Brexit to go?

[cassandra]

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43535497


Okay, I'm awaiting evidence 

[Paul]

Wooh, shouldn't this be in "Political Debates - Thick Skin Required for Entry"? If there are enough British members from each side, this could become the nastiest argument on the board. There could even be blood.

[kristina]

Wooh, shouldn't this be in "Political Debates - Thick Skin Required for Entry"? If there are enough British members from each side, this could become the nastiest argument on the board. There could even be blood.

Hello Paul ...  and ... I don't really see a chance for any "heated" arguments about it, because, after all, we don't even have an idea whether or not it might be given a chance to happen during our life-time ...

P.S. There is still a lingering suspicion that politicians were taken by surprise when the outcome of voting did not comply with expectations ...

[MooseMom]

Brexit just seems like an unholy mess to me.  It felt so rushed.

I agree with Kristina; I don't know if it is ever going to happen.  And I KNOW that politicians on both sides were taken by surprise by the result.

I have a very distinct memory of being in the car on holiday when the Good Friday Agreement was announced.  Even though I was neither British nor Irish, I felt such pride and relief on behalf of both nations.  I would be so upset if Brexit became a vehicle for the destruction of that agreement.

[Paul]

I don't really see a chance for any "heated" arguments about it

Try going into a bar of an evening and loudly arguing either for or against Brexit, see how long it takes for someone to smash a beer bottle over your head! Many many people have very strong opinions (you'll note that since my post, moderators have moved this to the "Thick Skin Required" board) and public debate on the subject can get nasty.

[Paul]

Ignore this post: I noticed I had typed "bear bottle" instead of "beer bottle", so hit modify to change it. However I must have hit quote instead, as I ended up with two copies of the same post. Cannot delete a post, so I took out all the repeated text instead, and just left this explanation.

[cassandra]

Thanx Paul for your obsevations.


   

[kristina]

I don't really see a chance for any "heated" arguments about it

Try going into a bar of an evening and loudly arguing either for or against Brexit, see how long it takes for someone to smash a beer bottle over your head! Many many people have very strong opinions (you'll note that since my post, moderators have moved this to the "Thick Skin Required" board) and public debate on the subject can get nasty.

Hello again, Paul ... couldn't it just be that the people you mention above, might be a bit stressed and as a result they might have some anger-issues and then, after a few beers in a pub they finally have a chance to "let it all out" whilst "discussing"  the Brexit-issue?
... Just meddling a bit ... but ... what do you think ?

[Paul]

ouldn't it just be that the people you mention above, might be a bit stressed and as a result they might have some anger-issues......

No, Brexit is a seriously contentious issue for most people. The reason you are not aware of how high feelings run is that your friends have enough sense not to discuss it with people they dissagree with in the same way they would not argue religion with someone of widely differing religious beliefs.

To the Brexiteer: The EU is basically the same ideal as Hitler had, unite Europe under Germany. Remaining in the EU is just continuing his work, and a "Remainer" is as bad as a Nazi sympathiser, and should be treated the same as Lord Haw Haw.

To the Remainer Outside the EU Britain will fail, we will fall into a recession worse than any we have known before, a recession there is no way out of. Brexiteers are simply, for their own selfish reasons, driving their country into bankruptcy. They are traitors, and should be treated as any other traitor to their country would be treated.

In other words, both feel, that in a fair and just society, the other side would be executed.

[kristina]

ouldn't it just be that the people you mention above, might be a bit stressed and as a result they might have some anger-issues......

No, Brexit is a seriously contentious issue for most people. The reason you are not aware of how high feelings run is that your friends have enough sense not to discuss it with people they dissagree with in the same way they would not argue religion with someone of widely differing religious beliefs.

To the Brexiteer: The EU is basically the same ideal as Hitler had, unite Europe under Germany. Remaining in the EU is just continuing his work, and a "Remainer" is as bad as a Nazi sympathiser, and should be treated the same as Lord Haw Haw.

