Gun Controll Debate

[George Jung]

Ballistic Fingerprinting 
Smart Guns 
Trigger Locks 
Backround Checks 
One Gun a Month 
Waiting Periods 
Licensing Hand Gun Owners 
Registration for Hand Guns 
Safe Storage Laws 

[jbeany]

Ballistic Fingerprinting is only a good idea in theory.  In the real world, it just won't work.  For those of you unfamiliar with the concept - the idea is to shoot each weapon as it is manufactured, then keep a computer file of the bullet's rifling for matching to a crime scene bullet, like they show on all the CSI shows.  In reality, if a criminal planned to use a weapon in crime, and didn't want the bullet traced, it is remarkably easy to alter the weapon to keep the ballistic fingerprint from matching the one on file.  Many guns can be dismantled, and the barrel exchanged or replaced so that the rifiling doesn't match.  It's also possible to simply damage the gun barrel by scratching or marring the interior surface of the barrel, which also drastically changes the rifling.  Doing so will, of course, alter the accuracy of the weapon, but we are talking about someone planning to use the gun to commit a murder, not win a target tourney.

[Rerun]

Definitely a 3 day waiting period.  Then a gun safety class.  Also, if they have anything on their record then no gun.

[BigSky]

Ballistic Fingerprinting 
Smart Guns 
Trigger Locks 
Backround Checks 
One Gun a Month 
Waiting Periods 
Licensing Hand Gun Owners 
Registration for Hand Guns 
Safe Storage Laws 

LOL   How little you know about firearms george.

If anything you have demonstrated why people like YOU should not own them.

 

[Joe Paul]

Bad thing about guns are illegal guns, the ones that are considered "throw aways". All the gun laws in the world wont prevent someone hell bent on getting a gun that wants one for any reason, rather cheap too.

[George Jung]

Seatbelts don't save everyones life but they do save some.

BigSky, I guess most of Americans don't know much about guns either then, because most of them would agree with some of those ideas.  I am glad you find it funny because that just confirms my thoughts about you.

[del]

I agree with Joe Paul that all the gun restrictions and rules you can think of won't stop a killer if he really wants to do it. They will find a way to get some weapon - steal it or whatever. I think though that there has to be some type of control. You should not be able to just go to a store and buy a gun. You should have to apply ,do a course on how to use it, safety and also show that ou are a responsible person. Guns are just an object without the ammo so that has to be controlled as well.  I use a gun and own one but it would never be used for anything illegal by me. 

[Falkenbach]

Safe storage laws, whilst not a bad idea per se, are probably still pretty ineffective. Statistically, as we are all aware, most people are killed by someone they know. The storage is not going to prevent a gun being used in a domestic situation because the gun owner knows where it is and has easy access to it!

I'm afraid, much to the disgust of many a US resident, I am a supporter of gun control laws. I don't see the need for things like autos and semi autos in the hands of civilians at all! And anything else should be licensed.

I don't believe there is any denying the link between the high rate of gun crime in America and the easy accessibility of guns there. I would never insult your constitution, I realise and respect the importance of the document, but I would argue that that the "rigth to bear arms" section is outdated.

*runs for cover*

[glitter]

Gun control" laws prevent crime.

So overwhelming is the evidence against this myth that it borders on the absurd for anti-gun groups to try to perpetuate it.

There are thousands of federal, state and local gun laws. The Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44) alone prohibits persons convicted of, or under indictment for, crimes punishable by more than a year in prison, fugitives, illegal drug users, illegal aliens, mental incompetents and certain other classes of people from purchasing or possessing firearms. It prohibits mail order sales of firearms, prohibits sales of firearms between non-dealer residents of other states, prohibits retail sales of handguns to persons under age 21 and rifles and shotguns to persons under age 18 and prohibits the importation of firearms "not generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." It also established the current firearms dealer licensing system. Consider the following gun control failures.

(Unless otherwise noted, crime data are from the FBI, Uniform Crime Reports.)

Washington, D.C.'s ban on handgun sales took effect in 1977 and by the 1990s the city's murder rate had tripled. During the years following the ban, most murders--and all firearm murders--in the city were committed with handguns.1

Chicago imposed handgun registration in 1968, and murders with handguns continued to rise. Its registration system in place, Chicago imposed a D.C.-style handgun ban in 1982, and over the next decade the annual number of handgun-related murders doubled.2

California increased its waiting period on retail and private sales of handguns from five to 15 days in 1975 (reduced to 10 days in 1996), outlawed "assault weapons" in 1989 and subjected rifles and shotguns to the waiting period in 1990. Yet since 1975, the state's annual murder rate has averaged 32% higher than the rate for the rest of the country.

