The war in Iraq infuriates me!

[Bill Peckham]

It has been reported (officially by the Bush administration) that the shells in question constitute old artillery shells manufactured before 1991. The degraded sarin nerve agent and mustard blister agent contained in those shells had long since lost their viability, and as such represented no threat whatsoever.

Is Cheney part of the “left fabrication” machine? “Cheney, appearing on Rush Limbaugh's radio program, repeated his allegation that al-Qaeda was operating inside Iraq "before we ever launched" the war, under the direction of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the terrorist killed last June. "This is al-Qaeda operating in Iraq," Cheney told Limbaugh's listeners about Zarqawi, who he said had "led the charge for Iraq." Cheney cited the alleged history to illustrate his argument that withdrawing U.S. forces from Iraq would "play right into the hands of al-Qaeda."

Cheney made that statement the day after “The declassified version of the report, by acting Inspector General Thomas F. Gimble, also contains new details about the intelligence community's prewar consensus that the Iraqi government and al-Qaeda figures had only limited contacts, and about its judgments that reports of deeper links were based on dubious or unconfirmed information. The report had been released in summary form in February.”
Read the whole article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/05/AR2007040502263.html?hpid=topnews

Then there is the so called One Percent Doctrine which has been discredited by events. Do you really believe that the One Percent Doctrine will last beyond this administration? Or has been applied anywhere other than Iraq? If the One Percent Doctrine was really informing administration policy wouldn't the fight against Global Warming caused by humans be at the top of the adminstration's agenda?

Bigsky are you pro Ron Paul? I saw where he came out against the Federal Reserve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4kxTkhwR_Q

[JerseyGirl]

You go, Big Sky!  To Bill, I am surprised such an intelligent person such as yourself can't see that the main stream media portraits such a grim picture of Iraq to promote their own agenda and shape our perceptions to fit their agenda. I am actually surprised you think they HAVE no agenda!   For years the Clinton administration ignored terrorist acts such as the first World Trade Center bombings, Kenya, Lebanon, USS Cole and now the current administration has to right their mistakes.  I am proud of George W.Bush, a man willing to stand up and do what needed to be done and stick to his convictions instead of swaying to the wind, as President Clinton did.  Why do you think that since 9/11 we have not had any attacks on our soil?  Luck?  I think not.  How quick you forget September 11, 2001.  I grew up seeing the World Trade Center being built, and it breaks my heart not to see those towers on the New York skyline when I go home to New Jersey.  Jeez, these people want to kill us, and destroy every thing America stands for.  Speak to anyone returning from Iraq regarding the press and what they report - it is the total opposite of what the MSM reports.  I would rather fight them over there than have them kill our citizens here.  Bush isn't perfect - far from it - but I feel he is the right man for this battle.  As far as WMD Saddam used them against his own people, for goodness sake - that's a fact.  What makes you think he didn't have them?  BTW he sent them to Syria -he had enough time between the UN dragging their feet with the sanctions.  I say, go W, and God Bless America and our Troups!

[thegrammalady]

people will believe what they want irregardless of the truth, which is often somewhere in the middle.   

[BigSky]

It has been reported (officially by the Bush administration) that the shells in question constitute old artillery shells manufactured before 1991. The degraded sarin nerve agent and mustard blister agent contained in those shells had long since lost their viability, and as such represented no threat whatsoever.

1991?  Really 

Of course, this whole thing been going on since 1991, when Saddam offered up the cease fire for the first Gulf War, so why wouldn't the shells be from 1991.  You might note that those shells were claimed to have been destroyed by Saddam back in the mid 90's.  Funny how they were found among many others also that were in bunkers built as late as 1998.  Also you might note not all those shells were degraded to the point of not being a threat, just for the fact that when the terrorists used one in Iraq as an IED two US soldiers had to be treated for sarin exposure.  Also of fact is that we had to destroy banned equipment that Saddam had rebuilt.  You might note this equipment was first destroyed by the UN back in the 90's and Saddam violated resolutions and rebuilt it.

