Mr. Donald Trump ?

[kickingandscreaming]

I suspect if a Republican exhibited a similar level of sleaze you would not be so quick to defend that person.

I'm positive that they do.  It's just that their very existence doesn't trigger an investigation.

If, in fact, the "sleaze" is proven to be real, it wouldn't matter to me what side of the aisle they came from.  I would be repulsed by it in either case.

[Simon Dog]

I suspect if a Republican exhibited a similar level of sleaze you would not be so quick to defend that person.

I'm positive that they do.  It's just that their very existence doesn't trigger an investigation.

If, in fact, the "sleaze" is proven to be real, it wouldn't matter to me what side of the aisle they came from.  I would be repulsed by it in either case.

I believe you.

If there were a sleazy Democrat who represented your ideals and a clean Republican who had no sleaze factor, but was opposed to your ideals, who would get your vote?

[kickingandscreaming]

If there were a sleazy Democrat who represented your ideals and a clean Republican who had no sleaze factor, but was opposed to your ideals, who would get your vote?

First of all, I don't even know what I will be doing in this election.  I need to think hard.  Second of all, as so many politicians are quick to say, I don't deal in hypotheticals (however that is spelled.).  First challenge is to find a "clean" Republican.  I dare you.  Frankly though, I can't imagine voting for a Republican.  Their values are way to whacked out for me.  I would probably retreat to my disenfranchised corner and weep.

[cassandra]

Men I feel for you poor Americans. Talking about choosing between a rock and a hard place

   

[SutureSelf]

It is true that Hillary Clinton lied about being under fire when she deplaned somewhere in Europe some years ago.  And it is true that she was not telling the truth when she told the public that none of her emails contained classified information, although it is also true that the information those emails contained were only later labeled as "classified".

But other than those two incidents, I don't know what else she has said that has been proven to be a lie, nor what she has done that has been proven to be illegal.

It may look bad from Bernie's point of view that she was paid a lot of money for speeches, but this was not illegal nor was it unusual for for Secretaries of State to give speeches.  She, like many speakers, charge a fee, and if people do not want to pay this fee, then they can look elsewhere for a speaker.  Her name recognition makes her a valuable choice.

So when people call her "crooked", what exactly are they referring to?  She and her staff have been under investigation for well over a year by Republicans in Congress and by the FBI for Benghazi and emails, but no one has found any evidence of her ever lying under oath and thus worthy of punishment. 

If anyone is a liar, it is Donald Trump.  He has no intention of building a wall, deporting illegal immigrants, pulling out of NATO, saving the middle class or addressing income inequality.  He has no intention of doing anything, which is why his son approached John Kasich and told him that he could, in effect, be president because actually governing isn't really Trump's thing.  Trump is going to get bored really quickly if he becomes president because being president requires doing things that are frankly really, really dull. 

And by the way, he did not write "The Art of the Deal".  He has lied about that.

I honestly have not once heard what Donald Trump wants to do during his presidency AND HOW HE WILL FUND THOSE PLANS OR IMPLEMENT THOSE PLANS.  Can one single person on this board give me one single example of one single plan that he has fully thought through?

Here are a few other proven Hillary lies:

she said she was named for Sir Edmund Hillary, the conqueror of Mount Everest — even though she was already 6 years old when he made his famous ascent.

She  blamed a "disgusting" internet video for the Benghazi attacks in her conversations with family members of those killed as well as the nation, despite having told a foreign leader two days earlier that the video played no role and having emailed daughter Chelsea that a terrorist group had carried out the attack.

Saying she and Bill were "dead broke" when leaving the White House.

And, you are wrong about the classified emails at the time she was receiving them.  FBI director Comey stated 7 email chains concern matters that were classified at the Top Secret/Special Access Program at that time, not down the road as you assert.

[MooseMom]

Sutureself, or whoever you are these days, who cares what Hillary said about her name?

As for Benghazi, there was a CIA facility nearby, so what families were told was probably dictated by security concerns from them.  The republicans grilled her for eleven circus act filled hours and found nothing.  But I grant you that the initial info given to the public was chaotic, which is what happens when departments get territorial and don't cooperate with each other to share info.

I don't care what she said about her finances upon leaving the White House!  So bloody what?

Yes, Comey did say seven emails did turn out to be classified, and he rightly chastised everyone involved.  But he found no reason to recommend prosecution.  But that fact seems to satisfy no one who has already bought into the idea invoked by a Trump operative that she should be put in front of a wall and shot and killed as a traitor.  Thankfully, that Trump guy is now a person of interest to the FBI.

