The war in Iraq infuriates me!

[skillpete]

I like the people I work with,  but I learned not to talk politics with some of them because they INFURIATE ME! I think we're all entitled to our own opinions but when I hear people say that our country and the current administration is doing juuuuust fine and anyone who speaks against the war is against the troops or anti-American or a liberal or whatever bullcrap they hear on FOX news or from some talk radio host who's just following party lines. Meanwhile my nephew is serving his 3rd tour in Iraq, one of which was in Fallujah! I hate when people just repeat things they hear out of a playbook and have no knowledge from their own personal research. Instead of listening and watching only Right wing or only Left wing programs, all they have to do is watch both and use this great modern tool called the internet properly, or watch FRONLINE or PBS or the BBC and sometimes just read alot of articles and critically think things through and formulate an intelligent coherent opinion that corresponds with the events that are unfolding around us. We're the ones who pay ridiculous taxes and inflated gas prices, and don't even get me started on health care and stem cell research, why is religion involved in curing diseases! . I want our troops to come home safe and I want the foolishness and the brainwashing and the fear tactics and the lies to stop already!!!  I'm sorry if my opinions are strong,  I truly don't mean to offend anyone's political views , I'm just exercising my first amendment rights.   Thanx





EDITED: Removed All Caps From Subject Line - Sluff/ Administrator

[Sluff]

First of all I too have plenty of friends and Brothers fighting the war in Iraq. I am not condoning the war, but I do believe in supporting our troops and our Commander in Chief. Bottom line that's what we do, we don't run! 

[Duane]

My thought on the subject is to support our troops, government, and country but i don't support wrongful invasion of a country in the 21st century.
Our Government and Military call them "insurgents" and "terrorists" fighting U.S. military in there own country with there own lifestyles and beliefs against ours.

All these middle east countries have been around and managed to survive with there lifestyle thousands of years before America came on board as a country. Islam as a whole has been the dominate religion and way of life for most of the middle east close to two thousand years now by force.

No way were we suppose to invade Iraq blind folded and they warned us of that in advance and continue to warn us President Bush just say we made a mistake
and pull out





EDITED: Fixed  Icon - Sluff/ Admin

[Duane]

I wonder what the insurgents and terrorists call the American Military

[glitter]

I Support Our Troops!!! and I do not care what the terrorists call us




http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=3164.0

[Sara]

I'm not going to pretend I keep up to date on all the happenings in Iraq, but I know about WWII, and if someone had done something sooner, a whole lot of people probably would not have died.  I also struggle with my contradictory feelings...on one hand, they are their own country, who are we to say what they should or shouldn't do?  On the other hand, people's human rights were being violated on a massive scale, don't we (not we the US, but we the whole world) have a responsibility to step in and do something?  If you see a murder happening and just look the other way, aren't you morally and ethically guilty too?

[Rerun]

I like the people I work with,  but I learned not to talk politics with some of them because they INFURIATE ME! I think we're all entitled to our own opinions but when I hear people say that our country and the current administration is doing juuuuust fine and anyone who speaks against the war is against the troops or anti-American or a liberal or whatever bullcrap they hear on FOX news or from some talk radio host who's just following party lines. Meanwhile my nephew is serving his 3rd tour in Iraq, one of which was in Fallujah! I hate when people just repeat things they hear out of a playbook and have no knowledge from their own personal research. Instead of listening and watching only Right wing or only Left wing programs, all they have to do is watch both and use this great modern tool called the internet properly, or watch FRONLINE or PBS or the BBC and sometimes just read alot of articles and critically think things through and formulate an intelligent coherent opinion that corresponds with the events that are unfolding around us. We're the ones who pay ridiculous taxes and inflated gas prices, and don't even get me started on health care and stem cell research, why is religion involved in curing diseases! . I want our troops to come home safe and I want the foolishness and the brainwashing and the fear tactics and the lies to stop already!!!  I'm sorry if my opinions are strong,  I truly don't mean to offend anyone's political views , I'm just exercising my first amendment rights.   Thanx

So what does your nephew say?  Because my cousin says he is glad he/we are over there because they will be on our door step if we pull out. 

Should we have also ignored Europe when they were annihilating the Jews....just turned our heads?  If we are so tolerant then why can't they practice their beliefs over on our soil.  Just chop off heads of their own.  Because it is wrong and someone has to take charge.  I think we should just take them over.  They had their chance.