Maryland has imposed a waiting period and a gun purchase limit, banned several small handguns, restricted "assault weapons," and regulated private transfers of firearms even between family members and friends, yet for the last decade its murder rate has averaged 44% higher than the rate for the rest of the country, and its robbery rate has averaged highest among the states.

The overall murder rate in the jurisdictions that have the most severe restrictions on firearms purchase and ownership--California, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York and Washington, D.C.--is 8% higher than the rate for the rest of the country.

New York has had a handgun licensing law since 1911, yet until the New York City Police Department began a massive crackdown on crime in the mid-1990s, New York City's violent crime rate was among the highest of U.S. cities.

The federal Gun Control Act of 1968 imposed unprecedented restrictions relating to firearms nationwide. Yet, compared to the five years before the law, the national murder rate averaged 50% higher during the five years after the law, 75% higher during the next five years, and 81% higher during the five years after that.

States where the Brady Act's waiting period was imposed had worse violent crime trends than other states. Other failures of the federal waiting period law are noted in the discussion of Fable V.

The record is clear: Gun control primarily impacts upon upstanding citizens, not criminals. Crime is reduced by holding criminals accountable for their actions.

Increasing incarceration rates -- Between 1980-1994, the 10 states with the greatest increases in prison population experienced an average decrease of 13% in violent crime, while the 10 states with the smallest increases in prison population experienced an average 55% increase in violent crime.3

Put violent criminals behind bars and keep them there -- In 1991, 162,000 criminals placed on probation instead of being imprisoned committed 44,000 violent crimes during their probation. In 1991, criminals released on parole committed 46,000 violent crimes while under supervision in the community for an average of 13 months.4 Nineteen percent of persons involved in the felonious killings of law enforcement officers during the last decade were on probation or parole at the time of the officers' killings.5

Enforce the law against criminals with guns -- The success of Richmond, Virginia's Project Exile, strongly supported by NRA, has grabbed the attention of the Administration, Members of Congress, big city mayors and criminologists. Project Exile is a federal, state and local effort led by the U.S. Attorney's Office in Richmond that sentences felons convicted of illegally possessing guns to a minimum of five years in prison. Following the implementation of Project Exile, the city's firearm murder rate was cut by nearly 40%.6 Recognizing the program's success, Congress in 1998 approved $2.3 million to implement Project Exile in Philadelphia, Pa., and Camden County, N.J. In 2002, the Bush Department of Justice took the Project Exile concept nationwide, targeting violent felons with guns under Project Safe Neighborhoods.

[glitter]

 
 The Miami Herald, Miami, FL, 09/21/06 
  State: fl 
  American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2006 
  Just four months after burglars stole jewelry worth thousands of dollars from a Florida townhouse, four suspects attempted another heist. This time, however, the homeowners' 26-year-old son was sleeping inside. According to police, Richard McKinley heard someone entering the home, grabbed a handgun and went to investigate. He confronted four burglars, and pointed his gun at them while demanding their hasty departure. Instead, they began struggling with McKinley and he opened fire. One intruder died instantly. The others fled. "[McKinley] took it upon himself to defend himself, and I'd do the same thing he did," said a neighbor. 

 
 Sun-Sentinel, Fort Lauderdale, FL, 05/30/06 
  State: fl 
  American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2006 
  High school freshman Javaris Granger woke to the sound of his mother's frantic screams and ran to her aid, finding a man slamming a bicycle against the front window in an attempt to break in. Granger yelled at the man to leave while his mother called his father on the phone. She handed him the phone and his father told him to get the guns they used for target shooting and said, "Do what you have to do." When the intruder kicked in the door, Granger fired five shots, and the man fled. A suspect was later apprehended by police and taken to the hospital with two gunshot wounds. His extensive arrest record included a charge of attacking a police officer the day before he allegedly broke into Granger's home. "My husband tried to get everyone to learn the safety of a gun," said Granger's mother. "It paid off." 

 
 Pensacola News Journal, Pensacola, FL, 03/06/06 
  State: fl 
  American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2006 
  When Edward Lucas, Sr., checked to see why the neighbor's German shepherd was barking in the early morning hours, he found a man trying to break through his door. "I yelled, 'Get out of my house!' but he kept coming," Lucas said. "I was scared to death." The 63-year-old then grabbed a .22-cal. rifle and yelled for his girlfriend to jump out the window and call the police at a neighbor's house. According to police, when the intruder crashed through the door, Lucas shot at him at least four times. The assailant, who had 14 criminal convictions including seven felonies, died on the scene. 