Is Cheney part of the “left fabrication” machine? “Cheney, appearing on Rush Limbaugh's radio program, repeated his allegation that al-Qaeda was operating inside Iraq "before we ever launched" the war, under the direction of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the terrorist killed last June. "This is al-Qaeda operating in Iraq," Cheney told Limbaugh's listeners about Zarqawi, who he said had "led the charge for Iraq." Cheney cited the alleged history to illustrate his argument that withdrawing U.S. forces from Iraq would "play right into the hands of al-Qaeda."

Hate to tell you this Bill but Al-Qaeda was operating in Iraq long before the war.  They have been in Iraq since at least 1993.  Saddam worked with Bin Laden despite the loony left claiming otherwise.  From Saddams own son making the claim to the fact that the London Telegraph uncovered documents during the invasion that clearly showed Al-Qaeda and Iraq meeting despite that fact Saddam was banned from doing any such thing.  Limited contact my rear.  The very fact that Atta met with Iraqi Intelligence says to the different, the very fact that the 93 WTC was committed by Ramzi Yousef  AKA the Iraqi and that Saddam gave safe harbor of the Al-Qaeda agent who fled the US after the bombing says different.   Just why do you think we bombed in Sudan?

Not to mention the fact that the link was strong enough that the Justice Department made the link twice in the 90's and put it down in a federal indictment!

Then there is the so called One Percent Doctrine which has been discredited by events. Do you really believe that the One Percent Doctrine will last beyond this administration? Or has been applied anywhere other than Iraq? If the One Percent Doctrine was really informing administration policy wouldn't the fight against Global Warming caused by humans be at the top of the adminstration's agenda?

Good golly,   I am surprised you had the gumption to hold of mentioning global warming until now.   

[JerseyGirl]

Let's see, Al Qaeda was in Afganistan, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Lebanon, but NOT Iraq?  What's wrong with this picture, Bill?

[Bill Peckham]

That was a declassified Defense Department report that discounted Hussein's prewar ties to Al-Qaeda.

Entire books have been researched based on interviews with Bremmer and others on the ground in Iraq. That Salon article points to scores of documents released by the Coallition's own interim administration that were accidentally released as Word documents with all the previous draft language included before it was scrubbed - these redacted comments clearly show that this information was know at the time by those in charge, yet the public spin continued, clear evidence that what was coming from official channels was spin. Where is your evidence that the "media" knew what they were reporting was false?

It's silly to justify our Iraq project because of anger over 9/11. It is bad policy to lump every Muslim with a gun into a single bucket labled "terrorist". If anyother person had been president on 9/11 the US would be in much stronger postion today.

Bigsky: you don't think there is a One Percent chance that global warming caused by humans is real?

[JerseyGirl]

Again, Al Qaeda was in Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, Afganistan, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia but NOT in Iraq?  Hmmm...
Thank God George Bush was in office on 9/11 - the thought of Gore as POTUS sends shivers down my spine...divine intervention. 

[BigSky]

That was a declassified Defense Department report that discounted Hussein's prewar ties to Al-Qaeda.

Entire books have been researched based on interviews with Bremmer and others on the ground in Iraq. That Salon article points to scores of documents released by the Coallition's own interim administration that were accidentally released as Word documents with all the previous draft language included before it was scrubbed - these redacted comments clearly show that this information was know at the time by those in charge, yet the public spin continued, clear evidence that what was coming from official channels was spin. Where is your evidence that the "media" knew what they were reporting was false?

It's silly to justify our Iraq project because of anger over 9/11. It is bad policy to lump every Muslim with a gun into a single bucket labled "terrorist". If anyother person had been president on 9/11 the US would be in much stronger postion today.

Bigsky: you don't think there is a One Percent chance that global warming caused by humans is real?

No one has lumped any muslims as terrorists. 

Saddam has a long freaking history of being a terrorist and trying to commit and committing terrorist acts on the US.   

Unless you are trying to claim some huge conspiracy that started with the Clinton Administration putting the Iraqi Liberation Act into law and submitting by your reckoning a false indictment linking Osama and Saddam?

Any other person president?  You are full of s***.    There were only two others who could have  been president.   gore and kerry.  One who fell in line with Clinton in not fighting terrorism and another wafflecone who claimed he was for and against the war all at the same time.


Ohh you just been itching to bring global warming up.  Burning a hole in your pocket it was.

[Black]

... Bigsky: you don't think there is a One Percent chance that global warming caused by humans is real?

