G.O.P. to Americans With Health Problems: Drop Dead

[PrimeTimer]

I am always reading about how the homeless do not want to stay in shelters because of bed bugs, lice, disease, theft, etc.. I can't imagine what a facility would be like filled with adults, children and babies all together. I imagine they are separated for the same reasons why they don't send children, spouses and partners to jail when someone is arrested. But if they did, I couldn't imagine what the conditions would be like other than very noisy, dirty and dangerous -for all. Jails are already like that.


self-edited to add: Read some of the latest articles in the Seattle Times about their huge homeless encampment dubbed "The Jungle". Filth, chaos and violence. And those are some of the people who say they don't want to go to a shelter because of filth, chaos and violence. Go figure.

[Michael Murphy]

Just saw on the news Trump storm troopers are putting 1200 children in a tent city in 105 degree heat. What’s next gas chambers.

[PrimeTimer]

Just saw on the news Trump storm troopers are putting 1200 children in a tent city in 105 degree heat. What’s next gas chambers.

The tents are equipped with air conditioners, bathrooms and medical facilities. They are the same ones used for hurricane victims in Florida and much like the ones are men and women in the military have to use. And be careful about gas chambers. Some are friends of Holocaust survivors and may be offended by those kind of remarks.

[MooseMom]

How do we know if these tents are equipped with ac, etc?  No one is allowed into the area to see for themselves.  It's all so clandestine, so secretive, so shrouded in mystery.  Why not let the world's journalists into these places to show us?

And if these tents DO have all of these facilities, what these tent-kids don't have is their parents.  The tents are not the issue; the separation of children and parents are the issue.

I am certain that anyone who would be offended by the use of remarks about "gas chambers" would be equally offended by the scale of kidnapping that is taking place.

[PrimeTimer]

How do we know if these tents are equipped with ac, etc?  No one is allowed into the area to see for themselves.  It's all so clandestine, so secretive, so shrouded in mystery.  Why not let the world's journalists into these places to show us?

And if these tents DO have all of these facilities, what these tent-kids don't have is their parents.  The tents are not the issue; the separation of children and parents are the issue.

I am certain that anyone who would be offended by the use of remarks about "gas chambers" would be equally offended by the scale of kidnapping that is taking place.

You can read about it on the El Paso Times and also see photos. Our military lives and works in tents similar to these, even performing surgery. They're called mobile hospitals. And our soldiers have to wear heavy uniforms. Some of them live in tents everyday in high heat for several months at a time. Some fly helicopters that are not air conditioned. In some parts of the world the weather can be pretty brutal. As for kidnapping, I suppose that's the tale a parent might tell their children after breaking the law and being placed into formal  custody of law enforcement. I don't think they repeat that tale too often to a judge tho.

[MooseMom]

OK, so you're saying that if it is good enough for our military, then it is good enough for children who have been kidnapped.  OK.  Of course, part of the problem is that we don't know where a lot of these kids actually are.  If feels a bit Boko Haram-y.  "Where are the girls?"

Parents ARE telling their tales to judges.  http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/391138-federal-judge-refuses-to-dismiss-aclu-lawsuit-against-trump-over  There is a reason that so many governors have either refused to send their national guard troops to the border or have recalled them.  Most of us realize that this is a humanitarian/moral issue more than a legal issue.  Bad laws are no excuse for kidnapping kids in the name of "border control".  We can't keep hiding behind "But they're breaking the LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[MooseMom]

But back on topic, where is the wonderful, affordable health care for all Americans that Trump promised us?

[PrimeTimer]

I think when the State Exchanges that were set up for Obamacare went broke people found themselves without insurance. And even tho it was required, I don't think a lot of young people signed up for Obamacare. That didn't help. That just should not of happened. I mean, it wasn't suppose to but it did. Oh where did healthcare go... 

[MooseMom]

That is what I am asking, PT.  Trump said he would supply us all with the best and most affordable health insurance.  So, where is it?  It is a simple question.

[Michael Murphy]

Again crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor not a felony.  In the past you got caught, you were deported since the penalty stipulated has to be a minor jail sentence.  This new policy of forcibly separating parents from children reminds me of the nazi death camps separating family’s as they arrived  at the camps.  I don’t think this comparison to concentration camps is offensive because it is offensive what the goverment is doing. If these camps are such a wonderful place why are no congressmen or reporters allowed in to see the conditions in these camps.  In the early 90’s the Bush administration lauded the treatment the returning wounded veterans were receiving at Walter Reed Army hospital only when reporters got in and reported the filthy fetid conditions these vets were in did the goverment fix the problem.  If they will treat returning heroes so badly  why should we believe that these kids are ok.  Trump has attacked the free press so often that he is keeping the American people in the dark on where these kids are, conditions of imprisonment, schooling availability,. In addition by sending parents back without their children which is happening.  And not keeping track of the returned parents children will be permanently seperated from their parents.  If this comparison offends I think the people offended are people who would have approved the final solution.

