OTTO Poor Kid....

[Rerun]

Otto is the young man who went to N. Korea on a tour and decided to take a poster as a souvenir.  He got caught and thrown in prison.  You probably know the rest of the tragic story.

What do we as a Nation do, if anything, about this?               

I just can't get him off my mind.  I know lots of kids who may do the same thing.  Think it would be funny.  Because in our country it would be no big deal.  Should he have done it NO.  Should he have died because he did it, Hell NO.

Any thoughts?     

[smartcookie]

What concerns me more than anything, is that N. Korea tried to hide it for so long, even though care of him was expensive.  It would have been more beneficial for them to ship him home when he first became ill, hurt or whatever happened to him.  The cover up is disturbing to me. 
I feel for his family and friends, but in all fairness, with the crazy N. Korea regime he should have been cautioned against taking anything, especially propaganda.  N. Korea has a history of doing this sort of thing.  Let this be a lesson to anyone traveling to N. Korea. 

[Michael Murphy]

Strangely enough NK uses tourism to get money for trade.  The NK airline actually runs tours so airplane fans can ride on various Cold War Russian planes.  These tours are quite popular.  The tour company that Otto used just announced it was canceling all tours.  Personally I believe a full blockade on all ship and plane traffic going into NK should be put in place.  In addition the Navy should start shooting down NK missle launches.

[Simon Dog]

The tour company that Otto used just announced it was canceling all tours.

I think they were just cancelling tours for Americans.

he should have been cautioned against taking anything

Yeah, like a trip to NK.

What do we as a Nation do, if anything, about this? 

I am confident our government will express stern condemnation and righteous indignation.  First thing I would do if I were president is rescind the executive order banning assassinating foreign leaders, then make a speech "It shall be the goal of this nation to kill Assad and the fat boy before this decade is out and bringing the assassin safely home".

[Michael Murphy]

Actually large loophole in the don't assassinate foreign leaders.  If we decide on military action command and control is a viable and legal target, find out where the wimp,is and drop a massive penetrator on his bunker.






sp mod Cas

[Charlie B53]

I agree that he did not need to die for his errors.  However..............

We need to teach our Children better.  Laws in other Countries are not at all like those here in the U.S.A., nor like those in Europe.  'Civilized' Countries unsure basic human rights where many Countries do not do much for those person incarcerated.  As far as medical care/treatment, there may be NONE. Food, minimal.  Many Countries if the convicted person doesn't have family or friends to help support then they may have a very difficult existence.

This kid didn't know this.  I suspect he just assumed it would be like a big joke.  He would get a slap on the hands and sent home.  That didn't happen. Oxygen starvation of the brain could have been a result of mistreatment at the hands of another prisoner, or from cruelty of the guards.  We may never know.

Sad that it  happened.

But I don't doubt things like this have happened before, and will again.  Our Kids need to learn better and ALWAYS be far more careful when visiting other Countries.







sp mod Cas

[Simon Dog]

As far as medical care/treatment, there may be NONE. Food, minimal. 

Just look a the US, and realize other countries can be much worse.  People die in prison because of the difficulties they face getting things like colonoscopies, early cancer treatment, etc.

And I know from someone who works there, that Bridgewater (prison for the mentally committed in MA) keeps prisoners on a low calorie diet to keep them to bulking up.

[kristina]

Otto is the young man who went to N. Korea on a tour and decided to take a poster as a souvenir.  He got caught and thrown in prison.  You probably know the rest of the tragic story.

What do we as a Nation do, if anything, about this?               

I just can't get him off my mind.  I know lots of kids who may do the same thing.  Think it would be funny.  Because in our country it would be no big deal.  Should he have done it NO.  Should he have died because he did it, Hell NO.

Any thoughts?     

Dear Rerun,
like yourself I am very sorry for Otto! Taking a poster from a Hotel as a souvenir seems such a little thing, whereas in a country like North Korea this action cost him his freedom and eventually his life.
Unfortunately it is still important to point out, that when visiting Rome, we must do as the Romans do, otherwise we might find ourselves in terrible trouble...
... I remember reading in the papers many years ago about a young tourist who visited one of these countries and, when he attempted to pay for something, money fell out of his hand and he stepped on it with his foot, before picking it up again and because of this action he was put to death, because it just so happened that he put his foot on the head of the ruler of this country which was clearly printed on the money and stepping on it was the death-sentence for this young tourist.
Sad stories, but important to know before we think about visiting any of these countries....

