The Trump/Russia connection thread

[MooseMom]

Of equal importance, and what this thread was originally about, is the fact that Trump's campaign manager and asst. campaign manager have both been indicted AGAIN.  Rick Gates as agreed to testify against Manafort, who could very well end up in prison for the rest of his life.  Just to refresh your collective memories, both of these men have financial ties to Russia that are decidedly shady, hence the two sets of indictments.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/robert-mueller’s-new-indictment-of-paul-manafort-and-rick-gates-explained/ar-BBJtFvt

Let's play the "Can you imagine if Obama...." game. 

Can you imagine if Obama's campaign had been headed by two fraudsters, one of whom worked as a propagandist (Manafort) for the Putin backed strong man of the Ukraine who had jailed his political opponent?  Can you imagine the righteous indignation of the entire GOP?

[Michael Murphy]

What I finally realized was that the gun club will not compromise on sane gun control.  They object to stopping people on the terrorist watch list being banned from buying guns.  They can’t fly but they can purchase a high powered military grade weapon.  Since 65 percent of all Americans support reasonable gun control.  The only option left is to rewrite the second admendment into a reasonable peice of the constitution banning all weapons that did not exist prior to 1865.  Remember no other right given by the Constitution is inlimited even the cherished 1 admendment does not let you scream fire in a crowded theater.  Again no compromise on gun control ban em all.  Then allow a small selection of approved guns.  We are allowing a small and deluded set of people to allow the crazy or the terrorist to hunt down and kill our children.  If you support gun control never vote for the death merchants who sell their vote to the NRA.

[Simon Dog]

People on my side have no problem with a system to deny terrorists weapons.    The system should include due process, including a hearing before an impartial finder of fact, the right to see all evidence used against you, and the right to confront any witness against you via sworn cross examination.  The same should go for any other deprivation of right or liberty, including the right to use public transport of any form.   We head down a slippery slope when the government can use secret evidence against citizens without any provision for due process.

The 2A is VERY limited.  Just read NFA 34, GCA 68, 18 USC 922(g), and the thousands of state laws.  In my state, being found not guilty of a crime or exercising fifth amendment rights has been upheld by the courts as valid reasons to deny an individual their 2A rights.

I do believe in compromise, but compromise is both sides getting and giving.   How would you feel about a compromise like "extended background checks including mental health" that went along with driver's license style carry permit reciprocity?   Or do you mean "take less from the other side than you want and come back for the rest later" form of compromise?  "Compromises" offered by the other side are rarely anything other than "give us some of what we want, we give you nothing".

Also, it is not possible to buy a politician.  They can only be rented. 

As to the Trump election thing - this whole fiasco is proving one thing.   It is not how you play the game that counts but whether you win or lose when it comes to federal elections.   A few minions are going to go down, but nothing will change who won and who lost and the big fish on both sides will skate free.

[Rerun]

Still Waiting..... no evidence....

   

[MooseMom]

Dearie me, Rerun, where have you BEEN?  LOL!

[Paul]

Still Waiting..... no evidence....

You not seen the way that, despite advice to the contrary, Trump sucked up to Putin after he won the "election". That cost Trump major popularity loss, and it was blindingly obvious in advance that it would loose him some of his core supporters. He would not have done it if he were not obliged to do so.

[MooseMom]

Why won't Trump just release his tax returns to prove that he has no financial reason to collude with Russia? 

We all know that there was Russian interference in our election, and people have already been indicted.  The question is whether or not Trump knowingly colluded or if he was merely a useful idiot.

I don't think Mueller is going to try to criminally charge him.  I do suspect, however, that he has evidence that could possibly lead to impeachment.

[kickingandscreaming]

Still Waiting..... no evidence....

I guess you are incapable of recognizing the corruption that oozes from your "savior's" pores and infects everyone he surrounds himself with.

[MooseMom]

Still Waiting..... no evidence....

   

And I am still waiting for Mexico to fork over the pesos for that stupid-ass wall that Trump keeps banging on about.  I mean, he DID promise that Mexico would pay for it, right?  So, why is it in the budget?  And why is Trump yelling about taking the money for it from the military?  No one voted for THAT!   

[Simon Dog]

Screw payment for the wall.

