I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Dialysis Discussion => Dialysis: General Discussion => Topic started by: billybill1 on July 08, 2009, 08:51:35 PM
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Hi Everyone:
As I said in my intro post I'm on a journey to use sauna & sweating to keep off dialysis permanently. Through my research I find out
that I would be able to get enough fluids out through the sauna. But I wasn't sure about getting out all the waste products in the blood.
I did have a hunch that as a persons kidneys decline more waste would start coming out through the sweat glands. In other words the dirtier the blood the
dirtier the sweat. I ran into an article on a condition called Uremic frost which is common in people with bum kidneys. Their sweat becomes so filled with waste that when it evaporates it leaves a crystalline frost on the skin made of waste from the blood. BINGO!!!!!!!!!! :bandance; The sweat glands do take over for the impaired kidneys in removing wastes from the body. How could they not! There's no mechanism to stop it from coming out. Therefore the right amount of saunaing cold do the same thing as dialysis.
I figure an hour or so a day will give you a full days worth of kidney function. Because it takes an hour to sweat out 2 liters of sweat which is the average amount a person urinates in a day. I going to assume enough blood waste will also come also.
So far it's working for me. I have no tell tall signs of kidney disease. Also the signs I did have have vanished.
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Please keep us informed. Are you getting regular blood tests? I am VERY interested to hear what your levels are after a month of your SD (sauna dialysis).
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I would be very skeptical of sweating replacing dialysis...if it could a lot more people would be doing it. I just do not beleive you can sweat out enough toxins in an hour or even two- a day. I think it sounds very dangerous.
When my husband had 0% function he used sauna suits to be able to drink more, but he had to be very careful about sweating too much without replacing the electolytes in his body. Neph said it could cause fatal heart problems. Your body has a very delicate balance of electricity.
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I've stopped getting regular blood tests. But I did get a test one month after I started saunaing and my creatinine no. dropped from 3.2 to 2.5.
It takes about six months to get up to speed on the sauna. I do it everyday for 6 or 7 rounds which takes an hour. each round lasts about 10 minutes.
7 to 8 minutes in the sauna and 2 to 3 minutes of cold shower in between. I throw 2 to 3 ladels of water on the rocks at the start of each session. It gets the sweating started very fast. I don't mess around in the sauna. It's a bit of an ordeal, but well worth it.You have to start off slow. It's like execise your body has to adapt.
You can't just do a 5 minute sauna 2 times a week at the gym. It's a real physical therapy. But when you come out the sauna your floating on cloud nine.
I get completely relaxed. Also you feel like your taking matters into you own hands. Not just waiting for a doctor to do something for you.
The American Indians used the sweat lodge (sauna) for spiritual purposes as well for health. The sauna is a great place to relax. It's a very sacred womb like place.
No matter how rotten or upset I feel when I enter the sauna I always feel great when I come out.
If you can getting sweating asap!
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Hey Glitter:
With all due respect your replay is coming out of fear and very little knowledge or facts.
You didn't dispute a single fact in my post. You just gave a general broadside based on fear.
Saunas are everywhere. Millions of people use them everyday. Are people dying from them?
If your already on dialysis I do not reccomend you stop dialysis when you start saunaing. I'm simple sharing my personal
journey with others.
And just because a lot of people aren't already doing doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Dialysis is one of the most profitable areas of big medicine. Do you think they have an interest in something
that costs 1/100th the cost.
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Billy:
Please stop PUSHING saunas as a means of treating kidney disease!!!!!!!
You do this on all the forums.
If it works tell a doctor or a nephrologist and let the medical world know. You stopped taking blood tests, so where is your proof that it actually works? You are quick to tell Glitter that she has not disputed a single fact in your post but PLEASE go for bloodtests and proof your theory. You are basing your WHOLE idea on a single bloodtest from a single person and on an article you read? If I believed every article I read about "fixing" my kidneys I would be taking the weirdest medication and I would be taking all kinds of herbs and stuff.
Are you on dialysis?
What caused your kidney disease?
Are you in the medical profession?
What medical qualifications do you have?
How many tests did you do and on how many people did you "test" your theory on?
You are endangering people's lives. Kidney failure is a life threatening disease and it is NO JOKE.
We want a easy fix but don't you think if something as easy as a sauna can replace dialysis someone besides you Bill would have found it out by now.
Thanks for sharing your personal journey with us bit I still think you must do bloodtests and consult a doctor.
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Billy, Here is some of your "pushing" posts in April 2008 on the Davita site.
April 2008
Saunas and heavy sweating do the same thing as dialysis. Everything that comes
out in urine also comes out in sweat. The skin is called the third kidney because it does
the same thing as the kidney.
I take an hour sauna everyday. That sweats out 2 liters of fluid.
Dr. Weil recommends saunas for people with kidney failure.
I would be careful about asking your doctor or nurse unless they also
know about alternative medicine. Most of them only know how to
get out the prescription pad.
April 2008
Hot tubs and baths are not good because they could interfere with your catheter. Saunas won't because they're dry or have some steam which germs cant live in.
Saunas are fine if your on dialysis. In fact sweating in the sauna is dialysis. I do it instead of dialysis. You have to be able to stay in a long time. For at least an hour. Of course not straight. I break it up to 5 or 6 rounds. The first round is 20 minutes. The rest are ten minutes.
It takes about 3 to 4 months to build up to that lenght. And you have to do it 7 days a week.
Also I take cold showers in between rounds which also stimulates circulation.
But saunas have all positive effects whereas dialysis can have deadly side effects.
Read the wiki site for saunas.
One again be careful to ask most Doctors who know nothing about anything natural.
April 2008
That sounds good but most Doctors don't know anything about saunas and using your skin as the third kidney. And saunas do "significantly alter the fluids of the body" which is exactly what dialysis does which is why it can be used as an alternative treatment for some people.