 
 Florida Today, Melbourne, FL, 02/22/06 
  State: fl 
  American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2006 
  Police were still investigating an odd string of events that ended with a home invasion. Witnesses said the intruder approached at least four homes, banging on and breaking windows and jumping over chain-link fences before breaking through Pete Frinks' front door. "It's scary that he would do this in broad daylight, knowing people are in the house," said a neighbor. Police say the man approached Frinks, who later described the intruder as acting "aggressively" and "irrationally." In fear of his life, Frinks grabbed a handgun and shot his assailant in the chest, killing him. 

 
 The St. Augustine Record, St. Augustine, FL, 11/05/05 
  State: fl 
  American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2006 
  Police say three men broke into a couple's residence with baseball bats and a gun in search of prescription drugs, but all they left with was a lesson from an armed citizen. Two of the men allegedly ordered the couple and their visiting family members to the floor while a third suspect stole the medications. Meanwhile, a family member in another room heard the commotion and armed himself with a firearm. He entered the room and fired several shots at the intruder who was holding the victim's relatives at gunpoint, hitting him once in the torso. Two men fled in a car and were apprehended by police. The wounded man was found collapsed in the street. The trio faces charges of home invasion, robbery and kidnapping. "They were very threatening to the family," said St. Johns County Sheriff David Shoar. "[The man who was shot] had the gun to the wife's head." 

 
 The News-Press, Fort Myers, FL, 06/07/05 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2005 
  The two masked men who burst into a North Fort Myers, Fla., pharmacy demanding drugs didn't notice the pharmacy technician, who was a concealed-weapons permit holder, crouched in the back. When one robber leapt onto the countertop and waved a pistol at the clerk, the technician took action, opening fire with a .45-cal. pistol and hitting the armed man in the stomach. Both suspects fled the scene. Police believed the wounded man was a career criminal with 14 felony convictions since 1990 who was released from prison in January. "I knew for sure this guy was going to kill me," the technician said. "I was so afraid. I knew if I died, [the clerk] was going to die." 

 
 Florida Today, Melbourne, FL, 06/19/05 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2005 
  Christine Peacock was pulling through a fast-food drive-through when a man ordered her to stop and hand over her belongings. Because she was in her boyfriend's car, the normally unarmed Peacock had a gun handy. When she drew it, the mere sight of the firearm caused the would-be robber to flee the scene. It was a scary incident that completely changed Peacock's opinion of concealed carry. "I didn't believe that everybody should carry a gun at all times; I thought it was too overprotective," she said. "[Now] I plan on enrolling in a concealed weapons permit class, and purchasing my own gun [to have] with me at all times." 

 
 The Tampa Tribune, Tampa, FL, 04/16/05 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2005 
  The hooded armed robber likely thought the older, female clerk would be an easy mark as he entered a Tampa convenience store, brandishing his gun and demanding money. He wasn't counting on confronting someone like Janet Grammer. The 64-year-old mother of 10, a former security guard, pulled her own gun from under the cash register and fired, hitting the criminal in the chest. "I think he thought I was an old woman and would just give him the money," Grammer said after the incident. "I think I scared the hell out of him. I thought he was getting ready to shoot me in the head. My life was at stake." Grammer, who also has 32 grandchildren, three great-grandchildren and three great-great-grandchildren, later said she worried that she had killed the hospitalized assailant. "It was very upsetting. The good Lord had to be with me," she said. 

 
 Florida Today, Jacksonville, FL, 03/20/2005 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2005 
  A Jacksonville, Fla., cabbie was dropping off two passengers when a robber with a gun burst onto the scene. The cab driver halted the attack by shooting the culprit in the chest. Police said the criminal, who died at the scene, had been hiding in the bushes and made his move as the passengers were exiting the car. 

 
 The Times-Union Sampler, Jacksonville, FL, 10/14/04 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2005 
  A Jacksonville, Fla., man got the surprise of his life after he came home to find a knife-wielding teenage girl inside demanding his car keys. When the girl headed to another room to retrieve the keys, the homeowner, Richard Clark, ran to retrieve his gun. Moments later the two faced off in the house, and the teen charged at Clark with the knife. Clark shot once, hitting the teen in the face. She was charged with aggravated battery and armed burglary. 

 

[glitter]

 
 Orlando Sentinel, Orlando, FL, 08/11/04 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2004 
  "I feel like I protected my own life," said Judy Foster regarding an attempted robbery she stopped at the Haines City, Florida, Mister Money USA store. Foster, the proprietor, had been through a robbery before, so when two men came into the store carrying guns, she did not hesitate to pull out her pistol and fire. One man fell to the ground, but managed to get up, and then the two robbers fled the store. Thomas Wiley, who was fatally wounded by Foster's bullet, was later found dead in a stolen car. Bernard Geddis, the driver in the incident, was arrested on charges of second-degree murder and attempted armed robbery. At press time, Taurean Brown was being sought as the suspected second gunman. 