Mexico can reimburse the US for the free medical care; bi-lingual or Spanish language education; welfare and public assistance that we provide to their illegal immigrants and in return the US can reimburse Mexico for all the medical care, education, and housing that it provides to our citizens illegally residing in Mexico.

[Paul]

Putin has one friend: Syria. He needs to keep Syria happy because Bashar al-Assad is one of his few allies. But America does not agree with Putin. They consider Al-Assad to be a bad leader, and the Syrian situation to require American intervention, so there are still a couple of thousand American troops over there. Putin hates this. Putin wants them out. But America does not kowtow to Putin, so will not bring it's troops home.

Oops, sorry, forgot: Trump owes Putin, so Trump has to kowtow to Putin. Hence the news this morning was full of reports of Trump's attempts to bring home the troops to keep Putin happy.

Sorry Rerun, your wait is well and truly over.

[Rerun]

OBummer also congratulated Putin on his last victory.  Nothing was said about that.

Oh, if Muller could find anything on Trump he would have him in jail.  But, What Muller is finding is collusion with the DNC, Hillary, and OBummer with the Russians. 

When you point your finger at someone.... three fingers are pointing back at you.

Why do you Libtards want drugs and criminals pouring over into our country?  What the hell is wrong with you people?  Let people get in line and come here legally.   

Trump is doing a great job!  MEGA

[Paul]

OBummer also congratulated Putin on his last victory.  Nothing was said about that.

Just because someone else did the same thing, does not make it OK. A couple of my ex-neighbours were drug dealers, that does not make it OK for me to stand outside a high school selling the kids grade A heroin!

Trump is doing a great job!  MEGA

That is an entirely different point, for an entirely different debate. The fact that (in your opinion) he is doing a good job does not magically mean he did not have help getting there from Putin. It is quite possible to get a position with the help of a communist dictator and also do a good job.

The problem here is that you think Trump is a good president, and it is blinding you to any bad things he may have done. That is actually quite insulting to Trump, you are not treating him as a human.

[Rerun]

Okay then, just because one person does something does not make it right for others to do it... then Trump should repeal same sex marriage.  OBummer made it the law of the land.  That doesn't make it right.  Deductive reasoning.....

I reserve the right to be wrong...  Do you?  We will see what Muller finally pulls out of his ass.
If Trump is guilty I will comply.  If Trump is "not" guilty then you need to concede. 

I'm pretty sure OBummer worshipers were the blind ones.  I do think Trump is doing an amazing job.  Because I have conservative values and because I get him.  I know when he is joking and when he is not.  He is human.  That is what I love about him. 

[MooseMom]

Screw payment for the wall.

Mexico can reimburse the US for the free medical care; bi-lingual or Spanish language education; welfare and public assistance that we provide to their illegal immigrants and in return the US can reimburse Mexico for all the medical care, education, and housing that it provides to our citizens illegally residing in Mexico.

What??  Screw payment for the wall?  How many times did Trump campaign on forcing Mexico to pay for the wall?  He cannot get up in front of his base in, say, Iowa and blather on about reciprocal reimbursement.  His fans want to see Mexico paying for the damn wall JUST LIKE HE PROMISED.  And it is not going to happen.

Besides, why are you paying so much attention to just Mexico?  Are you proposing that Honduras and other Central/South American countries pay for the wall, too?

No, you and I and every American taxpayer are going to have to pay for that wall, so thanks for that.  I guess we can use the gazillions of extra money we all get because of the wonderful tax cuts to pay for Trump's obsession.

[MooseMom]

Rerun, I've asked you one specific question several times now, and you have never answered.  I am genuinely curious, so I will ask yet again...

You are a Christian woman as you've said many, many times on this forum.  Your evangelical faith has shined through many of your posts over the years.  Why do your morals and evangelical Christian values get kicked to the curb when it comes to Trump?

This man is an adulterer.  He is a liar.  Why is this OK with you?  If you really "get him", then how can you be a true Christian?

This man lives to humiliate people he regards as not being on his side.  His name calling is immature.  But you "get him".

Donald Trump is incapable of empathy.  He has surrounded himself with people who have used their positions to collude with Russian (see Manafort) and to enrich themselves.  Yet you "get him".