I'm not Bigsky, but if you want to start a thread about "Global Warming", I'm game, especially since this thread is close to checkmate. 

[George Jung]

... Bigsky: you don't think there is a One Percent chance that global warming caused by humans is real?

I'm not Bigsky, but if you want to start a thread about "Global Warming", I'm game, especially since this thread is close to checkmate. 

I'm not Bill, but I would like to hear what others have to say about Global Warming.  Who wants to start?

[Black]

... Bigsky: you don't think there is a One Percent chance that global warming caused by humans is real?

I'm not Bigsky, but if you want to start a thread about "Global Warming", I'm game, especially since this thread is close to checkmate. 

I'm not Bill, but I would like to hear what others have to say about Global Warming.  Who wants to start?

I'll start.

[Bill Peckham]

Again, Al Qaeda was in Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, Afganistan, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia but NOT in Iraq?  Hmmm...
Thank God George Bush was in office on 9/11 - the thought of Gore as POTUS sends shivers down my spine...divine intervention. 

I think there are the main players and the pretenders. The best analogy is to the Mafia in America - there is a clear hierarchy here. The al qaeda Capos were all in the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan in 2002 when the administration decided to deemphasize the fight against the people who attacked us on 9/11 and instead focus on toppling Saddam.

If #41 was president on 9/11 we'd be in a much better position. If the McCain of 2000 was president on 9/11 we'd be in a much better position - I blame the voters of South Carolina for the mess we're in (because of the 2000 Republican primary). If Gore was president on 9/11 we'd be in a much better position - for that I blame the SCOTUS

[Black]

Again, Al Qaeda was in Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia but NOT in Iraq?  Hmmm...
Thank God George Bush was in office on 9/11 - the thought of Gore as POTUS sends shivers down my spine...divine intervention. 

... I blame the voters of South Carolina for the mess we're in (because of the 2000 Republican primary). If Gore was president on 9/11 we'd be in a much better position - for that I blame the SCOTUS

Two quick points before I proceed: 

1) OK, as a South Carolina voter, if we get to take credit for McCain losing ...  then, "Hooray, for us!" 

2) McCain is, other than his stance on most military issues, a RINO.

Now to the rest:  You "blame" the SCOTUS?  For declaring that FL law in force at the time the election took place had to be followed?  You can't retroactively change a state law.  Do you know what ex post facto means?  There has been plenty of time for change in FL since the libs tried to steal the election by retroactively changing the law governing an election after the fact; have they?

Oh, and BTW, there was a recount done months after the fact, I think it was paid for by about 20 or so entities, mostly media related, and the margin of victory for President Bush was larger.  Not only that, there was no evidence of anyone being blocked from voting and no evidence of tampering ever produced, despite Jesse Jackson's claims and tantrums.  There were some minor procedural changes made in one county (maybe two?), so he would shut up and go home.

I also believe Al Gore would have been worse than Jimmy Carter; we do not need a socialist tree hugger in the WH.  If you are old enough to remember the employment figures and interest rates 5 times higher than today, you know what a catastrophe Carter was.  I knew we were in trouble before he was elected because we took our vacation in GA that year and NOT ONE person we spoke to during the entire week said they were going to vote for him after experiencing him a gov.  Dad asked person after person, "Who are you going to vote for?" hotel clerks, other guests, waitresses, gas station attendants, attraction staff, and not one said Carter.  In Florida, when we returned home, Carter was the man of the hour.  Yep, we knew we were in trouble when the people of his home state, who knew him best, didn't like him.  That was the first year Mom and Dad voted Republican.  BTW, Gore didn't carry his home state either did he?

Just to satisfy my curiosity what would Gore have done after 9/11?  Raised taxes and made the recession turn into a depression?  Worn a keffiyeh and tried to talk the terrorists into "making nice"?  What would he have done about Saddam shooting at US planes in Iraq?  Waited until the pilot death toll was an international disgrace?  Would Saddam still be allowing terrorists to train in Iraq? killing the Kurds by the thousands?  raising terrorists grandsons skilled in torture? still defying the UN?  I know it's pure conjecture, but what do you think Gore would have done other than preach his silly global warming theories?

[Bill Peckham]

I just got home from a quick trip to Chicago but I was thinking that if the 2000 election had gone to Gore we'd be having some other political discussion on IHD.