 
 Tallahassee Democrat, Tallahassee, Fla., 11/5/04 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2004 
  Seeing a stranger enter the yard of his hurricane-damaged Pensacola, Fla., home, 77-year-old James Workman left the trailer he and his wife were living in to confront him. The man, however, managed to force his way into the trailer, where Workman grabbed him and a struggle ensued. Workman was able to reach a gun, fire and fatally shot the intruder. 

 
 Jacksonville Times-Union, Jacksonville, Fla., 10/6/04 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2004 
  When his Jacksonville, Fla., home was broken into by a butcher knife-wielding intruder who demanded the keys to his car, Richard Clark said the keys were in another room. When the invader began a search for the keys, Clark was able to retrieve his .38-cal. revolver, fire, and wounded the crook. Police soon arrested the intruder, saying the suspect was linked to three prior burglaries. 

 
 Miami Herald, Miami, Fla., October 19, 2004 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2004 
  Felicia Moss was getting out of her Lexus at her Pembroke Pines, Fla., apartment complex, when a man walked up to her and demanded money. Moss stalled by getting her wallet, and at the same time reached for the 9 mm handgun she has a permit to carry. After a brief struggle, Moss fired, and the would-be robber fled. She then disabled his car with a final round. 

 
 Florida Times-Union, Jacksonville, Fla., 7/22/04 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2004 
  After closing the Waycross, Ga., liquor store where he worked, Roy Rhodes was returning home when two robbers attacked him from behind, one shooting him in the leg. Rhodes returned fire with a pistol he was carrying, mortally wounding one of the men. The other would-be thief fled and was later apprehended by police. 

 
 The Daily Commercial, Leesburg, Fla., 9/23/04 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2004 
  When his mother's ex-boyfriend rammed a pickup truck into her Croom-a-Coochie, Fla., home after making a number of threatening phone calls, 20-year-old Donald Carr grabbed his .22-caliber rifle. Then, when the man grabbed a hammer and threatened his mother, Carr fired, wounding the intruder, who soon was arrested by police. 

 
 Polk County News-Chief, Polk County, Fla., 8/11/04 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2004 
  Two armed robbers thought that because a woman was behind the counter of a Lake Alfred, Fla., store, it would be an easy heist. Instead, Judy Foster reacted to their demand of money from a clerk by retrieving her gun and firing three shots, fatally wounding one of the suspects. The other suspect was later arrested and charged with attempted robbery and second-degree murder. 

 
 Tampa Tribune, Tampa, FL, 01/10/04 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 5/1/2004 
  A liquor store clerk thwarted a robbery attempt at Latam Wines & Liquor in Tampa, Fla., when he grabbed a gun kept under the counter and aimed it at the crook. The robbery attempt occurred at 8:30 p.m. when a man wearing a bandanna over his face entered the liquor store. The masked man approached the counter and pointed a gun at the clerk who, in turn, pulled out a gun and aimed it at the would-be robber. The masked man fled the store without shots being fired and took off in a late model Camaro or Trans Am. Three other men were in the vehicle when it sped off, according to police. 

 
 St. Petersburg Times, St. Petersburg, FL, 01/22/04 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2004 
  Baltimore Ravens cornerback Corey Fuller was confronted at his Tallahassee, Fla., home by an armed man at 2:30 a.m. when he and a houseguest went outside to retrieve something from his car. The gunman chased after Fuller who ran back into his home to get his revolver. After an exchange of gunfire the assailant fled and no one was injured. Fuller is offering a $10,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of his assailant. 

 
 The News, Stuart, Florida, 11/27/03 
  State: FL 
  American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2004 
  Jeff Pantzer of Stuart, Florida, was awakened in the night by the sound of blinds rattling. Someone had broken in just five months previously, and Pantzer now kept a shotgun just in case. He took up his gun and fired as he saw a man's legs enter his window, scaring the would-be burglar right out of his shoes. "My safety was my first consideration," Pantzer said. "It was real quick, he was halfway in the window ... I fired, and he exited the window at the same time ..." The suspect was not apprehended, but police say he may be linked to four similar burglaries in the area. 
 