Can you answer my queries about Trump's plans and how he will pay for tax cuts for his mates in big business AND build that beautiful wall?  Why was the convention all about Hillary and not about Trump?

What do you think about what his ghostwriter has said about him?





sp mod cas

[Simon Dog]

First of all, I don't even know what I will be doing in this election.  I need to think hard.

No thinking required.

MA always gives its electoral votes to the Democrat so your vote does not matter.

If it were an across the board popular vote, your vote would count - but that is not the case.





sp mod Cas

[cattlekid]

Yeah, living in IL I realize the same thing.  I still vote as a matter of personal protest (and I will be writing in a candidate this year for president) but I know that IL will always and forever be a Democratic state.  There just isn't enough population outside of Cook County to disable the Democratic machine.

First of all, I don't even know what I will be doing in this election.  I need to think hard.

No thinking required.

MA always gives its electoral votes to the Democrat so your vote does not matter.

It it were an across the board popular vote, your vote would count - but that is not the case.

[MooseMom]

Well, in IL there is Mark Kirk and Bruce Rauner, both Republicans.

As for states being solidly one color, that pretty much describes the entire Confederate South.

Of course, we could all push for a Constitutional Amendment that abolishes the Electoral College.

[Rerun]

 Here are a few other proven Hillary lies:

she said she was named for Sir Edmund Hillary, the conqueror of Mount Everest — even though she was already 6 years old when he made his famous ascent.

She  blamed a "disgusting" internet video for the Benghazi attacks in her conversations with family members of those killed as well as the nation, despite having told a foreign leader two days earlier that the video played no role and having emailed daughter Chelsea that a terrorist group had carried out the attack.

Saying she and Bill were "dead broke" when leaving the White House.

And, you are wrong about the classified emails at the time she was receiving them.  FBI director Comey stated 7 email chains concern matters that were classified at the Top Secret/Special Access Program at that time, not down the road as you assert.

THIS!!!   

Who did she lie to face to face about Benghazi?  The families of the guys who were killed.  Told them it was the video's fault.  On 9/11/12....

And what did Hilary have to say "What does it matter at this point anyway"....  That would crush a mother's heart.





sp mod Cas

[Simon Dog]

Well, in IL there is Mark Kirk and Bruce Rauner, both Republicans.

My wife keeps reminding me of the time Bruce Rauner drank out of her shoe many years ago.   I told her she should have boated that bass instead of me.

[SutureSelf]

Sutureself, or whoever you are these days, who cares what Hillary said about her name?

As for Benghazi, there was a CIA facility nearby, so what families were told was probably dictated by security concerns from them.  The republicans grilled her for eleven circus act filled hours and found nothing.  But I grant you that the initial info given to the public was chaotic, which is what happens when departments get territorial and don't cooperate with each other to share info.

I don't care what she said about her finances upon leaving the White House!  So bloody what?

Yes, Comey did say seven emails did turn out to be classified, and he rightly chastised everyone involved.  But he found no reason to recommend prosecution.  But that fact seems to satisfy no one who has already bought into the idea invoked by a Trump operative that she should be put in front of a wall and shot and killed as a traitor.  Thankfully, that Trump guy is now a person of interest to the FBI.

Can you answer my queries about Trump's plans and how he will pay for tax cuts for his mates in big business AND build that beautiful wall?  Why was the convention all about Hillary and not about Trump?

What do you think about what his ghostwriter has said about him?





sp mod cas

Who cares?  These examples, and there are more, say much about her character - or lack thereof.

I too am waiting for the details on how Trump expects to fund his agenda.  Considering 45% of Americans pay NO federal taxes already (but can still get money back through the redistribution EIC Program) lowering the tax rate on businesses and the middle class is a good start. 

However, unless Trump does something totally egregious (he's not a sexist or racist - if so, he could never have succeeded in all his businesses as he has), I will vote for him.  I'm a moderate conservative and vote for the party of less government.  No matter how bad he might be for four years, Trump will cause less damage than Clinton.  She would set the county back at least 4 generations if able to pack the federal courts and supreme court with leftist, progressive activist judges alone. 

And it's not up to government to provide free college to all.  Our educational system has already been dumbed down enough because of Hope scholarships - of which 40% of recipients have to take remedial English and math courses their freshman year in college.  Plus, a mandated $15 minimum wage will only lead to fewer people employed with mainly teenagers looking for part time summer or after school jobs feeling the brunt of it.  Besides, only 4.3% of workers just make minimum wage as it is.  Let the free enterprise market place determine salaries.