[PrimeTimer]

That is what I am asking, PT.  Trump said he would supply us all with the best and most affordable health insurance.  So, where is it?  It is a simple question.

I miss the days when co-pays were under $30 and deductibles well under $3,000. Then Obamacare came along. I guess it will be a while for that to be unwound in the system. The insurance companies have handed down their costs to the consumer. We are what makes up "the sandwich". Insurance companies screw us from one side, politicians from another and we're stuck in the middle. No such thing as a free lunch. Unless you are here illegally.

[Simon Dog]

Then Obamacare came along.

There is an aspect of zero-sum game to this.

You cannot increase access to medical care for those that do not have it without concurrently decreasing access (via longer waits or increased prices) for those that do have access.  The Obama administration sold the public a bill of goods by pretending there would not be both winners and losers with any healthcare reform.

[Michael Murphy]

Yes but the republican death committees are removing protections for pre existing conditions and allowing health based premiums to be created for patients.  In other words if you are on dialysis with private insurance you are now unable to change jobs ever.  In fact a layoff may be a economic disaster but with the additional costs for premiums and the two year limit on cobra it could also be a death sentence.  Same problem with health based premiums if the costs escalate high enough they will be a deat sentence.  Trump ran promising best and cheapest insurance.  What he meant was the healthy will pay less and the elderly and sick will just die.  Trumpets need to stop parroting this bigots lines and look at the real effect this nazi is having on people.  From threatening health care to separating families this is beginning to look like Nazi germany in the mid 1930’s.  All we need is a crystalnicht to make the image complete.  Remember the average German support the programs in the 1930’s but turned a blind eye on the crimes of the Naazi state.   If the Germans had stood up in 1936 and said enough the world would have been a better place.  It’s time for Americans to stand up and put a stop to this crap before it gets worse.  Remember those who choose not to learn from history are bound to repeat it.

[MooseMom]

PT and Simon Dog, again, I am asking you where the perfect health insurance plan is that Donald Trump promised us.

You can go ahead and complain about Obamacare, but that's not my question.  Donald Trump sold the public a bill of goods by promising the American people that we would all have the best and most affordable health care.  But neither of you can answer that question. 

The unfortunate thing about Obamacare is that it was never given a chance to work as it was supposed to.  When Republican governors refused to set up their own state exchanges, to be established so that they could manage their own state's finances (but no, they didn't want to cooperate the Black President), they forced the Federal government to manage health insurance in those states, and then those governors whined about the government taking over healthcare!  So, we've gone from a government that tried to give states control over pricing and markets to a government whose President has promised us that he would fix it all, but he has not done so.

So instead of going back in time to complain about the ACA, I'll ask again...what has President Trump/the GOP Congress done to give us what was promised?  Or are only the rich the winners while the rest of us are the losers?  Isn't that the very thing that Trump voters wanted to see abolished, that practice of the elites getting most of everything while the rest of us scramble around, forgotten, for the crumbs?

Or is it that the only goal for Trump and his supporters is to outrage everyone else just for the sheer glee of it?  This is the chaos that Trump voters wanted.  They wanted to "tear it all down", but there was never any talk about what was to be created in its stead.  The goal was to destroy, but now we have no idea of what is to be created.

"I miss the days..." is the rallying cry, isn't it.  I miss the days, too.  I miss the days when America had pride of place in the world instead of kowtowing to strongmen like Putin.  I miss the days when our allies didn't have to tell their populace that they could no longer count on the US for anything.  I miss the days when outrage and chaos and plunder and enabling weren't the means by which we were governed.  I miss the days when, although we all have the right to vote, we all no longer have the ability to do so, those days when voting didn't have to be so damn hard.  I miss the days when the American people still had some semblance of sanity and compassion. 


People were mad when Obama "lied" about being able to keep their doctor?  What about Trump's lies about healthcare?  Are people not mad about THAT?  WHERE IS OUR EASILY ACCESSIBLE, GOOD AND AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE?  Where is it?  That's all I am asking.

[Simon Dog]

I never claimed Trump had the solution.

An honest conversation starts with: Any change will have winners and losers.  We have to accept that some people will not be as well off as they are today as a result of public policy changes, as there is no free lunch.   We cannot give to person A without taking from person B.

Obama started with: Everyone will have access and pay lower rates.   It just doesn't work that way.

A big part of health care reform is establishing a system of transfer payments.

People were mad when Obama "lied" about being able to keep their doctor?  What about Trump's lies about healthcare?  Are people not mad about THAT?

Republicans get mad at Democrats who lie.   Democrats get mad a Republicans who lie.

