Obama??

[paris]

Mimi, that was a pretty open statement about African-Americans.  Didn't sound like your usual self.  You don't know who is what race on this forum or religious group.  Maybe your statement is about my race, my children, my life.      This is certainly going to be a long election year. 

[st789]

All candidates speak greatly of their plans but can they actually make it happen?

[Sluff]

Just for the record, my reason for not voting at this point for Obama has nothing to do with race. Same as my reason for not voting for Clinton has nothing to do with gender. There is still a lot of learning to do on all candidates. Anyone I would vote for to be my Commander in chief absolutely needs to believe the way I do. We all have our own reasons for why we vote the way we do.

[paris]

You're right Sluff. I will keep reading, vote and then I always support (may not agree) our President, who ever it may be. 

[xtrememoosetrax]

Mimi, that was a pretty open statement about African-Americans.  Didn't sound like your usual self.  You don't know who is what race on this forum or religious group.  Maybe your statement is about my race, my children, my life. 

Once again, well said, Paris.  Sometimes the things people say just make my heart hurt.  But I keep reminding myself that all kinds of good people have all kinds of opinions about things, and that's okay.  Just gotta keep on lovin' (or at least trying ).

[glitter]

Mimi, that was a pretty open statement about African-Americans.  Didn't sound like your usual self.  You don't know who is what race on this forum or religious group.  Maybe your statement is about my race, my children, my life.      This is certainly going to be a long election year. 

people should be able to discuss this without it being racsist...her statement had a lot of truth in it....its one thing to be proud of your heritage and race- she was not smiting the African-American race, she was pointing out if whites had an all white school or 'whatever' they get sued for discrimination- but if Blacks exclude whites its 'okay.'

Everyone wants to be this and that- why can't we all be Americans....just Americans- not black, or mexican or whatever race you are- I am an American who happens to be Russian, my neighbor is an American- who happens to be German- he does not call himself a German-American, I am not a Russian-American. We are just Americans.  Why can't Blacks from Africa- who are Americans- be Americans from Africa? and so on .....and why is this wrong?

 Obama at first- I did not think of him as a Black American- just an American who happens to be black.  I will not vote for him-  I wouldn't care if he was purple- if his ideology was the same as mine he would get my vote. Unfortunatly the field of candidates pretty much sucks this time.

[xtrememoosetrax]

[she was not smiting the African-American race, she was pointing out if whites had an all white school or 'whatever' they get sued for discrimination- but if Blacks exclude whites its 'okay.'

The difference lies in the fact that, historically, in this country, whites have been the oppressing race, i.e., black slavery (not white slavery) was legal up until 1863, and many other kinds of discrimination were not only legal but also legally enforced only 50 years ago. Even though we like to think that's all in the past now, it's still a huge historical fact that impacts us today. 

Historically, African American churches were a place of refuge for black American slaves to support one another and regain some dignity in the midst of life circumstances that were terribly degrading and inhumane.  They continue to serve a similar purpose today for black Americans living in a society that wants to think it is race-neutral -- and is trying to be -- but isn't, yet. 

[Bajanne]

[she was not smiting the African-American race, she was pointing out if whites had an all white school or 'whatever' they get sued for discrimination- but if Blacks exclude whites its 'okay.'

The difference lies in the fact that, historically, in this country, whites have been the oppressing race, i.e., black slavery (not white slavery) was legal up until 1863, and many other kinds of discrimination were not only legal but also legally enforced only 50 years ago. Even though we like to think that's all in the past now, it's still a huge historical fact that impacts us today. 

Historically, African American churches were a place of refuge for black American slaves to support one another and regain some dignity in the midst of life circumstances that were terribly degrading and inhumane.  They continue to serve a similar purpose today for black Americans living in a society that wants to think it is race-neutral -- and is trying to be -- but isn't, yet. 

