I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Dialysis Discussion => Dialysis: General Discussion => Topic started by: twirl on January 09, 2009, 10:18:37 AM
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as of this coming Monday we will get no more free coffee at dialysis
we can not pay for it either
we get nothing
maybe ice, if the tech is in the mood - no guarantees on that
we can not bring in any snacks or foods to eat during dialysis
nothing
if caught --- we will be disconnected and sent home
we are only allowed to bring in water to drink and ice
I guess next they will tell us no blankets
one older lady brings in a health bar and a mineral drink for her breakfast------- no more
and she is concerned b/c she is a diabetic
darn it, I am going to miss my fruit cup
in bold letters
NO MORE COFFEE
and one of the patients just gave the unit a free new coffee maker
I guess the joke is on her
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WTH!!
I would, I don't know besides being mad, complain, and defy them.
As a diabetic, we have somewhat of a set time to eat and take meds, so not eating could send us to the ER or worse which could make them liable for not allowing her to have anything.
She shouldn't have to reschedule her medication and eating time around them. The usual diet for a diabetic is breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, dinner, snack. If she even ate and took her meds at 5 am, she would still need to have a snack there.
Doctors need to get involved and chew this place out.
If you can't have food, neither can they and that means in their breakroom, in their coaty, desk, and not to mention COFFEE when they come in!
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pathectic truly.
Do they know without patients they would have no job??
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Who runs your unit twirl (what company?)
I'd like to send them a letter.
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I'm right there with Karol...I too would write a letter!
I'm not on D, but as someone who recently was blessed
a new kidney AND diabetes, this whole eating on schedule
thing is damned important!
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what company? I'm also ready to send a letter. Are you sure they are not telling you not to eat if you feel sick? That is OK, but not "gestapo" dialysis. That's rediculous.
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Perhaps we could put together a petition/letter and any of us here who'd like to could print it off, sign it and send it to the company also. I'd be happy to add my voice to a protest about this ridiculous rule.
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To me, it is amazing that you have been getting
coffee right along till now.
At my hubby's unit, they get NOTHING Never did,
and that includes ice.
The patient is also responsible for providing their own
Sureseals
Anne
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I get up at 4:15am to be at dialysis on time
that means I will be eating very early and by 10:30 I will be starving ( this would be my leave the unit time after holding and all)
dialysis makes me so hungry
I usually eat a sandwhich and a piece of fruit about 8:30
we are welcome to go eat in the lobby so I guess at 8:30 I will request to be unhooked so I can go eat a snack in the lobby
my company is Davita
I have no problems with bringing my own things and some days I have to be on liquids and jello is considered a liquid
I think I will bring jello and tell them I am eating it so kick me out if you need too
when I get that hungry I get so sick at my stomach
and I do not eat late the night before dialysis
it is not good to eat too late in the evening
I am really dreading this
being so hungry - that last hour crawls by
first they stopped letting us sit by friends and now they are taking away our snacks
I am concerned about the teachers and people who work all day and then come for the third shift and can not eat until
after 8 or 9
I saw the techs carrying their food from the hospital cafeteria to eat in their lounge today
this sucks
thanks for your help
as soon as you get friendly with someone in a chair by you and you start talking---- they separate you
I was told dialysis is not a place to socialize and meet friends
DAVITA SUCKS
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when I first started dialysis my doc told me all the things I could do on dialysis and eating was one of them
- he was talking me into starting without being so fearful
- he does not work on Fridays but I am calling his office Monday to remind him what I was told
- the office manager told us it is to stop bugs and someone chocked---- someone --- who I asked and was told --- someone you do not know--- could be someone in New York for I know
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Twirl, I am sorry about this. :cuddle;
It really does seem to be ridiculous and unfair, especially for the diabetic patients. I think everyone should get together with the manager and the medical director so that the situation can be discussed and they can explain the situation.
Including travel time to the center, waiting time before and after treatment, actual treatment time, and then travel time back home, that is a very long period to go without food. I don't understand it.
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Yeah, choking is a remote possibility! :banghead;
Teach them the Heimlich Maneuver!
:puke;
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I've heard of food being discouraged due to the choking hazard, but never banned. Who do they think they're treating? 5 year olds? As for the drinks being brought by techs, the only time I was ever brought anything to drink was water when my BP was too low.
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Twirl, this is NOT a Davita policy. This sounds like the FA just has a control issue. If you can PM me the name of your clinic, I can look into it for you. The only time we don't let people eat is if the BP is really low. Eating will cause the BP to drop while on Dialysis, so if it is already a problem, then we discourage food until it comes up. Otherwise, who cares!!! :flower;
EDITED: Fixed bold error-kitkatz,Moderator
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I can't believe that a dialysis unit would tell you you can't bring your own food to eat. As for choking that can happen anywhere!! Hubby always had a snack when he was on dialysis. It helped to pass the time. First when he started the unit used to provide muffins and pop but after a year or so they stopped that. It was no big deal for hubby he always took his own drink and snack anyway. Kick up hell!! Eat anyway and if they unhook you charge them with attempted murder LOL!!!
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Our unit has been no food or drink policy for over seven years and the diabetics here never have had a problem.
I would say get used to it. More and more units and going this direction and it is even being pushed by Medicare now last I heard.
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Our unit has been no food or drink policy for over seven years and the diabetics here never have had a problem.
I would say get used to it. More and more units and going this direction and it is even being pushed by Medicare now last I heard.
I don't think most units are going this direction. It would be interesting to find out.
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Our unit has been no food or drink policy for over seven years and the diabetics here never have had a problem.
I would say get used to it. More and more units and going this direction and it is even being pushed by Medicare now last I heard.
This is true. But, 20 years ago they "served" us lunch on trays during dialysis. The reason people choke now is because they are sneaking it. They don't want to deal with the mess if someone pukes or spills their drink. I think it is medical abuse. I wish someone would take them to court over it. There is NO medical reason you can't have a snack on dialysis.
It gives me something to do that I enjoy. It takes up time. I hate being on dialysis and hungry. If you eat a big meal and then go on dialysis it messes with your dry weight.
This is just total control because we are nothing but mice in their workshop making them money. Now they are not letting the mice eat.
I think if enough people kept eating they could NOT enforce it. What are they going to do arrest you? Unhook you and make you go home? Then their numbers would look bad and Medicare would not pay them. Hmmmm DaVita better think about this a little more.
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What should I ask about a dialysis center before choosing one?
Each dialysis clinic is a little different. Policies and practices can even vary at different dialysis center locations in the same company. Some dialysis facilities will schedule treatments around your job or family obligations, while others will not. Some allow patients to eat during dialysis, while others do not. Some centers have internet access, patient education and exercise programs, and some don’t. You may want to write up a list of questions to take with you when you visit centers near you before making a choice.
From Davita's website http://www.davita.com/dialysis/the-basics/a/46
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One of the hardest aspects of dialysis is the significant loss control over our own lives. Loss of the spontaneity to travel, loss of the freedom to eat the foods we choose, loss (for many) of the ability to do work of our choice and so on. To remove the control over when we eat our limited diet choices feels cruel and quite unnecessary to me. There are cases in which eating during dialysis is contraindicated for medical reasons but that is not the case for all patients and to have a one-rule-fits-all approach, is to totally ignore the necessity for individualized care. I find that completely unacceptable and as a person who insists on maintaining control over every aspect of my care that I possibly can, I would refuse to participate in this infantilizing, levelling approach. I completely agree with Rerun that this idiotic "rule" has less to do with good medicine than it does with convenience for staff. People in hospitals are fed even though they sometimes make an awful mess because they are ill. We continue to feed babies even though the little creatures insist on spitting up and creating a ton of laundry.
When I mention to the nurses at my clinic, some of the things that I hear about on this forum, they are appalled and find it cruel and inhumane. It is rubbish and we ought not to get used to it. We have enough things that we must adjust to with this illness without having to accept the unnecessary or the dogmatic. If there are medical reasons that make it not a good idea for me to eat on D that is when I will get used to it and not a moment before. I will also say that I think it is each patient's responsibility NOT to choose foods to eat on the machine that would be disturbing or offensive (strong odors for example) to fellow-patients but that is an entirely different matter. I would also say that if I couldn't eat in my unit I'd be really upset if the staff was eating in there and I'd write letters about it until my fingers fell off. Get used to it indeed!!!!
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Our unit has been no food or drink policy for over seven years and the diabetics here never have had a problem.
This maybe due to the time slot you are in. Other factors are type of diabetes and methods of controlling it. With my diabetes I always had to carry food because I could not feel a low blood sugar attack (hypoglycemia) come on, which lead to other problems. And if I have to go to a unit that would kick me out because I had to eat something, then medical malpractice comes to mind. Not going to let someone dictate how they want my life run when they feel it's convenient for them. Hypo and Hyperglycemia are never planned for a certain time to occur.
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Again, this is not a Davita policy. This is a control issue.
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Nursewratchet, you should have told me I had a mis spelled word. :rofl;
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Twirl does not want to get used to it.
She wants a snack
It is her right to have snack.
My God, she is a grown woman!
Who has the ability to think and eat for herself whenever and however she wants to.
God God Davita clinic, Grow up!
I would write a letter to the director stating how you feel deprived and abused with this new policy.
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Nursewratchet, you should have told me I had a mis spelled word. :rofl;
I'm too tired to have noticed!!! :rofl;
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I know why, you were up real early posting here then you were at work dealing with an idiot husband.
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This is true. But, 20 years ago they "served" us lunch on trays during dialysis. The reason people choke now is because they are sneaking it. They don't want to deal with the mess if someone pukes or spills their drink. I think it is medical abuse. I wish someone would take them to court over it. There is NO medical reason you can't have a snack on dialysis.
Sorry gonna disagree with you on this one......
If someone eats while in dialysis and then pukes it up, I say pull their ass off the machine and make them clean it up themselves. Same goes if they spill a drink while on the machine.
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I can agree with you on that, they should clean up their own mess for the most part.
