War on Cops

[MooseMom]

The military doctrine comes to mind:

1. Be courteous to all; friendly to none
2. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet

Is the Military Doctrine appropriate in a civilian setting if you are not a member of an occupying army?  Or are you just being too clever by half? lol

[kickingandscreaming]

Quote from: MooseMom on Today at 11:08:08 AM

    But would a police officer necessarily know that you are no threat?

The military doctrine comes to mind:

1. Be courteous to all; friendly to none
2. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet

And that's a very big piece of the problem.  There is a very high percentage of people who move from the military to the police force.  And they come to their jobs with an implicit bias to see the population as enemies.  Couple that with a lot of under treated mental imbalances, a basic authoritarian nature, a macho frame of mind,  and an arsenal of military "toys" and you have the makings of the mess that we're in.

[kristina]

Quote from: MooseMom on Today at 11:08:08 AM

    But would a police officer necessarily know that you are no threat?

The military doctrine comes to mind:

1. Be courteous to all; friendly to none
2. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet

And that's a very big piece of the problem.  There is a very high percentage of people who move from the military to the police force.  And they come to their jobs with an implicit bias to see the population as enemies.  Couple that with a lot of under treated mental imbalances, a basic authoritarian nature, a macho frame of mind,  and an arsenal of military "toys" and you have the makings of the mess that we're in.

That sort of scenario really sounds frightening !

[Simon Dog]

There is a very high percentage of people who move from the military to the police force.

Here in MA (where cops frequently top $100K; much more in Boston and the state police) it is pretty much impossible to become a police officer without preference points on the exam.  The common way for a non-diverse applicant to earn those extra points (to get over 100% on the civil service exam) is military service.

[Michael Murphy]

It's not the background but it's a training issue.  The BLM thinks every thing is a crime.  The best example is the Eric Gardener case from Staten Island. Cop was sent out to arrest Gardener and he put up a fight.  Cop used a choke hold (which is against NYPD. Since its against policy the BLM wants the cop charged.
Problem is NYPD does not make law with its policy.  Choke hold is not against state law, the worst the cop should get is being fired.  I doubt a arbitrator would even allow that. The problem is the examples of killings like the South Carolina case where the cop just gunned down from behind a guy fleeing a traffic ticket.

[Rerun]

Well,  MM, I could try and get shot.  When the cop said "step out of the car"  I could say "I ain't gett'n out of my car for nobody"

When the cop said "Mamm STEP out of your car" I could look at him/her and say "FU PIG"

Maybe not shot but I would deserve to be TAZZZED!

When the cop says Get Out The Car.....  ?    Get Out The CAR!!!!

The third cop in the Freddy Gray case was let off today.  They are trying to get them to just drop the case.  All the public is doing is prejudging the cases before the facts are out.  The cops are guilty and have to be proven innocent.  That's not right.

[Charlie B53]

It is the 'Kill or be killed' mindset that is the problem.   Rather than use more non-lethal methods the 'militarized' police come in locked, loaded, and with the safety turned OFF, ready to kill, not incapacitate, kill.   That is what they are taught.  Fire for center of mass, which is the heart or within a couple of inches.  Most likely to kill.

I couldn't tell you the number of drug raids, no knock warrants, where surprised people failed to immediately freeze, and even then some of those holding anything that could possibly be IMAGINED a weapon have been shot and killed.  Only later was it learned they were raiding the WRONG house!  Think that mattered to the dead?    And all were ruled 'Good Shoot'.  No charges against anyone.

But the Police attitude must change.  No more covering up for each other.  That itself should be a punishable crime as it is aiding and abetting a crime, if not actual conspiracy.   Before they can effectively be accepted by the public they need to seriously begin to police themselves.   And this whole paragraph needs to go national, if not world-wide.

And you can quote me if you like cause I'm willing to put my name on this!

Charlie B53






EDIT:  Added last statement and signature - Charlie B53 - 7/19/16

[Simon Dog]

Google "Eurie Stamps".  He was shot while complying with a Framingham, MA police officer's order and the police do not dispute it was an accidental discharge.   The fix was in from the beginning, with the ADA using terms like "accident for which no charges are appropriate" before the body was cold.  The officer remains on duty.