These are by far the most balanced and informed and commonsense statements I have heard for a long time, from both Paris and xtrememoosetrax. 
I hesitate to put in my two cents since I knew I would be unable to be unbiased, as an African Caribbean person, and a moderator of this site.  So I am just thankful that some people said what I was thinking and what I know to be true.

[Mimi]

Mimi, that was a pretty open statement about African-Americans.  Didn't sound like your usual self.  You don't know who is what race on this forum or religious group.  Maybe your statement is about my race, my children, my life.      This is certainly going to be a long election year. 

Paris, sweetie, you lost what I was trying to say.  What I meant was why can't we all just be Americans (Thanks Glitter)
We have come to the point in our history of civil rights that all men, red, yellow, black or white should be able to
participate in whatever is going on.  It should not be this is a black beauty pageant or this is a white church, it
should just be this is a beauty pageant or this is a church.  Come one, come all.  If I offended anyone, it was not my
intention.  In my study of history, my heart has bled at the treatment of slaves.  I do believe that everyone has a right to civil liberties and I am NOT trying to fight the Civil War again even tho I am from Georgia.  As for Obama I think he is a very smart and levelheaded young man  However I do not feel he has quite enough experience at this point in time
to be President of our United States.  In a few years I am sure I will feel different.  And he sure can make some good speeches.  Whoever is elected I hope and pray can get our country straighteded out.  As Obama says - Yes We Can -
if we all pull together.

Love to All,
Mimi

[Sluff]

The fact that I won't vote for Obama has nothing to do with race, just as the reason I won't vote for Clinton has nothing to do with gender.

The more we learn about the people who are running for the presidency could change my mind at a later date.  For now that's how I feel.

There is a lot of slander from all parties and we need to dig into the facts instead of the hype.

[paris]

Thanks Mimi---I guess I read it wrong.  I believe so much in a global community and live my life accordingly.  I celebrated Hanukkah with my family's closest friends each year (they came to church with us on Christmas Eve), we have inter-racial marriages in our family, I have had many Muslim students in my classes, and my best friend is the most stereotype Southern Baptists ever.   What it all has taught me is how much we are the same.     The thought I always go back to is that our country has survived every single administration so far and we will continue as a nation no matter who wins the election.  I am glad we live in a country where we can have different opinions and choices.   

[BigSky]

[she was not smiting the African-American race, she was pointing out if whites had an all white school or 'whatever' they get sued for discrimination- but if Blacks exclude whites its 'okay.'

The difference lies in the fact that, historically, in this country, whites have been the oppressing race, i.e., black slavery (not white slavery) was legal up until 1863, and many other kinds of discrimination were not only legal but also legally enforced only 50 years ago. Even though we like to think that's all in the past now, it's still a huge historical fact that impacts us today. 

Historically, African American churches were a place of refuge for black American slaves to support one another and regain some dignity in the midst of life circumstances that were terribly degrading and inhumane.  They continue to serve a similar purpose today for black Americans living in a society that wants to think it is race-neutral -- and is trying to be -- but isn't, yet. 

If all white schools or whatever are discriminatory and racist, then all black schools or whatever are discriminatory and racist also.

One does not get to claim exception to that and try to use history to justify it.

[xtrememoosetrax]

We have come to the point in our history of civil rights that all men, red, yellow, black or white should be able to
participate in whatever is going on. 

Yes, and the operative word here is "should."  This is the way we would like it to be, the way things "should" be, but we're not there yet; it's an ongoing process that is -- like it not, BigSky -- rooted in history. 

Faced with all those many, many years of being barred -- either de jure or de facto -- from "regular" white American churches, schools, social clubs, beauty pageants, etc., black Americans could either: a) not do any of these things, or b) set up shop separately.  Generally, the option chosen was "b," and white America was quite satisfied with this situation for a long time.  Over the decades, these churches, schools, clubs, etc., became living institutions in their own right, with their own history, traditions, culture, etc.  And now they're supposed to just shut their doors? 