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When I went in center at RAI the beginning of Nov, people were eating muffins etc and the week before Christmas a letter was handed to each person saying NO eating or drinking or also unhook and home. Today I didn't eat at all before I went to D and then started to passout after D due to hunger and the charge nurse said bring a snack next time....make up your minds what you want the prisoners to do.
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Think the charge nurse is more in tune with patients than the bean counters who sent the rule out.
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This is true. But, 20 years ago they "served" us lunch on trays during dialysis. The reason people choke now is because they are sneaking it. They don't want to deal with the mess if someone pukes or spills their drink. I think it is medical abuse. I wish someone would take them to court over it. There is NO medical reason you can't have a snack on dialysis.
Sorry gonna disagree with you on this one......
If someone eats while in dialysis and then pukes it up, I say pull their ass off the machine and make them clean it up themselves. Same goes if they spill a drink while on the machine.
OMG
Doesn't sound very caring. :Kit n Stik;
6 hours without food or water - are you for real :urcrazy;
I thought Dialysis was a medical procedure where you tried to make the patient as comfortable as possible. :o
Thank goodness here in the top end we don't have anything like this attitude or protocol
Dad's renal unit cooks food for the patients - three different menus for the patient to choose
The nurses have insisted on numerous occassions that Dad had to eat and drink whilst on dx machine
I would be furious if I had to clean up my vomit or mess whilst I am trying to live with no bloody kidneys
I would be :Kit n Stik; the roof if this happened to my father
WTF
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Wow jessup, that would be a nice place to have dialysis. Probably to costly to do here due to all the regulations and health codes.
I hope they have coffee there though. ;D That woul be the dialysis center I would want to go to if i went on a trip and needed dialysis (again).
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Sorry gonna disagree with you on this one......
If someone eats while in dialysis and then pukes it up, I say pull their ass off the machine and make them clean it up themselves. Same goes if they spill a drink while on the machine.
just curious, when your elderly and doing dialysis, maybe they should pull your ass off the machine put you on all fours and clean the mess up
dialysis staff get paid for the good and the bad of the job,
EDITED: Quote Error corrected - Bajanne, Moderator
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Rather clean up vomit than what come out the other end that happened at my center a few times and they weren't eating.
If you spil some coffee or some food, clean it up afterwards, but if it is a large spill, then let someone know to avoid a saftey hazard
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Sorry gonna disagree with you on this one......
If someone eats while in dialysis and then pukes it up, I say pull their ass off the machine and make them clean it up themselves. Same goes if they spill a drink while on the machine.
I don't understand this view. I'm also happy that no nurses I know subscribe to it. There are many causes for a person vomiting on D, including medications, and the idea that a "patient" should clean up is absurd. If it becomes clear that the cause of the vomiting is eating on the machine then it is a medical issue and must be dealt with but not by having the patient clean up after being sick. I can't imagine many patients who would continue to routinely vomit on themselves if it could be avoided by not eating. In the case of such a person I would suspect mental health issues and eating on the machine would be the least of the clinic's concerns. I don't expect to mop the floor either if I spill some blood on it. Having said that, I also think that patients should reasonably be expected, under normal circumstances, to tidy up their stations after a run, not leaving garbage or juice or crumbs on chairs or whatever because that is only polite, common courtesy and the consideration of others is always a good thing.
Common sense seems so uncommon, it's frankly a bit frightening.
EDITED: Quote Error corrected - Bajanne, Moderator
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I'm talking common courtesy about the messes one should clean up, just to be clear on that. Not like Big Sky's view.
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Not all centers are created equal.
Poor Jenna, right after she returned to incenter from her bladder augmentation she had an incident. She had been given stool softeners and other stuff to unblock her after being on pain meds for 10 days, but nothing seemed to work. Suddenly, halfway during dialysis, everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, let loose! She was mortified! The head nurse called and asked me to bring her some clothes. They threw a screen up around her, cleaned her up pretty well, wrapped her in a sheet and escorted her to the restroom, where I finished helping her clean up. By the time she came out they had her chair scrubbed and were ready to hook her back up. They handled the situation so efficiently and treated her with such compassion and respect, I will never forget that.
:clap;
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Perhaps we could put together a petition/letter and any of us here who'd like to could print it off, sign it and send it to the company also. I'd be happy to add my voice to a protest about this ridiculous rule.
Well said! Someone can post it and anyone who ereads it on here can copy it to print and sen it in. Just think how many that could be just from the IHD family.
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as soon as you get friendly with someone in a chair by you and you start talking---- they separate you
I was told dialysis is not a place to socialize and meet friends
DAVITA SUCKS
This is what goes on at Davita ? Boy I'm sure glad I got out of there after about a month there and got onto PD. Besides being very depressing I just could not take it any longer. :stressed;
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Good grief! This is insane... what a stupid policy of SOMEONE'S to enforce.
We don't get cooked meals like jessup's dad's unit, but we do get sandwiches and tea/coffee/ice/water/cordial(like kool-aid for the US readers) and they are great. Heck sometimes I might shout them a coffee from the cafe downstairs and they'll get any patients one who wants one (better than the instant muck). I also have a jar of sweets I keep on my table and half the staff like to eat some during the session (I have no problem with this.. that's what they are for.. oh and for raising my BP near the end of a session of I need it :) ).
Stupid anti-patient policies... that's ridiculous and I would be going to the company - at a more senior level than the local boobs who came up with this insulting policy and try to get something changed.
:Kit n Stik;
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thanks all
I always pick up whatever I need to before I leave dialysis
the only time I puked on the floor was when I asked for something to throw up in and 20 minutes later the tech gave me a bucket--- a little too late
almost happened once when I had diarrhea ---- I am not asking to get off to go smoke a joint in the bathroom or anything ----- I had to go
I am worried about the last hour when I get so hungry and so sick at my tummy --- I can see me running out of dialysis eating the first thing that comes along-------
I am not going to feel like driving home when I get so nauseated--
and sometimes I do not leave at 10:30 it came be 11 am depends on which tech takes me off
I run 6am to 10 am and have left as late as 11:30 you know, it depends and several patients get sick there and go off to the er and they should come before me but if I am starving I will not be happy
we are allowed to eat in the lobby
so I guess I will request to get off long enough to eat 1/2 a sandwhich and a few grapes
I thought about calling my nep doc and asking for a note stating I need a snack
but then he owns the place
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I get so vomitty when I get that hungry
sorry I wish I had some wine with this cheese or whatever the expression is
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Twirl, I am sorry you have to deal with this nonsense.
Just as an FYI, In the state of New Jersey, no food is allowed in the treatment area of any dialysis center. (This is a Department of Health Rule.) When I was in the hospital getting dialysis, this caused some scheduling fun as I had to eat before or after treatments. Both the hospital and outpatient dialysis center I used provided free coffee, milk, juice, ice water or soda on demand.
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as soon as you get friendly with someone in a chair by you and you start talking---- they separate you
I was told dialysis is not a place to socialize and meet friends
DAVITA SUCKS
This is what goes on at Davita ? Boy I'm sure glad I got out of there after about a month there and got onto PD. Besides being very depressing I just could not take it any longer. :stressed;
Oh I just had to comment on this one too.
What on earth???
I bet if you talk to any social worker or neph they will comment how one thing that dialysis and ESRD does is it tends to isolate people either dealing with their illness or because they have to do dialysis etc and that one important positive factor of doing dialysis in center is the social aspect because you do get out and see others and COMMUNICATE. I remember at an infor session I went to they talked about this and said it was very important.
Heck in my unit the nurses often make a point of stopping by and chatting to us (those of us who are able/interested) and specially for those of us that are regular long term patients who the staff get to know (and we get to know them) it's just natural to discuss families or interests or whatever.
I wonder how Davita - or those with this particular dumb policy - would deal with the old Greek men in my unit who yell at eachother in greek for their entire sessions... and it doesn't matter where in the unit they are! :rofl;
No we don't go to make friends but often it turns out that some of the staff and other patients who we may see more than some of our own families can wind up being more friends. I know I had at least one lovely nurse say to me in the past that when I get a transplant and hopefully leave the unit that I'd visit with them still and stay in touch - at the pub at least!!! :)
I suppose for some it is a numbers game.. get 'em in, hook 'em up, shut them up, get them out... least fuss or annoyance. It is a pity medicine is treated that way by some. I mean I think sometimes they forget that dialysis keeps us alive while we deal with a terminal disease! We're not there for kicks!
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as soon as you get friendly with someone in a chair by you and you start talking---- they separate you
I was told dialysis is not a place to socialize and meet friends
DAVITA SUCKS
This is what goes on at Davita ? Boy I'm sure glad I got out of there after about a month there and got onto PD. Besides being very depressing I just could not take it any longer. :stressed;
My center is a Davita center. It is NOTHING like this. Please don't put Davita's name on a center who, it sounds like may have a control freak for an FA.
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One of the hardest aspects of dialysis is the significant loss control over our own lives. Loss of the spontaneity to travel, loss of the freedom to eat the foods we choose, loss (for many) of the ability to do work of our choice and so on. To remove the control over when we eat our limited diet choices feels cruel and quite unnecessary to me. There are cases in which eating during dialysis is contraindicated for medical reasons but that is not the case for all patients and to have a one-rule-fits-all approach, is to totally ignore the necessity for individualized care. I find that completely unacceptable and as a person who insists on maintaining control over every aspect of my care that I possibly can, I would refuse to participate in this infantilizing, levelling approach. I completely agree with Rerun that this idiotic "rule" has less to do with good medicine than it does with convenience for staff. People in hospitals are fed even though they sometimes make an awful mess because they are ill. We continue to feed babies even though the little creatures insist on spitting up and creating a ton of laundry.
When I mention to the nurses at my clinic, some of the things that I hear about on this forum, they are appalled and find it cruel and inhumane. It is rubbish and we ought not to get used to it. We have enough things that we must adjust to with this illness without having to accept the unnecessary or the dogmatic. If there are medical reasons that make it not a good idea for me to eat on D that is when I will get used to it and not a moment before. I will also say that I think it is each patient's responsibility NOT to choose foods to eat on the machine that would be disturbing or offensive (strong odors for example) to fellow-patients but that is an entirely different matter. I would also say that if I couldn't eat in my unit I'd be really upset if the staff was eating in there and I'd write letters about it until my fingers fell off. Get used to it indeed!!!!