[glitter]

 "Since firearm accidents are a large and growing problem, we need laws mandating how people store their firearms." NOT TRUE

To the contrary, fatal firearm accidents in the United States have been decreasing dramatically from year to year, decade to decade.1 Today they're at an all-time low among the entire population and among children in particular, and account for only 1% of fatal accidents. More common are fatal accidents involving, or due to, motor vehicles, falls, fires, poisoning, drowning, choking on ingested objects and mistakes during medical care.2 Since 1930, the U.S. population has more than doubled, the number of privately owned firearms has quintupled, and the annual number of fatal firearm accidents has declined by 74%.3 Among children, fatal firearm accidents have declined 84% since 1975.4

Anti-gun activists exaggerate the number of firearm-related deaths among children more than 500%, by counting deaths among persons under the age of 20 as deaths of "children."5 To these activists a 19-year-old gangster who is shot by police during a convenience store robbery is a "child." In some instances, they even have pretended that persons under the age of 25 were "children," and Handgun Control, Inc., on at least one occasion, pretended that anyone under the age of 35 was a "child."6

Along with misrepresenting accident and other statistics in an effort to frighten people into not keeping guns in their homes, anti-gun activists also advocate "mandatory storage" laws (to require all gun owners to store their firearms unloaded and locked away) and "triggerlock" laws (to require some sort of locking device to be provided with every gun sold.) Both concepts are intended to prohibit or, at least, discourage people from keeping their firearms ready for protection against criminals--the most common reason many people buy firearms today.

NRA opposes such laws because it would be unreasonable and potentially dangerous to impose one storage requirement upon all gun owners. Individual gun owners have different factors to consider when determining how best to store their guns. They alone are capable of making the decision that is best for themselves. Gun safes and trigger locking devices have been on the market for years, of course, and remain available to anyone who decides that those products fit their individual needs.

Storage and triggerlock laws could also give people the false impression that it is safe to rely upon mechanical devices, rather than upon proper firearm handling procedures. Mechanical devices can fail and many trigger locking devices pose a danger when installed on loaded firearms.

Mandatory storage laws also would be virtually impossible to enforce without violating the Fourth Amendment's protection against unreasonable searches. American gun owners and civil libertarians are keenly aware that in Great Britain, a mandatory storage law was a precursor to that country's prohibition on handgun ownership.

Most states provide penalties for reckless endangerment, under which an adult found grossly negligent in the storage of a firearm can be prosecuted for a criminal offense. Responsible gun owners already store their firearms safely, in accordance with their personal needs. Irresponsible persons are not likely to undergo a character change because of a law that restates their inherent responsibilities.

NRA recognizes that education has been the key to the decline in firearm accidents. NRA's network of 39,000 Certified Instructors and Coaches nationwide trains hundreds of thousands of gun owners each year. Separately, NRA's award-winning Eddie Eagle® Gun Safety Education program for children pre-K through 6th grade has reached more than 15 million youngsters nationwide. NRA's Home Firearm Safety Manual advises: "The proper storage of firearms is the responsibility of all gun owners," and that gun owners should "store guns so they are not accessible to untrained or unauthorized persons."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[George Jung]

Gun controll can minimize, or at the very least, decrease criminal opportunity.  Gun controll laws can reduce the accidental tragedies and mishaps.  To think that anything can prevent crime is idiotic.  Why would you want to make it so easy, or rather, why would you not want to make it as difficult as possible for criminals, or those who should not have possession of a weapon, to get their hands on one.  These stories of defense are somewhat interesting to read but remember that there are also many stories of the opposite nature, where a child has been involved or a stolen gun was involved in a crime or someone like Seung-Hui Cho can just walk into a store and purchase his tool.  Had Cho been force to purchase illegally there would have another opportunity for him to be caught before he was enabled.  Nothing is going to work 100%, 100% of the time regardless of what we are talking about, the point is to make something work the best we possibly can and we are not doing that with gun controll.  Bottom line.

[George Jung]

NRA opposes such laws because it would be unreasonable and potentially dangerous to impose one storage requirement upon all gun owners. Individual gun owners have different factors to consider when determining how best to store their guns. They alone are capable of making the decision that is best for themselves. Gun safes and trigger locking devices have been on the market for years, of course, and remain available to anyone who decides that those products fit their individual needs.

Not all of them. 

Storage and triggerlock laws could also give people the false impression that it is safe to rely upon mechanical devices, rather than upon proper firearm handling procedures.

So they have enough sense to know what type of storage they need but their not smart enough to know not to rely on a safety?  This is one (no offense to you personaly) dumb ass statement.

Most states provide penalties for reckless endangerment, under which an adult found grossly negligent in the storage of a firearm can be prosecuted for a criminal offense. Responsible gun owners already store their firearms safely, in accordance with their personal needs. Irresponsible persons are not likely to undergo a character change because of a law that restates their inherent responsibilities.