Donald Trump is no conservative as any true conservative will tell you (see George Will, for one).  Which "conservative values" does he have?  He has Fox News values, nothing more.  No one knows what he stands for.  He will say one thing on one day to distract his base, and the very next day he will either do the opposite or will do nothing, all behind the backs of his voters.  Do you "get" this?

Trump can't repeal same sex marriage because he is not representative of the Judicial Branch.  And that's another problem with this president.  He does not know what he can and cannot do Constitutionally.  Do you "get" that?

Yes, we will see what Mueller and his team find out. And then we will see what Congress does with that information.

But perhaps in the end, it won't matter because as of now, Democrats are getting the votes in elections all over the nation.  Those people who voted for Trump because they thought he'd be his own version of "hope and change" already see that they don't want "dread and fear", and they will vote accordingly.  But those Trump voters who voted for him because they think he's "like me" will probably continue to do so.  Those people who "get" Trump will never be convinced otherwise.

It is probably true that Obama congratulated Putin for winning an election, but the point is that Obama did not do so while he was under investigation for colluding with the Russians as they hacked our election.   

[iolaire]

then Trump should repeal same sex marriage.  OBummer made it the law of the land.  That doesn't make it right.  Deductive reasoning.....

What law did Obama create regarding same sex marriage? 

I seem to remember that the US Supreme Court ruled the Defense of Marriage Act was unconstitutional? 

[MooseMom]

Well, iolaire, everyone knows that Obama secretly thought he was a King, and a Muslim one at that.

Can you IMAGINE the nuclear explosion that would have resulted among conservatives, especially the Evangelical Christians, if Obama had committed adultery and had been sued by a porn star?   Isn't it nice that Trump gets a "mulligan"?  But it's OK because his voters "get him".

Does anyone remember the grief that Obama got for wearing beige trousers? 

[iolaire]

Does anyone remember the grief that Obama got for wearing beige trousers?

To be fair I glanced at this for a bit this morning What Is Going on with Trump’s Pant Legs? One Humble Theory.

[Paul]

]I reserve the right to be wrong...  Do you?[/size]

To be honest, if I am wrong then America is truly screwed. I am working on the theory that Trump kowtows to Putin because he owes him for the election. But if I am wrong, the only reason for Trump to kowtow to Putin is that Trump is a closet commie, and really, really, really don't want the US president to be a commie!

[Rerun]

MM - You continue to throw my faith in my face.  Christians accept the blood of Jesus Christ for forgiveness.... again and again.  I need forgiveness everyday (sad to say) but all I can do is try.  My faith gives me hope for eternal life.  And living on dialysis as you know.... oh wait you don't know.  So, as a Christian Woman I don't like that Trump has had 3 wives and probably cheated on them all.  But, when Bill Clinton did it .... oh, that had nothing to do with his political life.  So, again, I should not be Judging Clinton, but I needed to make my point. If Obama ever cheated on Michelle My Belle....  She would KILL him and I think he pretty much knows that.        Does that answer your question about my faith ??    You continue to call me stupid and try to make me feel uneducated and frivolous.   That is fine, I can take it.  I hope it makes you feel better.

I "Get" when Trump threatens Tariffs, that he is just shaking things up so China and Canada have to look at the uneven playing field.  Then they may both pull back on such a ridiculous slant.  I "Get" him being tough with Kim in N. Korea.  And look.... they are going to talk.  I "get" that the tax cuts have put $75 a month more in my friend's pay check and that is not "crumbs" to him.  I "get" that Trump is kidding when he said we should go to an indefinite term for President.  He laughed and so did I.   Your Media went ballistic down that rabbit hole for a week..  I laughed again.

I think your elitist attitude gets in the way of commonsense. 

Where is your tolerance and diversity? 

[MooseMom]

Thank you for finally answering my question, RR.  I am very glad to hear that you "don't like it" that the man you voted for to occupy the highest elected office in the United States of America is an adulterer and a liar. 

I don't need to throw anybody's faith in their face, but I will throw hypocrisy in that direction.

Far from denigrating your faith, I admire it and wish I had it. 