Great post Gail. :waving;
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as soon as you get friendly with someone in a chair by you and you start talking---- they separate you
I was told dialysis is not a place to socialize and meet friends
DAVITA SUCKS
This is what goes on at Davita ? Boy I'm sure glad I got out of there after about a month there and got onto PD. Besides being very depressing I just could not take it any longer. :stressed;
My center is a Davita center. It is NOTHING like this. Please don't put Davita's name on a center who, it sounds like may have a control freak for an FA.
Davita would have a better reputation if all the centers were run like yours NurseW, but sadly that is not the case. I would like to see more uniformity in the operations of Davita clinics, so the patient could expect quality of care rather being at the mercy of a franchise that does not give optimal care and comfort to dialysis patients.
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Now remember not all Davita centers are the same. I was worried when I went over to Davita to do nocturnal. However I have been treated with respect by the staff. They tease me, but it is within limits. I asled them before I started about eating food. They said "it is dinner time for most folks. You can bring what you need to eat." I usually bring a cut up apple, pretzels, string cheese, and a cup of ice.
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OMG
Doesn't sound very caring. :Kit n Stik;
6 hours without food or water - are you for real :urcrazy;
I thought Dialysis was a medical procedure where you tried to make the patient as comfortable as possible. :o
Thank goodness here in the top end we don't have anything like this attitude or protocol
Dad's renal unit cooks food for the patients - three different menus for the patient to choose
The nurses have insisted on numerous occassions that Dad had to eat and drink whilst on dx machine
I would be furious if I had to clean up my vomit or mess whilst I am trying to live with no bloody kidneys
I would be :Kit n Stik; the roof if this happened to my father
WTF
Please, 6 hours without food or water is nothing. Some call that the time from breakfast to lunch, the time from lunch to dinner and only a fraction of the time from dinner until breakfast the next morning.
People are there for medical treatment, its not a freaking drive through or a restaurant.
The nurses are their to provide that treatment and people are their to receive that treatment. People are not there to have their treatment delayed because the nurses to save some twit because that person decided they needed to eat and now are choking or they have aspirated when throwing up or from passing out.
Not to mention is inconsiderate of those that are there for that professional medical treatment and not their to shovel food down their gullet or smell something rank the person next to them is eating nor smell them throwing up chinese food.
just curious, when your elderly and doing dialysis, maybe they should pull your ass off the machine put you on all fours and clean the mess up
dialysios staff get paid for the good and the bad of the job,
Better yet if I decided I needed to shovel food down my gullet during those short 6 hours since the last meal and I threw it back up I would personally take some responsibility and tell them to pull my ass off the machine so I could clean it up.
Getting sick is one thing, but doing something knowing you may get sick and deciding to shovel food down your gullet anyway and getting sick is quite another.
I don't understand this view. I'm also happy that no nurses I know subscribe to it. There are many causes for a person vomiting on D, including medications, and the idea that a "patient" should clean up is absurd.
Common sense seems so uncommon, it's frankly a bit frightening.
A person getting sick is one thing, but in a situation where one may get sick they decide to compound it by feeling that need to eat first is quite another and I and shocked you are not able to differentiate between them.
If it becomes clear that the cause of the vomiting is eating on the machine then it is a medical issue and must be dealt with but not by having the patient clean up after being sick. I can't imagine many patients who would continue to routinely vomit on themselves if it could be avoided by not eating. In the case of such a person I would suspect mental health issues and eating on the machine would be the least of the clinic's concerns.
Yea right.
So would those mental health issues also include that despite knowing all the risks and or benefits they still eat too much NA, K, PO4, not get enough protein and having lab values out of whack month in and month out because of it. Or maybe those that do not follow the diet except for the days or week before lab draw in order to get good labs?
People do what they want to do despite what is best for them in any given situation and they will any excuse they can to justify their actions.
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And I take it you must be the perfect little patient everyone loves?
I could respect your opinion, but no matter what another member say's, you can't respect their opinion and go on the offensive and I loose some respect. There are situations you have no clue to where people may need food. No one is normal on dialysis and everyone reacts differently. Diabetics for one don't all react the same as you so think at your unit and I doubt your there through all the shifts watching each and everyone of them taking notes to see how their blod sugars are, how they feel, ect. If a nurse or tech has to give glucose, then they are only putting a band aid on the situation. Glucose is for emergency situations and makes diabetes a little bit harder to control afterwards when you do get some food. Food on the other hand absorbs slowly and last longer in the body compared to glucose/D50 in saline.
Twirl, I would still talk to your doctor if he is the owner, he may not be aware of what is going on firsthand.A nephrologist should be familiar with what happens to patients with diabetes who don't eat and have low blood sugar.. Or at least have him explain why the decision was brought down in a non confrontational way. Don't be passive because he is your doc and the owner.
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Talk the other pts into EVERYONE eating at the same time. They can't run a business if they have to send everyone home!! And what business is it of theirs if you talk to another pt or not?? Sorry, maybe you could change clinics. They seem to be everywhere now, andnot all Davitas are run this way. In Houston, I have been to three of them, and never treated that way. Raise Cain Girl!!
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Bigsky for some people 6 hrs is a long time !!! Personally I find it hard to go for 6 hrs throughout the day without eating. I get very hungry and then get an upset stomach - usually because of hunger and gas pains. When hubby was doing in center he had breakfast at 5:30 a.m . Had an hrs drive to the clinic. Was hooked up between 7 and 7:30 and got off the machine 4 hrs and 15 mins later!!! Then he had to be unhooked and stop bleeding . By the time he was ready to go it was usually 12 or after. He needed to eat. he is not a diabetic but if he didn't have a snack and something to drink his blood pressure would drop. Plus he would be really hungry and then get gas pains from being hungry. I say unless there is a medical reason for you NOT to eat you should be allowed to at the very least have a snack and something to drink. There are so many restrictions with kidney failure why add another one.
As for cleaning up. Patients should be told they have to clean up their own space before they leave - pick up garbage etc. As for puke and other stuff that should be the nurse's or cleaners job. I'm a teacher and if a child threw up in my class I would never make them clean it up. If the janitor wasn't available I would do it and I have on many occasions!!!
I can't believe centers are run like this. Here in Canada centers are government run so we don't get this for profit stuff (Thank God).
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I personally try never to "shovel food down my gullet" and the small meal that I eat while dialyzing takes me 40 minutes to consume as I savor it along with my cup of tea that accompanies it. I eat every session, did it for 5 years last time I was on D, and the only time I have ever thrown up on the machine was the first time I cannulated myself. Extreme restrictions can cause extreme reactions. I myself am a big fan of moderation in most things and try to avoid the extremes of anything. Most of us in my clinic eat there and since April I have witnessed no adverse events other than one patient who was eating too much, dropping his BP as a result and now he eats a smaller meal or waits until after. Problem solved.
Cookie-cutter approaches are strictly for cookies.
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I dialyze at a Forsinius Unit and I they have a no eating, no drinking policy. It is a policy for our unit only as I have traveled to other units in the chain and been offered water and ice and allowed to eat. I usually bring water because my mouth gets dry and a protin bar. I have a hard time going hungry for so long and if I don't eat something, I usually lose my mind on the way home and end up going to the drive thru and eating something I shouldn't.
I have talked to the dietitian and she said it was OK to eat my protein bars and I want to get the doctor to OK it. It is a stupid policy but it was started because some patient were bringing in whole pizzas and creating a problem. Instead of just dealing with the one stupid person, the punished everyone.
I feel really insulted by the way these dialysis companies treat us. We are paying them $1800 a week to be sh**. It sucks.
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I do remeber people bringing in whole pizzas too or some barbeque ( Texas...) and it would smell alot. I didn't care for that part sometimes as you may feel queazy. :puke;
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I always bring a pop-tart and either a protein drink (Nepro) or now that I'm on 8 hours I get a cup of MILK. YEAH.... I'm not saying to bring in a whole broasted Chicken from Safeway, but NOTHING to eat is ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with a light snack.
Twirl is there another dialysis center close? If there is, call and see what their policies are. And move to another center if you have to. Next there will be NO heat on these places...... oh wait that has already happened.
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At first, I found Twirl's post very aggravating and cannot understand why a business would implement a policy like that-they deserve to lose their customers and fail in the marketplace. Back to that later...
Then, I red BigSky's replies. Insensitive, to say the least. I am not sure whether this person is a dialysis patient or a caregiver. Whatever it may be, there is no care in that attitude and if they are a dialysis center worker-get another job and good luck in life. If they are on dialysis, they need to take a step back and un-narrow their views.
I may be lucky that I live in a rural area and have 5 units-Davita and Fresenius-available within 50 miles-so I have choices. within 12 miles of home there are 3 units. I chose a Fresenius unit. Not the closest unit, but this one had nocturnal seats. I cannot say more about my treatment there. The nurses and the techs are very friendly and accomadating. They also tell me to bring a snack if I like. I also am provided with a protein bar each visit because my albumin is low. The unit also provides wifi-which I found out Friday when I brought my laptop. Unfortunately nobody knows how to access the guest network :oops; but they are more than willing to try and find out how. Along with my dialysis, the extras in the care I receive are the product they are selling, and I would recommend them to any new patient. Twirl, I don't see how this treatment you receive can be justified (unless there is a law or statute against it-then I would call my local politician) and I hope you have some recourse or can move to another center where better treatment can be received. I am with the others-if my signature can be added to a list, count me in.
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Then, I red BigSky's replies. Insensitive, to say the least.
Yes I was very shocked
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At first, I found Twirl's post very aggravating and cannot understand why a business would implement a policy like that-they deserve to lose their customers and fail in the marketplace. Back to that later...
Then, I red BigSky's replies. Insensitive, to say the least. I am not sure whether this person is a dialysis patient or a caregiver. Whatever it may be, there is no care in that attitude and if they are a dialysis center worker-get another job and good luck in life. If they are on dialysis, they need to take a step back and un-narrow their views.