Very weak defense here.  Most states?  How harsh is that criminal offense treated?  It needs to be all states and a serious penalty.  It is not always a matter or responsible or not.  If a law is harsh enough people will pay attention.

To say this won't work (help) is wrong I think.  Is it that much for the possibility of saving life?

[Falkenbach]

Statistics can be useful, but are not a stand-alone argument. There are many factors to be considered - are the statistics per capita? What are the other factors contributing to the statistics etc.

The statistic that is most important, imo, is that murder rate in the US (per head of population) - while I don't have the exact numbers off the top of my head - is absurdly higher than the majority of other countries.

[BigSky]

  Had Cho been force to purchase illegally there would have another opportunity for him to be caught before he was enabled.

Actually that is...... how do you put it?  "This is one (no offense to you personally) dumb ass statement."

He purchased the gun ILLEGALLY in the first place.

[George Jung]

He purchased the gun ILLEGALLY in the first place.

No he didn't.  There are loopholes in a system you (BigSky) and a few other Americans think is a system that is sufficient or more than sufficient regarding gun control. 

How would you suggest to handle gun control being that you say I don't know anything about guns and you are an expert, BigSky?

[BigSky]

No he didn't.  There are loopholes in a system you (BigSky) and a few other Americans think is a system that is sufficient or more than sufficient regarding gun control. 

How would you suggest to handle gun control being that you say I don't know anything about guns and you are an expert, BigSky?

Actually george yes he did purchase it illegally.

The place that sold it did it legally, however Cho purchased it illegally.  He lied on the application form therefore making the purchase illegal.  As to loophole there was no loophole.  Loophole lets one evade something within confines of the law, this didnt happen.


The Constitution is very clear on this george,  "shall not infringe".

That means you do not get to INFRINGE on the Constitution's Second through law.  Plain and simple.

The founders were very clear on this matter.  They knew there would come a time when government would try to steal this right and therefore protected it.

The vast majority of guns laws are unconstitutional.    The only way to change it is to change the Constitution.  In this day and age that isnt going to happen.  Not only will they fail to get the votes to change it but many states have this right in their own State Constitutions and NO law can circumvent that.

You might take note george that the Constitution SPECIFICALLY mentions that the PEOPLE have the right to keep and bear arms.

No where in the First does it SPECIFICALLY give the PEOPLE the right to free speech.

You give up your right to free speech first, then I might give up my right as outlined in the Second.

[George Jung]

The loophole is in the backround check.  Because Cho was treated as an outpatient as well as not requiring all states to report to a centralized data base, his "condition" went undetected.  Call it whatever you like but the system failed unnecessarily.  Also if you were to implement some of the other measure I mentioned it would be more difficult for some would be criminals to have the means for purchase.  Lying on your application should be detectable, if it's not, what is the point in filling out an application in the first place?

Why would anyone not want to do everything possible to prevent guns from ending up in the wrong hands?  The "It's my right" attitude is not for America TODAY.  You can have the right to own a gun and help to protect the innocent at the same time, for most of the law abiding citizens of the U.S. this is not a problem.  It is hard headed extremest like you BigSky that are hell bent on not doing anything about the problems that the current laws are faced with.

[nextnoel]

Just a thought:  if Cho had been unable to get a gun (oh, say, by strict laws being enforced strictly, or some such ridiculous impossibility), he would have had to use a knife - and do you think he would have had as high a number of victims?  I hate guns.  I hate lunacy.  I hate lunatics who have guns.  Altogether, now, folks, stomp on me (at least you can't shoot me over the 'net).

[George Jung]

I doubt Cho would have had the resources to purchase a gun off the streets.  There are many guns available in the black market, many of which have been stolen or bought legally (sometimes in quantity) by a legitimate source and then resold to to persons who deal in the black market.  If we have a one gun a month rule we would not enable these type of occurrences so easily.  I can appreciate the right to bear arms and to protect one's possessions but that doesn't mean requiring registration and other measures infringes on that right.  If someone is legal they should not be bothered by a process.  BigSky keeps comparing this issue to the first amendment, in my opinion that is absurd.  A gun is a object that has the ability to take life, in my opinion that kinda stands alone.  I truly believe that our founding fathers would not allow this to be taking place today.  If we are going to protect the right we need to make the laws with the many in mind rather than the few.  The majority of Americans would agree with taking precautions.  At the very minimum there are manufacturer laws that have been proposed to aid in the cause.