[Jean]

I think we should stop visiting other countries.. The American Buck needs to stop right here. Maybe then the dictators would see the light and not let this happen again, ever.

[Simon Dog]

money fell out of his hand and he stepped on it with his foot, before picking it up again and because of this action he was put to death, because it just so happened that he put his foot on the head of the ruler of this country which was clearly printed on the money and stepping on it was the death-sentence for this young tourist.

I don't think they give the death sentence for it, but this is currently the law in Thailand (the last semi-civilized bastion of lese majeste laws).

[KarenInWA]

I think we should stop visiting other countries.. The American Buck needs to stop right here. Maybe then the dictators would see the light and not let this happen again, ever.

Part of Freedom is Freedom of Movement - including visiting other countries. While visiting places like North Korea should be banned/blocked/whatever, to stop visiting ALL countries is ludricous and incredibly short-sighted. To be able to travel overseas or even just over the border to Canada or Mexico can broaden one's horizons in many incredible and amazing ways.

If you want to see riots in the streets, close our borders to all outside travel - both in and out - and see what happens. No thank you.

KarenInWA

[Jean]

Not forever, but temporarily!! there is plenty to see and do right here in the good old USA!!

[PrimeTimer]

Not forever, but temporarily!! there is plenty to see and do right here in the good old USA!!

You are absolutely right, Jean! We'd love to take a cross-country drive and go see places like Mount Rushmore, the Grand Canyon and Wash DC. We saw some of these places as kids but want to go back only this time when we pull the car over, it will be because we want to do some sight-seeing or eat instead of "dad". If you know what I mean. 


People don't realize that in some countries when you pay a guide or a local for their hospitality, most of the money if not all of it goes to their commie govt or evil dictator. Young people have disappeared while back-packing in Laos. Personally, I would not travel to these countries and fund their evil ways and abuses of their own people.

[KarenInWA]

Well, Jean, again, even a temporary ban is a ban on Freedom, and that is not what this country is about. Business is conducted internationally, people have family and friends in other countries. I personally do not want to live in a dictatorship that is going to block my ability to leave the country for any period of time - do you?

And yes, there is plenty to see and do in this country, as there are plenty to do and see in other countries as well. I do not want to live in a bubble. I've always looked at the Republican mind set as "those who live in a bubble" and this idea proves it.

KarenInWA

[Rerun]

A ban would say.  Don't go and if you do.  It is your problem.  We are not putting American lives in danger to come get you.

You would still have your freedom to be stupid.

[Jean]

I agree Rerun. I dont know how to make people realize they are taking their very lives in their hands going to other countries with their very strange and  twisted ideas about what is right and wrong. I am a lucky girl, as I just came home from a 5 day cruise. Just getting off and on the ship requires your passport, your ID, your room key, being patted down and scrutinized, and this was only to Ensenada Mexico. I cant even imagine what you have to go thru to go to another country. Why bother with them, especially if you have to go thru even more with times like these. I always thought I would like to go to
england and maybe France, and look who the terrorists struck so recently.

[Michael Murphy]

I spent a year working in Mexico during the late 90's.  When I first arrived in Monterey, Mexico I had read the visa requirements on the flight down and I needed a business visa.  One of the first off the plane I went to the Mexican Immigration line.  As I walked up the Immigration inspector asked pleasure and I responded no business we ran through this about 6 times when a supervisor showed up.  He spoke excellent English so I proceeded to tell him that I was there on Buisness.  He then explained to me the forms for buisness travel were a bit extreme and it would be easier for everyone if I came in on a travel visa.  I apologized and told him I read the rules on the plane and since I was a visitor I felt I should follow Mexican rules.  He said that was nice but again explained they wanted to avoid the paper work.  So I asked for the pleasure visa the supervisor clapped me on the back and welcomed me to Monterrey and hoped I would have a good time. Now out of Immigration I got on line for Customs.  As I waited on line the Immigration supervisor went over to a custom official pointed me out and laughed,  I thought Oh God I was going to be strip searched.  They just waved me through no baggage search.  For the rest of my time in Mexico I was never searched going through customs, later on when I was traveling with others I worked with they all had detailed baggage inspections while I was just waved through.  It brought home to me I was a guest in Mexico and should treat everyone there with respect,  I tried to do this and I learned that the Mexican workers were great to work with.