To the Remainer Outside the EU Britain will fail, we will fall into a recession worse than any we have known before, a recession there is no way out of. Brexiteers are simply, for their own selfish reasons, driving their country into bankruptcy. They are traitors, and should be treated as any other traitor to their country would be treated.

In other words, both feel, that in a fair and just society, the other side would be executed.

What a very strange combination of thoughts you mention there (above) ! And ... I don't understand where it could possibly be coming from ? A united Europe under Germany? What for? And why ? What about France, Italy, Luxembourg, Belgium and The Netherlands, all who together with Germany were original founders ?
Did not most Brexiteers vote for "exit" because they feel certain that the money can be much better used here in the UK for our National Health Service instead?
I have never heard a Brexiteer talking about what you mentioned above i.e. Nazi sympathizer or Lord Haw Haw in the context of "Brexiting". Instead everyone seems to be talking about the enormous costs and how much better the same money can be used here in the UK for our NHS instead etc.

[Simon Dog]

There is a tendency for governments to try to figure out a way to have a re-vote on an issue when people vote incorrectly.

In those parts of the US where people get to vote on tax overrides or a special tax increase of a new school, the towns just keep re-taking the vote (sometimes with cosmetic changes like a 1% reduction in cost) until they get yes, then no more revotes.

I suspect the govt is trying to find some sort of reason to re-vote the Brexit issue; something that would not have happened if Brexit had lost.

Of course, this could just be paranoia on my part.  I am good at that.

[MooseMom]

Instead everyone seems to be talking about the enormous costs and how much better the same money can be used here in the UK for our NHS instead etc.

Do people really believe that there will be an enormous cash infusion into the NHS as a result of exit (and I don't mean that as a snarky question.  I mean, do those who voted for Brexit have a heartfelt conviction that the NHS will be a main beneficiary of Brexit)?  What do you all think?

[cassandra]

Instead everyone seems to be talking about the enormous costs and how much better the same money can be used here in the UK for our NHS instead etc.

Do people really believe that there will be an enormous cash infusion into the NHS as a result of exit (and I don't mean that as a snarky question.  I mean, do those who voted for Brexit have a heartfelt conviction that the NHS will be a main beneficiary of Brexit)?  What do you all think?

Yes MM a lot of people actually believed that. Some are really stunned that it hasn't happend yet....


And a lot of Brexiteers believed that Germany held too much power......


And a lot of Brexiteers thought that the EU wanted to become a Super State which would controle everything from the colour of toilet rolls to the shape of bananas.


And that the UK could only controle its borders if it were outside the EU.


And that British fisher-men would start fishing again in British waters again.


And blah blah blah


I blame the education system 

[MooseMom]

Thanks for that, cass.  It would be great if the NHS could be the greatest beneficiary of Brexit.  Britain is so proud of it, and quite rightly so, and it deserves to be well funded in all areas of the UK.

[Paul]

What a very strange combination of thoughts you mention there (above) ! And ... I don't understand where it could possibly be coming from ? A united Europe under Germany? What for? And why ? What about France, Italy, Luxembourg, Belgium and The Netherlands, all who together with Germany were original founders ?

I have never heard a Brexiteer talking about what you mentioned

I can only assume you have never spoken to Brexiteers, and that in the weeks after the vote you never listened to a serious news program. I exaggerate a bit when I say "all", but more than half think this. And in the weeks after the vote you could hear these views from supporters loudly and proudly said on all major news programs. For a while the Today program (Radio 4 in the morning) was really really boring as idiot after idiot came on yelling about how we were "free of Germany", and that Britain was a country again, no longer a subject of the German Empire. You can still hear it if you are ever bored enough to listen to a show that give Brexiteers a voice.