[BigSky]

The loophole is in the backround check.  Because Cho was treated as an outpatient as well as not requiring all states to report to a centralized data base, his "condition" went undetected.  Call it whatever you like but the system failed unnecessarily.  Also if you were to implement some of the other measure I mentioned it would be more difficult for some would be criminals to have the means for purchase.  Lying on your application should be detectable, if it's not, what is the point in filling out an application in the first place?

Why would anyone not want to do everything possible to prevent guns from ending up in the wrong hands?  The "It's my right" attitude is not for America TODAY.  You can have the right to own a gun and help to protect the innocent at the same time, for most of the law abiding citizens of the U.S. this is not a problem.  It is hard headed extremest like you BigSky that are hell bent on not doing anything about the problems that the current laws are faced with.

BS there was no loophole.  Again how little you know about firearms and the laws surrounding them.

He was adjudicated by a court to be mentally ill.  As such it was up to the court to comply with law.  It had nothing to do with him being a patient even if he was one.

Extremest?   Hardly,  I am not the one who is trying to circumvent the Constitution with asinine laws.  The concept of the Constitution is not hard to grasp.  It is the SUPREME DOCUMENT OF THE LAND!!  No law gets to circumvent it.  The founders were VERY clear on this and thus left a way for the Constitution to be changed.

I doubt Cho would have had the resources to purchase a gun off the streets.  There are many guns available in the black market, many of which have been stolen or bought legally (sometimes in quantity) by a legitimate source and then resold to to persons who deal in the black market.

Prove it.  Names, places, dates, number of guns purchased at one time.

If we have a one gun a month rule we would not enable these type of occurrences so easily.  I can appreciate the right to bear arms and to protect one's possessions but that doesn't mean requiring registration and other measures infringes on that right.  If someone is legal they should not be bothered by a process.

It does infringe.  What you are saying is that if one does not jump through these illegal unconstitutional hoops then they do not get a gun.  That is called infringement and VIOLATES the Constitution!

BigSky keeps comparing this issue to the first amendment, in my opinion that is absurd.  A gun is a object that has the ability to take life, in my opinion that kinda stands alone.  I truly believe that our founding fathers would not allow this to be taking place today.  If we are going to protect the right we need to make the laws with the many in mind rather than the few.  The majority of Americans would agree with taking precautions.  At the very minimum there are manufacturer laws that have been proposed to aid in the cause.

A firearm has NEVER taken a life.  It is the person behind the firearm who has taken a life. 

Many things can be used to take life.  Knives, bats, cars, etc. etc.  None of which are a Constitutional Right to have.

Jefferson made it quite clear about firearms.

This asinine thing where you think law gets to circumvent the US Constitution is beyond me and would have the founders spinning in their graves.

[George Jung]

BigSky, you are a riot! lmao

I post articles and you criticize me for doing so....now you want me to "prove it."

whatever...

[BigSky]

BigSky, you are a riot! lmao

I post articles and you criticize me for doing so....now you want me to "prove it."

whatever...

You never posted any such article that gave that information.

Now, names, dates, firearms and numbers of them.  Show us this term "many".

The BATF would like to know this also I bet, not to mention the FBI.

[waitlisted]

April 18, 2007
Section: National News
Edition: Newsweek Web Exclusive

'Easy Guns'
Va. Shootings: What the World is Saying
Newsweek

The Virginia Tech shootings have not just resonated inside the United States. Around the world, politicians and analysts have watched the headlines with interest, filtering their commentary through their own national prisms. Many non-Americans remain bewildered by the nation's gun laws; others found themselves surprised by the diversity of students and professors at a college in a town few could have found on a map. Some of the international reaction:

Australia

"Eleven years ago we took action to limit the availability of guns, and we showed a national resolve that the gun culture that is such a negative in the United States would never become a negative in our country."
—Australian Prime Minister John Howard, expressing sympathy for the victims' families and referring to the 1996 shooting spree by a man with a semi-automatic rifle who killed 35 people in Port Arthur, on the island of Tasmania. Australia banned most types of semi-automatic weapons after the incident.

Asia

"We cannot but worry that [Cho's] shocking atrocity would implant a dark image [of] Koreans in to the brains of Americans and world citizens."
—Editorial in Manhwa Ilbo, Seoul, South Korea

"Why can people bring guns to campus? How is it possible that so many innocent people could be killed? How could it happen?"
Sugiyarti, an Indonesian woman who learned late Tuesday that her 34-year-old stepson, Partahi Lumbantoruan, was among those killed. The family had sold property and a car to finance his civil engineering studies.

"It's not a question of an Indian professor getting killed in the firing. This is related to the American gun laws. We can't do anything about it. It is something which has happened in the United States. They have got to change the law."   
— K. Subrahmanyam, a former member of India's National Security Council. India has some 80,000 students in the U.S. One of the Virginia Tech victims was G.V. Loganathan, a 51-year-old lecturer at the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, who came from Chennia, India.

