I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Dialysis Discussion => Dialysis: General Discussion => Topic started by: cdwbrooklyn on January 08, 2010, 01:48:09 PM
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As I was reading some posts and people were explaining their issues, I noticed that some people refer to dialysis as life support. I've never heard anyone in my clinic refer to dialysis as life support. I don't see it that way and to be honest it upsets me when people actually see it as life support because I don't see myself on any life support at all. >:(
Life support to me is a machine that helps you breath because you can't do it on your own. Dialysis is not that kind of machine. Dialysis is a machine to clean the toxins out of your blood because you kidneys are not able to do it because of weakness or failure. So how does one person gets dialysis mixed up with life support? This is way over my head :urcrazy;
Can someone please explain to me the similarities of dialysis and life support? ???
Thanks
CDW 8)
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I'm with yu. I don't see it as life support - even though it is supporting my life. Life support is a term as you said, which refers to a machine that keeps you alive 24/7. Dialysis is no more life support to me than the chemo I take to keep my cancer at bay.
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I certainly view dialysis as life support. And I don't view chemotherapy as such at all. Chemo is a treatment for cancer, the goal being to zap the cancer into remission and one is not on chemo indefinitely. We hope that the cancer is eradicated and we continue life without chemo. Without any chemo treatment in the first place, a cancer patient may die or they may not if the cancer goes into remission on it's own.
Dialysis on the other hand keeps people with ESRD alive. It literally supports us to continue living. If we stop dialysis, which keeps us alive by artificial measures, we will die....depending on our individual residual function it would'nt take very long either.
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Definition of Life support
Life support: 1. A therapy or device designed to preserve someone's life when an essential bodily system is not doing so. Life support may, for example, involve enteric feeding (by a tube), total parenteral nutrition, mechanical ventilation, a pacemaker, defibrillator, heart/lung machine, or dialysis.
(found when I googled life support)
I think this helps explains why it is looked at as life support. You will die without kidney function and dialysis is artificial replacement of what the kidneys do.
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In all honesty, I don't understand why this is such a central issue when discussing dialysis. It seems to come up quite often. Yes, I understand these definitions matter in the legal world, but for those of us just living our day to day lives, I guess I don't get why the semantics of it are so distracting.
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In all honesty, I don't understand why this is such a central issue when discussing dialysis. It seems to come up quite often. Yes, I understand these definitions matter in the legal world, but for those of us just living our day to day lives, I guess I don't get why the semantics of it are so distracting.
i see you too ignore the big blue gorilla in the corner of the room. i'll say it again, he has a right to be there as long as he cleans up his own messes.
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So it is life support. For a diabetic so is, sometimes, insulin. That still doesn't mean it is ok to deny the "treatment" or "life support" without the patients request, directive or some other court approved legal means.
If, grammalady, we were only her if we keep the mess cleaned up, where would I move to? :rofl;
Why do I comment on these things? As Cariad just said, I guess I don't get why the semantics of it are so distracting.
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And Monrein some cancers aren't cureable and do need lifetime chemo - so what's the difference then. I mean that I don't regard it as the same as life support - not that it isn't technically.
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:Kit n Stik;
Is heating your house life support? We would freeze to death if we didn't have heat.
Never mind......It doesn't matter.
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I my view life support as a special kind of treatment. Most treatments improve your life; life support is a treatment that prevents death.
So I suppose house heating might be a form of life support.
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Dont forget Food..... just had my dinner..... I mean life support....... :rofl; :rofl;
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I think Monrein, said it well. For My Husband, it is, Life Support. Maybe, it depends, on what Stage, You, entered, it as to how You see it. My Husband, went from being " Well " to Complete Kidney Failure, in Two Weeks. Without it now, He would Die and it would not take very long. I don't mean to sound " Crass " when I say, this, It's just a Fact.
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I don't consider dialysis a form of life support and I never will. From my point of view it is a treatment.It has always been explained to me as a treatment, not a cure. No Dr. said it was life support. Guess it all depends on your point of view....I'm just glad dialysis was available for my daughter...years ago a group of people chose who got dialysis...if you weren't one of the ones chosen you died...no choices, no options.