Someone would have started a post saying $5.00 gas infuriates me. And I would of said well after 9/11 it was necessary to get us off oil and then you might have written back about how anyone but Gore would have made a better President on 9/11 especially George Bush.

The I would have written I believe George Bush would have been worse than Richard Nixon; we do not need another dictator in the White House.  If you are old enough to remember the plumbers, the secret bombing of Cambodia and a politicized Department of Justice, then you know what a catastrophe Nixon was. 

Just to satisfy my curiosity what would Bush have done after 9/11 I imagined he won in 2000.  He would have asked not asked a single thing of the general public, not a single gas consumption tax. In fact every year after 9/11 our consumption of oil would have increased!  Instead of running down the price of a barrel of oil through international agreements by all nations to use less oil, oil would be over $60 a barrel - not less than $20. Bush would have held hands with the Saudis while immense flow of petrol dollars flowed into the Middle East. And I bet he would have started wide spread domestic spying on the general public taking his role as commander in chief to the extreme that he would decide he could do what ever he wanted - the Republican Congress would have exercised no oversight during a BUsh presidency, as opposed the vigorous oversight we've had these last six years.

Instead of stabilizing Afghanistan and pressuring Iran to end their nuclear program he would have invaded Iraq.  I'm serious - I know it sounds crazy but I bet he'd have done it. We'd be putting all our energy into picking sides in an Iraqi civil war while OBL regrouped in the Pakistani Tribal Areas (don't think so? Just look at the history of the Wahabis in British India - I'm sure if he had been given half a chance OBL would be rebuilding his organization in Wazerstan, repeating history).  We'd be torturing or at least aggressively interrogating people picked off the street by which ever sect we aligned with in Iraq, meanwhile the vice president would be funneling money to his old company Halibuton. In fact I bet they'd set up a private army outside the military's normal chain of command. After four years we'd have killed Iraqis by the tens of thousands , raising generations of terrorists and their grandsons skilled in torture. By now we would have alienated our historic allies while paying off young regimes in eastern Europe to set up secret prisons where we'd "interrogate" people snatched off the streets in European capitols. By now a president Bush would have turned every department of government into a republican hack factory - in fact I bet a president Bush would have combined a bunch of disparate federal agencies into some giant dysfunctional super agency. And called it something ridiculous like Fatherland Security or Homeland Security. I bet a president Bush wouldn't have even secured the ports or the critical infrastructure - you'd probably have to remove your shoes at airports but entire containers would still be coming into the country unchecked.

I know it's pure conjecture, but what do you think Bush would have done other than preach his silly compassionate conservatism theories?

[Sluff]

Posted by OKarol in another thread.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ervaMPt4Ha0&autoplay=1

[George Jung]

The war was never about significant weapons programs. 

Someone sure made it seem like it was.  No one got the idea on their own.

I am actually surprised you think they HAVE no agenda!

And you don't think Bush and his administration have an agenda of their own. 

Simply because we have had no attacks on our soil does not indicate that we would have otherwise.  We can't say how other precautions would have worked because we didn't try them. 

You George W supporters are either blind as bats or I don't even know what....loony.  Hasn't he been on more vacations than recent presidents in history?  During a war that he is responsible for?  It is a wonder to me how he has any supporters remaining whatsoever.

Bill, I really enjoyed that last post of yours.  I think you are on the money brother!

[skillpete]

What is wrong with everyone? don't you know Iraq is Cinton's fault!, so is global warming and flooding. The other day I got a flat.....guess who's fault.......you got it CLINTON! and an old lady cut the line at the supermarket.......that was Hillary, these rotten terrorists are Clinton's fault too and Saddam planned 9/11 in his basement with Jimmy Carter and Michael Moore. These stinken liberals will stop at nothing, thank god for George Bush or we would've never found the mustard gas, THE DREDDED POISONESS MUSTARD GAS!!, that mustard gas will kill us all look what it did in WW1 for crying out loud. Thank god (and Mexico) that we're fighting them there! and that there hasn't been another attack on our soil, who cares about England and Spain, as long as it wasn't here. And thank heavens Gore wasn't elected (or was he?) because if he was, we could blame more non-occurrences on him. Oh the humanity.