My favourite was an elderly gentleman who had lived through the war. He was in tears of joy yelling something like "Our boys, our boys, we got our boys back. So many died but now we got our boys back." He was referring to British soldiers in the Second World War, not sure exactly what he meant, but he went on to explain that now we were out of the EU we had at last won the war and the soldiers could now lie in peace.

Sorry, but before the vote I assumed that Brexiteers were just ordinary people who held different views to me. But since the referendum I cave come to realise that they were actually a bunch of simple minded idiots (with apologies to my father who was one of those idiots).

[Simon Dog]

Wasn't much of the motivation behind the pro-Brexit folks fear of unchecked Muslim immigration that came with EU membership?    Some countries are (in my opinion rightly) fearing a democratically elected Sharia government.

[kristina]

There is a tendency for governments to try to figure out a way to have a re-vote on an issue when people vote incorrectly.

In those parts of the US where people get to vote on tax overrides or a special tax increase of a new school, the towns just keep re-taking the vote (sometimes with cosmetic changes like a 1% reduction in cost) until they get yes, then no more revotes.

I suspect the govt is trying to find some sort of reason to re-vote the Brexit issue; something that would not have happened if Brexit had lost.

Of course, this could just be paranoia on my part.  I am good at that.

Hello Simon, surprisingly, there is some talk to have another vote over Brexit, as the voters obviously voted "incorrectly" and perhaps a "valid" reason might come along very soon to "fit the bill" for another Brexit vote and no, you (and I) are certainly not paranoid ...

[MooseMom]

I was under the impression that the fear of unchecked Muslim immigration was sort of the spark that ignited the Brexit vote rather than the crux of it.

I was also under the impression that it was more the fear of the free movement of labor/people from particularly eastern Europe that was more crucial to the outcome of the vote.  I kept hearing about the horrors of "Polish Plumbers" invading England even while I still lived there, and that was 15 years ago.

England has always been wary of any link to the Continent.  I remember all too well the kerfuffle over the Channel tunnel.  There were a surprising number of people who did NOT want ANY land link the the Continent.  There is a reason that the UK is not part of the Eurozone.  There is a reason that the Euroskeptic part of the Tory government brought down John Major.

I personally can't imagine any Western European country democratically vote for Sharia law as the main governing principle, and to suggest that this could happen is hyperbolic and a bit hysterical.  Can anyone name a country in which there is a real danger of happening?  This may help to ease your mind as far as the UK is concerned.

https://fullfact.org/law/uks-sharia-courts/

[MooseMom]

BTW, there is a difference between being a refugee and being an immigrant.  The millions of people who escaped to Europe in the face of ISIS and other wars are NOT the result of "unchecked immigration".  They are not seeking citizenship, rather, they are seeking refuge.  The number of refugees accepted by member countries was indeed set by the EU.  The problem with the EU in this case was just the overwhelming numbers of people fleeing, and they were not up to it.

The EU should be a more involved player in making countries like Syria safer for all of its citizens.  None of those refugees would willingly have left their homes if they had not had to.  If places like Syria were safe for families to return so they could resume their normal lives, they would do so in a heartbeat.

[kristina]

What a very strange combination of thoughts you mention there (above) ! And ... I don't understand where it could possibly be coming from ? A united Europe under Germany? What for? And why ? What about France, Italy, Luxembourg, Belgium and The Netherlands, all who together with Germany were original founders ?

I have never heard a Brexiteer talking about what you mentioned

I can only assume you have never spoken to Brexiteers, and that in the weeks after the vote you never listened to a serious news program. I exaggerate a bit when I say "all", but more than half think this. And in the weeks after the vote you could hear these views from supporters loudly and proudly said on all major news programs. For a while the Today program (Radio 4 in the morning) was really really boring as idiot after idiot came on yelling about how we were "free of Germany", and that Britain was a country again, no longer a subject of the German Empire. You can still hear it if you are ever bored enough to listen to a show that give Brexiteers a voice.