Around the same time, a man shot his friend with a BB gun a couple of towns over by accident (this part was undisputed) and it penetrated his skull requiring surgery.  Guess what?  The mere fact that he shot someone by accident was sufficient to justify felony charges.

And don't even think of getting justice of a police officer shoots your dog.

The double standard fuels the mistrust.

[Rerun]

There is Mistrust.  Life is not Fair.  You should mistrust authority.

Your Dad says be in by 10.....   you better trust he is going to ground you if you are not in by 10 if you are a girl and maybe not ground you if you are a boy.  That's life.

Your boss wants you there because dialysis starts at 5:30am and you are late.  Your ass should be fired. 

You don't show up late and not expect consequences! 

If they say get out of the car and keep you hands in sight.  You better follow directions.  You don't mouth off.....

These kids who don't have a Dad at home or a strong Mom to set rules and have consequences grow up NEVER having respect for authority.  Then they are surprised when they get shot?

We don't need to soften as a society because some are choosing to NOT teach their young to respect authority.

[willowtreewren]

Rerun said:

If they say get out of the car and keep you hands in sight.  You better follow directions.  You don't mouth off.....

You completely fail to recognize all the cases where the victim was complying with police demands and was still shot. You pretend to understand the problem without recognizing the overwhelming bias against People of Color. We were pulled over in Massachusetts for a burned out tail light. We didn't even get a ticket - just a reminder to get it fixed. If we had been driving a clunker and black, I doubt we would have gotten the same treatment. THAT is white privilege and we have to recognize that we have it. Being poor and/or black should not be a crime.

Rerun YOU have white privilege, whether you want to recognize it or not. Your suggestion that if one simply follows directions, nothing bad will happen to you comes from your perspective of white privilege. You don't have to constantly worry about what might happen to you for the slightest perceived provocation.

Charlie B53 said:

It is the 'Kill or be killed' mindset that is the problem.   Rather than use more non-lethal methods the 'militarized' police come in locked, loaded, and with the safety turned OFF, ready to kill, not incapacitate, kill.   That is what they are taught.  Fire for center of mass, which is the heart or within a couple of inches.  Most likely to kill.

I couldn't tell you the number of drug raids, no knock warrants, where surprised people failed to immediately freeze, and even then some of those holding anything that could possibly be IMAGINED a weapon have been shot and killed.  Only later was it learned they were raiding the WRONG house!  Think that mattered to the dead?    And all were ruled 'Good Shoot'.  No charges against anyone.

But the Police attitude must change.  No more covering up for each other.  That itself should be a punishable crime as it is aiding and abetting a crime, if not actual conspiracy.   Before they can effectively be accepted by the public they need to seriously begin to police themselves.   And this whole paragraph needs to go national, if not world-wide.

And you can quote me if you like cause I'm willing to put my name on this!

Charlie B53

This is a succinct summary of the problem as it stands today. Without trust working in both directions, we aren't going to see much improvement.

This is a very complex issue that will need much education on all sides.

Aleta

[kickingandscreaming]

White privilege means getting the benefit of the doubt. 

[Rerun]

Willow, you fail to follow the public media prejudgment through.  Hands Up Don't Shoot never happened.  It came out in court with black witnesses that he was trying to fight the cop for his gun and that is after robbing the convenience store and shoving the owner around.  Justified!   Maybe white privilege is treating the law with dignity and respect.

You fail to recognize cops shoot white guys too.  Cops shoot more Men then Women.  You don't see groups protesting Men's Lives Matter.

They are making this a big deal when it is on false premise. 

Freddie Grey.... I bet all the cops get off (3 were black cops)  Why? Because they were trying to arrest a bad ass and he was fighting back. 