[glitter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw8TCCkvnkQ

[Bill Peckham]

non sequitur alert

[BigSky]

Someone sure made it seem like it was.  No one got the idea on their own.

Only to those that pay attention to events as they unfolded. 

Even the UN weapons inspector said Saddam refused to comply despite the UN, France, Germany and Russia lowering the bar for Saddam to comply and that it would take war to enforce the UN "threats" from the past 12 years. 

I am actually surprised you think they HAVE no agenda!

And you don't think Bush and his administration have an agenda of their own. 

Simply because we have had no attacks on our soil does not indicate that we would have otherwise.  We can't say how other precautions would have worked because we didn't try them. 

Actually it does.  It shows the path taken in fighting terrorism by Clinton/Gore was severely flawed and that while we may not be on a perfect course in fighting terrorism it is a hell of alot better than it was before.

[George Jung]

Actually it does. It shows the path taken in fighting terrorism by Clinton/Gore was severely flawed and that while we may not be on a perfect course in fighting terrorism it is a hell of alot better than it was before.

NO.  It doesn't.  You cannot say how we would have faired using a different attack because we did not try anything else post 9/11.  You always go back to Clinton administration and bash him and blame him.  Your "hero" (my words) was the one in office for 9/11 and saw an opportunity.  He put us in this situation today.  No one can say, "that wouldn't work", (I'm not talking pre 9/11.  You can't talk pre 9/11 because thats not what we are talking about.  There is a possibility that another strategy would have been more successful wheather you want to see that or not.) because we never tried anything.....we just went to freakin' war.  Meanwhile Mr. G W is vacationing it up and screwing over a nation.  There is little doubt in my mind that that slimy little prick has his own little side agenda while he was/is making decisions for our country.

[BigSky]

NO.  It doesn't.  You cannot say how we would have faired using a different attack because we did not try anything else post 9/11.  You always go back to Clinton administration and bash him and blame him.  Your "hero" (my words) was the one in office for 9/11 and saw an opportunity.  He put us in this situation today.  No one can say, "that wouldn't work", (I'm not talking pre 9/11.  You can't talk pre 9/11 because thats not what we are talking about.  There is a possibility that another strategy would have been more successful wheather you want to see that or not.) because we never tried anything.....we just went to freakin' war.  Meanwhile Mr. G W is vacationing it up and screwing over a nation.  There is little doubt in my mind that that slimy little prick has his own little side agenda while he was/is making decisions for our country.

Its pretty easy to say it.  History is very clear on the matter.

We sat back and played defense and it didn't work.  Bush added a little offense to the playbook and we are now keeping terrorism at bay and are winning.

As to Iraq.
We tried using peace over and over and over.  12+ years in fact we tried peaceful methods to get Saddam to comply.  IT FAILED!!!! 

Saddam made threats, attacks on us and had more planned and we acted.  We took out the government of Afghanistan just for refusing to turn over bin laden.  Do you really think we were going to let Saddam continue to attack and plan more attacks on us?  Really now.

This war was not an overnight thing.  This thing has been building for well over 12 years.  There was a reason that Clinton signed the Iraqi Liberation Act instead of putting a veto on it!

[George Jung]

Its pretty easy to say it.  History is very clear on the matter.

We sat back and played defense and it didn't work.  Bush added a little offense to the playbook and we are now keeping terrorism at bay and are winning.

As to Iraq.
We tried using peace over and over and over.  12+ years in fact we tried peaceful methods to get Saddam to comply.  IT FAILED!!!! 

Saddam made threats, attacks on us and had more planned and we acted.  We took out the government of Afghanistan just for refusing to turn over bin laden.  Do you really think we were going to let Saddam continue to attack and plan more attacks on us?  Really now.

This war was not an overnight thing.  This thing has been building for well over 12 years.  There was a reason that Clinton signed the Iraqi Liberation Act instead of putting a veto on it!

I am referring to a "history" that never was.  We (our government) reacted to 9/11 by invading Iraq (regardless of what had been building up).  That was our only reaction, we tried no other strategy after that event, just went straight to war.  Yes, Saddam needed to go and he has been gone for how long now, so all of this is not about Saddam.  It was evident that more needed to be done and there was/is a cause to fight for when the terrorist attacks took place on our soil, however there are other paths to follow, or better yet, we could have made our own path for others to follow, rather than jumping into a full on war that supposedly was over years ago (major operations and such).