"[The shootings] underscore that fact that in the U.S., a tragedy caused by guns can happen anywhere.... We hope that this will not trigger race-related problems for Asians.... We like to see the U.S. government, Congress and the people strengthen gun-control laws."
—An editorial in the Japanese paper Asahi Shimbun calling for tougher gun controls in the United States

Europe

"Why, we ask, do Americans continue to tolerate gun laws and a culture that seems to condemn thousands of innocents to death every year, when presumably, tougher restrictions, such as those in force in European countries, could at least reduce the number?"
— The Times of London, in an editorial delving into the American psyche and the gun laws across the nation

"It is a delusion … to imagine that controls on their own will stop the rise of gun crime, and the killing that results … what is needed is a wholesale shift in the national culture—and that will take rather longer than an arms ban."
— Mangus Linklater, The Times of London columnist

"There's only one real ‘freedom' in America—the freedom to kill one anotherr… if guns weren't so readily available in the ‘land of the free,' this tragedy might never have happened."
— London's Daily Mail columnist Russell Miller

" There is such a high murder rate in the United States that even if you excluded the deaths caused there by the use of guns, their homicide rate would still be higher than ours.  In other words, even if there were not a single gun in America, there would still be more murders and manslaughters than in Britain.  Bringing gun control to America would not stop it being a country where a lot of people get killed."
— James Bartholomew, political commentator at the Daily Express in London

"[T]he response of many who wish America ill will have been gratuitous schadenfreude. They see a people who live by the gun also dying by it, be they Marines in Anbar province or students in Virginia…. How can American soldiers disarm Iraqi families of their weapons in Baghdad yet claim the right to arm themselves to the teeth back home?"
— The Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins

"In a country where ‘the right to bear arms' is written into the Constitution and where there are an estimated 192 million firearms, the problem isn't simply one of a particular interest group. After the tragedy, voices rose up to deplore the fact that professors and students are not authorized to arm themselves, since one of them could have neutralized the killer. With that kind of reasoning, America is not close to overcoming its violence."
— Excerpts from an editorial headlined "Tragédie Américaine," in France's Le Monde newspaper

"What is, for us, an archaism remains, for many Americans, a fundamental right, a right to remain armed, which is becoming more and more costly. That is the difference between us and them"
— Pierre Rousselin, from Paris's Le Figaro

"In France, we say everything ends in song. In the land of John Wayne, Charlton Heston and George Bush, a great partisan of the NRA, everything, individual anger, heartbreak, neighborhood disputes, quarrels between dealers or depression, ends in shootouts. That is why students die on campuses, without anyone, starting with Hillary Clinton, thinking to do anything much about it."
— Laurent Joffrin, writing in the French newspaper Libération

"In Virginia at the age of 13, you can buy a revolver at a supermarket."
— From the Italian newspaper il Messaggero, in an article headlined Pistole Facili (Easy Guns). Italian newspapers carried extensive comments from Marina Cogo and Giancarlo Bordonaro, two 23-year-old Virginia Tech students from Milan. Cogo is returning home, vowing not to return.

Africa

"This is a shocking event that highlights serious malfunction in many societies. We hope the necessary lessons will be learned in such tragedies that are now becoming a common occurrence in the western world."
— South Africa's deputy minister of foreign affairs, Aziz Pahad

"[The shootings are a] shocking reminder of the violence that lies so relatively close to the surface of not only American society, but also that of our own.... The Virginia Tech atrocity cannot be seen in isolation. Like in this country, shootings at schools, colleges and workplaces take place in the United States with appalling regularity. So routine have they become that, again like in this country, it is only the multiple shootings that attract headlines."
— Editorial from South Africa's Daily News newspaper

Israel

"[This] frays U.S. nerves at a time when violence has become an unwelcome guest in more and more American homes."
— From Israel's Jerusalem Post

Iraq

"It is a big loss for the American people and I think that this is a message from Allah to them to stop and think of what is happening in Iraq. Thousands of Iraqis lost their sons or fathers and all of this was because of the so-called American democracy being exported to Third World countries."
— Haifa Salim, a 34-year-old Baghdad housewife

"I feel sorry that there are innocent civilians getting killed for no reason. We in Iraq have tasted this curse and we know how difficult it is to lose a loved one. [But] at other times, especially when I'm emotional, I think, 'Let the American people get a taste of what they brought us, death and tragedies and blood everywhere.'
— Khalid Mohammed, a 33-year-old civil engineer in Baghdad


Copyright (c) 2007, Newsweek