I have a right to my opinion too.  They don't in their country.  You choose.

[MattyBoy100]

I would like to say that the US didn't get involved in WWII in Europe until after Pearl Harbour. 

The US also didn't get involved with the mass genocide in Croatia.

Also, the US continues to fund Israel and turns a blind eye to their actions i.e. when they started a war against Hamas but justified murdering innocents in the process. 

All of these issues are complicated and many people will have their own opinions.  I for one, would like to see the UK pull our soldiers out and let the Iraqi's sort it out amongst themselves.  They don't really pose any major threat as a nation.  It is the terrorist groups that infiltrate the West that all the effort should be concentrated on and peace in Palestine.

[BigSky]

We dealt with Iraq for 12+ years and all that happened was time and time again Saddam would commit acts of war on the US in one form or another despite UN resolutions forbidding him threatening member states enforcing resolutions against him.

We all seen what a failure the policy of the 90's was with Al-Qaeda.  Attack after attack until they got lucky and pulled the big one on 9/11.

We could no longer use the wait as see policy with Iraq and hope they didnt get lucky and commit a similar attack.

What is happening now is a broader fight on terrorism. 

It is far better to fight them where they live, than to end up having them come here to fight them.  Currently the terrorists in Iraq stay mainly to guns and IED's.  If the fight comes to the mainland US they will not fight in the same manner.  They will resort to something much bigger and deadlier if the fight comes here.

[George Jung]

If the fight comes to the mainland US they will not fight in the same manner. They will resort to something much bigger and deadlier if the fight comes here.

Like the weapons of mass destruction that aren't?  I think that is nothing more than a scare tacktic and an excuse to go in for the oil.  Lets put the effort we spend in Iraq into our own country.

[BigSky]

Like the weapons of mass destruction that aren't?  I think that is nothing more than a scare tacktic and an excuse to go in for the oil.  Lets put the effort we spend in Iraq into our own country.

Again you are mistaken george.

There have been numerous wmd found and removed from Iraq.

Sarin, cyclosarin and mustard gas among many other things have been found and removed from Iraq.   Over 1,500 gallons of chemical weapons have been found and removed from Iraq.  Not to mention almost two tons of Uranium that Saddam claimed he NEVER had.   

[Bill Peckham]

This adventure has been a disaster, a self inflicted disaster and it has nothing to do with the troops. It has everything to do with the awful, awful leadership of this administration. A war czar!?! http://www.postchronicle.com/news/security/article_21281391.shtml this is not going to help.

Gen. David Petraeus is going to report on the progress of the permanent escalation surge in September. What's going to happen if, as looks more and more likely by the day, he reports that there isn't anything more militarily that can be done. There is no plan B.

What a disaster. And we still have another 17 months of these jokers.

[livecam]

This adventure has been a disaster, a self inflicted disaster and it has nothing to do with the troops. It has everything to do with the awful, awful leadership of this administration. A war czar!?! http://www.postchronicle.com/news/security/article_21281391.shtml this is not going to help.

Gen. David Petraeus is going to report on the progress of the permanent escalation surge in September. What's going to happen if, as looks more and more likely by the day, he reports that there isn't anything more militarily that can be done. There is no plan B.

What a disaster. And we still have another 17 months of these jokers.

Haha...and the same clowns are poised to screw us over on immigration.  Lots of legalized illegals, their babies, their parents, their poverty, and their disease all for you and me courtesy of the creeps in Washington.

[Bill Peckham]

I don't get this Immigration compromise maybe it's another thread but why exactly is having a US with a population of 350,000,000 better than having a US with a population of 300,000,000?? If there had been no immigration amnesty "fix" in 1986 (or 1965 for that matter) would the US, on balance, be a worse place to live?

Back to Iraq the whole story is coming out in dribs and drabs (just like the debacle at the Department of Justice) I think we'll see more things like this: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/05/18/cpa_documents/index1.html If only the administration could comprehend this sentiment from 2004 "It is nothing personal," the Iraqi says. "I like you and believe you could be bringing us a better future, but I still sympathize with those who attack the coalition because it is not right for Iraq to be occupied by foreign military forces."

The administration's world view is crashing down in flames, which puts us all in danger.