If you're already on dialysis I wouldn't go off it and use saunas only. It's important to find a Doctor that practices integrative medicine.
Also saunaing is much easier on your body.
I'm still at 40% kidney function which is pre dialysis. So saunas are perfect for me because they greatly increase my kidney function.
April 2008
Your husband may want to consider using the sauna. An hour in the sauna sweats out
about 2 liters of excess fluids which is about as much as most people pee in a day.
A good rule of thumbs about saunas is if you're able to do light exercise you can sauna.
They're very safe. Most YMCAs have saunas.
I used to have edema in my feet from congestive heart failure. Since I've been saunaing
for an hour everyday the edema has completely disappear.
Start at 10 minutes and take cold showers between rounds. usually you can get 4 to 5 rounds in an hour. Of course don't try to take a sauna for an hour solid.
Please feel free to email me at billybill1@hotmail.com with any questions.
Billy,
In the above thread you state that your sauna even helped with congestive heart failure.
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This is an open forum. How dare you tell me what I can post! I am breaking no rules of this site
by sharing my experiences. You may take my posts for what they're worth. And I will continue to share what I've learned.
My experience with standard medicine was a complete horror. No doctor suggest a single treatment
for my poly cystic kidney disease, it was just countdown to dialysis. If you want to go that route
than I respect that. But don't try to suppress other people into exploring this safe ancient natural option.
I found my case the natural alternative approach far superior to standard western medicine.
I thought this sight was called "I Hate Dialysis". I've just found a much more
benign alternative to ridding my system of excess fluids and wastes in my blood.
I Hate Dialysis also and which to postpone it at the very least.
I you have a dispute with anything I've said please give me the specific facts as to why
I'm wrong. I'm more than willing to learn more. That's part of my journey.
Sauna are very safe. Of course get blood tests if that works for you.
But please don't discourage anyone from investigating or taking saunas.
And of course just don't stop dialysis if you already doing that.
My last observation is that the more I investigate the sauna for kidneys failure
the more the hard facts lead me to the conclusion that saunaing does the same thing as dialysis.
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These are my posts on the Davita sight. What about it. I was sharing the info I researched in response to a question
someone asked. Let me throw the ball back in your court. Was anything I said in my posts incorrect.
I don't think making me the issue is the correct way to proceed. If your going to take issue with what I've said
please come back at me with the facts and tell me where I'm wrong.
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?
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Billy:
Are you on dialysis?
What caused your kidney disease?
Are you in the medical profession?
What medical qualifications do you have?
How many tests did you do and on how many people did you "test" your theory on?
I did ask a lot of questions.
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This is an open forum. THAT GAVE ME THE RIGHT TO REPLY. How dare you tell me what I can post! I NEVER SAID YOU CANNOT POST IT. I am breaking no rules of this site
by sharing my experiences. I SAID THANKYOU FOR SHARING YOUR EXPERIENCE You may take my posts for what they're worth. And I will continue to share what I've learned. GOOD.
My experience with standard medicine was a complete horror. No doctor suggest a single treatment
for my poly cystic kidney disease, it was just countdown to dialysis. I HAVE PKD AS WELL. If you want to go that route
than I respect that. But don't try to suppress other people into exploring this safe ancient natural option.I DID NOT SUPRESS ANYBODY I ASKED FOR PROOF THAT YOUR METHOD IS WORKING.
I found my case the natural alternative approach far superior to standard western medicine.
I thought this sight was called "I Hate Dialysis". I've just found a much more
benign alternative to ridding my system of excess fluids and wastes in my blood. GOOD FOR YOU, PLEASE PROOF IT SO THAT OTHERS CAN FOLLOW YOU.
I Hate Dialysis also and which to postpone it at the very least. SO DO I.
I you have a dispute with anything I've said please give me the specific facts as to why
I'm wrong. I DID NO SAY YOU ARE WRONG I ASKED FOR MEDICAL PROOF FOR YOUR STATEMENT. I'm more than willing to learn more. That's part of my journey.
Sauna are very safe. Of course get blood tests if that works for you.
But please don't discourage anyone from investigating or taking saunas. I WILL WARN ANYONE ABOUT EXPLORING TREATMENT THAT HAS NO VERIFIED RESULTS. AS YOU SAID IN THE BEGINNING "IT IS AN OPEN FORUM" And of course just don't stop dialysis if you already doing that.
My last observation is that the more I investigate the sauna for kidneys failure
the more the hard facts lead me to the conclusion that saunaing does the same thing as dialysis.
I am not shouting I just bold my replies to show it better.
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Just for kicks I found the article about dr Weil recomending sauna.
He clearly states that a person with high blood pressure should not do this without consulting a doc. He says that it will take the workload off the kidney and liver. Not that 1 hour will replace dialysis or get rid of 2liters of fluid.
Q Skittish about Saunas?
A friend is urging me to go to the sauna. I'm wary of being exposed to so much heat. What's your recommendation?
A Answer (Published 3/10/2006)
I'm a sauna enthusiast, and I often recommend "sweat bathing" in saunas (or steam rooms) to cleanse the skin, soothe sore muscles, or simply relax. Sweating in a sauna can also be beneficial to patients with arthritis, asthma or respiratory infections, and is a good way to recover from overindulgence in food or drink. The sweating rids the body of excess sodium and other unwanted substances. It also helps eliminate drugs and some toxins and by doing so can take some of the workload off the liver and kidneys. I recommend regular visits to saunas or steam rooms to patients with liver or kidney disease.
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Sweating in a sauna or steam room dilates the blood vessels, which reduces blood pressure and increases circulation to the skin. You don't need much time in the heat - 10 to 20 minutes is enough to work up a good sweat. After exercise, a sauna can help your body relax. You'll loose some "water weight," too, but this effect lasts only until you replenish the fluids you've lost sweating.