Spoken like a true newbie to dialysis. That is if you really are on dialysis.
Instead of thinking of only yourself you should be thinking of the unit as a whole. Opps, that straight talk might be insensitive to you.
We all know why units do this and it is a medical issue, dangerous to other patients and the legal liability that occurs to units when something goes wrong.
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How is it dangerous to other patients to eat?
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There are situations you have no clue to where people may need food. No one is normal on dialysis and everyone reacts differently. Diabetics for one don't all react the same as you so think at your unit and I doubt your there through all the shifts watching each and everyone of them taking notes to see how their blod sugars are, how they feel, ect. If a nurse or tech has to give glucose, then they are only putting a band aid on the situation. Glucose is for emergency situations and makes diabetes a little bit harder to control afterwards when you do get some food. Food on the other hand absorbs slowly and last longer in the body compared to glucose/D50 in saline.
Exactly! I am a type 1 diabetic, and an extremely brittle one at that. As my kidney function declines, I have more and more trouble keeping my blood sugars up because my body can not eliminate the insulin as well (thanks to my pesky kidneys!), so it builds up in my body. My blood sugars also fluctuate wildly. It doesn't matter what I do, when; they can go from 500 to 30 in 45 minutes and vice versa! I can't wait 6 hours to eat. And glucose makes me violently sick. So they'd have to clean my puke up anyway. And due to my autonomic neuropathy (from the diabetes), I can't feel low blood sugars until they hit the 30's, which is extremely dangerous. Oh yeah, and I can no longer tell if my blood sugar is high or low based on how I feel. I used to get shaky when low and nauseous when high, but I have both of those symptoms almost constantly due to my worsening kidneys.
Once I start dialysis, I have no choice but to find a center that allows eating. And the moment they stop letting us eat, is the day I leave.
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How is it dangerous to other patients to eat?
I have to wonder also, but to truely understand his view, gonna need an essay report or something because so far his view does not have any insight other than opinion in my view.
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Jeez you're brave
I am never ever again going to reply to posts from certain members :shy;
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Give me some more straight talk, and explain how this can be dangerous to the unit because I do not know why units do this. If it is such a legal liability, why is it acceptable in some units? Stop trolling and taking jabs and explain your points. All I have seen you do is lash out. Why are you so angry? I bet if you took a poll of any unit you walked in to, a big honkin' majority would disagree with you. I bet if this was made into a poll question you would see the same results. This falls into patient care and comfort, and is not ridiculous-as you seem to think it is.
I would agree that a full, hot meal or a delivered pizza is a little out of the question, but a snack or light meal is not. You say that going 6 hours without food is not uncomfortable. Might be fine for you, but diabetics that have made it this far, the 20 years or so that it takes to reach dialysis. Have been taking smaller meals at shorter intervals to keep their blood sugar more level and 6 hours is a long time. I am sure that any unit would not want the "legal liability" of a diabetic crashing on them.
Yes, I am a newbie to dialysis. Everyone on dialysis was at one time. Not sure if this jab was provoke me in to, and bringing into question as to whether I am on dialysis or not is just plain stupid. I doubt anyone here wants to be-look at the site name.
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We all know why units do this and it is a medical issue, dangerous to other patients and the legal liability that occurs to units when something goes wrong.
All units do NOT do this, and we all know why. Eating is natural and necessary.
If liability were a big issue, then even hospitals and restaurants would stop serving meals. :rofl;
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Jeez you're brave
I am never ever again going to reply to posts from certain members :shy;
What?
All I did was ask for an explanation of his view that is more insightful to better understand why he believes what he believes. I'm not attacking, just trying to understand.
Whatever you do don't stop posting, I may not have something to say, ohh wait there's Who Loves IHD The Most....... :rofl;
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Everyone on this board has an opinion and is allowed to express it barring personal attacks. Please keep this in mind when discussing this subject. It seems to have it a sore nerve.
kitkatz,Moderator
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I wish they would make it a rule to not FART at the clinic. I would go for that! Talk about nauseating! The person next to me.... the guy that dresses like a woman... and has her missing leg between us.... acts like the GUY when she farts. Holy Mother! I'm sure the vinyl on the chair ripped 3 inches Thursday night! Now, I suppose her BIG Buck Burrito didn't help. At that I give Big Sky a point.
A light snack that doesn't produce gas is what should be the unspoken rule! :waving;
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I wish they would make it a rule to not FART at the clinic. I would go for that! Talk about nauseating! The person next to me.... the guy that dresses like a woman... and has her missing leg between us.... acts like the GUY when she farts. Holy Mother! I'm sure the vinyl on the chair ripped 3 inches Thursday night! Now, I suppose her BIG Buck Burrito didn't help. At that I give Big Sky a point.
A light snack that doesn't produce gas is what should be the unspoken rule! :waving;
:rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl;
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I wish they would make it a rule to not FART at the clinic. I would go for that! Talk about nauseating! The person next to me.... the guy that dresses like a woman... and has her missing leg between us.... acts like the GUY when she farts. Holy Mother! I'm sure the vinyl on the chair ripped 3 inches Thursday night! Now, I suppose her BIG Buck Burrito didn't help. At that I give Big Sky a point.
A light snack that doesn't produce gas is what should be the unspoken rule! :waving;
I have to plea guilty...Eight hours in that chair-can't really go anywhere. I try not to just let it rip and only let off pressure over time. :P
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:rofl; I like the way you put that!!!
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Give me some more straight talk, and explain how this can be dangerous to the unit because I do not know why units do this.
Its pretty simple and has to due with staffing of the unit. I have been in 9 different units and the staffing ratio tends to be 1 to 3 or 1 to 4.
As such if someone aspirates that takes nurses away from those other patients. At a minimum two nurses if not more are going to need to attend to the situation thus leaving others unattended thus possibly putting them in danger. All over something that can be avoided.
If it is such a legal liability, why is it acceptable in some units?
I will refrain from saying just how stupid that question is.......
It occurs all the time where a business does something that creates a legal liability for them and continues it up to the point that they end up facing that liability in court. History is full of this happening time and time again in business.
Stop trolling and taking jabs and explain your points. All I have seen you do is lash out. Why are you so angry? I bet if you took a poll of any unit you walked in to, a big honkin' majority would disagree with you. I bet if this was made into a poll question you would see the same results. This falls into patient care and comfort, and is not ridiculous-as you seem to think it is.
I stated something in a area and you are the one who attacked me. So that would make you the one that is angry.
Polls? Ya right. Evidently you missed the part where I said people will do what they want no matter what is best for them and use any excuse to justify it.
I would agree that a full, hot meal or a delivered pizza is a little out of the question, but a snack or light meal is not. You say that going 6 hours without food is not uncomfortable. Might be fine for you, but diabetics that have made it this far, the 20 years or so that it takes to reach dialysis. Have been taking smaller meals at shorter intervals to keep their blood sugar more level and 6 hours is a long time. I am sure that any unit would not want the "legal liability" of a diabetic crashing on them.
Evidently you must not control it very well then since you must get up several times a night since you cannot go 6 hours without.
Yes, I am a newbie to dialysis. Everyone on dialysis was at one time. Not sure if this jab was provoke me in to, and bringing into question as to whether I am on dialysis or not is just plain stupid. I doubt anyone here wants to be-look at the site name.
Actually it was a sarcasm in response to your attack.
All units do NOT do this, and we all know why. Eating is natural and necessary.
If liability were a big issue, then even hospitals and restaurants would stop serving meals. :rofl;
You are taking it out of context.
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:rofl;
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I thought there were no "stupid" ideas on this site?
Everyone gets to have an opinion, even if it may
differ with others. Without getting called stupid, ignorant or
any other fun little name.
Just sayin.
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BigSky, you should not talk about diabetes unless you have dealt with it for a long time. Apparently you do not know anything about diabetes and it's complications that effects every aspect of the body.
As a matter of fact, some diabetics do have to get up in the middle of the night to have a snack to keep their blood sugar in control rather than eating a large meal and upsetting the balance and control between blood sugar and insulin or in some cases medications with type 2 diabetics. Even in diabetics who do notget up at night, may have a low blood sugar attack once in awhile even though they have good control of their diabetes. There's also conditions that diabetics develop during their rest where their blood sugars run erratic and run high. When they wake up, they always have a high blood sugar. Once that is controlled in the morning, they have to have snacks throughout the day.
Unless you have first hand experience with diabetes, I wouldn't be making comments like you have made to wrandym.
If you want to make more accusations about diabetes, bring it on. But you better be prepared and some criticisms from other diabetics on here.
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Wow this has become quite the contraversy! I get stuck at work for most of the weekend and have missed out!
First of all, Rerun thank you for the dose of humour (I know farting isn't funny when you can't escape it... I have experienced it too, and worse) but it was perfett timing.. thank you :)
As for the main contention I don't think ANYONE condones taking in whole pizzas or fried food or whatever. In my unit we have packed sandwiches which the PSA gives us (along with tea or coffee). My shift starts AT lunchtime so it is appropriate and the food (such as it is) is provided by the hospital. On the morning shift they come around around 10am with tea/coffee & biscuits and cheese. Again not messy and provided. If an inpatient comes from a ward they often get a cooked meal sent down (and sometimes they smell quite nice even though I bet they aren't in reality - it is after all hospital food!! :rofl;). As others have said sometimes diabetics need something to up their BSL and that's important. Our unit always has a supply of sweet biscuits on hand. And of course if someone finishes underweight and low BP they often won't let them leave without a cup of coffee or tea to get them back on the straight and narrow.
Heck sometimes the nurses themselves bring in food, or on birthdays we bring in cake to share with everyone - patients and staff. That to me is all about community and doesn't cause issues at all!! For Christmas the staff brought in some scones and cream and we had a Kris Kringle.. that was really lovely. It was appropriate for those on dialysis and a bit of fun and something different. For NYE I have brought in champagne.