[iolaire]

Just getting off and on the ship requires your passport, your ID, your room key, being patted down and scrutinized, and this was only to Ensenada Mexico. I cant even imagine what you have to go thru to go to another country. Why bother with them, especially if you have to go thru even more with times like these.

The only places I get patted own and scrutinized is here in the US in the TSA lines to get onto planes and maybe once or twice at the additional screening in a foreign airport mandated by the USA right before you get on a USA bound flight.

[kristina]

money fell out of his hand and he stepped on it with his foot, before picking it up again and because of this action he was put to death, because it just so happened that he put his foot on the head of the ruler of this country which was clearly printed on the money and stepping on it was the death-sentence for this young tourist.

I don't think they give the death sentence for it, but this is currently the law in Thailand (the last semi-civilized bastion of lese majeste laws).

Hello Simon, with a bit of luck, some of these countries may have gone a tiny little bit easier about such "things", but many years ago it was still a good reason for a death-sentence...

[KarenInWA]

Then there was the time my sister and I came back from an overnight stayed in Victoria, BC via the Victoria Clipper in Seattle. You have to go through security via the Seattle Police on your way back in, and they inspect anything you're bringing back from Canada. One of my co-workers had given me $20 to spend on Canadian junk food, so I had a bag full of chips and candy, etc. The policeman started to go through it, saw what it was, then waved me in, chuckling about all the chips and candy I had. I thought it was pretty funny, myself 

KarenInWA

[smartcookie]

My husband and I went on a cruise for our honeymoon.  In Cozumel, Mexico, my hubby found a great deal on beer, three Dos Equis for $1!!  Problem was, we were getting ready to board the ship and it would not pass through customs.  Needless to say, he chugged all three back to back!!  It was hilarious! 

[monrein]

http://www.wendyperrin.com/7-keys-traveling-without-fear-despite-terrorist-attacks/

At the risk of sounding rational I'd just like to point out that one of the best ways to feel less fearful is to look at facts and the statistical risks of any given threat. The article above addresses this.
There are some who are so fearful of the world that they rarely leave their home let alone their country. No rational person of fear would ever get into a car. Eating is especially dangerous due to the risk of choking. Mama Cass was done in by a bite of ham sandwich I think it was.
For one to feel nervous about travelling is one thing and little enjoyment can be expected from anything if one is scared to death.  I can understand and empathize with fearful people but to think that this fear provides a rational basis for restricting travel to inside the US is quite another. One of the places that some of my friends and acquaintances are currently avoiding is the US for a variety of reasons including the statistically high number of gun related deaths. This also is not particularly rational although the statistics are alarming.
Life of course requires some caution, a healthy dose of common sense as well as valid information and life is indeed a risky business. No one gets out alive. I personally place a very high value on living the richest, most interesting, most adventurous, most varied and educational life possible and available to me. I enjoy culture shock and do not think that the ways I know best are necessarily the best ways. The restrictions of kidney disease are enough without allowing irrational fears to restrict me even further. I've travelled the world quite widely and canoed northern Canada including the Arctic, had encounters with bears, been scared of certain rapids and chosen to portage rather than run them to be on the safe side. I also foresee a time as I get older when I will want to stay closer to home as I feel more physically vulnerable and stressed by the rigours of travel. Already I like three days without plans to recover from jet lag and that's just to Europe. I'm not quite there yet however and I'm looking forward to spending another month in Paris, possibly next year. May and October are my favourite months there. I also remember travelling to London when attacks by the IRA were all the rage.  Our tightest restriction or most limiting limit is often the one we impose on ourself and the mind is such a tricky organ.