If you have high blood pressure or a heart problem, be sure to check with your physician before going to a sauna or steam room. The heat can cause circulatory changes, including an increased heart rate. Overall, however, the only real risk to a sauna or steam room is spending too much time sweating. You can faint from overheating and from dehydration. Be sure to drink lots of water before, during and after your sweat. And, while pregnant women should avoid soaking in hot tubs, there's no reason why they can't take saunas (as long as they're healthy).
If you're interested in buying a home sauna, I would recommend one that allows you to create steam by pouring water on heated rocks. Many electric saunas only produce dry air, which can irritate the upper respiratory tract.
In addition to the sauna's effects on the body, many people find that it increases energy levels, reduces stress, and promotes restful sleep. The Finns, who take their saunas seriously, follow the heat with a plunge into cold water. They've got the right idea - the cold water is remarkably refreshing. Despite your misgivings, I think if you go to a sauna with an open mind and a positive attitude, you'll find it both relaxing and invigorating. Enjoy!
Andrew Weil, M.D.
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I think if you are genuine , you are just either very lucky ..so far ..or just clutching at straws to convince yourself that this is working and you wont need dialysis in the end. Of course you are going to feel better after a sauna ..dont most people?
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is this the miracle I have been waiting for
where are saunas
and how long do I stay in them
and should I weigh before I go and after I get out
can I drink in the sauna and will I have to be naked and are there other people in the sauna
and will I pass out from heat
I guess I could just go sit outside
our heat index is over 118 degrees today
maybe Texas is a God given sauna
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Twirl,
I am sorry to say that sauna can never replace dialysis. There are NO tested results to proof that it actually works. (I am still trying to google it, maybe okaral can get us some info)
In fact I found a lot of warnings for people with high bloodpressure or any heart problems.
Bill suggests that you do this for a hour at a time. This according to some sites can be life threatening.
Please do not stop dialysis. But ask your doc about the sauna thing.
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As I understand it, in a sauna the body temperature is raised in order to make the body sweat which is the body’s way of cooling down. Does the heart rate increase as well, even though one is inactive? Obviously it makes the sweat glands work hard, but does it make any other part of the body (organs etc) work hard as well?
Because my health is fragile (Cerebral haemorrhages, CVA-stroke, blood-pressure controlled by anti-hypertensive tablets etc, ESRF), should I be careful about heating my body up to the level experienced in a sauna?
Because of possible complications in a conventional sauna, I have read in an old medical type book from 1900 that in the case of fragile people they can make their own home-sauna by wrapping themselves in a damp sheet of cotton, put over this a large sheet of cotton-towel and put underneath the kidney region on each side one hot-water bottle (not too hot for obvious reasons), under each calf one hot water-bottle, and another hot water-bottle on the stomach-region. Altogether 5 hot water-bottles. Then a duvet etc has to be put over the body to sweat as much as is comfortable. Afterwards, when they feel it was enough, they take a shower. This method was developed by Bilz and he describes this method very clearly in his book. Bilz is based on Kneipp and he developed this gentle home-sauna, or bed-sauna, for people like myself who are fragile because of their complicated health history.
Please feel free to give your opinions, much appreciated.
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Hey Glitter:
With all due respect your replay is coming out of fear and very little knowledge or facts.
You didn't dispute a single fact in my post. You just gave a general broadside based on fear.
Saunas are everywhere. Millions of people use them everyday. Are people dying from them?
If your already on dialysis I do not reccomend you stop dialysis when you start saunaing. I'm simple sharing my personal
journey with others.
And just because a lot of people aren't already doing doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Dialysis is one of the most profitable areas of big medicine. Do you think they have an interest in something
that costs 1/100th the cost.
With all due respect, you are saying that sauna replaces dialysis- which is dangerous bullshit.
I you have a dispute with anything I've said please give me the specific facts as to why
I'm wrong.
How about some facts to back up your claims?
April 2008
Saunas and heavy sweating do the same thing as dialysis. Everything that comes
out in urine also comes out in sweat. The skin is called the third kidney because it does
the same thing as the kidney.
Sweating CANNOT replace your kidneys..I see your at 40% function, so sweating probably does get rid of excess fluid for you- but you state that it replaces dialysis- which I think is a bullcrap, dangerous statement.
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Des .. i think Twirl was being just a bit sarcastic in her post ..lol.
I dont know who this guy is, but if all it took was a sauna to keep kidney failure away then millions of people would be doing it.
Whats it going to be next? A bubblebath for cancer?
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???It that incredible or what? It's really hard to belive that you can sweat it off in replace of dialysis treatment. I'm going to the closes gym with a sauna..How much do you weight Billy? I'm only weighting about 155 maybe extra with the fluid I carry. Otherwords, sweating my fluids for an hour will only make me lose the body fat that I have on and I assure you that I can not lose anymore than I have to put on. Does it count if you have a lot of body fat ? How about a skinny guy like me? Any alturnatilve will make going to dialysis be elimanated...Best of luck to you, but I'm still thinking I should do the dialysis treatment three times a day.
sincerely,
RivyHi Everyone:
As I said in my intro post I'm on a journey to use sauna & sweating to keep off dialysis permanently. Through my research I find out
that I would be able to get enough fluids out through the sauna. But I wasn't sure about getting out all the waste products in the blood.
I did have a hunch that as a persons kidneys decline more waste would start coming out through the sweat glands. In other words the dirtier the blood the
dirtier the sweat. I ran into an article on a condition called Uremic frost which is common in people with bum kidneys. Their sweat becomes so filled with waste that when it evaporates it leaves a crystalline frost on the skin made of waste from the blood. BINGO!!!!!!!!!! :bandance; The sweat glands do take over for the impaired kidneys in removing wastes from the body. How could they not! There's no mechanism to stop it from coming out. Therefore the right amount of saunaing cold do the same thing as dialysis.