[Black]

April 12, 2006
Eye of the Beholder
by Victor Davis Hanson
The American Enterprise Online

War-torn Iraq has about 26 million residents, a peaceful California perhaps now 35 million. The former is a violent and impoverished landscape, the latter said to be paradise on Earth. But how you envision either place to some degree depends on the eye of the beholder and is predicated on what the daily media appear to make of each.

As a fifth-generation Californian, I deeply love this state, but still imagine what the reaction would be if the world awoke each morning to be told that once again there were six more murders, 27 rapes, 38 arsons, 180 robberies, and 360 instances of assault in California — yesterday, today, tomorrow, and every day. I wonder if the headlines would scream about “Nearly 200 poor Californians butchered again this month!”

How about a monthly media dose of “600 women raped in February alone!” Or try, “Over 600 violent robberies and assaults in March, with no end in sight!” Those do not even make up all of the state’s yearly 200,000 violent acts that law enforcement knows about.

Iraq’s judicial system seems a mess. On the eve of the war, Saddam let out 100,000 inmates from his vast prison archipelago. He himself still sits in the dock months after his trial began. But imagine an Iraq with a penal system like California’s with 170,000 criminals — an inmate population larger than those of Germany, France, the Netherlands, and Singapore combined.

Just to house such a shadow population costs our state nearly $7 billion a year — or about the same price of keeping 40,000 Army personnel per year in Iraq. What would be the image of our Golden State if we were reminded each morning, “Another $20 million spent today on housing our criminals”?

Some of California’s most recent prison scandals would be easy to sensationalize: “Guards watch as inmates are raped!” Or “Correction officer accused of having sex with underaged detainee!” And apropos of Saddam’s sluggish trial, remember that our home state multiple murderer, Tookie Williams, was finally executed in December 2005 — 26 years after he was originally sentenced.

Much is made of the inability to patrol Iraq’s borders with Iran, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Turkey. But California has only a single border with a foreign nation, not six. Yet over 3 million foreigners who snuck in illegally now live in our state. Worse, there are about 15,000 convicted alien felons incarcerated in our penal system, costing about $500 million a year. Imagine the potential tabloid headlines: “Illegal aliens in state comprise population larger than San Francisco!” or “Drugs, criminals, and smugglers given free pass into California!”

Every year, over 4,000 Californians die in car crashes — nearly twice the number of Americans lost so far in three years of combat operations in Iraq. In some sense, then, our badly maintained roads, and often poorly trained and sometimes intoxicated drivers, are even more lethal than Improvised Explosive Devices. Perhaps tomorrow’s headline might scream out at us: “300 Californians to perish this month on state highways! Hundreds more will be maimed and crippled!”

In 2001, California had 32 days of power outages, despite paying nearly the highest rates for electricity in the United States. Before complaining about the smoke in Baghdad rising from private generators, think back to the run on generators in California when they were contemplated as a future part of every household’s line of defense.

We’re told that Iraq’s finances are a mess. Yet until recently, so were California’s. Two years ago, Governor Schwarzenegger inherited a $38 billion annual budget shortfall. That could have made for strong morning newscast teasers: “Another $100 million borrowed today — $3 billion more in red ink to pile up by month’s end!”

So is California comparable to Iraq? Hardly. Yet it could easily be sketched by a reporter intent on doing so as a bank rupt, crime-ridden den with murderous highways, tens of thousands of inmates, with wide-open borders.

I myself recently returned home to California, without incident, from a visit to Iraq’s notorious Sunni Triangle. While I was gone, a drug-addicted criminal with a long list of convictions broke into our kitchen at 4 a.m., was surprised by my wife and daughter, and fled with our credit cards, cash, keys, and cell phones.

Sometimes I wonder who really was safer that week.

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson041206.html

[Sara]

I would like to say that the US didn't get involved in WWII in Europe until after Pearl Harbour. 

Right, and if we, or the UK, or someone else had reacted more quickly to the horrible things that were happening, we probably could have prevented a lot of WWII.  The thing is, the US is damned if we do, and damned if we don't.  Either we're butting into someone else's business, or we're a cold-hearted country who doesn't care about the suffering of others. 

[st789]

George Bush is still searching for WMD!!!

[Bill Peckham]

Really Black, that's a reasonable analysis?

People die all the time. Hey, rape happens everywhere. Really? Do you think that comparison shows Iraq is just a media distortion?

