Brexit

[lainiepop]

Agree with Kristina. People shouldnt have been given a vote if it wasn't going to be followed through. If Brexit does not go ahead people will be angry and then vote completely differently at nect party elections. They only gave the people the vote in the first place because they didnt really think the majority would vote leave. What annoys me is had the result been the other way nobody would have complained. Always the same with elections too. Only one side of voters complain when it doesn't go their way! Other side accept defeat.

[kristina]

... It appears to be very sad that first of all the government appears to have given people the "choice" to vote about Brexit,
(after appearing pretty certain that the people would vote against Brexit) ...
... but when the people's vote came back as being positively for Brexit,
the government suddenly appeared to disagree with the people's choice of vote...
... What next ? ...

[Athena]

I agree with you Kristina about how atrocious the process has become. The people of Britain voted to Leave & all this deceptive dithering, toeing & froing now is unacceptable. I see this as a bigger worrying anti-democratic Leftwing movement that is sweeping the world at large. Unelected elites are the one who are trying to dictate what is right and what the 'correct outcome' should be in any public debate that is voted on by the people.

I do believe however that Brexit will be followed through with. It's just going to take a little longer than what most people imagined it would take.

[cassandra]

The referendum was only advisory. To have a binding referendum Britain needs a change in the law.
And the majority was only small wasn't it?

[KarenInWA]

This is an interesting read - http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11179774?

[MooseMom]

Just to clarify, and please tell me if I have misunderstood, it is "the government" that wants to proceed with Brexit and to enforce the will of the people.  It is the COURTS who have determined that it is PARLIAMENT who must be the entity to trigger Article 50.

THAT's the current question...whether it is the government or it is parliament that has the authority to trigger article 50.  Hearings are being heard right now as a result of the goverment's appeal of the Supreme Court's decision.

Whichever entity is determined to have that authority, you cannot say that these are "unelected elites".  Everyone's member of Parliament has been duly and democratically elected by their constituents unless the UK has a problem with massive voter fraud.

[MooseMom]

Another Brexit question for you all who live in the UK (or for anyone else who has an opinion).

If I understand correctly, once Article 50 is triggered and Brexit is underway, you will no longer have the right to travel freely and live on the Continent.  So, I guess you'll have to get visas and show passports if you want to holiday in Spain.

A few MEPs are putting forth the idea of granting UK nationals "associate EU membership" which would let you retain the right to travel freely to the Continent.

So, my question is, does this matter to you?  Do you like the idea of being an associate EU peep?  Personally, I don't think the rest of the MEPs are going to let you all do this, but you never know.

I never had UK citizenship and so always travelled on my US passport.  This was a real pain whenever we went on holiday.  Once we went to Greece, and I was the only one on board the chartered flight that was not a UK/EU citizen, so when I deplaned, I was escorted into this hot tin shack where their immigration bods looked up my name in a great big book.  Not a computer in sight.  Since my name wasn't in the book, I was allowed in.  And whenever we returned to the UK via the Channel Tunnel, we always had to go through the "NON UK/EU line"  which wasn't so bad since it was usually the shortest.

Anyway, thoughts?

[Simon Dog]

#1: The EU is going to need to punish Britian for leaving.   Referendums have consequences.

#2: It would be arrogant of the Brits to expect an arrangement where there people could travel freely but other EU members could not travel freely to Britain - and the entire point of the vote was to clamp down on free travel and immigration to England by (unspoken agenda) Muslims from other EU countries.   If they keep travel open, they will have none of the advantages of EU membership that they are giving up, and not get the border tightening the people voted for.

[cassandra]

O MMum I hadn't even thought about the different ques we would have to stand in. Me in the long EU line, Hubby in the short British only line.

It's a long time before Article 50 will be triggered.
An even longer two years of negotiations.
Lots of changes in governments of 27  countries in the EU
Of course no election in the UK (planned) even though the government has changed

In the meantime I'm happy with the exchange rate increasing my Dutch pension significantly.
The uncertainty about the situation raises my BP, which is good cos it's way too low.
I've booked our next holiday in Portugal expecting to be welcomed as they will need tourist money.