I didn't ask you about Bill Clinton, but I can certainly understand why you'd judge him.  If I had been living in the US at that time, I'd certainly be judging him!

I live in a state where farming is an essential industry, and the people where I live don't "get" that Trump is threating tariffs and most certainly do NOT appreciate him "shaking things up" with China just for the hell of it.

I hope your friend's extra $75 will make him feel really good as the billionaires get 1,000 time that much in tax cuts.

I hope that extra $75 will make him feel even better while Trump gets money from Russia.

An extra $75 SHOULD feel like crumbs!  That's the whole point. 

When have I EVER called you stupid?  I'm sure you think a lot of my views are stupid, and I feel the same about some of yours, too, but I've never called you stupid because I don't think you are. 

[MooseMom]

And living on dialysis as you know.... oh wait you don't know. 
 

Well said, Rerun.  A line has been crossed. 

I've been a part of this community for a very long time, and I can honestly say that I have never...not once...felt harmed or hurt by any comment directed at me in this "Political Debate Forum".  I've never taken any comment personally because as I see it, we are all in this ESRD thing together, and that is what counts.  None of this other political bluster is really important. 

But when I read this particular comment, something broke.

[Rerun]

I guess I'm just a little jealous.  opps sinned again.  But, having to actually sit on the machine for hours and feeling like crap and going in for fistulagram after fistulagram .  Well, it ain't for sissies!    You got to skip out on that and that is wonderful.  But,  as close as you were to dialysis you didn't have to do that. 

I'm not going to look through the thousands of posts to find the stupid remark or similar descriptive words but the way it made me feel.....   

Anyone with kidney disease or cares for one with kidney disease is one of us.  Transplant is another form of dialysis (the best one). 

My choice at Election 2016 time was a Man who "may" have cheated on his wives (although they seem to support his presidency)

or a Liar Liar pantsuit on fire woman who was STILL married to a Man who cheated on her and she degraded those woman and didn't believe them...   UGH!

[MooseMom]

No one can call our Rerun a sissy.

I'm acutely aware of the fact that as close as I came to dialysis, I did not have to actually do it...YET.  I think about that every single time I even LOOK at IHD.  I have such conflicted emotions about it.  On the one hand, I could have just left the community.  I got my new kidney, I didn't have to go on dialysis, so off I could go!  That would have been the easiest thing to do.  But I thought that perhaps I still had something to offer.  Perhaps I don't and am only fooling myself.

I also didn't want anyone thinking I'd abandoned the community that I had grown to be quite fond of over the years.

I joined IHD because my kidneys were dying and also because my mother had just had surgery that ended up killing her kidneys.  We lived in different cities, but whenever we were together, I was her primary caregiver.  I've seen the dark side of dialysis.

My mother contracted a UTI that led to sepsis.  I flew down to stay with her in Texas for two weeks while she was in intensive care.  She was hallucinating and screaming at me while I was on the phone with the tx bods in Wisconsin; they were trying to tell me that they would list me once they were assured I had adequate insurance.  I should have been happy that day, but I wasn't, obviously.

I had to leave my mother's bedside because I had already skipped one appointment with my neph and couldn't afford to miss another.  I flew home, and the next day (the day of my appointment), she died.  I didn't get the chance to say goodbye because of my damned kidneys and the stupid bureaucracy.

I know that none of this compares to what you've had to do to just survive.  I don't really know why I'm talking about it.  I have never shared that particular story with anyone other than my husband.  I guess that ESRD, whether it is your own or your mother's, is just so painful in so many ways that never really occur to you until you're there.

I've been reading your posts for such a long time, and I cringe every time I read about yet another fistulagram or yet another setback of some sort.  I feel such dismay whenever I read that your spirits are low, or you are feeling hopeless, or you are feeling bitter or angry or frustrated.  It makes me feel helpless.  But I recognize my feelings are irrelevant and useless.  Still, I wanted you to know.

I wish I could heal you.

The last thing you need is for someone here on IHD making you feel stupid, and for that, I am deeply sorry.  That was certainly not my intention, but if I made you feel bad in any way, my intention is irrelevant.

Your explanation of your choice at Election 2016, in those words, actually makes sense to me, believe it or not! 

I just hope we're not going to have to learn Russian!