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Legally, it's considered life support. Even the Catholic church considers it life support - they don't consider it suicide to stop it.
Mentally, most of us think "treatment" because we need to focus on the idea that we can live long, active lives on it. Everyone's mental image of life support usually involves someone in ICU, covered in tubes and barely alive.
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To me it's life support because without it, Jenna would not have survived. ESRD is terminal without it. Same with her kidney transplant, it prolongs her life, and if it fails, she'll be back on dialysis.
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We can live a long time with dialysis yes I do consider it life support, I dont compare it to chemo or the other life sustaining machines. Ive seen my father on dialysis and we had him in our lives longer than we would have if he didnt do the treatment and I seen my mother suffer and die from cancer would we have put her on life support no because she would have suffered longer with the type of cancer she had, and I wouldnt want anybody to go thru what she went thru.
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Interesting discussion demonstrating how most things are perspectives. If you think about it, eating is life support isn't it? But what's wrong with life support?
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what is wrong w life support?
There needs to be a legal answer, but it boils down to individual view point. And peace w that.
I have had asthma my whole life & been treated w steroids, preventive meds as well as acute med.
For me asthma was easy to define. As it was audible, visual, & tactile..... & acute. The only thing i could see from ckd was foamy pee. i have many symptoms from k failure and D, when my head hurts i tend to FEEL the problem is in my head. (ha oops didn't mean it like that) it was always easier for me to treat the asthma when it needed it.
- lets see if i can make my point now-
with out the asthma med, i promise you that i would not be here. sustaining my life. D is sustaining my life also, but the difference is i cannot make different health choices, herbal remedies, and shield myself from certain things and maintain a good Kt/v or GFR. having those choices is what separates a medical option and life support. If i could say this machine isn't doing it for me i think ill take a yr leave. (but i would die) then i would not consider this treatment life support.
Our lifes are extemded, prolonged. bc of technology we are confronted with our mortality with a choice. Which seems kind of unnatural to me. Some may refuse to hear the knock of death, and not see it as a choice, others may see it as a blessing to give them more time. it is some thing we choose to do every treatment, and we our all aware of what changing our minds means.
I struggled w this issue for a long time, as i always believed that i didn't want any type of life support ever. I either had to change my personal definition of life support, or accept D the way i saw it.
Girl
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I think dialysis is definitely life support. And I don't have a problem with the fact that my husband is on life support -- just glad there's a life support available for him.
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Yep, glad there is still a life to support. Dialysis and Lantus and a couple of spam sandwiches and I have a life. Only wish I had a younger and better looking body to go with it.
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http://www.deathreference.com/Ke-Ma/Life-Support-System.html
Just because I don't WANT to view myself as needing any form of life support doesn't mean that I'm not on it. All sorts of things support life in humans, breathing, eating and so on and the stark truth is that every human being is in a process of dying. None of us will get out alive. There is however a distinction to be made between a treatment (dialysis is a life sustaining treatment) without which a person would die within a reasonably predictable time frame and a treatment that treats a condition and improves the quality of life but without which life will continue to bump along indefinitely...not forever which is impossible but without a pretty clear end in sight. Although food supports life (and we should indeed worry about the quality and quantity of what we eat) I don't think anyone considers it a "treatment" but rather one of the essential conditions of life. It's not a treatment if it's something that every human being must do, it seems to me.
All this stuff can of course be "argued" and picked at until infinity, such is the nature of linguistics, but I think this discussion has more to do with our personal feelings about our illness and our own mortality than it does with the semantics or semiotics of the words life support. Denial or the personal redefinition of words can be comforting to some and as such can be viewed as a functional coping mechanism as long as dialysis is continued. If however we take the idea that D is NOT life support, to it's logical end and stop doing it, we will more than likely be dead reasonably quickly. Furthermore, we are not obliged to do dialysis, we have the choice to refuse or even stop life support measures and as such we are not legally considered to have committed suicide.