We chose to follow our current Iraq policy. Events did not compel our actions (in case you're thinking of posting VDH's similar editorial imagining WWII headlines based on his view of Iraq reporting).

We, or more accurately our founding fathers, chose our form of government. We have the society we have chosen. The citizens of California know that they make choices between living in a free society and living in a police state where with great diligence violent crime and terrorism would reach Stalinist Russia levels. I'm sure the streets of Moscow were very safe in the 1950s. The people of Iraq did not choose this American administration's policies and the continuing occupation of their country.

And remind me: How many desperate CA-refuges are being accommodated in Oregon and Nevada?

[Black]

Really Black, that's a reasonable analysis?

People die all the time. Hey, rape happens everywhere. Really? Do you think that comparison shows Iraq is just a media distortion?

We chose to follow our current Iraq policy.

We, or more accurately our founding fathers, chose our form of government. We have the society we have chosen. The citizens of California know that they make choices between living in a free society and living in a police state where with great diligence violent crime and terrorism would reach Stalinist Russia levels. I'm sure the streets of Moscow were very safe in the 1950s. The people of Iraq did not choose this American administration's policies and the continuing occupation of their country.

And remind me: How many desperate CA-refuges are being accommodated in Oregon and Nevada?

Yes, I think that is a reasonable analysis and that there is a strong liberal bias in most of the media reports on Iraq, which creates a distorted image of what it is actually happening there.  My friend's son is a Marine and I have known for many years that what he reports and what we learn from many media reports are often opposite sides of the same coin.  There is much misinformation, and outright lies accepted by too many people as truth, because of those in the mainstream media with a liberal agenda of their own.

The people of Iraq didn't choose to be occupied and they could have avoided it by removing the dictator, who thumbed his nose at the UN for 12 years and abused his own people far worse than anything that has happened since the US troops arrived.  Saddam murdered and tortured too many, probably in excess of a million people, with impunity for far too long.  He attacked our UN sanctioned flights for too long.  Since they could not remove Saddam, and the UN would not, we were left with no other acceptable choice. 

BTW, the people of Iraq are not our enemy and we are not fighting them; we are fighting the terrorists, from inside and outside of Iraq.  Since they have already attacked us so many times before, here in the US and all over the world, why would anyone believe they will not follow us here if we aren't fighting them there?

As far as CA refugees, there are many who have left So. CA because of the high crime rate and ghetto creep.  One of the families is living near me.

I've long thought that CA ought to be two states.  In fact, it might even be a good idea to give So CA back to Mexico or just annex Mexico entirely.  Yes, I'm joking, but the thought has crossed my mind.

In case you can't tell, I am an ultra-conservative, pro-choice, Republican, and often vote a straight Republican ticket.  But, I have written Lindsey Graham and told him he is too soft on illegal immigration and threatened to vote Democrat to get him out of office. 

[Bill Peckham]

So let me get this right. We're not fighting the Iraqis, we're just borrowing their country to use as a giant terrorist magnate.

Interesting therory. The intention may have been to create a magnate but I think that what has been wrought is a terrorism university. Sure everyone is hangingout on campus now but after graduation people tend to move on.

I'd think an ultra conservative would favor tried and true strategies and traditions rather than some new fangeled "Green Latern Therory of Geopolitics" http://yglesias.tpmcafe.com/blog/yglesias/2006/jul/10/the_green_lantern_theory_of_geopolitics

[George Jung]

George Bush is still searching for WMD!!!

George Bush is a Donkey's Ass!!!

   
The thing is, the US is damned if we do, and damned if we don't. Either we're butting into someone else's business, or we're a cold-hearted country who doesn't care about the suffering of others.

How very true it is that one cant make all happy all of the time but "damned if we do, and damned if we don't" is your impression which does not necessarily make it so.  There will always be many opinions about the U.S. some more popular than others.


 We need to get out of Iraq.  Saddam is gone and we are not going to end terrorism by occupying SOMEONE ELSE'S COUNTRY.  Who in the hell do we think we are?  Oh but how interesting that IRAQ doubles as a country with big time oil and we AMERICANS ARE BIB TIME CONSUMERS.  9/11 was a tragic day for all of America and the right opportunity for the Donkey in charge, to be supported by all of America to possibly do some good against the bastards that took so many innocent lives AND use the back door to influence a country with something we desire.  Remember, friends use one another and we are pushing our way into a friendship.  All for the good of man?  Give me a break with crap like that.