I figure an hour or so a day will give you a full days worth of kidney function. Because it takes an hour to sweat out 2 liters of sweat which is the average amount a person urinates in a day. I going to assume enough blood waste will also come also.
So far it's working for me. I have no tell tall signs of kidney disease. Also the signs I did have have vanished.
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I never expected so much hostility for sharing my wonderful discoveries. But facts are facts. As you kidneys decline more waste starts coming out in your sweat.
Sweating in the sauna removes large quantities excess fluids and wastes from the body. That means sweating in the sauna does the same thing as dialysis. Does this mean that it's right for everyone, no. Each person has to makes his or her own journey. But as kidney failure suffers we we caught a break from nature, the skin is the third kidney and I'm using my third kidney.
I guess the pioneers always get the arrow! :Kit n Stik;
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Billybill, you are one hundred percent correct in stating that facts are facts. And one certain fact is that saunas cannot ever be a substitute for dialysis. That's a fact. If you were to make the decision to pursue only sauna treatments rather than dialysis you would simply die once your kidney function went low enough.
We ought never to let desperation or hope completely eclipse our ability to think rationally or research various claims. This is a ludicrous claim in my opinion and ought to be dismissed as such.
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I don't know if it is hostility or just a real concern for other peoples health. People can become desperate for a better quality of life. I think that the people who are posting "against" you have a genuine concern for the other people reading these posts. It is a fact that some alternative modes of treatment for various diseases and ailments over the years can have 3 outcomes. Some actually do help, some do absolutely nothing at all and others can be harmful even to the point of being fatal. The others posting are concerned that your sauna treatments could end up hurting others who take your mode of treatment as medical fact. So far the only article I found that discusses sweating and your skin as being a 3rd kidney is an author who is a photographer, Mikkel Aaland who does not have any medical background. If you truly believe that this is "for real". You should be more scientific about it. What is your current kidney function? You absolutely need to have labs done prior to and after your treatments to show that it is eliminating all the poisons that HD or PD eliminates. It may eliminate sodium but what does it do for your potassium levels? Please, please, please back up your claims with medical proof. I am not asking this to prove this to others. I am asking this as a genuine concern for your health period.
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"And one certain fact is that saunas cannot ever be a substitute for dialysis". How do you know "that saunas cannot ever be a substitute for dialysis."?
Give me real facts please. Not just a lecture about desperation.
The facts show me very clearly that saunaing dialysis done correctly does the very same thing as regular dialysis. Plus you can start sauna dialysis when you're in a pre dialysis stage. Are you saying I should not sauna for any hour every day and sweat out all my excess fluid and a lot of the waste in my blood? Are you saying it does not get rid of excess fluid? Are you saying it's not purifying my blood?
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Uremic frost
First described by Hirschsprung in 1865, uremic frost is rarely seen today because of early dialytic intervention. When the blood urea nitrogen level is adequately high (usually >250-300 mg/dL), the concentration of urea in sweat is increased greatly. Evaporation results in the deposition of urea crystals on the skin. Uremic frost is commonly found in the beard or on other parts of the face, neck, and trunk as fine white-to-yellow crystals that dissolve readily when challenged by a drop of water.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1094846-overview
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Im sorry but you either have shares in a sauna company or are in for a complete shock ! We are not a hostile site as we all have something in common and gladly share and help each other in any way we can . It will be interesting to see if in maybe months or possibly a year , you are still not doing dialysis . I would also like to say there is a lot more to it than 'sweating toxins' out of your body! How come there is only you that has found this miracle? Surely out of all the hundreds of members we have, a small % would also be using this miracle (i wont say cure) treatment? We are we all dragging ourselves off to dialysis?
Actually your claim to saunas proves nothing , i have just looked at your profile and you were only diagnosed a year ago. I and many others have lasted years from diagnosis to actually starting dialysis , so mebbe if we had taken saunas in that time ,we could also make your claims , but to be honest you have nothing to claim
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I'm sorry but you should not stop creative thinking. There would be no dialysis with out some creative and often incorrect procedure and thoughts in the past. The ideas of saunas might leaded to other ideas, etc. In other posts they claim that dialysis is no way to live and transplant is the only thing that works. I mean, don't give up dialysis for the sauna but don't come down on people for thinking outside the box.
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"And one certain fact is that saunas cannot ever be a substitute for dialysis". How do you know "that saunas cannot ever be a substitute for dialysis."?
Give me real facts please. Not just a lecture about desperation.
The facts show me very clearly that saunaing dialysis done correctly does the very same thing as regular dialysis. Plus you can start sauna dialysis when you're in a pre dialysis stage. Are you saying I should not sauna for any hour every day and sweat out all my excess fluid and a lot of the waste in my blood? Are you saying it does not get rid of excess fluid? Are you saying it's not purifying my blood?
My first guess would be this guy is a troll.
Despite your claim, an hour a day does not give you a full days worth of kidney function. Hell even 24 hours a day would not do that.
Also a large amounts of toxins are not removed by sweating. Toxins are sweated out more in dialysis patients but it is a far cry from that which is removed by dialysis.
Sweating doesnt replace dialysis as you try to claim and sweating out 2 liters does not equal dialysis or proper functioning kidneys
A sauna will let you sweat out excess fluids, however it does not cause you to sweat out a significant amount of toxins. Just as exercise will let you sweat out 2-3 liters of excess fluid, toxin removal via sweat is not enough to be a replacement for dialysis.
BTW I do own a sauna and yet still I am on dialysis.
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Did I read that Billybill was at 40% function? Most of us didn't even know we had kidney disease at 40%. We are not a negative site, but with thousands of members around the world, we have pretty much tried it all. There is a lot we can do to help our bodies, but there are also a lot of "snake oil" salesmen out there and we need to be cautious.