I'm personally very happy to have lived a very artificially prolonged life. I was given 6 weeks to live at 8 months old but I will turn 57 this year. I don't find death scary but I prefer living with the support currently offered by my kidney transplant and if and when that fails, like my last one did, then I'll be back in the world of D, and glad it's there if I choose it.
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I, personally, would die possibly in weeks or perhaps month without my support of dialysis. However I could end it all in a couple of days (at least the consciousness of it) if I abruptly stop Lantus. It's all semantics anyway. Whoever needs the last word, Go. :thumbup;
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Whoever needs the last word, Go. :thumbup;
"GO" says Petey............didn't surprise you that I wanted the last word, now did it, Dan?
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Thanks everyone who responded. I've taken you views in consideration and can see why some may see if as life support. However, I am not in a state of denial and I do see dialysis as treatments. There are people who have to be on meds for the rest of their life or they will die. Meds are considered treatments to a person that needs it in order to survive. I see dialysis as a med that I need to survive, which is considered treatments to me. On the other hand, life support is a machine I need to breath and without it, I cannot breath. Being on life support, you cannot work, play, date, eat solid foods, etc. So life support is more devastating then dialysis. I only need dailysis three times a week for 3 1/2 hours. I can skip one treatment and still be okay. On life support, I need it every day 24/7. I cannot skip it because I will die as soon as I am not on it. To me, it is a huge difference. So, my mind cannot wrap around dialysis as being life support. Sorry, I don't see it that way however, I do respect those who do.
Thanks again everyone! 8)
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Petey said it all -- I thought my husband was going to die before he finally agreed to dialysis. I am ever so thankful for the life support that is dialysis.
dwcrawford -- what in the heck is that in your picture?
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A close up of a donkey. thus the caption "I'm ready for my closeup Mr. Demille." Gloria Swanson in Sunset Blvd.
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OH! Hahaha! It sort of looks like a doggies muzzle but then the eyes are missing... So then it looked like a butt! ;D
Well it is cute!
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OH! Hahaha! It sort of looks like a doggies muzzle but then the eyes are missing... So then it looked like a butt! ;D
muuuuuhaaaaaahaaaaaa!!! Dan's now showing us his "butt" ..... muuuuuhaaaahaaaa! :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl;
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dialysis, lantus, and spam sandwiches... all life support in their own ways. I'm not sure why this is an important question either.
Dialysis - not particularly pleasant, necessary to live if your kidneys fail.
Eating - very pleasant, necessary to live.
Ventilator - horrible, necessary to live if you cannot breathe on your own.
The question is how intrusive is the form of life support and what kind of life is supporting? Is the "cost" worth the benefit?
Eating...OMG!!! I have to do it 3 times a day, so it is quite intrusive but kinda nice. So the cost is low. If this is my only necessary form of life support then it is supporting a relatively good life (maybe not, but probably). No reason to discontinue this life support (pass me a spam sandwich, please).
Dialysis... Intrusive, 3 times a week, 6 to 8 hrs shot then naptime... This is a high cost. Benefit... this is totally judged by the individual. Some feel good post dialysis and in their off days. Some can continue to work. Some still enjoy the little things - time with their spouse, their children, their friends, pursuing their hobbies. Some simply consider life worth living. How many have stayed around to see their children into adulthood. These individuals consider the benefit worth the cost and do not discontinue this life support.
The Ventilator... Intrusive 24/7, bulky? you remain tied to a bed, a hospital room? The cost is quite high. The benefit? Is there hope for a better future? Then maybe there's a benefit worth the cost.
There is a wide spectrum of things that might be identified as life support. Identifying dialysis as life support allows for the next step - the question of is it okay to discontinue dialysis or is it suicide. That seems to be why it is considered an important question (we have a fairly hot thread devoted to that).
I consider quality of life (as viewed by the individual) to be important, not how the inevitable is being delayed, no matter what you call the method.
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cdw - i assume this thread was posted bc of something i said in a different post. If so I hoped i better explained myself. Either way if u want to talk about the subject more you can always pm me.