[Black]

So let me get this right. We're not fighting the Iraqis, we're just borrowing their country to use as a giant terrorist magnate.

Interesting theory. The intention may have been to create a magnate but I think that what has been wrought is a terrorism university. Sure everyone is hangingout on campus now but after graduation people tend to move on.

I'd think an ultra conservative would favor tried and true strategies and traditions rather than some new fangled "Green Lantern Theory of Geopolitics" http://yglesias.tpmcafe.com/blog/yglesias/2006/jul/10/the_green_lantern_theory_of_geopolitics

No, we aren't "borrowing" their country.  The terrorists are, and they were training there before we arrived.  If it has become a magnet for terrorists, then better there than here.  As far as graduation is concerned, let's hope they die first.

Don't bother giving me loony left propaganda sites.     If I want to read that kind of silly (and vicious) crap I'll check out moveon.org. 

[boxman55]

So let me get this right. We're not fighting the Iraqis, we're just borrowing their country to use as a giant terrorist magnate.

Interesting theory. The intention may have been to create a magnate but I think that what has been wrought is a terrorism university. Sure everyone is hangingout on campus now but after graduation people tend to move on.

I'd think an ultra conservative would favor tried and true strategies and traditions rather than some new fangled "Green Lantern Theory of Geopolitics" http://yglesias.tpmcafe.com/blog/yglesias/2006/jul/10/the_green_lantern_theory_of_geopolitics

No, we aren't "borrowing" their country.  The terrorists are, and they were training there before we arrived.  If it has become a magnet for terrorists, then better there than here.  As far as graduation is concerned, let's hope they die first.

Don't bother giving me loony left propaganda sites.     If I want to read that kind of silly (and vicious) crap I'll check out moveon.org. 

Amen.. we waited to long to put an end to the attacks on our country and ships and embassies and soldiers and so on.. all Clinton every did was launch expensive missiles at desolate locations. And the attacks kept coming. We took the fight to them under Bush and they have not hit us since. Better there then here. Boxman55

[Bill Peckham]

Even the President doesn't share your specious recollection of events. The White House does not pretend there were significant weapons programs in Iraq (our military's actions post invasion were not the actions of someone who thought there  were WMD lying around. What more do you need to know?), the President no longer pretends that there was a connection to 9/11. I am sympathetic that thinking there were WMD or a link to 9/11 must make this disaster easier to swallow, but in the end the reality of the situation will overwhelm all the but the 20% nub of what was once the Republican party.

In 19 months that 20% nub can go back to worrying about "Black Helicopters" and the ATF, muttering about the "media". Good riddance.

I think Matt's Green Lantern Theory is exactly right. Spot on. It is the idea if only we believed a bit more, if only we just really put our hearts into it everything would have worked just the way it was suppose to and there'd be a friendly Iraqi democracy, pro-Israel and welcoming to our perminanent military presence. If only the American public wasn't bamboozled by those terrorist sympathizers in the "media". What a bunch of hooey. The President took a huge gambol and lost. End of story.

[BigSky]

Even the President doesn't share your specious recollection of events. The White House does not pretend there were significant weapons programs in Iraq (our military's actions post invasion were not the actions of someone who thought there  were WMD lying around. What more do you need to know?), the President no longer pretends that there was a connection to 9/11. I am sympathetic that thinking there were WMD or a link to 9/11 must make this disaster easier to swallow, but in the end the reality of the situation will overwhelm all the but the 20% nub of what was once the Republican party.

The war was never about significant weapons programs.  It dealt with very specific things over 12+ years that Saddam did and refused to do to abide by the cease fire from the gulf war. 

Among them, Saddam was banned from having ANY programs, weapons or materials.  That means ZERO, ZIP, NADDA, the BIG GOOSE EGG. 

That does not mean one, or two, or some or a few or a couple.  It means NONE!

The fact is we have found WMD, materials and other associated items all which were banned proves we were right and justified in taking action holding Saddam accountable for his actions against us and the world.  Even the UN stated that Iraq had illegally moved banned materials from Iraq in the last weeks leading up to the war.

No need for Bush to pretend any link to 9/11 because he never claimed a link.  That was a complete fabrication by the left.

We went to war with Iraq because of 9/11, not because they were involved with it.  Not really a hard concept to grasp.