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I've long wondered about sauna therapy, not as a replacement for dialysis but as a co-treatment between dialysis sessions to help maintain the correct fluid balance in the body / ease the fluid restrictions. I've been keeping my eyes open for studies on it & would love to read about and possibly participate in any legitimate studies.
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i love the idea of using a sauna to cut some excess fluid, but a full hour in one sounds dangerous and foolish. Especially considering how dialysis is already hard on your heart
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I would check with my doctor before engaging in intensive sauna treatments.
As with everything else, moderation is key.
And as my husband always says, "If it seems too good to be true, it is."
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BillBill I hardly think saunas are going to do the job of your kidneys. if your theory was correct then would people with perfect kidneys have a problem in a sauna? I'm sorry, someone sold you a bridge and you fell for it hook line and sinker. We all hold on to false hopes sometime in our lives and I think this one is yours. Good luck with your theory but I don't think anyone else is buying it.
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I can remember doing so much research when Jenna was diagnosed - they said she had 25% function and would need a transplant or dialysis within 1 to 5 years. I looked into herbs, vitamins, touch therapy, acupuncture, kidney toxin removal remedies -- anything to prolong that time until her kidneys failed. Sadly I do not believe there's a magic bullet out there - not yet anyway. But I do like to hear new ideas. However successful you've been Billy with your sauna treatment, it's just one case, and there's no other evidence from other patients that I have read that backs up your individual experience. But I wish you well.
Just a note, I have read that PD patients should avoid saunas due to the risk of infection.
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Good luck to you. As YL said, most people here are honestly just concerned that readers won't try something they shouldn't. I guess some of us are just old cynics and the number of posts/emails etc you have sent somehow make us think of sales people. But hey, good luck with it if it works for you - but I'll be mighty irritated if I find out you do sell saunas!
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I would be interested to see an article on how long somebody lived using sauna therapy if their kidney's were not working at all. Personally I can not see any doctor recommending this type of treatment to any patient with severe kidney failure. I can see saunas or any sweating removing fluid but not toxins. I would want to see studies done and blood work results of people who used just sauna treatments and those who did dialysis treatments. If this was true and really worked why would so much money be spent on dialysis treatments and transplants???
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I doubt there is any scientific information on how long someone lived using sauna therapy instead of dialysis. The two case studies I saw on uremic frost stated that the individuals lived 2 days in one case and one week in the other. It seems from this limited data (in peer-reviewed medical journals) that once uremic frost appears, it is probably too late for any medical intervention to save the individual. I wouldn't consider this a gift in any respect.
I have no doubt that the skin can take over a small amount of function for the kidneys, but nothing close to dialysis. And 40% function? Please, I had that 20 years ago with my transplanted kidney. Saunas or no saunas, you could live a very long time with that sort of function if you are lucky.
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Just as a matter of interest - have other people received a PM from Billybill about this?
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Yes, I got one, replied to it, got another but I don't have anything more to say about the topic.
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Definitely starting to sound like a sauna salesman to me! The funny thing was, the pm was addressed to Paul so he didn't even look to see if I was female, and also didn't know me at all - i.e assumed I did haemo. It had the feel of a bulk message....I have a bad feeling about Billybill!
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Yes, I got a PM from Billybill
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If you are already on dialysis I do not recommend you stop dialysis when you start saunaing. I'm simple sharing my personal journey with others.
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I'm surprised you all aren't trying to get "Medicare" to pay for a Sauna in all your homes.
Do not Kill Bill! What is our largest organ? No, not that! It is our Skin!
Even if it does not take the place of dialysis it could really help with our dialysis struggles. Too much fluid.... thus cramping...aka SALT.
I've seriously thought that sweating has helped my regular dialysis results. Zach sweats through exercise. I'm lazy so a sauna sounds great to me.
In the summer I go sit in my HOT car for 5 minutes until the sweat is rolling off my face. Then I go have a nice 6oz glass of cold water for FREE! No dialysis restricted precious fluid. I call it cheating!
It is something to think about. I've already asked my Nephrologist about it 4 years ago. He WENT off on me and was blithering about "that is as stupid as dialysis through bowel movements". Well, hey, that gets rid of Phosphorus.
I think a Sauna is an aid to dialysis. I know my labs are great in the summer.
Keep us posted Bill. :waving;
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My husband also used sweating as an aid to drink more in summer- he used sauna suits- but you have to be careful, because of impaired kidney function you can upset the delicate balance of necessary salt in your body. You cant upset the electrolyte balance without impeding heart function. If you used it in moderation, with the clear understanding that it in NO WAY removes enough toxins to substitute dialysis, I do think it could benefit you. IF your DR says its okay for YOU. Like many others here pointed out-saunas can be damn dangerous for people with impaired health. This stuff just worries me so much- I would hate to see someone take advice that could hurt them, and I think before you post about something that could be potentially deadly, you should have irrefutable proof that its safe. There is always someone who will only read part of something and then try it 'to see if it works'
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Rerun ..i am a bit concerned that you say , you sit in your hot car for 5 mins till sweat runs down your face , then drink a 6 oz glass of water for free. How can it be for free? Ok so sweating isnt bad , but the fact is you cant measure it can you? What might seem a lot of sweat running down you might not even be an ounce to be honest.
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My hubby can drink a lot more when he sweats if he didn't he would dehydrate!!! In the summer he often has to have a drink before he hooks up to dialysis to have enough fluid on to be over his dry weight!!! We have found that if he is dehydrated his BUN and creatinine is higher!!!
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I have to laugh at the snake oil they try to get us to believe here. A suana! :rofl; :rofl; Maybe the Swiss had an idea with the saunas and cold pools plunges!
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More on saunas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna
Come join us in the IHD Sauna! :o
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Oh, what a relief. I also got a couple of PM's from billybill. I thought I was the only one and I was wondering why, when I am so new to this. Glad to hear some of you got them also.