I can go on, but since you and the vast majority of others who have posted on this thread are progressive lefties who believe that government exists to solve all problems and will vote for dems no matter what, it would be pointless.

[Simon Dog]

And it's not up to government to provide free college to all.  Our educational system has already been dumbed down enough because of Hope scholarships - of which 40% of recipients have to take remedial English and math courses their freshman year in college.  Plus, a mandated $15 minimum wage will only lead to fewer people employed with mainly teenagers looking for part time summer or after school jobs feeling the brunt of it.  Besides, only 4.3% of workers just make minimum wage as it is.  Let the free enterprise market place determine salaries.

Government student loans have cause the spiraling of college tuition and fees.  Colleges not longer think "are we pricing ourselves out of the market" but "education is a bargain at ANY price, and the government will loan our students as much as we want to charge".   When the new building ofr fancy dorm goes up, nobody asks "how will this effect affordability".

What is seriously lacking is meaningful high school counseling as to the prospect for employment with various degrees, and the consequences of taking out a massive loan that is exempt from all bankruptcy protections and as hard to eradicate as pancreatic cancer.

[Rerun]

There are no more low skill / high paying jobs anymore.  We use to have Kaiser Aluminium here but no more.  All the industry jobs are gone overseas.  So, the answer is to get the loans and get educated in something  (Medical).  I hope Trump can bring the jobs and industry back to the U.S.A.

[Angiepkd]

I am reading these posts with a tremendous amount of fear for our country and its future.  I am not a huge Clinton fan, but would vote for her a thousand times over before I gave my support to Donald Trump.  The fact that we are still dwelling on her Benghazi "at this point, what does it matter" comment, speaks volumes to me.  Listen to the entire interview.  She says that, after being asked a ridiculous question about whether or not the attackers stemmed from a protest or set out to harm Americans. Her answer isn't in reference to the American lives lost, but where the terrorists came from who killed them.  Come on, people.  The Internet is available to nearly all Americans (and obviously to people on this forum).  Do your homework. Don't repeat things you hear on FOX news as facts.  Research Donald Trump's casino deals in Atlantic City, where he helped ruin the so-called working class people he loves so much.  Listen to his answers about serious issues that he clearly has no clue about.  Research his comments about women and minorities.  He displays all the qualities of a sociopath.  And "making America great again" means taking us back 30 years. America is great now!  I watched the RNC and didn't know whether to laugh or cry.  We are allowing ourselves to be duped by a salesman who makes up his own statistics and uses fear to bring out the worst traits in every person who supports him.  And don't even get me started on Mike Pence.  Please, please, do some research before casting your vote.  It really isn't a race between Democrats and Republicans this election year.  It is a race between sanity and bat s%#t crazy.  Just my opinion, of course. 

[Simon Dog]

It is a race between sanity and bat s%#t crazy.  Just my opinion, of course.

I agree.  I am casting my vote against increased government control of my life and redistribution of my income and assets.

But, I live in MA where the outcome is such a foregone conclusion that neither candidate will spend any money trying to lure voters in this state.

[kickingandscreaming]

Donald Trump is a total fabrication.  He is a self-built myth.  The Wizard of Oz--nothing but a little man who happens to be a sociopath with a major Narcissistic Personality Disorder (certifiable) hiding behind a mythological brand.  Plus he is an attention-deficit disordered ignorant man with no moral compass.  He's a total phony.  Didn't even write The Art of the Deal that made him famous and built the mythology that is Donald Trump.  Read the account by the man who actually wrote the book and, with huge regrets, created the mythology that you Trump rubes now grasp on to as your Savior. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all

Did you know that DT offered the Vice presidency to both Kasich and now Pense with the caveat that they would be serving as the actual president and doing all the "governing" while DT simply waves the ra ra flag to invoke hatred and divisiveness to Make America Hate Again?

[Angiepkd]

  kickingandscreaming.  The part I am completely amazed by, is that most people don't see it.  I hate to make the comparison, but Hitler and Mussolini come to mind. Good people blindly following a crazy person who says what they want to hear.  Closing borders, building a wall, lowering taxes, improving infrastructure, deportations, increased military, support for our veterans, ending the affordable care act...the list goes on and on.  His tax cuts will benefit his rich buddies (including himself and his kids) to the tune of 1.2 million dollars EACH.  The total amount will be staggering.  While a few, and very few, of these ideas are good ones, at no point is there a plan for where this money is going to come from.  We need to pull together as Americans, and stop letting this man divide us with fear mongering, bigotry and racism.  We are not perfect.  There are changes that need to be made.  But only by working together can we accomplish anything.  And that needs to start now.  No more partisan political BS.  Pay attention people.  We are headed down a very dangerous road.