I do not expect any different of a thought from you BigSky, your last post is dead on consistant with the rest of the blinded point of views you closely share with so few other Americans now.  Peace - George

[keefer51]

Here is a poem about war. It's called "Say it ain't so joe" I left for the bus with my family in tow. Had to defend my country i didn't want to go. My son looked at me holding back his tears. How long will i be gone, a few months, many years?  Standing tall in our uniform carring the burden of pain. Not allowing the thought, "Will i see you again." Let's say our goodbyes with a promise of a letter. Any kind of communique would make our lives better.  On the bus we go all feeling the same way. Not much conversation what could we say? We show our pictures of the family we will miss. I can't help but feel, "Was that our last kiss?" The scent of their skin is still on my shoulder. Tears on my face i wish i was bolder. We sat very still showing no emotion. Some one up front started a commotion.  We see the plane that will take us to our fate. The drill sergeant barks "Lets go don't be late." The plane is loud can't hear yourself talk. We're packed like sardines you can't even walk.  Many hours in flight finnaly see the sand. We touch down soft no welcome to war band. I grab my gear and feel the morning heat. Our boots hit the sand. Man, are we beat.  We sit in a tent the fans blow hot air. They scream at us we don't even care. The orders are given our bodies are spent. Can't figure out where all the time went.  Take a quick shower eat food that not ediable. Tomorow's the first day. That much is inevitable. We wake at 0400 put on our heavy pack. Not sure when the enemy is going to attack.  We walk for awhile our night goggles are on. All the stars in the sky are just about gone. I hear the shot before i feel the pain. Fall to the ground they start shooting again.  My legs have no feeling I guess this is the end. Someone picks me up "I got you my friend" To the tent i go to be fixed and mended. My poor friend Joe his short life has ended.  Who will tell his young wife and the babe thats not born? Your daddy was a good soldier. i'm sorry he is gone. They tell my wife, "No feeling from waist to feet." Never to walk again over my legs they put a sheet.  When i come home there will be some concern. With the wheel chair and tubes it's then that they learn. Is daddy still the man that he used to be? I roll over toward them so that they all can see.  The look on their faces i know what i must do. It's ok i say, i can still play with you. My wife looks on with fear in her eyes. Thankful that it isn't our finale goodbyes.  I met a man named joe he's no longer here. She touches my hand i feel he is near. We look to the heavens for a sign from above. A smile on our face our heart full of love.   Love, Keith.

[BigSky]

I am referring to a "history" that never was.  We (our government) reacted to 9/11 by invading Iraq (regardless of what had been building up).  That was our only reaction, we tried no other strategy after that event, just went straight to war.  Yes, Saddam needed to go and he has been gone for how long now, so all of this is not about Saddam.  It was evident that more needed to be done and there was/is a cause to fight for when the terrorist attacks took place on our soil, however there are other paths to follow, or better yet, we could have made our own path for others to follow, rather than jumping into a full on war that supposedly was over years ago (major operations and such).

I do not expect any different of a thought from you BigSky, your last post is dead on consistant with the rest of the blinded point of views you closely share with so few other Americans now.  Peace - George

Seems you never paid attention to events as they unfolded.   Sorry but it was not our only reaction, nor was it our first.  Far from it.  We pushed for UN inspectors to go back into Iraq to investigate and hold Saddam accountable for his failures.  So much so we even pressed the UN for one more chance for Saddam to comply via 1441.  We did not have to do that!  As per  prior resolutions we could "use any force necessary" to make Saddam comply with UN resolutions.  Even after Saddam balked at provisions of that we more than gave him time to leave Iraq or else.   Time and time again the world used threats of force against Saddam to try to make him comply and he essentially told the world to get bent.  There is no use making such threats if one doesnt have the backbone to back them up.  We backed them up.  The only problem is the US and the world dragged its feet far too long to hold saddam accountable thus letting hundreds of thousands die by Saddams hand during those years.

But hey, by all means lay out this plan that would have made  Saddam comply without force.  I mean after all the world only tried just about everything under the sun during those 12 years and it failed to make saddam comply. But come on now, lay out this master plan that would make him have complied.