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From wikipedia: (Thanks Zach)
Saunas can also be dangerous due to the risk of heat prostration or the even more serious hyperthermia. Children and older persons who have heart disease or seizure disorders or those who use alcohol or cocaine are especially vulnerable. Prolonged stay in a sauna may lead to loss of electrolyte from the body, the same as after rigorous exercise. Risks of dehydration leading to heat stroke in more sensitive individuals can occur and may be reduced by regular sipping of water or isotonic drinks, but not alcohol, during the sauna. Sauna bathing and heavy drinking of alcoholic beverages, and also sauna bathing during hangover phase can undoubtedly create real health risks.
Many of the sauna therapeutic trials used a regular schedule of at least 5 days a week and often daily for one to three months, then several times a week for extended periods. In some countries the local gymnasium is usually the closest and most convenient and some pool, major sport, or even resort complexes also contain a sauna. Therapeutic Sauna is often carried out in conjunction with physiotherapy or hydrotherapy, gentle exercises within the capability of the person without exacerbating symptoms.
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Rerun ..i am a bit concerned that you say , you sit in your hot car for 5 mins till sweat runs down your face , then drink a 6 oz glass of water for free. How can it be for free? Ok so sweating isnt bad , but the fact is you cant measure it can you? What might seem a lot of sweat running down you might not even be an ounce to be honest.
Don't worry, I weigh myself and can tell how much I lost. What is amazing is just how much fluid you do lose from just a little sweat.
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Wow! What a thread! This is what I get for missing IHD for a few days!!
Bill - you raise an interesting concept for sure. However your facts are just general statements - eg: that you sweat in a sauna. That sweating is a way for the body to release toxins. ergo releasing toxins by means of sweating in a sauna is a good thing. You've suggested you can lose 2litres in an hour of a sauna session(I noted the breaks for cold showers??). Well I have two responses to that. I used a sauna once a week for a year or so for an hour or so at a go (no breaks) on my dialysis "weekend" as a way to remove extra fluid. I would manage to sweat our around 600ml in an hour. No where NEAR 2lL. Of course I wouldn't have actually put 2L on of fluid, so that may just be related to being on dialysis... However I have heard from the dialysis nurses that they do not like to take more than 1l (1000ml) of fluid out/hour during a dialysis session because the stress on the body is too great and removing so much fluid is dangerous - so I would question the health aspects of sweating 2L in an hour. (Yes I know athletes would sweat out that and more, but that is a totally different situation IMHO).
The thing is that you comment about these 'facts" but do not back it up with specific tests or results. For example, it might mean more if you had measurements of weight pre- and post- sauna, backed up with lab test results again pre- and post- to back up the claim that for example, you lost Xl of excess fluid, and your Potassium levels went down by Y%.
If you were actually serious about your discovery you would present it in a scientific manner rather than just stating some general trusisms as facts to back your claim which could be dangerous in practice.
I am not disputing your idea in principle, but I for one would actually like to see more concrete facts backed up with some actual methodical tests and results. If you are so serious about this idea you should also get reputable medical researchers to take it up.
Zach: Looks like a 70's sauna to me!!!
I'd love to be in an IHD Sauna... specially with the women of IHD!!! :rofl; >:D :rofl;
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I haven't had a PM from Billybill. :waiting;
Maybe it's because I live in the UK and I'm thus too poor to afford a sauna...
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Wow Rich, You're so sharp. Why that's exactly what I would have said if I were smart enough...
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... or could be bothered being that polite ha ha (me, I mean)
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billyboy, please go away. this whole subject is starting to annoy me. so did god give me kidney failure? if so, he can have it back.
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Hello All:
Here's a great article that shows how the skin eliminates wastes products from the blood.
http://www.lknmedicalspa.com/blog/?p=94
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billybill... dont you think its time you gave up posting articles on this? At first i was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt , but now i think you are just posting to get certain members backs up and i think they have enough to contend with , without you rattling on to people about the benefit of saunas , which in their lifetimes is NEVER going to be a replacement for dialysis for them or an option to prevent dialysis. Hopefully the Moderators of this forum will just close your posts in the hope you will move on.
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Kickstart: We don't delete or censor posts. And unless they violate the rules, it's actually better to have an open discussion from members like you expressing their opinions about the content in a thread.
In this case, the info given is for Lyme disease, which is not related to dialysis, and I would not give it much credence.
There are members who are interested in sauna's. I agree, no one should consider that sauna's should be used instead of dialysis.
Billybill1: It might be wise to confine your posts to exploring ways to extend your time pre-dialysis. There's no proof that it will, but sharing your personal experience is what I would recommend if you want to be taken seriously by some members. The studies I have read only covered using the sauna in addition to dialysis.
A new thread does not need to be started.
Topic Merged - okarol/admin
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With every sauna purchased you will get 1, thats right folks, 1 case of Kinoki detox foot pads. Pretty soon dialysis will be a thing of the past.
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I note that Billy has not responded to my post nor provided anything more concrete to back up his claims than "you sweat out toxins in a sauna"... still waiting for something more substantial.....
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Oh Richard, forget the sauna. Just take your ladies to a hot tub.
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This is like asking is sweat the same as urine? The answer is no.
Sweating and healthy kidneys making urine do not serve the same function in the body.
The kidneys convert nitrogen waste into urea and they control other balances in the blood. Most of the urine is nitrogen waste but the debilitating effects of CKD are due to hypertension and a poor calcium/phosphorus balance.
Sweating serves a different function. Whilst some toxic waste can be lost through sweating, this is minor compared with that lost by urination. And the skin does not control the calcium/phosphorus balance. Sweating could help hypertension and thereby extend kidney function but only to the extent that it is counteracting poor sodium control.