I think it should all be about what is appropriate and what isn't. Some people clearly in some situations don't know what is appropriate and go over the line (eg: bringing in fast food, pizza etc). I can see why that would upset some people. I sometimes wonder if my little jar of sweets makes diabetic patients uneasy... but nobody's ever said anything I certainly don't want to go out of my way to upset someone like that.
As for the vomit and other unintended excretions.. I think that is a totally DIFFERENT issue. Even if you've "shovelled" food down your throat or are just ill you don't deliberately go to puke up and SOME people do not handle dialysis so well (food or no food) and will throw up or have other accidents. In my view that is for the staff to help clean up because when we're tied up to the damn machine it's not like we can do very much with one arm and being unable to move. I don't think it's related at all to the other issue.
Unfortunately I've seen it all in my unit.. people throwing up, people being incontinent or bleeding badly etc etc... I don't think it's their fault and it's not something they really want to be doing on purpose... and are horribly embarassed and feel even worse when it happens. The unit need to be appropriate with how they handle it. My unit is appropriate they draw a curtain and just deal with it and try to minimise the discomfort to the patient (and others) as much as possible and as quickly as possible.
Well that's all I have to say on this for now.
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Give me some more straight talk, and explain how this can be dangerous to the unit because I do not know why units do this.
Its pretty simple and has to due with staffing of the unit. I have been in 9 different units and the staffing ratio tends to be 1 to 3 or 1 to 4.
As such if someone aspirates that takes nurses away from those other patients. At a minimum two nurses if not more are going to need to attend to the situation thus leaving others unattended thus possibly putting them in danger. All over something that can be avoided.
Hell, the nurse to patient ratio in hospitals is much higher than that! And patients press call buttons, machines alarm, and codes are called all the time. And how many dialysis patients do you really think are going to be crashing all at the same time? I think you may be a little paranoid and are overreacting to what might happen.
If you want to make more accusations about diabetes, bring it on. But you better be prepared and some criticisms from other diabetics on here.
:boxing; :boxing; :boxing;
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Not allowing people to sit next to each other is bizarre. At the place I go to you rarely get sat next to the same person two sessions running; but that's to do with the order in which you arrived, and which machines are ready. Deliberately splitting people up suggests that they think you might be plotting something. You could always write notes on bits of paper then chuck them to each other.
I look forward to dialysis because you get a pot of tea and sandwiches, plus ice and juice. At the other place I was at diabetics got sandwiches and otherwise you could get one if you begged and there were some left. Everyone got tea or ice and juice, and toast (cold, but sometimes just the thing). It is amazing how much you come to rely on it, though. I think now the food is seen by the hopital as something that settles us down for a couple of hours.
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Not eating for four hours is not a big deal if you are say... driving a car or at work. How many people do you know that drive for four hours without a coffee or water or a snack. How many people do you see at work that don't get 15 minutes every 4 hours by LAW that deserve a break and a snack and something to drink.
Let alone if you are on dialysis and all the protein is getting sucked out of your system plus other essential vitamins and minerals and fluid.
There is no question that a person will feel a little better if they get to replenish their system a tiny bit during a 4 hour session of dialysis.
The few times a nurse or tech has to clean up a mess is minimal.
After my dialysis I have to wait 2 hours for the bus. So the staff lets me sleep in the chair an extra hour. So in turn I wipe down my chair and the floor around me, and empty the garbage. Tit for tat~
I have seen techs sitting and talking on their cell phones, playing on the computer, and going on break during a three hour dialysis session. I don't think it would be too much for them to help a patient who has spilled a glass of ice.
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I never brought in much food - just something so the last hour I was not straving - a fellow patient brought in boxes of donuts a couple of treatments before Christmas - the patients and the staff all got a couple of donuts - no one complained then and after an hour of treatment the staff took all the left overs to the lounge room and ate them - the staff thought I brought them but I only helped carry in some boxes so I kept telling them who brought them in-- she has hardly any money and I thought thas was so nice of her -- I gave her all these hurricane free meals we got and she eats them for dinner and so does her son------- got to go to church ----- see ya later
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YOU had better PRAY that your situation changes!
:bow;
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BigSky, you should not talk about diabetes unless you have dealt with it for a long time. Apparently you do not know anything about diabetes and it's complications that effects every aspect of the body.
Actually I am quite aware.
As for the main contention I don't think ANYONE condones taking in whole pizzas or fried food or whatever.
Its such a controversy because I part ways and agree with the units on such a policy and am not on the old one for all bandwagon and upset their us against them complex that seems to be displayed time and time again.
You say no one condones taking whole pizzas etc etc.
However if people are allowed to take food in the unit, the unit has no justification to limit what someone else might want to bring in to eat. To do so will would be discriminatory.
The same argument people try to use to justify why food and drink should be brought in can be used by others wanting that pizza ,Chinese, or BBQ instead.
Maybe that is the future. Let everyone do dialysis at a buffet.
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The effects of food intake during hemodialysis treatments
Barakat, M.M., Nawab, Z.M., Yu, A.W., Lau, A.H., Ing, T.S., & Daugirdas, J.T. (1993). Hemodynamic effects of intradialytic food ingestion and the effects of caffeine. Journal of the American Society of Nephrology, 3(11), 1813-1818.
Grodzicke, T., Rajzer, M., Fagard, R., O'Brien, E.T, Thijs, L., Clement, D., Davidson, C., Palatini, P., Parati, G., Kocemba, J., & Staessen, J.A. (1998). Ambulatory blood pressure monitoring and postprandial hypotension in elderly patients with isolated systolic hypertension. Journal of Human Hypertension, 12(3), 161-165.
Mon, C., Vazquez, A., Sanchez, R., Fernandez-Reyes, M.J., Alvarez, U de F. (1999). Significant reduction of delivered Kt/V by food intake during hemodialysis. Journal of the American Society of Nephrology, 10, 334A.
Shibagaki, Y., & Takaichi, K. (1998). Significant reduction of the large-vessel blood volume by food intake during hemodialysis. Clinical Nephrology, 49(1), 49-54.
Yu, A.W., Nawab, Z.M., Barnes, W.E., Kai, K.N., Ing, T.S., & Daugirdas, J.T. (1997). Splanchnic erythrocyte content decreases during hemodialysis: A new compensatory mechanism for hypovolemia. Kidney International, 51, 1986-1990.
The search for the following research articles originally started an effort to understand why some of outpatients had symptomatic hypotensive episodes. We also knew when we implemented "No Eating and Drinking on Hemodialysis" in our unit, both our patients and staff needed to understand the rationale for this new policy or from the compliance perspective we would fail. When I surveyed our Renalpro listserv, the overwhelming reason for not eating or drinking on hemodialysis was for infection control purposes. The other reason mentioned was the need to protect the patients from aspiration when they vomited due to their drop in blood pressure.
As we know, there have been major technological advances in dialysis, especially in the last 10 years. Yet, we still see our patients becoming symptomatically or asymptomatically hypotensive during hemodialysis treatments. Initially, practitioners" felt this phenomenon was due to patients' reactions to nonbiocompatible filter membranes. We now have biocompatible membranes, this being indicated by patients maintaining some residual renal function long after hemodialysis treatments start. This suggests that biocompatibility is not the complete story. Another suggestion is, maybe we are trying to remove too much fluid too quickly. This is definitely a factor, but patients who have minimal fluid removal of 1.0 to 2.0 kg have hypotensive episodes when they eat during hemodialysis treatments.
There are a number of published articles demonstrating that postprandial hypotension is prevalent in elderly nondialysis patients, and this prevalence increases with age. The observed effects of eating on dialysis have long been known. Several studies e documented significantly faster decreases in blood pressure when hemodialysis patients were given food on dialysis. It was noted that patients who ingested food on dialysis required infusions of saline for their hypotensive episodes more often than those patients who remained NPO during hemodialysis. This information led many in the dialysis community to allow some patients to eat, yet restrict others. The following articles highlight the relationship between food consumption and the redistribution of blood from the large vessels to the splanchnic organs. Extrapolating this further; if the splanchnic circulation remains contracted when our patients stay NPO, then these patients should have a better total body clearance of nitrogenous wastes as a larger volume of blood is available for filtration.
One question we needed to ask was: "Are we doing our patients any favors allowing them to eat on hemodialysis?" Are we trying so hard to improve outpatients' nutritional intake that we feel we cannot allow 4-6 hours without nourishment 3 times per week? Maybe we should be looking at this from a different perspective. If dialysis efficiency improves, will appetite improve to the point where they can enjoy their meals in the comfort of their home? Also, hemodialysis is a physiologically stressful treatment: Are our patients receiving any nutrient value from the food they eat during the dialysis treatment?
The following journal articles try to answer some of these questions. They also highlight areas for further research and discussion. It would be interesting to perform some of these studies with larger populations of patients. With the new technology of blood volume monitoring becoming easier and less" expensive, we will be able to assess outpatients" blood volume first hand.
Barakat, M.M., Nawab, Z.M., Yu, A.W., Lau, A.H., Ing, T.S., & Daugirdas, J.T. (1993). Hemodynamic effects of intradialytic food ingestion and the effects of caffeine. Journal of the American Society of Nephrology, 3(11), 1813-1818.
Summary: It has long been documented that some patients have hypotensive episodes with food ingestion during hemodialysis. The mechanisms for this have not been clear. There has been a suggestion that it could be due to decreased cardiac output. This decreased cardiac output could be due to shifting of blood volume from the central circulation to the splanchnic circulation or to the vasorelaxation of the sphanchnic vessels. The splanchnic/splenic vascular bed is composed of the blood vessels supplying the liver, intestines, and the spleen.