[MooseMom]

Sutureself, I'm not going to discuss Hillary Clinton's "character" when someone like Donald Trump has so many personality flaws that it boggles the mind.  Neither candidate is perfect, but Trump is just...well, words fail me.

I certainly don't think government is there to fix all problems, but again, that is beside the point because Trump is not remotely interested in government.  What the role of government actually is, which has already been debated for centuries in this country, will most certainly not be defined by Trump. 

Trump is NOT for "less government".  Much much much MORE "government" will be required should he be elected and decides to build a wall between us and Mexico, stop Muslims from entering the country, destroy ISIS single-handedly, and deport all of the illegal immigrants who are currently living here.  And how will all of these goals be paid for, especially if there are further tax cuts?  How can anyone who describes him/herself as a "moderate conservative" even entertain a vote for Trump, who is neither "moderate" nor "conservative"? 

I don't know what to think about "free college" when there are universities that pay millions of dollars to football coaches.  Sports in universities, in my opinion, is a scam.

Why can we not have higher taxes for the very rich people?  We would not have to fund welfare payments for Walmart employees if Walmart's owners and the company as a whole paid the taxes they should be paying.  Income inequality, and the warped tax system that is a consequence of that, is a very real problem.  Donald Trump is not interested in policies that would address this.. 

To throw up your hands and say that it is pointless to converse with "progressive lefties" is intellectually lazy.  Tell me why I should vote for Trump.  Don't tell me why I shouldn't vote for Clinton; I've heard all of that.  But I challenge anyone and everyone to convince me how and why Donald Trump is the best person to lead this nation.  I actually believe that he has a good chance of winning, and that scares me.  So comfort me.  Reassure me.  Tell me what he will do for me.  Tell me what he will do for you.  Tell me what he will do for our overseas allies.  Tell me what he will do for the world.  Convince me that he will be thoughtful and competent and not just hand the helm over to his crew while he goes out and sells more steaks.

[MooseMom]

;

Who did she lie to face to face about Benghazi?  The families of the guys who were killed.  Told them it was the video's fault.  On 9/11/12....

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/feb/09/what-did-hillary-clinton-tell-families-people-who-/

[Simon Dog]

Sutureself, I'm not going to discuss Hillary Clinton's "character" when someone like Donald Trump has so many personality flaws that it boggles the mind.  Neither candidate is perfect, but Trump is just...well, words fail me.

Both sides will have no problem finding character faults in the other side's candidate - they both carry a lot of baggage.

The tendency is to forgive your side's candidates (as demonstrated by comments like "not going to discuss Clinton's character) and excoriate the opposition candidate.

[MooseMom]

Simon Dog, I'm not going to discuss Clinton's character because she has been under the microscope for decades, and as I do not know her personally, I have nothing to add to the countless words already written about this very subject.  You incorrectly assume that I have "forgiven" her.  I will continue to "excoriate" the opposition candidate, however, until you or anyone else can tell me why I should support Mr. Trump.  Perhaps you can convince me?

[Rerun]

;

Who did she lie to face to face about Benghazi?  The families of the guys who were killed.  Told them it was the video's fault.  On 9/11/12....

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/feb/09/what-did-hillary-clinton-tell-families-people-who-/

Watch this MM.  Of course just because it is on Fox News you will say the Mother of Sean Smith is lying:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/10/23/families-benghazi-victims-say-clinton-dishonest.html

[Simon Dog]

Perhaps you can convince me?

I doubt I can, because we probably have very different views of both the relationship of government to the individual, and the role of government.

It doesn't necessarily mean one of us is right; just that we have different views on things like immigration; income redistribution; tax policy and gun control.  We probably have very similar views on reproductive freedom and gay/lesbian/intersex rights.  Just guessing though.

[MooseMom]

Perhaps you can convince me?

I doubt I can, because we probably have very different views of both the relationship of government to the individual, and the role of government.

It doesn't necessarily mean one of us is right; just that we have different views on things like immigration; income redistribution; tax policy and gun control.  We probably have very similar views on reproductive freedom and gay/lesbian/intersex rights.  Just guessing though.

I would like to hear your views on these topic and how you feel that Donald Trump will craft policy.  It doesn't matter to me if we have different views.  I don't need to hear people agree with me as my own views are still somewhat under construction, so I am certainly open to others' ideas.  I don't need to be right.  I'd rather be informed!