Monrien- I wasnt trying to offend you, but the way i see it is treatment vs cure, not life support vs treatment. so i really didn't think it controversial to say 'life sustaining treatment'.
I truely do not think there is a wrong side to this coin.
Much love
girl
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Heavens above girliekick, I'm not remotely offended. I have zero idea why you think you might have offended me. I like words and languages and the meanings of words. I posted a link which discusses various forms of life support and there are always a variety of shades of meaning when we attempt to define or describe something. There are personal definitions, medical definitions and legal definitions. I much prefer discussing stuff like this face to face with people because there is less chance for people's assumptions about what is being actually said, to kick in.
No offense taken and hopefully none given...I come to this board to share ideas, certainly not to alienate.
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I don't see anything to be offended or to offend about on this thread. It is semantics. The comment below (or above) by aharris pretty well sums it up i'd say. The real question is and discussion should be about "What the heck is in Spam anyway?" and would eating it on a daily basis actually shorten your life span? And is it ok just on holidays (you know everything in moderation)?
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Just like any situation in life, it is a matter of perspective. If you are 3 years old and fall off your bike and rip your knee open it may be the worst thing that has ever happened to you. Compare this to a 3 year old who has struggled to breath or been diabetic or been on dialysis his/her whole life. Their perspectie on pain and suffering is much different.
For those of you new to dialysis you have a different view of dialysis. I remember being thankful that I didn't throw up every day anymore and had enough energy to get out of bed. Yes, dialysis was new and I felt (at that time 22 years ago) that it was a treatment and I'd probably get better and a transplant would return me to my normal life of a 24 year old. WRONG-OOO
I think.... I know, the longer you are on dialysis and the more fistulagrams and the more Explanations of Benefits and the more screw-ups you live through on dialysis the more cynical you get. You get to the day where you start wondering if it is all worth it. The cost the greed the suffering.
I can't type anymore because once I fill up the white space it starts jumping all over. Also my puppy insists on being in my arms when I'm on the computer.
Yes, dialysis is life support and a very expensive one. My sister would say coffee is life support as there is nothing else wrong with her.
:waving;
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Omg, Rerun, I trully understand what you just wrote. I get frustrated now with only a few months behind me (albeit, quite an advanced age to have to start). The "5 year life expectancy" doesn't really phase me. At 69, I'm already older than anyone ever in my family so the genes aren't on my side. Heath care is and was. however.
I do care about your situation and others. What a rough road it has been for you! Please understand that when I do "tongue in cheek" comments or sillly comebacks it is just my belief that even a small amount of levity (possible anyway) will make a slight difference in the lives of people who are suffering from this horrible situation. Hey.. including myself.
I'll say it once and for all right now but never again: I hate dialysis, but I fear a transplant more.
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Omg, Rerun, I trully understand what you just wrote.
No way! I want this gold plated! :2thumbsup;
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Hehe... miracles do happen in the strangest places. :rofl;
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Rerun says cost - expensive, but there's that benefit - the puppy in the arms :cuddle;
and DW!!! Rerun, you touched DW! :bow;
Only you can say if it was worth it.
;)
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no offence taken, and i am very pleased none was given!!!
Face to face is always better.
Girl
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A few years ago there was going to be a statewide nurses strike.
I was at dialysis and I asked one of the senior nurses how that would affect us and he said to me that there was a rule that dialysis nurses could not(or would not) strike because it is considered an essential life support service.
When you think about it that's absolutely correct. Without dialysis service we'd all die in varying amounts of time. This is not elective. This is something we need to live.
Now I realise that "life support" to most gives you visions of a ventilator and being hooked up 24/7 to machines keeping bodily functions going. I also know that when my time comes I do not want to be kept propped up by such machines just to lie in a bed with no quality of life. I'd rather pull the plug and move on.
This is why I see Dialysis as different. At least with D it's absolutely life support, but it also allows us to HAVE a life.. and I mean a real life. Get out there and do stuff. Work, play, etc.... It's not like being chained to a bed with a ventilator for company with no quality of life.