It has also been demonstrated that caffeine blocks postprandial hypotension in the elderly with autonomic insufficiency in the nondialysis patient population. These researchers, using a double blind crossover trial, studied the effects of: placebo/no meal, placebo/meal, and caffeine/meal. Ten reasonably stable (non-hypotensive prone) chronic hemodialysis patients were studied. The researchers monitored the cardiac output of 10 hemodialysis patients who ingested a meal 1 hour into hemodialysis using thoracic electric bioimpedance. To standardize the treatments as much as possible, all ultrafiltration occurred within the first 2 hours of the treatment This also maximized the hypovolemic stress during and after the period of food ingestion. Bicarbonate dialysate was used
During the treatments accompanied by ultrafiltration where food was ingested, the blood pressures were found to drop sooner and to a greater extent when compared to the smaller blood pressure drops when food was not ingested (e.g., at 30 minutes after food ingestion, percent change in mean arterial pressure [MAP] was -12.4 + 1.8 mmHg versus -2.4 + 3.5 mmHg when food was not ingested). Essentially, the mechanism for food ingestion-related hypotension was related to a drop in systemic vascular resistance (SVR). The caffeine pretreatment of 200 mg resulted in intradialytic plasma caffeine levels of 4 micrograms/mL at the time of food ingestion. The caffeine appeared to have no effect on food-associated drops in blood pressure or SVR. The researchers felt the results suggested that food ingestion during hemodialysis caused hypotension mainly due to the decrease in SVR. The ingestion of caffeine did not appear to have any effect on either the MAP or SVR during the hemodialysis treatment.
Commentary: This article evaluated the effects of caffeine on postprandial hypotension in dialysis patients. It has been shown thai caffeine can block the postprandial effects in elderly nondialysis patients through its theoretical vaso-constrictive activity. In hemodialysis patients, caffeine failed to block the accelerated drop in MAP following food ingestion and did not block the SVR observed following food ingestion during their treatments. The researchers did wonder if sufficient caffeine may have been dialyzed out in the first 2 hours of dialysis, leaving insufficient caffeine to exert an effect. It appears that the ingestion of food during dialysis caused an accelerated fall in blood pressure. This study showed that the fall in MAP was due to a decrease in SVR. The results of this research confirmed the results of earlier studies by Sherman, Tortes, and Cody (1988) and Zoccali, Mallamaci, Ciccarelli, mad Maggiore (1989). The results also demonstrated that the mechanism for the hypotensive episodes was related to a decrease in SVR.
Grodzicke, T., Rajzer, M., Fagard, R., O'Brien, E.T, Thijs, L., Clement, D., Davidson, C., Palatini, P., Parati, G., Kocemba, J., & Staessen, J.A. (1998). Ambulatory blood pressure monitoring and postprandial hypotension in elderly patients with isolated systolic hypertension. Journal of Human Hypertension, 12(3), 161-165
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Bigsky my husband always had fluid gain of between 1 and 2 kg between treatments. he always had something to drink and a snack on dialysis and never ever had a problem with b/p because of it!!! I really don't agree with dialysis units banning drinking and having a snack. Some people need to eat or have something through out the treatment so that their b/p won't drop or they won't get sick because they are hungry.
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Most studies done and publishes of dialysis patients take a small number of patients, like 9 and extrapolate to the entire population. And it ain't necessarily so for everyone. Remember such studies can be interpreted any way they want to interpret them. We have no way of knowing ages or illnesses of those patients in the study.
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Big Sky you are probably right. It may not be the best for dialysis patients to eat and drink during the procedure. But, in the real world they are not trying to make our lives normal again like we are ever going to get well. They are keeping us alive. Who CARES if we don't get the maximum treatment because some of our blood is down processing food. It isn't going to change the end result. We are not going to get well or feel better because 2 cups of blood don't get clean. For crap sake..... OK YOU WIN, but that doesn't make it comfortable for us. It probably isn't good to have a blanket on either. I'm sure if they did a study it is not good to have everyone's blankets drug in and out of the clinic with all the germs, cat hair etc....
The point I'm trying to make is we don't have much to live for or look forward to. Let me have my pop-tart and milk.
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From Bill Peckham's site
April 10, 2008
Eating during dialysis: Good or bad?
RenalWEB links to a Controversies in Nephrology Nursing article on ANNA: Should Patients Eat During Hemodialysis Treatments? by Helene Christner and Monica Riley. They list the pro and con arguments. I've heard it all before - this has to be the subject of 100s of discussion board and listserv threads.
Sure. Sure. I support the conclusion of the article - we need more research into the actual dialysis treatment but I think we can sort this one out without a double blind study. I think those who put forward the con argument are talking about blanket policies. One size fits all rules that accommodate the lowest common denominator amongst a unit's dialyzors. I think a willingness to adopt blanket policies does not speak well of the unit.
Obviously some dialyzors have no problem eating during treatment. However, I've been to dialysis units across the globe, I know sandwiches are often served. Most dialyzors - if well dialyzed, do not have a problem eating . I know most other countries in the world - the sandwich serving countries - have much better dialysis outcomes. I know that a blanket no food policy is not justified in most cases (if a unit is running all of their patients for less than four hours, a no food policy may be neccessry but it will be the least of their patients problems).
As far as the threat of novel lawsuits? In my experience the threat of a novel lawsuit is the last refuge for a weak argument.
The research article that BigSky posted is an important one because it is the result of a search for articles in "an effort to understand why some of outpatients [sic] had symptomatic hypotensive episodes". The word some is as important as it is instructive. For those patients who experience hypotensive episodes, symptomatic or not, eating during dialysis sounds like a bad idea. For those who do not experience problematic drops in BP such a policy seems rigid and in fact rather punitive. Patients have differing requirements for all sorts of things; for medications, for dialysate composition, for binders, for blankets during treatment etc. Common sense would be welcome in this area as in many others.
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BigSky, you should not talk about diabetes unless you have dealt with it for a long time. Apparently you do not know anything about diabetes and it's complications that effects every aspect of the body.
Actually I am quite aware.
And?????? Explain how you are aware. It still appears like you have no clue first hand and of other diabetics. So far it seems you are only going by what you have seen or what you can see at your unit which doesn't give you insight to the rammifications of diabetes at all.
I could make a political joke of the short answer given, but I digress.
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As for the main contention I don't think ANYONE condones taking in whole pizzas or fried food or whatever.
Its such a controversy because I part ways and agree with the units on such a policy and am not on the old one for all bandwagon and upset their us against them complex that seems to be displayed time and time again.
You say no one condones taking whole pizzas etc etc.
However if people are allowed to take food in the unit, the unit has no justification to limit what someone else might want to bring in to eat. To do so will would be discriminatory.
The same argument people try to use to justify why food and drink should be brought in can be used by others wanting that pizza ,Chinese, or BBQ instead.
Maybe that is the future. Let everyone do dialysis at a buffet.
The problem is you are pushing this to an extreme with your examples. I would say 95% of the dialysis population are smart enough to know what is appropriate. It is all about common sense (and let's face it, some courtesy - who wants to see some other patient scoffing down a pizza when they're sitting there for five hours staving? I know I wouldn't deliberately do something like that.. it would be like going into a unit post transplant to visit and swigging from a litre bottle of water in front of them).
As usual in this sort of situation it seems that, at some units where this policy has come in, it's because of a tiny MINORITY of people who are selfish, insensitive and/or stupid who ruin it for everyone else.. and that's sad.
As I said earlier in our unit I only eat what is provided by the unit (which is a hospital unit) though I also have a small jar of sweets to up my BP a bit in the last hour. Nobody blinks an eye and as I said sometimes the staff like one or two themselves. For special occasions like birthdays or christmas then sometimes cakes or other goodies will be brought in, but it's more an exception than a general statement.
As for the argument about patients having problems with BP going down. This is a well known effect of eating on dialysis. Now if a patient has a regular issue with their BP going too low and a crash or cramp that can be linked to eating.. fine, suggest they don't eat for their own well being.. should that affect the rest of us? I've been going 2.5 years and can't think of a single time that eating has affected my BP that badly. Indeed usually we have a cup of tea with sandwiches, and I find the hot tea raises the BP a bit anyway so it sort of evens out in the end.
I also noted in the study you posted all the dates were in the mid-late 90's. We're 10 years on from there and I bet a study done now might find something different. Go figure.
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I do not want a buffet at dialysis but if that ever happens I will be the first in line saving places for Kitkatz and Rerun....
I would like 1/2 a sandwhich, a fruit cup, hot tea and 6 soft Cheeto's...... that is it
when my blood pressure is low at the end of dialysis they make me drink chicken broth
it has happened two times in 4 years
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I hate to interrupt, but I have noticed a pattern with a certain member who enjoys being argumentative.
Now that the political thread is closed, this member may find it pleasurable to pick a fight on another thread.
I don't think any response will be acceptable as this member's goal is simply to argue and show that you are wrong.
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Well well Mikey, your observational skills are as sharp as any sword or tongue in the land. Please feel free to interrupt at any time. ;D
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BigSky, you should not talk about diabetes unless you have dealt with it for a long time. Apparently you do not know anything about diabetes and it's complications that effects every aspect of the body.
Actually I am quite aware.
And?????? Explain how you are aware. It still appears like you have no clue first hand and of other diabetics. So far it seems you are only going by what you have seen or what you can see at your unit which doesn't give you insight to the rammifications of diabetes at all.
I could make a political joke of the short answer given, but I digress.
Even if you know a diabetic, or even work with them in the medical field, you will never be "aware" unless you are actually a diabetic. I absolutely hate it when people tell me they know how I feel, or how i have to plan every little thing I do, every second of my life. NO, they do NOT know! And they never will.
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BigSky, you should not talk about diabetes unless you have dealt with it for a long time. Apparently you do not know anything about diabetes and it's complications that effects every aspect of the body.
Actually I am quite aware.
And?????? Explain how you are aware. It still appears like you have no clue first hand and of other diabetics. So far it seems you are only going by what you have seen or what you can see at your unit which doesn't give you insight to the rammifications of diabetes at all.
I could make a political joke of the short answer given, but I digress.
Even if you know a diabetic, or even work with them in the medical field, you will never be "aware" unless you are actually a diabetic. I absolutely hate it when people tell me they know how I feel, or how i have to plan every little thing I do, every second of my life. NO, they do NOT know! And they never will.
Paddbear, I agree wit you, but I just want more of an answer from him. Quite aware doesn't mean a thing. It's an illicit answer that a politician would use in a press confrence to avoid answering. And no that was not the political joke I was going to use.