[Michael Murphy]

It looks like the public outrage has given the Presidunce a heart, he announced he was going to sign something to end family separation now he can concentrate on killing the sick and elderly.

[Bill Peckham]

He will sign something that violates a 1997 consent decree - cannot hold kids >20 days - courts will step in and then he can say the courts are forcing him to seperate families

[MooseMom]

I never claimed Trump had the solution.

Trump claimed he had the solution.  That was a campaign promise he made.

An honest conversation starts with: Any change will have winners and losers.  We have to accept that some people will not be as well off as they are today as a result of public policy changes, as there is no free lunch.   We cannot give to person A without taking from person B.

We're not talking about anyone having a "free lunch", whatever that means.  And just exactly how does one define "winning" and "losing"?  Who cares if Martin Skirelli loses (I'd define a jail sentence as "losing").  We take from Person A to give to person B every single damn day whenever we pay sales tax on anything we buy.  Personally, I'm not going to cry if Ivanka Trump is not as well off as she is today as a result of ANY policy changes that in any remote way helps any American who needs assistance.  An honest conversation starts with the fact that the winners are the swampy elites and the losers are the rest of us. 

I find it very odd that so many people here are using the phrase "free lunch".  There seems to be this pervasive notion that if someone else benefits, then that must mean that I'm losing something, that there is some inherent unfairness.  Trump is always whining about how this is unfair or that is unfair or the press is unfair or the world is unfair.  "Ooooooooh, that guy was so mean to me!  It's all so unfair!"  HE HAS ACTUALLY TWEETED THAT!  We're becoming a nation of victims, wallowing in resentment and grudges.  And it's always, ALWAYS someone else's fault.  Always, someone else is to blame. 

Obama started with: Everyone will have access and pay lower rates.   It just doesn't work that way.

Well, we never got to find out.

Republicans get mad at Democrats who lie.   Democrats get mad a Republicans who lie.

That's a bit of a squidgy reply, is it not?  If there was a policy that Obama enacted that I didn't like, I wrote to him and told him so.  I still have a copy of my letter and his reply.  Trump is not a Republican, anyway.  We should always be mad whenever any leader lies to us, ESPECIALLY one in whom we have put our faith and trust.

[Simon Dog]

And just exactly how does one define "winning" and "losing"?

If person A uses the force of government to seize assets (via taxation or a regulated market) from person B, person A is the winner in the game of transfer payments.

  There seems to be this pervasive notion that if someone else benefits, then that must mean that I'm losing something, that there is some inherent unfairness. 

Perhaps not you, but it is not possible to give someone a govt benefit (including dialysis, disability, etc.) without taking the money to fund that benefit from someone.   It is rarely the person who is receiving the benefit who pays.

[Bill Peckham]

It's what insurance is. Require everyone to maintain it, if they can't afford it subsidize their participation and tada you have an insurance market. Now define what exactly is meant by "insurance" and citizens will have access to healthcare when they need it ... I mean it isn't fundamentally complicated.

[Simon Dog]

You need to either force everyone to have it, or remove the mandate that people who choose not to get insurance get free emergency care.    Given that the later is probably impractical, mandated insurance is the best way to reduce the quantity of transfer payments.

[Bill Peckham]

You need to either force everyone to have it, or remove the mandate that people who choose not to get insurance get free emergency care.    Given that the later is probably impractical, mandated insurance is the best way to reduce the quantity of transfer payments.

Yes, agreed. And if you mandate something you need to say what, exactly, you are mandating. Does it include mental health? Reproductive health? etc. And because some people are poor you need to figure out their way into the system. Medicaid is the least expensive way to provide healthcare to the poorest among us, the oldest, and youngest. For others subsidize their participation through insurance, recognizing that the politics of the situation require we dilute the buying power of payers allowing providers an advantage.

The high cost of healthcare in the US is complicated to justify but a big part is the cost of labor.  In general I am in favor of paying people good wages so alas I don't have a way to immediately address the high cost but a national program does have levers states and private businesses do not - NIH, CDC etc. to work on public health, something that is otherwise missing and costly.

[Michael Murphy]

People forget what created the American middle class, when Henry Ford began paying his workers 5 dollars a week, there was out rage among other business leaders about the amount Henry was paying.  It turned out as Henry was hiring al their best employees more and more businesses began to match Henry’s wages the middle class was born.  People were making enough money to afford a ford car and the American economy took off like a rocket.  Raise the minimum wage and the economy will be boosted a low minimum wage creates a class that can’t afford to shop at the places they work.

[MooseMom]

And here we go...

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/393028-house-gop-2019-budget-calls-for-deep-medicare-medicaid-spending-cuts

[cassandra]

I feel a bit sick,


  http://www.anythingresearch.com/industry/Funeral-Homes.htm