I don't think the EU is going to punish Britain as there's too much to loose on both sides. There's too much 'bagage' I suppose.
There are 3.3 million EU citizens living in Britain.
There are 2.1 million Britains living in the EU. £1.4 billion is transferred in British state pensions to other EU countries.(national statistics)

In the time before the EU, I could travel anywhere in Europe with a Dutch passport.
In that same time Hubby could travel anywhere (maybe not Zimbabwe) with a British passport.
I would think the traveling situation would reverse to that.

What I think about that?

430.000 votes (difference between pro vs con) caused all this uncertainty, I suppose They knew what they were doing   

[kristina]

Today I heard in the radio-news that Parliament is discussing how to inform people
how life could/would change (for the worst?)  if and when Brexit would go ahead...
... and that people would then possibly think twice and perhaps demand another referendum ...
... Hearing this has made me feel rather startled because the outcome of the Brexit-referendum
seems to be developing into a saga and it seems to be in very bad taste....

[cassandra]

IDK I think that it might have been a good idea for both Cameron and Farage/Johnson to think about providing info befóre the referendum.

[MooseMom]

IDK I think that it might have been a good idea for both Cameron and Farage/Johnson to think about providing info befóre the referendum.

So, do you not think that the electorate was adequately informed about what Brexit would mean?  Do you think that anyone really fully understood what Brexit would mean?  Do you think that UK voters ever realized that the terms and conditions of Brexit would not be completely in the hands of the UK government?

Another question:

What do you all think will become of Northern Ireland and Scotland?  Do you think Scotland could/should hold another referendum regarding remaining within the UK?

And do you all think that the border between NI and the Republic will become a "hard" border?

[cassandra]

Hi Moosemum I don't think the public was adequately informed at all. I don't think anybody was. We (the public) didn't even know what we were not informed about.

I think that a lot of the voters voted against austerity (which in the media is mainly blamed on the EU), against authority (which is of course also caused by the EU in the media) And against immigrants coming in by the millions (according to the media caused by being a member of the EU)

I really don't know what to think of the borders. When Scotland had it's referendum it wasn't even sure if they could stay within the EU anyway.

[Simon Dog]

In the time before the EU, I could travel anywhere in Europe with a Dutch passport.

It's about a lot more than the freedom to travel.   I had no trouble entering Germany when I had a long stopover on a flight to Bangalore - my US passport was enough.

A bigger deal is that, as I understand it, EU membership conveys the right to set up long term resident in any other EU country as well as accept employment in any EU country - tho things that "open travel" arrangements like the one the US has with many first world countries do not convey.

[cassandra]

In the time before the EU, I could travel anywhere in Europe with a Dutch passport.

It's about a lot more than the freedom to travel.   

Of course it is, and that's why the Brexit negotiations are going to be interesting.
Apart from leaving the EU, Is the UK also out of the European Economic Area? If not, than nothing would change concerning that.

"There is a presumption in international law that when treaty rights have been executed, those rights are unaffected by withdrawal from the treaty (House of Commons, 2013). This suggests that individuals and businesses that have taken advantage of the Single Market1 to move either from the UK to the rest of the EU or in the opposite direction would probably be allowed to stay. But this outcome is not certain and would certainly be a subject addressed by any withdrawal agreement." According to the report Britain after Brexit from The London School of Economics and Political Science.

[MooseMom]

Should Scotland have a second referendum now that it is a post-Brexit world?

[cassandra]

I agree with Nicola Sturgeon (Smp) to hold a referendum after the 'negotiations' and ratifications and the elections in Germany and France have been. Otherwise it would be like a Brexit referendum about something no one has actually any info or facts

[MooseMom]

I agree with Nicola Sturgeon (Smp) to hold a referendum after the 'negotiations' and ratifications and the elections in Germany and France have been. Otherwise it would be like a Brexit referendum about something no one has actually any info or facts

I've been hearing the idea being floated about for there to be a vote for/against Brexit after the actual negotiations have been concluded which would be, I am assuming, in several years' time.  This way, the British electorate could vote on actual policies rather than on an idea or concept.  What do you think about this?  (I watch several British political talk shows online, like "Question Time".)

[cassandra]

I would really sincerely hope so. What do you think?

[MooseMom]

I would really sincerely hope so. What do you think?

If I were a British citizen, I would want the opportunity to review the results of the final Brexit negotiations and then vote on them.  It's not like a general election where in a finite period of time you can vote on a new slate of contenders.  Brexit is sorta forever.