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I realize you want an explanation from him. So do I. I just wanted to put my :twocents; in on the subject.
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My husband has diabetes and I am the one with kidney disease. I have no idea how hard it is for him to not reach for a cookie or a candy bar. He doesn't pretend to know exactly how I feel. I hate that he has to be so careful with food, especially when family is together and everyone is eating all the different desserts, etc. Diabetes is a hard disease; but it is much harder for him than for me. I just have to watch what groceries I buy for him.
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Not eating for four hours is not a big deal if you are say... driving a car or at work. How many people do you know that drive for four hours without a coffee or water or a snack. How many people do you see at work that don't get 15 minutes every 4 hours by LAW that deserve a break and a snack and something to drink.
Let alone if you are on dialysis and all the protein is getting sucked out of your system plus other essential vitamins and minerals and fluid.
There is no question that a person will feel a little better if they get to replenish their system a tiny bit during a 4 hour session of dialysis.
The few times a nurse or tech has to clean up a mess is minimal.
After my dialysis I have to wait 2 hours for the bus. So the staff lets me sleep in the chair an extra hour. So in turn I wipe down my chair and the floor around me, and empty the garbage. Tit for tat~
I have seen techs sitting and talking on their cell phones, playing on the computer, and going on break during a three hour dialysis session. I don't think it would be too much for them to help a patient who has spilled a glass of ice.
What a nice patient! We clean up everything... That's the job!
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BigSky, you should not talk about diabetes unless you have dealt with it for a long time. Apparently you do not know anything about diabetes and it's complications that effects every aspect of the body.
Actually I am quite aware.
And?????? Explain how you are aware. It still appears like you have no clue first hand and of other diabetics. So far it seems you are only going by what you have seen or what you can see at your unit which doesn't give you insight to the rammifications of diabetes at all.
I could make a political joke of the short answer given, but I digress.
Even if you know a diabetic, or even work with them in the medical field, you will never be "aware" unless you are actually a diabetic. I absolutely hate it when people tell me they know how I feel, or how i have to plan every little thing I do, every second of my life. NO, they do NOT know! And they never will.
Exactly. I teach classes in Diabetic health, take care of my patients who are diabetic. I am also "quite aware", but really, since I'm not a diabetic, I really don't have a clue.
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I am inclined to agree with Mikey.
I also have to agree with the other diabetics in that nobody, but myself, knows how or what I may feel.
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BigSky I have a question... if you were in a unit that provided some sort of snack (so you would presume it was OK by the unit dietician etc to provide) would you object to that? Or are you just objecting to outside food being brought in (where it's true if you let someone bring in an apple what's to stop the pizza and sundae desert?). I could understand a "no outside food" rule since that would stop people bringing in their pizzas etc but also food that would be potentially bad for you (ever seen a dialysis patient with a banana??? :) ) but allow for snacks and drinks provided by the staff. That seems a reasonable compromise IMHO.
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ever seen a dialysis patient with a banana???
That I have seen, both in the hospital and as an outpatient. Part of me is wondering why the hospital let that slip by while I wasn't allowed. But at my center, at that person's age who was eating it, so what. Let them enjoy life, just don't be crying wolf later due to yur mistake. Then again I wonder how many of the elderly patients fully understood about what foods not to eat. It wa confusing for me for a bit as a diabetic with each change to the diabetic diet that about changed every 2 years at the time. However I do understand your point RM
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With diabetes, gastroparesis, nausea caused by an empty stomach, and occasional hypotension, it's a juggling act for us. Happily the unit respects our decision.
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I do not need to EVER "explain" myself to you. Especially medical history.
You wanted an essay and you got a medical study on this issue.
Even if you know a diabetic, or even work with them in the medical field, you will never be "aware" unless you are actually a diabetic. I absolutely hate it when people tell me they know how I feel, or how i have to plan every little thing I do, every second of my life. NO, they do NOT know! And they never will.
That same thing could be said about those not on dialysis. Ohh wait isnt that you.
So are you saying you are not aware about complete kidney failure?
I hate to interrupt, but I have noticed a pattern with a certain member who enjoys being argumentative.
Now that the political thread is closed, this member may find it pleasurable to pick a fight on another thread.
I don't think any response will be acceptable as this member's goal is simply to argue and show that you are wrong.
Not at all. I stated my view and was attacked for it.
You might have rolled over because of it but I do not. I will defend my view just as I expect others to defend their view especially when attacked.
BTW I was not the one who started posting the political stuff and the one who still starts such posts in the Off topic area.
BigSky I have a question... if you were in a unit that provided some sort of snack (so you would presume it was OK by the unit dietician etc to provide) would you object to that? Or are you just objecting to outside food being brought in (where it's true if you let someone bring in an apple what's to stop the pizza and sundae desert?). I could understand a "no outside food" rule since that would stop people bringing in their pizzas etc but also food that would be potentially bad for you (ever seen a dialysis patient with a banana??? :) ) but allow for snacks and drinks provided by the staff. That seems a reasonable compromise IMHO.
What each unit does is their business. IF they dont want to allow it that is their right, if they want to allow it that is also their right.
Some on this board act like its us against them. They need to lose that anger.
That whatever a unit does they disagree with is being done by the unit to punish them in some sort of way. Its not.
If a unit wants to go to no food or drink that is their right and their are several valid reasons for doing so as well as medical studies support it.
Just because one is a customer DOESNT mean they get to do whatever they want, despite some on this board thinking since they are the customer they can do whatever they wish.
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Here is a calming image. Please look at it for a moment before posting! ;D
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:popcorn;
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I do not need to EVER "explain" myself to you. Especially medical history.
Hellooo,
In this case you stated something so follow it up with an explanation, not a vague answer. You brought that upon yourself. If you can't explain your view, then what good was it to post it. I don't wan't your whole medical history. Your lack of information lends me to believe and others you do not know what you are talking about.
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By all means if you truly think its in control when one needs to get up multiple times every night to eat that is your opinion. You might want to inform the medical community of your facts. Oh wait best make sure its only those that have dealt with it a long time like you same must happen before they can say anything on the matter.
I do not need to explain anything to you especially when you logic in the matter is faulty.
BTW As by your own words you feel that only those who have dealt with it a long time can say anything on the matter.
Which in other words would mean by your own logic you have nothing to say about complete renal failure nor dialysis since you never dealt with it a long time.
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By all means if you truly think its in control when one needs to get up multiple times every night to eat that is your opinion. You might want to inform the medical community of your facts. Oh wait best make sure its only those that have dealt with it a long time like you same must happen before they can say anything on the matter.
I do not need to explain anything to you especially when you logic in the matter is faulty.
BTW As by your own words you feel that only those who have dealt with it a long time can say anything on the matter.
Which in other words would mean by your own logic you have nothing to say about complete renal failure nor dialysis since you never dealt with it a long time.
I agree I didn't choose the best words using long time.
However, when it comes to diabetes the complications become more revelant over time for some diabetics, few may have them sooner.. As for having to eat snacks at night with the need to get up occassionally, that's not opinion, that's is talking with medical faculty and other diabetics at symposiums on diabetes. Hospitals will also do this for patients. Not all diabetics have to do that as stated before that no two diabetics are a like.
As for your debate tatics, they need some improvement. You state something and then don't want to supply information to a means of your opinion, what good is posting something then. Then you just go on attacking other members.
Get off your high horse and give members a better understanding of your view rather than just coming back with an attack because no one fits your view. A debate is to give your opinion and sway others to your side with information you provide. Which is lacking when it comes to diabetes, but go ahead, say "I don't have to explain myself" That I know is your given answer, the cure all of all answers.
And my logic is fine about diabetes and the need to have a snack of something to eat while on dialysis. Apparently from the lack of input you provide, you have given the impression you do not know what you are talking about.
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I do not want a buffet at dialysis but if that ever happens I will be the first in line saving places for Kitkatz and Rerun....
I would like 1/2 a sandwhich, a fruit cup, hot tea and 6 soft Cheeto's...... that is it
when my blood pressure is low at the end of dialysis they make me drink chicken broth
it has happened two times in 4 years
Thank you for saving me a place in line. That would be a perfect snack.... 1/2 a sandwich, a fruit cup, hot tea and 10 soft Cheeto's.
:thumbup;
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Some on this board act like its us against them. They need to lose that anger.
By what you say here bigsky you must work for one of the units that are banning food and drink. We are ALL entitled to our opinion and should not be attacking each other ( and yes I did look at the peaceful picture before I posted) This issue does not really concern me anymore because hubby does home hemo and he can eat or drink whatever he wants when he is hooked to the machine!! I think that dialysis units should have a little bit of compassion towards there patients. Those patients have a chronic disease that without the treatment they would not be around here. How would you feel if you were the one siting there in a dialysis chair hungry and thirsty and not allowed to have anything. Not a good feeling.
Dialysis does clean the body of toxins and also removes stuff like protein. When the protein is removed, and this happens a lot with nocturnal the body responses by craving for food to get back the protein it is missing. Because of this the patient is usually very hungry!!
If I(or my hubby) was one of those people that were at a dialysis unit that banned food and drink I would be kicking up h$%^!! My voice would be heard loud and strong by everybody who I thought could help me!! I would want sound medical reasons that would apply to everybody not just a few people!! Why ban everyone from eating and drinking if some people are abusing it. Just deal with those people.
Bigsky if you aren't on dialysis try to put yourself in the dialysis patient's place for a while. I am not on dialysis but I have been dealing with it for the last 12 years (20 if you count pre dialysis) and it is not easy. There are restrictions everywhere you look and to further restrict to say that you have to go sometimes for 5 or 6 hours without food or drink ( longer if doing nocturnal ) is just silly without sound medical reasons. I have done lots of research and no where have I read that dialysis patients should not eat or drink during treatment.
I am not attacking anyone just stating my opinion and some facts!!!
EDITED:Removed quote tag error-kitkatz,Moderator
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I do not want a buffet at dialysis but if that ever happens I will be the first in line saving places for Kitkatz and Rerun....