I think the healthful effects of sauna are not analogous to kidney function. CKD should be taken seriously and treated. Regular blood tests should be used to monitor how treatment is going. If salt or fluid control isn't your goal then I don't think the sauna can help with the CKD.
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Oh Richard, forget the sauna. Just take your ladies to a hot tub.
yes please! Still waiting for even one of the IHD ladies to put her hand up though!! :rofl;
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:thumbup; - there isn't a hand up icon, will this do?. A hot tub in Aus sounds right up my street, it may be winter there but our summer here in the UK is rain, rain and more rain!!
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Sure Rose you'd be welcome in my hot tub :) Now can you make it rain at Lords for the next two days? that would be great !!! :rofl;
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:rofl; :rofl;
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Sure Rose you'd be welcome in my hot tub :) Now can you make it rain at Lords for the next two days? that would be great !!! :rofl;
There is no chance anyone will know what you're talking about Richard! Did you enjoy the rugby Saturday night heh heh heh
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That is so true. And yet I rarely know what Richard is talking about.
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Sure Rose you'd be welcome in my hot tub :) Now can you make it rain at Lords for the next two days? that would be great !!! :rofl;
There is no chance anyone will know what you're talking about Richard! Did you enjoy the rugby Saturday night heh heh heh
lol! Rose knew, but she's an English Rose (oooh just the sort I like ;) ).... >:D
Umm Rugby? Not a sport I understand or get into. Not a fan of men sniffing other men's backsides and all that... so no have no idea what went on on Saturday night or if I should care????
Dan (and others) for your information I was referring to the age old sport of Cricket - not something that one would play in a Sauna incidently :rofl; Lord's is the cricket ground in London where England and Australia are currently playing a "test match" in a traditional series known as "the ashes" (in reference to the small urn that is the symbolic "prize" of the series). More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ashes
Anyway England set Australia a target of 522 runs to win with 2 days - a feat never before reached by any side in the world. The closest I think was 418. Anyway after 1 day, we've lost half our batsment(5) with the score on 5-313. So we need 209 to win in 1 day, and England need to get 5 more wickets(batsmen out). If we can pull it off it would almost top sitting in a spa with rose!!! :yahoo;
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:rofl;
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Just thought you'd like to know that it's a bright sunny morning here (7 a.m.), just right for cricket :rofl; looks like the ashes may be coming our way!
Not the sort of day you'd want to be in a sauna, but a nice hot tub in the garden would go down a treat!!
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Just thought you'd like to know that it's a bright sunny morning here (7 a.m.), just right for cricket :rofl; looks like the ashes may be coming our way!
Not the sort of day you'd want to be in a sauna, but a nice hot tub in the garden would go down a treat!!
One match does not the series make. We will see.
oh and you owe me Rose. As soon as I am transplanted I am headed your way!! WATCH OUT!!!! :rofl;
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One match does not the series make.
Well maybe not but it was a big win for us today :yahoo;
oh and you owe me Rose. As soon as I am transplanted I am headed your way!! WATCH OUT!!!! :rofl;
Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to know you'd got your transplant, let me know and I'll book us both into the nearest sauna/spa/jacuzzi :rofl;
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It's been over 4 years since I started my journey on using sauna to avoid dialysis. Doctors said I would be on dialysis over 2 years ago. I can currently report no symptoms of kidney disease. I'm living as normal life by dialysing myself thru my sweat glands. I also found a probiotic that helps http://www.kibowbiotech.com/probiotics-and-kidney-health.html. Check out uremic frost http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Uremic+Frost
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Hi billybill. I'm intrested but I have one question. If this was the case then why are no othe doctors or anyone from medical science world promoting this whn they could be saving so much money through medical care and makeing so many peoples life more better. You could say tht doctors or dialysis company would like to make money tht is the reason why this has not come out but don't u think tht someone who is rich and on dialysis would have researched it and release the greatness of it? Please reply. Thank u
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It's been over 4 years since I started my journey on using sauna to avoid dialysis. Doctors said I would be on dialysis over 2 years ago. I can currently report no symptoms of kidney disease. I'm living as normal life by dialysing myself thru my sweat glands. I also found a probiotic that helps http://www.kibowbiotech.com/probiotics-and-kidney-health.html. Check out uremic frost http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Uremic+Frost
As much as I'd like to jump on this I still have to be skeptical. Renadyl, the probiotic you speak of, isn't FDA regulated. It could be a sugar pill for all we know. The sauna treatment makes sense, but I don't know if it would change those who already got to the point of dialysis. Plus, how would one cover expenses to go to a sauna everyday for as long as you have? I know one can be built in the comfort of the home, but I couldn't afford that. If it's truly working for you then by all means keep doing what your doing I'm not trying to bad mouth your process just trying to understand a little more. Do you keep yourself on a strict renal diet? Do you take phosphorus binders or any kind of medications?
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It's been over 4 years since I started my journey on using sauna to avoid dialysis. Doctors said I would be on dialysis over 2 years ago. I can currently report no symptoms of kidney disease. I'm living as normal life by dialysing myself thru my sweat glands. I also found a probiotic that helps http://www.kibowbiotech.com/probiotics-and-kidney-health.html. Check out uremic frost http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Uremic+Frost
Why, with 40% function 3 years ago when you were posting all of this on IHD initially, would your nephrologist say that you would need dialysis within a year? What is the cause of your CKD? Staying off dialysis for four years with 40% kidney function is not the least bit remarkable.