 

[PrimeTimer]

*yawn* This "war on cops" is an old Leftist political tactic used to stir the pot, create chaos and disorder and finally, to create sympathy and gain votes. It excites a lot of people but impresses no one. Heck, even Hillary Clinton's idol Saul Alinsky used it. It was born from the anti-American radical activist crowd and used by political hacks. Look how Bernardine Dohrn and Bill Ayers used it for their movement with the "Weather Underground". They killed cops. And they're white. This tactic has been around a long long time, it's nothing new. It is like an old worn out tire. It's re-tread.  *yawn*

[Simon Dog]

Freddie Grey.... I bet all the cops get off (3 were black cops)  Why? Because they were trying to arrest a bad ass and he was fighting back.

Yeah, all that vigorous fighting bashing his head against the inside of the paddy wagon while he bounced around unsecured, and handcuffed.

[kickingandscreaming]

*yawn* This "war on cops" is an old Leftist political tactic used to stir the pot, create chaos and disorder and finally, to create sympathy and gain votes. It excites a lot of people but impresses no one. Heck, even Hillary Clinton's idol Saul Alinsky used it. It was born from the anti-American radical activist crowd and used by political hacks. Look how Bernardine Dohrn and Bill Ayers used it for their movement with the "Weather Underground". They killed cops. And they're white. This tactic has been around a long long time, it's nothing new. It is like an old worn out tire. It's re-tread.  *yawn*

I can't make head nor tail of all these very tired, uniniformed, irrelevant right wing talking points.  Talk about "yawn!"

[Rerun]

*yawn* This "war on cops" is an old Leftist political tactic used to stir the pot, create chaos and disorder and finally, to create sympathy and gain votes. It excites a lot of people but impresses no one. Heck, even Hillary Clinton's idol Saul Alinsky used it. It was born from the anti-American radical activist crowd and used by political hacks. Look how Bernardine Dohrn and Bill Ayers used it for their movement with the "Weather Underground". They killed cops. And they're white. This tactic has been around a long long time, it's nothing new. It is like an old worn out tire. It's re-tread.  *yawn*

This...

[Charlie B53]

Kansas City today, a Police Captain responded to a (?) domestic with a weapon IIRC.  Some 20 minutes into the call he was shot dead.  I've been out so don't/haven't heard the latest news.

It was pointed out KC had an Officer killed five months ago, shot.

[iolaire]

*yawn* This "war on cops" is an old Leftist political tactic used to stir the pot, create chaos and disorder and finally, to create sympathy and gain votes. It excites a lot of people but impresses no one. Heck, even Hillary Clinton's idol Saul Alinsky used it. It was born from the anti-American radical activist crowd and used by political hacks. Look how Bernardine Dohrn and Bill Ayers used it for their movement with the "Weather Underground". They killed cops. And they're white. This tactic has been around a long long time, it's nothing new. It is like an old worn out tire. It's re-tread.  *yawn*

Sort of how the right uses the menace of dark skinned people to rile up their base? 

[willowtreewren]

Willow, you fail to follow the public media prejudgment through.  Hands Up Don't Shoot never happened.  It came out in court with black witnesses that he was trying to fight the cop for his gun and that is after robbing the convenience store and shoving the owner around.  Justified!   Maybe white privilege is treating the law with dignity and respect.

You fail to recognize cops shoot white guys too.  Cops shoot more Men then Women.  You don't see groups protesting Men's Lives Matter.

They are making this a big deal when it is on false premise. 

Freddie Grey.... I bet all the cops get off (3 were black cops)  Why? Because they were trying to arrest a bad ass and he was fighting back.

Since I was talking about the general situation and you are talking about a specific, your argument doesn't hold up. Also, anecdotal evidence is not usually valid. You need to look at broad data. In an earlier post you stated that MORE whites than blacks are shot by police. While the raw numbers may give the impression that there is no bias, you have to understand that data. Blacks comprise a far smaller percentage (13.2%) of the population than whites. So, looking at the figure that 51% of people killed by the police are white, means that there is a huge skew (bias) toward black deaths at the hands of police. In other words, for there to be parity, only 13.2% of deaths by police should be blacks. Unfortunately the percentage is much, much higher than that.

Those against BLM conveniently and knowingly report data in a way to sucker susceptible mathematically challenged people into agreeing that black lives DON'T matter. 

