new body? How do they know how to travel there by the most efficient route in a totally strange environment? How do they know to stop when they reach the corresponding organ and not travel any farther? The answer has to be because every organ in the body is constantly sending out and receiving signals from all the rest of the body, so the injected cells can pick up on these and travel to where they belong. So if this is the case, it should be easy for a transplanted kidney to be sending out instructions all over the new body, changing a habit here and a taste preference there.
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I have to force myself to eat, as if it were a kind of medicine, which makes me wonder my kidney, which came from a much smaller person than me, is expecting me only to eat as much as was sufficient for him.
Maybe your kidney doesn't like the food choices you make. Try eating more foods from your donor's country. You could probably ask Sara how to prepare them. ;)
:rofl;
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Don't underrate how profoundly the kidney is networked into the rest of the body! It sends out signals which regulate blood pressure, the manufacture of red blood cells, the production of parathyroid hormones, the operation of the pituitary gland, and all this in addition to maintaining the homeostasis of the supply of electrolytes and fluid in the body. The old saying about a drop of water falling into the Atlantic Ocean affecting every molecule in all the world's oceans is particularly true of the complex system of human physiology, which is so densely interwoven by nerves and hormonal messaging that nothing happens in any one part without affecting the whole.
One experiment demonstrating this is that when cells are taken from some organ of an animal body, labelled with radioactive dye, and then injected into the body of another animal, even of an entirely different species, the cells can be tracked by x-rays as they travel immediately to the same organ in the new body as the corresponding organ in the body from which they came. How do they know where to go in the new body? How do they know how to travel there by the most efficient route in a totally strange environment? How do they know to stop when they reach the corresponding organ and not travel any farther? The answer has to be because every organ in the body is constantly sending out and receiving signals from all the rest of the body, so the injected cells can pick up on these and travel to where they belong. So if this is the case, it should be easy for a transplanted kidney to be sending out instructions all over the new body, changing a habit here and a taste preference there.
Thats odd. I had a transplant from my father and I even look like him now.
Staffenberg it might be more in your head with the idea that is changing your habits. Peoples tastes to change as I now eat different foods to when I was younger. I do not believe in an organ transplant changing your whole body, it might send out some signals.
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I should stress that I only tried fasting for four days ONCE when I was on dialysis, and I would skip a day or two of eating perhaps only one every two or three months -- so that had nothing to do with my bad experience on dialysis. What did surprise me though was that fasting made my potassium levels increase, which was because the catabolization of one's own tissues releases more potassium that metabolism of external sources of calories. Fasting has been used for thousands of years in various forms of traditional medicine as a way to cleanse the body of toxins, and generally, I find that I enjoy how I feel if I don't eat for a day or two more than I do when I am eating. You'd be surprised how much time it frees up for other things, and how much it takes you out of the world of established habits and materialism.
Many people report changes in personal habits, likes, and dislikes after a transplant, which is a phenomenon called 'cellular memory' in the medical literature, and has to do with how profoundly the kidney can influence the way the entire body responds to stimuli. Thus after my transplant, I hate chewing gum, which I used to do all the time before; I don't like tea anymore; and I am never hungry! I have to force myself to eat, as if it were a kind of medicine, which makes me wonder my kidney, which came from a much smaller person than me, is expecting me only to eat as much as was sufficient for him.
If you are on dialysis fasting wont get rid of toxins, it probly wont help you much at all.
As for drinking on the plane, the only way you would get dehydrated if you were sweating or vomiting excessively or if you had severe diahorrea.
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It's true that a dialysis patient with no residual renal function would not get rid of many toxins during fasting, but I retained about 10% of normal renal function for the first five years of dialysis, until some silly nephrologist, noting that my blood pressure was marginally high, insisted I take an anti-hypertensive that was damaging to the kidneys. As a result of no longer clearing any fluids on my own because of the resulting kidney damage, my blood pressure then became higher!
But dehydration on planes is a well-known phenomenon affecting all people on long flights, and is due to the atmospheric conditions inside the plane. This is why airlines are always forcing liquids on the passengers and why some even hand out moist face towels.
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Yes, this was exactly my feeling. Sure, we have less fluid to lose (in theory) but I wondered if we, as dialysis patients, might lose some/more fluid due to the dry cabin atmosphere, and if that meant more could be consumed.
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Any long haul flying I do - I just ask the flight attendant for ice cubes and chew alot of gum. The only time I find I'm really affected is when I'm going to a much warmer climate. The humidity factor and the heat tend to make you retain more fluid and your hands and feet swell more. I so hate feeling gross.
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But dehydration on planes is a well-known phenomenon affecting all people on long flights, and is due to the atmospheric conditions inside the plane. This is why airlines are always forcing liquids on the passengers and why some even hand out moist face towels.
Is this well known phenomenon in relation to normal healthy people though? What conditions are you talking about? I didnt find it hot and sweaty in the plane, and a definitely didnt lose any fluid during the flight. Now I did lose a litre of fluid sitting at the hot markets all day sweating my butt off!
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The skin is sometimes referred to as a 'third kidney,' because it can act the same way the kidney does to remove toxins and fluid from the body through perspiration. Patients who have put off dialysis way too long will develop all over their skin what is called 'uremic frost,' which is a layer of toxins drawn out of the blood stream by the skin in its role as substitute kidney. On a plane, the dry air will draw more moisture out of everyone, whether they have renal failure or not, which is why airline staff are always forcing fluids on patients. Under normal conditions a person loses about 0.5 kilograms of fluid a day through the breath and through perspiration via the skin, but in very warm or very dry conditions, this amount can be greatly increased. A friend of mine was a captain in the Israeli Army and one of his roles, while marching troops through the Negev Desert, was to require them to stop every 15 minutes and drink a prescribed amount of water whether they wanted to or not. This was because so much fluid can be lost from the human body in hot, dry conditions that the thirst sensors of the body cannot register how much replacement fluid is really needed.
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Stauffenberg, you must be a hoot at parties huh? :P
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The skin is sometimes referred to as a 'third kidney,' because it can act the same way the kidney does to remove toxins and fluid from the body through perspiration. Patients who have put off dialysis way too long will develop all over their skin what is called 'uremic frost,' which is a layer of toxins drawn out of the blood stream by the skin in its role as substitute kidney. On a plane, the dry air will draw more moisture out of everyone, whether they have renal failure or not, which is why airline staff are always forcing fluids on patients. Under normal conditions a person loses about 0.5 kilograms of fluid a day through the breath and through perspiration via the skin, but in very warm or very dry conditions, this amount can be greatly increased. A friend of mine was a captain in the Israeli Army and one of his roles, while marching troops through the Negev Desert, was to require them to stop every 15 minutes and drink a prescribed amount of water whether they wanted to or not. This was because so much fluid can be lost from the human body in hot, dry conditions that the thirst sensors of the body cannot register how much replacement fluid is really needed.
Yes, I often feel like a patient when I am on an aircraft :)
Well it is 42 degrees C here yesterday (107.6F aparently) and I lost a heap of fluid (according to my home scales) from sweating.. so I enjoyed an extra glass or two of ice water.. about the only time I was glad for a hot day!
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Just go by how you are feeling, and if possible take a blood pressure monitor with you. I still wouldnt go overboard.
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Oh but it's Dom Perignon!! How can you not drink as much as possible at $200 a bottle? :D
lol
just kidding :)
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Happy Birthday Richard.....drink Dom....and plenty of it. Inbetween sips, suck some ice and spray your skin with some Evian....you'll arrive feeling brand new......and this comes from another Aussie who is use to long-haul trips to reach other civilizations.