Mimi, I don't know where you live, but I would venture to guess that there is more than one of your "brand" of church, whether it be Baptist, Presbyterian, or whatever, in your town.  So why doesn't your church just close up shop and join in with the rest of your co-religionists -- why can't you all go to the same church?  I can think of several reasons why a person might not want to do this:  I like the church I'm going to, I know and like the people here, I don't know anybody over there, the other church is in a part of town that is far away and difficult to get to.  Sounds reasonable to me.  So why is it that black Americans are now supposed to shut down the spiritual and social communities they have created -- in response to terrible injustice, I might add -- to go to churches in neighborhoods where they may not have even been allowed to live until recently?  Or, conversely, all the white churches could shut down so everybody could go to the traditionally black churches.  Can you really imagine a lot of white folks driving over to the "bad" part of town where blacks were traditionally forced to live, to go to church?  I can't. 

Unfortunately, it's a crazy situation that we, all Americans, are in, and there's nothing much about it that makes a whole lot of sense.  All we can do is try to fix it, little by little, and try to be compassionate to one another in the process.  By being compassionate, I mean trying to imagine ourselves in someone else's shoes and remembering how we got to where we are now.

[paris]

Good words, xtrmemoosetrax.  I would vote for you for President!   

[Sluff]

xtrememoosetrax, you are very right, and I think some people would vote for Obama strictly to drive home the point that, there are a lot less white americans that are as predjudice as they once were. Maybe I'm wrong but thats the way I see it.

[Sluff]

Did I miss the point, is it because he doesn't have his hand on his heart that you wouldn't vote for him?

That is my point among other reasons. I want someone who believes in what is right.

First we were expected to accept the removal of prayer in our schools, then the right to discipline our children was taken away and now we have skyrocketed adolescent crime, without rambling on I think you get the picture, and now we have someone who is suppose to be asking for the Americans vote to hold the highest office in our Country, and he can not follow a tradition of respect, or are we supposed to accept that if the President doesn't hold his hand to his heart as a sign of respect to our country, then I guess we can't hold our children accountable when they decide they don't want to do it either. Oh that's right it is a free country, FREE does not mean that it's a free for all. What kind of Country will we become, when everyone just does things the way they want and not respecting Honor and Tradition. Just my 

[xtrememoosetrax]

What kind of Country will we become, when everyone just does things the way they want and not respecting Honor and Tradition.

Good question.  Here's another one:  What kind of country HAVE we become when our government is imprisoning people indefinitely with no charges against them, without right to legal representation, and torturing them on top of that?  Talk about not respecting honor and tradition; all of these practices fly in the face of what our country's founders were trying to achieve, in addition to giving the lie to our country's pretense of being some kind of moral leader of the free world.  Now that's something to be upset about.  

[xtrememoosetrax]

Or here's another way of looking at it.  If we always respected tradition, slavery would still be legal, and only white men who owned property would be able to vote!  So that whole tradition argument is a double-edged sword.  The fact is that some traditions are not worthy of our honor or respect.  Again, my  .

[Joe Paul]

Or here's another way of looking at it.  If we always respected tradition, slavery would still be legal, and only white men who owned property would be able to vote!  So that whole tradition argument is a double-edged sword.  The fact is that some traditions are not worthy of our honor or respect.  Again, my  .

Very wrong, have you forgotten the Civil war?

[glitter]

What kind of Country will we become, when everyone just does things the way they want and not respecting Honor and Tradition.

Good question.  Here's another one:  What kind of country HAVE we become when our government is imprisoning people indefinitely with no charges against them, without right to legal representation, and torturing them on top of that?  Talk about not respecting honor and tradition; all of these practices fly in the face of what our country's founders were trying to achieve, in addition to giving the lie to our country's pretense of being some kind of moral leader of the free world.  Now that's something to be upset about.  

now, how can you take a debate about one thing- and interject an entirely different subject?  Wether torture is effective, and legal is an entirely different debate.
Plus that is your opinion- I do not agree with you.