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It's been over 4 years since I started my journey on using sauna to avoid dialysis. Doctors said I would be on dialysis over 2 years ago. I can currently report no symptoms of kidney disease. I'm living as normal life by dialysing myself thru my sweat glands. I also found a probiotic that helps [link dead] Check out uremic frost http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Uremic+Frost
Edited: This is looking like an advertisement for a specific website. Your link did not work and it has been removed.
okarol/admin
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This is why sweating can not clear your blood of waste products. The concentration of nitrogenous waste in your sweat will never exceed the concentration of nitrogenous waste in your blood. If your sweat has significantly less waste than your bloodstream you are actually concentrating your BUN and getting more uremic. Kidneys have evolved to selectively separate the chemical components of blood and discard whatever is excessive. The kidney is a master of concentrating waste. Sweat glands evolved to keep the body cool by secreting fluid. Performing dialysis by sweating is like baking a cake with a jackhammer.
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beautifully said mogee :2thumbsup;
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Performing dialysis by sweating is like baking a cake with a jackhammer.
:rofl; Mogee gets the gold star for best metaphor of the week!
Seriously, sweating can help with fluid gains - I certainly used that technique, even if I didn't have access to a sauna. I know toxins will leach out with the sweat - the nasty smell in my clothes that wouldn't wash out got worse the lower my kidney function. But it's not a replacement kidney, or the cure for kidney disease would be "Move South."
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:rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; That metaphor was hilarious.
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ok, now I haven't read all of the comments, but here is a portion of what Dr. Weil (who, incidentally, is reputed by some to be a quack, but whatever) says to potential sauna users:
"If you have high blood pressure or a heart problem, be sure to check with your physician before going to a sauna or steam room. The heat can cause circulatory changes, including an increased heart rate. Overall, however, the only real risk to a sauna or steam room is spending too much time sweating. You can faint from overheating and from dehydration. Be sure to drink lots of water before, during and after your sweat. And, while pregnant women should avoid soaking in hot tubs, there's no reason why they can't take saunas (as long as they're healthy)."
I feel super sick when I sweat a lot. I get dehydrated and messed up. It's hard to imagine that the sauna would help me. Also, he says you lose water weight WHICH YOU REPLENISH BY DRINKING WATER. You potential sauna users with little to no renal function, according to Dr. Weil, are supposed to drink plenty before, during and after. So, I think he is telling people with some minor to moderate liver and kidney problems that this is good, but I thinking patients who are watching their fluid and electrolytes carefully should be cautioned against going without a physician's permission.
Were you doing anything else that might ha e powered your creatinine a month after starting the sauna? Were you sick bandit was elevated? Dehydrated?
Perhaps it is something we could do that lowers blood pressure and ride the body of some toxins, but if God meant us to sweat it out only, he wouldn't have made kid yes in the first place, don't you think?
and don't you think that back in the day before Dialysis they might have tried this stuff? I suspect they did, but since it DIDN'T WORK VERY WELL AND PEOPLE DIED, they came up with the artificial kidney (actually, I think they did PEon dogs first, but I'd have to look that up).
:'( I am scared you are killing yourself, but also suspicious that you're not as sick as you say, like that stop the madness lady who was pregnant and not fat, Just sayin...
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I'm no medical professional and I really just follow what Western Medicine says because that has been beat into my head and its easiest to defend but we really must ask ourselves some serious questions:
If medicine makes money for doctors, whose best interest will they always act upon.
Is the suggestion of something holistic really ludicrous or is it just ludicrous because Western Medicine has told us it is?
If pills are not cures, what are they--maskers of symptoms?
Do we really just rely on mainstream medical publications for information while we know they are heavily influenced by funders?
Isn't the efficacy and safety of all medical treatments backed-up by medical literature, until many people are harmed?
Here, we know some things for sure: More dialysis is better. Slower dialysis is better. However, how successful has the vast majority of patients been in getting a doctor to prescribe this.
I say all that to say: You are your biggest helper. Be willing to try something different or--gasp--unconventional.
K
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Here, we know some things for sure: More dialysis is better. Slower dialysis is better. However, how successful has the vast majority of patients been in getting a doctor to prescribe this.
The problem is not so much about getting the prescription from a doctor, but more likely getting insurance to pay for it if they don't want to.
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From what I can see, insurance will. Pay for slower is better (Medicare pays for it). It is the doctors that won't authorize, probably because it allows them to pocket less from the bundle. I am on SDHD, my friend is on nocturnal. My doctor (who happens to be the medical director of my clinic) won't allow me to switch to nocturnal. We compared Medicate codes, both were the same, hence the dialysis units are getting paid the same amount of money.
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My doctor (who happens to be the medical director of my clinic) won't allow me to switch to nocturnal.
EXCUSE ME?
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From what I can see, insurance will. Pay for slower is better (Medicare pays for it). It is the doctors that won't authorize, probably because it allows them to pocket less from the bundle. I am on SDHD, my friend is on nocturnal. My doctor (who happens to be the medical director of my clinic) won't allow me to switch to nocturnal. We compared Medicate codes, both were the same, hence the dialysis units are getting paid the same amount of money.
It's always a conflict of interest when the doctor who owns the clinic is the prescribing physician. That's why we have Jenna seeing an independent nephrologist once a month, even on top of the visit from the in-center neph.
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Show us some before and after chem panels if you wish to be taken seriously.
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Desert Dancer, I am not going to be with this neph. A lot longer. I have only stuck with him for so long because he kept stringing me along for months saying that they were thinking about it, and each month coming up with yet another excuse. I have zero respect for the money-grabbing bas**** and am currently in discussion with another neph. Who freely admits that although he wants to get a home program going which includes nocturnal, doesn't know. Much and will p rob ably be asking me for advice. People that I know who go to him say that he's a great nephrologist so I am looking forward to working with him.
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Uremic frost is a sign of renal failure, no gift from God. It can preceed coma and death - google NEMJ (New England Journal of Medicine) for some case studies. Or just google uremic frost.
Also, dehydration can cause acute kidney failure. I would be very careful about suggesting that anyone with CKD spend any extended period of time in a sauna. Even one that looks as appealing as Zach's.
Anne