I would like 1/2 a sandwhich, a fruit cup, hot tea and 6 soft Cheeto's...... that is it
when my blood pressure is low at the end of dialysis they make me drink chicken broth
it has happened two times in 4 years
Thank you for saving me a place in line. That would be a perfect snack.... 1/2 a sandwich, a fruit cup, hot tea and 10 soft Cheeto's.
:thumbup;
Thanks for saving me a place in line.
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I agree I didn't choose the best words using long time.
However, when it comes to diabetes the complications become more revelant over time for some diabetics, few may have them sooner.. As for having to eat snacks at night with the need to get up occassionally, that's not opinion,
My statement never said anything about getting up occasionally. (#70) You are trying to change the discussion of what I said to that.
As for your debate tatics, they need some improvement. You state something and then don't want to supply information to a means of your opinion, what good is posting something then. Then you just go on attacking other members.
Evidently you do not comprehend the fact I NEVER have explain myself to you.
You complain about attacking when in fact you attacked me first. Boy thats a good one. :rofl;
Get off your high horse and give members a better understanding of your view rather than just coming back with an attack because no one fits your view. A debate is to give your opinion and sway others to your side with information you provide. Which is lacking when it comes to diabetes, but go ahead, say "I don't have to explain myself" That I know is your given answer, the cure all of all answers.
And my logic is fine about diabetes and the need to have a snack of something to eat while on dialysis. Apparently from the lack of input you provide, you have given the impression you do not know what you are talking about.
Sorry but by your own view you havent dealt with dialysis long enough to talk about what one needs on dialysis. But if you really want to get into it about people not knowing what they are talking about.
The medical study more than gives the impression you do not know what you are talking about.
BTW this isnt a debate that changes minds despite you thinking so.
The us against them mentality is strong and I have seen it in a number of other threads and it doesnt change. Some have that view because they are angry. They are angry they have to restrict their diet, they are angry they have to take the medications, they are angry they have to devote several hours a week to dialysis an so forth.
People will think they are wronged if a unit tells them they cannot eat or drink and nothing is going to change their mind on that view and the funny thing is you actually think anything said might change that view? Ya right.
By what you say here bigsky you must work for one of the units that are banning food and drink. We are ALL entitled to our opinion and should not be attacking each other ( and yes I did look at the peaceful picture before I posted) This issue does not really concern me anymore because hubby does home hemo and he can eat or drink whatever he wants when he is hooked to the machine!! I think that dialysis units should have a little bit of compassion towards there patients. Those patients have a chronic disease that without the treatment they would not be around here. How would you feel if you were the one siting there in a dialysis chair hungry and thirsty and not allowed to have anything. Not a good feeling.
I am sitting there on the machine.
However it probably doesnt seem like that because I do not let it limit me and do not use it as an excuse.
Dialysis does clean the body of toxins and also removes stuff like protein. When the protein is removed, and this happens a lot with nocturnal the body responses by craving for food to get back the protein it is missing. Because of this the patient is usually very hungry!!
Some protein is lost during dialysis. So you are really saying that people could really just drink some boost to replace protein then while on dialysis?
However can you produce a study to back up the second part of your statement?
I would want sound medical reasons that would apply to everybody not just a few people!! Why ban everyone from eating and drinking if some people are abusing it. Just deal with those people.
Medical studies do support this position.
It applies to all people, if people pass out while eating or if they throw up after passing out they can aspirate. Will all people pass out? No, but things are done for everyone. Just as not everyone drops their bp but because of medical studies units lower temps on the machines and keep temps lower in the units to help combat low bp.
Also of interest would be those that could eat and drink in that should they be eating and drinking in front of other dialysis patients? Especially in light of the fact that on a prior discussion on this board people have said that people shouldnt be drinking in front of dialysis patients.
There are restrictions everywhere you look and to further restrict to say that you have to go sometimes for 5 or 6 hours without food or drink ( longer if doing nocturnal ) is just silly without sound medical reasons. I have done lots of research and no where have I read that dialysis patients should not eat or drink during treatment.
I am not attacking anyone just stating my opinion and some facts!!!
There is a medical paper posted on this forum concerning not eating and drinking and there have been a number of studies done on the subject and are posted on the web.
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Twirl, see what you started, girlfriend! :rofl; Who knew there were such prolific opinions of eating at dialysis! :rofl;
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and I cheated and ate a cheese string :shy;
next time ----- I am out on my butt :waiting;
I was sooo hungry..... and other patients were cheating but I told on no one
I ain't a squealer
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Anyone else bored with this conversation? :shy;
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Hate to say this and potentially add to the flames (and I loved the calming picture padd! :) ) but from my reading of this thread BigSky it's you who have been angry, agressive and attacking IMHO. Yes, some have bitten back because they feel they need to defend their position. For me I would never write about a diabetic's life or requirements because knock on wood I am not one (and fingers crossed will stay that way!!) but I can certainly understand that ANYONE who makes an argument without backing an opinion up with either fact or at least an argument to support their opinion should be questioned as part of a meaningful debate.
I am interested in the different points of view. I can certainly see the pros and cons on both sides of eating or not eating. I thought about the situation here in oz as I understand it and it seems most units, both public and private, have food of one sort or another available. Indeed the chief nurse at my unit was trying to convince a patient it would be in his best interests to move to a private unit closer to his home and one of her arguments from working there was "the food's better! They have fresh muffins and fruit salad!" :rofl;
I always comply with the rules the unit makes, and I do understand and not apprieciate when those come along try to flaunt them (like the guy who KEEPS coming early and then getting upset when there's not a machine instantly ready for him.. WTF?).. so if a unit went no food I'd at least understand why from these threads and that's a good thing. I know I could go 5 hours without food, though it would be uncomfortable.. but some can't and one would hope that in situations that require something - and I am talking on medical grounds now - like a diabetic with low BSL or something - then they should be allowed in that case. I guess that would then bring up the argument that some people might get upset if they see one person with food and they can't have anything and they don't understand why and would then complain *sigh*
btw BigSky you commented about being on the machine and not letting it limit you. Well most people on IHD are like that! Look at Zach and everyone that goes to the events etc. I do my best to not let it limit me either and live as normal a life as possible.. I'm not sure how that is relevant to this issue.
peace!
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This is my last comment because I am sooooo bored with this!! Whatever we say bigsky has his own answer for it. The studies that have been done are very few and have been done on a small group of people where nobody knows the age of the patients or their other medical conditions. Dialysis has not limited my husband in any way or has it limited many people on this site.!!! He is much more able to enjoy life since dialysis especially hemo!! Hubby does home hemo and if he ever has to go back to in center he will eat the same as he always did!!! He was in center for 6 years and never ever saw anybody have any problems with eating or drinking anything!!
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Hate to say this and potentially add to the flames (and I loved the calming picture padd! :) ) but from my reading of this thread BigSky it's you who have been angry, agressive and attacking IMHO. Yes, some have bitten back because they feel they need to defend their position. For me I would never write about a diabetic's life or requirements because knock on wood I am not one (and fingers crossed will stay that way!!) but I can certainly understand that ANYONE who makes an argument without backing an opinion up with either fact or at least an argument to support their opinion should be questioned as part of a meaningful debate.
:rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl; :rofl;
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I would agree that a full, hot meal or a delivered pizza is a little out of the question, but a snack or light meal is not. You say that going 6 hours without food is not uncomfortable. Might be fine for you, but diabetics that have made it this far, the 20 years or so that it takes to reach dialysis. Have been taking smaller meals at shorter intervals to keep their blood sugar more level and 6 hours is a long time. I am sure that any unit would not want the "legal liability" of a diabetic crashing on them.
Evidently you must not control it very well then since you must get up several times a night since you cannot go 6 hours without.
Hence you have no idea what your talking about when it comes to diabetes.
[Actually I am quite aware.
Which I then asked for an explanation and you go off on a tirade. Along with attacking other members of the group.
And I never said I knew a lot about dialysis. I had it, but not as long as other people on here. If I don't know something in a post, I ask.
So go back to thinking your so perfect and have no flaws, because your not worth any time to watch you attack other membersi.
I have respect for others on here, but none for you.
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So go back to thinking your so perfect and have no flaws, because your not worth my or any other members you attack time with your input since you think your crap don't stink.
Chris, as a Moderator I am calling you on a personal attack here. You were fine up to this statement. I think you may want to modify your statement to not be offensive to the readers of IHD.com Thank you.
kitkatz,Moderator
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Which I then asked for an explanation and you go off on a tirade. Along with attacking other members of the group.
And I never said I knew a lot about dialysis. I had it, but not as long as other people on here. If I don't know something in a post, I ask.
So go back to thinking your so perfect and have no flaws, because your not worth my or any other members you attack time with your input since you think your crap don't stink.
I have respect for others on here, but none for you.
You attacked me first as well as a host of others before I did anything that was an attack, all because they didnt like my position supporting the policy or my opinion.
You even continue with your little personal attacks.
Second
No one said anything about you claiming to know alot about dialysis or saying you didnt.
This is just another attempt on your part to change what was actually said and discussed.
YOU were the one that came up with the faulty logic and attacked me with it. You are pissed your own logic was used against you. Sorry but if you are going to use such logic I will use it back at you to show just how flawed it is and drive that point home.
I know I am not perfect. But none the less its funny that you try to claim I think that.
Respect? Oh please I do not need your respect or would I want it.
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This is my last comment because I am sooooo bored with this!! Whatever we say bigsky has his own answer for it. The studies that have been done are very few and have been done on a small group of people where nobody knows the age of the patients or their other medical conditions. Dialysis has not limited my husband in any way or has it limited many people on this site.!!! He is much more able to enjoy life since dialysis especially hemo!! Hubby does home hemo and if he ever has to go back to in center he will eat the same as he always did!!! He was in center for 6 years and never ever saw anybody have any problems with eating or drinking anything!!
That is the whole point to this conversation. IF your hubby has to go back in-center and they have banned food and drink how will you cope?
We need to stop this freight train now. Next they will ban blankets and cell phones and ipods and DVD players. They will give us all lobotomies and collect our Medicare payment.
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Thread locked - okarol/admin