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=3086.0

[Sluff]

This subject has become a snickers bar. No matter how you slice it, it comes up peanuts.

[xtrememoosetrax]

now, how can you take a debate about one thing- and interject an entirely different subject? Wether torture is effective, and legal is an entirely different debate.
Plus that is your opinion- I do not agree with you.

http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=3086.0

Yes, I had second thoughts about the wisdom of my last post(s), as I know that the torture issue has been discussed in another thread. Got a little carried away there. My better judgment, which almost ALWAYS wins, lost this round. Anyway, sorry -- didn't mean to take this thread off topic.

This subject has become a snickers bar. No matter how you slice it, it comes up peanuts.

Ain't that the truth?

[BigSky]

Yes, and the operative word here is "should."  This is the way we would like it to be, the way things "should" be, but we're not there yet; it's an ongoing process that is -- like it not, BigSky -- rooted in history. 

Faced with all those many, many years of being barred -- either de jure or de facto -- from "regular" white American churches, schools, social clubs, beauty pageants, etc., black Americans could either: a) not do any of these things, or b) set up shop separately.  Generally, the option chosen was "b," and white America was quite satisfied with this situation for a long time.  Over the decades, these churches, schools, clubs, etc., became living institutions in their own right, with their own history, traditions, culture, etc.  And now they're supposed to just shut their doors? 

Either open up to all or YES shut their doors.

Racist and discriminatory applies EQUALLY to all no matter the history.

[Bill Peckham]

Yes, and the operative word here is "should."  This is the way we would like it to be, the way things "should" be, but we're not there yet; it's an ongoing process that is -- like it not, BigSky -- rooted in history. 

Faced with all those many, many years of being barred -- either de jure or de facto -- from "regular" white American churches, schools, social clubs, beauty pageants, etc., black Americans could either: a) not do any of these things, or b) set up shop separately.  Generally, the option chosen was "b," and white America was quite satisfied with this situation for a long time.  Over the decades, these churches, schools, clubs, etc., became living institutions in their own right, with their own history, traditions, culture, etc.  And now they're supposed to just shut their doors? 

Either open up to all or YES shut their doors.

Racist and discriminatory applies EQUALLY to all no matter the history.

What institutions are you thinking of Bigsky? You could go to Howard University if you wanted to (and have the grades) - I'd even chip in for your tuition. People of any sort are welcome at the so called black churches that I know of its just that most other sorts choose not to go.

[Mimi]

Mimi, I don't know where you live, but I would venture to guess that there is more than one of your "brand" of church, whether it be Baptist, Presbyterian, or whatever, in your town.  So why doesn't your church just close up shop and join in with the rest of your co-religionists -- why can't you all go to the same church?  I can think of several reasons why a person might not want to do this:  I like the church I'm going to, I know and like the people here, I don't know anybody over there, the other church is in a part of town that is far away and difficult to get to.  Sounds reasonable to me.  So why is it that black Americans are now supposed to shut down the spiritual and social communities they have created -- in response to terrible injustice, I might add -- to go to churches in neighborhoods where they may not have even been allowed to live until recently?  Or, conversely, all the white churches could shut down so everybody could go to the traditionally black churches.  Can you really imagine a lot of white folks driving over to the "bad" part of town where blacks were traditionally forced to live, to go to church?  I can't. 

No where in my post did I mention anything should be closed down, my dear.  What I implied was that everything
should be opened up.  To every color and race.  Along with open arms and open hearts.  Racism has been going on all throughout history.  Remember Hitler and the Jews?  He didn't bother to make them slaves, he just killed them.
At least in America we are working on it.  It may be a slow go, but some day it will happen.  I don't believe any race should have to give up their heritage, but I also don't believe that heritage should be used in hate and punishment
to the decendents coming down from all races.  And look folks, sarcasim doesn't fit into a discussion such as this one.

Love You All,
Mimi