Aleta

[Simon Dog]

Few seem to be able to reconcile two facts:

1. There is a greater chance of being shot; suspected of a crime; etc. when interacting with the police if you are black.  As I've said before, in the case of gun owners it is "I need to see your carry permit sir" vs. "On the ground now!!!".

2. Some, but not all, of the shootings are justified.   The one of the kid who had reportedly robbed a convenience store and resisted arrest and the Trayvon Martin case when he was bashing in the civilian shooter's skull on pavement come to mind.  The BLM people seem unable to differentiate between a black who is victimized because he is profiled and one who gets a subcutaneous intramuscular injection of lead because he is engaging in criminal activity.

. So, looking at the figure that 51% of people killed by the police are white, means that there is a huge skew (bias) toward black deaths at the hands of police. In other words, for there to be parity, only 13.2% of deaths by police should be blacks.

There are only two mathematical explanations for this:

1. Police are more inclined to shoot blacks.

2. Blacks are more inclined (on a per-capita basis) to do things that cause police to shoot them.

The actual truth may be a combination of the two, however, the only "allowed" conclusion to #2 is that no particular race is statistically more likely to commit crime than any other race.    An inability to look at all the facts from a cold statistical perspective makes rational analysis nearly impossible.





sp mod Cas

[Charlie B53]

The actual truth may be a combination of the two, however, the only "allowed" conclusion to #2 is that no particular race is statistically more likely to commit crime than any other race.    An inability to look at all the facts from a cold statistical perspective makes rational analysis nearly impossible.

sp mod Cas

It is indeed quite difficult to make any study of numbers un-biased as the simple selection of where the data is taken from can sometimes include bias.

The population % differs among not only small regions within a city but actually differs among the big cities.  And varies widely among the outlying communities.

I've seen other studies attempt to juggle the numbers adjusting to get 'per capita rates'.   No matter how you slice the pie, it isn't always perfectly the same.

To change perspective a bit, personal appearance.   The simple fact of NOT having a shirt tucked in.   Many people wear their T-shirt large, long, and hanging.   This to an Officer is cause for suspicion as it is possible that person may be attempting to hide a weapon, and the Officer is amped up, FEAR sets in, this contact can go wrong at the slightest thing.

Same guy, different day, T-shirt tucked in.   The Officer can clearly see there is no weapon tucked into his waistband.  He is much more relaxed.

Initial appearances can make a HUGE difference in perception.

[Rerun]

The hard truth is respect needs to be taught at home.  These black guys need to marry the first baby mamma and stick with her and raise the child in a good moral home.  Right now they have several baby mammas (their words not mine) and what is reaped is angry young men with no direction.  Then they point the finger at white privilege.

Too many white men are starting to do the same.  Moral decline will lead to future chaos.   

[Simon Dog]

Same guy, different day, T-shirt tucked in.   The Officer can clearly see there is no weapon tucked into his waistband.  He is much more relaxed.

This can bring an entire different set of problems to those who choose to legally carry a weapon.

[Charlie B53]

At the time  I CCW I lived in Seattle.  ALWAYS wore at least a light jacket.   Here in MO, that ain't happening.   But now I live out in the sticks, every one is on at least 3 acres, surrounded by a bunch of old retired people, most everyone is always at home except for errands.  Very ever will many neighbors be gone all at once.  Not even for the Fair.  Most every one are Vets and I don't of ANY home that doesn't have guns, both long, short, and shotguns.

Though we don't necessarily know each others names too many doors away we definitely know who drives what, AND what vehicles their visitors drive.   So we pretty much know on site when a strange vehicle is nearby and tend to look a bit closer.

[MooseMom]

Did any of you hear about the black therapist who ran out into the street to try to calm his adult autistic clieny who had had a meltdown and had run out into the road?  Someone called 911, and when he heard the police sirens, he laid on his back on the pavement with his arms up, but a cop shot him anyway.  I had not seen this story on tv because it seems the media is Tromp obsessed, so i heard it from my husband who heard it on the radio.  What words are left to explain away such a thins?