So to me, technically it IS life support and essential to me, but it supports my life, rather than keeps me going(and that's it).
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In all honesty, I don't understand why this is such a central issue when discussing dialysis. It seems to come up quite often. Yes, I understand these definitions matter in the legal world, but for those of us just living our day to day lives, I guess I don't get why the semantics of it are so distracting.
i see you too ignore the big blue gorilla in the corner of the room. i'll say it again, he has a right to be there as long as he cleans up his own messes.
Hmmmm, grammalady, though this image made me smile, I'm not sure how it applies to what I said. If anything, I thought I was trying to call the gorilla out into the light and ask it to explain itself.
I see that Karol referred to a transplant as 'life support'. I don't see it that way, but it doesn't bother me that she does. It doesn't mean I re-examine my whole life and think "This whole time I've been on life support! What a waste!" This seems to be a huge mental barrier that has some people rejecting dialysis out of hand. Perhaps if they weren't thinking "dialysis is more than dialysis, it's really this other incredibly spooky, taboo thing" they could save their energy for the battle with renal failure. When people make life and death decisions based primarily on the use of a term, I find that a bit baffling and I want to understand why. I think jbeany and others pinpointed the problem with the image that life support means you are totally incapacitated, vegetative, no hope, and a burden on society. Maybe dialysis is life support, but life support does not always mean what you think it means? Then we're back to wondering why label it something else at all.
I do love linguistics, but for whatever reason, this life support issue is simply not compelling to me. I am grateful that it doesn't have me wringing my hands, and that I seem to just view dialysis as dialysis.
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At first the idea was shocking to me, that Jenna would die without dialysis or transplant. But when I finally accepted that idea the next thing to do was to get her the best care possible.
I don't see the term "life support" as being a negative term, so the time spent using some artificial means or borrowed organ to stay alive is certainly NOT wasted.
Either way, this thread is entitled "Life Support or Treatment - What do you call it?" - so it really is whatever you're comfortable calling it.
Here's one doctor's list:
The treatments of life support include:
* oxygen
* intravenous fluids with sugar and basic salts
* drugs to improve circulation and other body functions
* antibiotics
* transfusions
* surgery
* nutritional supplements by vein or stomach tube
* tubes in body cavities (chest or abdomen) to relieve fluid buildup
* dialysis
* pacemaker
* electrical defibrillation
* various machines to assist heart or lung function
* transplantation of organs or mechanical substitutes (artificial heart)
* sedation or even temporary paralysis to enable the patient to tolerate these procedures
— Isaac R. Berniker
http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/life-support
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Bottom line, without the dialysis you would die, ergo "life support."
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cdw - i assume this thread was posted bc of something i said in a different post. If so I hoped i better explained myself. Either way if u want to talk about the subject more you can always pm me.
Girliekick, sorry to take long to respond, however, I've posted this topic because I've never heard the term life support for dialysis. It kind of disturbed me. I've been on dialysis for almost 11 years; and, I've never heard any doctor, nurse, or technician use the term life support so it took me by surprise. Although, I don't see dialysis as life support, and never will, I can understand why some may see it as life support. It was a question that came to mind and I wanted to see if I was the only person on IHD that saw it that way. It has nothing to do with what you posted. I've seen it on several difference posts and wanted to clarify the definition of life support vs. dialysis. As time goes on, I will post things that may come to mind and see what others on IHD feel about it. It has nothing to do with anyone. :police:
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it was a great post, i think it will be helpful to many in the future.
Girl
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I never thought of it as life support before. I guess it depends upon each persons own perspective. i think for me though the major difference between 'life support' and treatment is that i am able to chose to STOP treatment and end my life should i chose (not that i would). or to change treatment type. to me life support, well when i was on life support there was no choice, i wasn't conscious. Someone else had to make decisions for me. There was no quality of life just existance.
So i can understand why some see D as life support as it technically does sustain life but i chose to see it as treatment. I can't wait for stemcell therapy to re-grow my own kidney.... cure! yay wouldn't that be awesome. It may seem like a pipe dream but i will hold onto it.