My favourite was an elderly gentleman who had lived through the war. He was in tears of joy yelling something like "Our boys, our boys, we got our boys back. So many died but now we got our boys back." He was referring to British soldiers in the Second World War, not sure exactly what he meant, but he went on to explain that now we were out of the EU we had at last won the war and the soldiers could now lie in peace.

Sorry, but before the vote I assumed that Brexiteers were just ordinary people who held different views to me. But since the referendum I cave come to realise that they were actually a bunch of simple minded idiots (with apologies to my father who was one of those idiots).

Hello Paul ... I have actually talked with and listened to many Brexiteers, so there you are wrong, but you are right in assuming that I don't know what was/is presented to the public in, as you write, "serious" news programs over Brexit, because I hardly ever listen to news programs ... Why? Because first of all I have no TV and secondly it becomes really hard to figure out, whether or not the public is being served with real news or whether the news happen to be another of these PR-exercises ... Please tell me: Do you know which is which ? I honestly don't ...  and I very much doubt there are many people who really know what is actually going on   ... ?
Today a neighbour told me that there surely must be some people who make lots of money over this Brexit-issue ...

[kristina]

Wasn't much of the motivation behind the pro-Brexit folks fear of unchecked Muslim immigration that came with EU membership?    Some countries are (in my opinion rightly) fearing a democratically elected Sharia government.

I have heard of these fears as well ...

[MooseMom]

Kristina, I watch/listen to a lot of British political programming and also read the online editions of several of the "broadsheets", and frankly, I can't make heads or tails out of Brexit, so I can understand your bewilderment!  I'm not sure you'd be any better informed if you DID watch any of these TV shows!!

[kristina]

Kristina, I watch/listen to a lot of British political programming and also read the online editions of several of the "broadsheets", and frankly, I can't make heads or tails out of Brexit, so I can understand your bewilderment!  I'm not sure you'd be any better informed if you DID watch any of these TV shows!!

Many thanks for your understanding MooseMom ... 
I was beginning to wonder myself because I can't really make head or tails out of Brexit either.
... But we can be rest assured that in about 50 years time everything will have become quite clear about Brexit ... and ... at this moment I would like to get an idea about what is actually going on  ...

[Paul]

I was under the impression that the fear of unchecked Muslim immigration was sort of the spark that ignited the Brexit vote rather than the crux of it.

No the main fear that started it was of European (mostly non-Muslim) immigrants stealing British jobs, using the British health service without paying for it, and getting UK unemployment/housing benefits. Of these only the last one was a fair criticism, because British people have been buggering off to Europe and stealing German and Spanish (and a few other countries) jobs for years, even before we started letting in Europeans. And WRT British health service, the British get a reciprocal deal with the rest of Europe (for example I could go to France, and the local French hospital is obliged by European law to dialyse me for free as necessary), and on balance, we use their health services more than they use ours.

[Paul]

but you are right in assuming that I don't know what was/is presented to the public in, as you write, "serious" news programs over Brexit, because I hardly ever listen to news programs ... Why? Because first of all I have no TV and secondly it becomes really hard to figure out, whether or not the public is being served with real news or whether the news happen to be another of these PR-exercises ...

(A) Paranoid Much?

(B) An intelligent person should be able to tell the difference, not hide from facts trembling in fear in case they are lies.

(C) Well if you don't listen to the news how the hell can you claim to know anything about anything? (Radio will do if you don't have a TV, I get most of my news from the Today program on radio 4 and only watch the TV news when my dialysis over runs and I catch it there.) All you know is what a few of your friends tell you, a skewed partial view of the world. Few facts and a lot of opinions. This explains why you are about the only person in Britain unaware of the opinionated attitude both sides of the Brexit argument tend to spout.

(D) If you are afraid of "fake news", the way it spreads is via friends and the Internet. If you don't have the "real" news to compare it with, then you will never be able to tell what is fake, and what is true. So how do you know that what your friends tell you is "true" news, or something they read on David Icke's website?