Target,AMERICA

[bigshot99]

Bigsky is so correct in what he is stating about this Iraq War,,,AMERICA is doing extremely  well in this war, FACT.....  the IRAQ extremist CAN'T DEFEAT AMERICAN,,,,,FACT...OUR  ENEMY WILL NOT FACE US HEAD ,,they have use children in a car so they could go pass a check point,then parking the car the adults  RUN AWAY and the car blows up with the kids in the back seat.
The only way America can be defeated in this war,,,,now pay close attention to this...
Will be by the UNDERMINING OF PRESIDENT BUSH,,BY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY...
THAT IS GOING ON " NOW"..
FACT.. IF THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA DON'T BACK PRESIDENT BUSH IN THIS WAR AND STAND UP AND SUPPORT THIS WAR THEN AMERICA WILL FACE MORE ATTACKS.
NOW George will say,,why will America face more attacks if we dint support bush, and the war.
I will tell you why???
because our enemy will see that with a little time the American people will grow war-weary after a few years at war,then pull out.
Now if the DEMOCRATIC PARTY GETS THERE WAY IN THE UNDERMINING OF OUR PRESIDENT,, AND THIS WAR, AND WE DO PULL OUT ,,THAT MEANS THE NEXT TIME AMERICA IS AT WAR ,AND NEEDS THE BACKING  OF AN ALLIANCE then guess what people,it will not be there because America will have the reputation of ,,CUT AND RUN,,,
bill Clinton was Doing nothing so AMERICA WAS  ATTACKED ,,AND ATTACKED,, AND ATTACKED.
BUT NOW WE HAVE A PRESIDENT THAT STANDS UP TO KICK ASS AFTER ,9/11,,,
THANK YOU MR BUSH FOR DEFENDING AMERICA.. FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT....
WITH PERSIDENT BUSH, AMERICA IS NOT A PAPER TIGER


The only reason

[Wattle]

Anyone remember the children's game "King of the Mountain?

yep, lots of fun to play during the winter on the huge mounds snowplows made in the apartment parking lot.

Right!  And whoever was on top of the hill had to be knocked off - maybe we have so many wars because we never grew up!

I vote for women to be in power!   

[George Jung]

NOW George will say,,why will America face more attacks if we dint support bush, and the war.

The only thing George is going to say about that statement right now is..................."I have never and will never suggest that we should not support the war against terrorism."  I think you may be confused about my position.  I am all for a war on terror.  In fact, I am so much in favor of a war on terror I want the whole world to jump into the fight.  Thats how much ASS I want to kick.  I take what you said as a great insult and I hope it was meant to be just that and you don't possibly believe that I don't want to put a stop to attacks on the United States of America or any other country for that matter.  With the utmost sincerity - George

[bigshot99]

,,sorry George,i stand corrected, I dint know why in the devil i said ,George ,i meant bill,as in bill Clinton.but that was my fault. I would be upset about that statement to.

[George Jung]

It's all good brother.  Thank you.
I don't really see how Bill Clinton fits into the statement but I guess it doesn't matter.

[jbeany]

I've been following these political debates, although I haven't joined in.  I think I'm not politically educated enough to give an informed, reasoned opinion.  I do, however, know someone with the education and personal experience to have formed a very valid opinion, and I thought I would quote him here.  This is from the Baghdad Update that my brother-in-law emails from his post as a med tech in Baghdad.

"With all of the media hype about pulling troops out and ending this war, allow me to tell you some inside information from those who are IN this war.  It's a topic we speak of frequently and the worst part of ANY war is being away from home and those we love, and of course the danger of being in a country where your death would be praised by many...but not praised by all...
Of those I speak to, and believe me I speak to many, the large majority of Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors and Marines feel that we are making a difference here.  We are doing good.  From those who are out knocking on doors to those who are on bases to those who fly over daily, they see changes.  I don't believe one person said that this would be a clear and fast victory.  I, for one, did not vote for our current President but am serving under his orders.  With that, I was not excited to come over and was upset for having to leave my family.  However, since being able to see what good we are doing first hand and being able to see the joy in the children's eyes after getting a pack of skittles, a pair of shoes, some pants, shirts, soaps...this IS INDEED the right place for the US to deploy its military. 
To pull out now would be catastrophic.  I say that only looking back in history as we did with Afghanistan.  We pulled out after saying we would help (post war with Russia) and we left them hanging.  We, essentially, helped to create Bin Laden.  No big deal right???
By helping to create stability in so many parts of this city where there was none is a huge step.  Those fighting us are truly thugs like you'd see in any major city...but they have been allowed to carry more deadly weapons for decades.  They have grown accustom to having their way for years and refuse to give that up to some occupying force.  Therefor, if they create and portray us as evil, they can declare us infidels and use religion to fight and gain support. 
The problem is, we've created so many enemies in the past by promising something and not delivering that by leaving now or anytime soon, would create not just a resentment by a city, but by a country."

[George Jung]

jbeany - I am glad to hear that your brother-in-law and the men/women he speaks with are still in good spirits.  It is ultimately their strength that keeps our military togeather. 

Can you imagine the condotion we would be in if they did not believe in what they were sent half way around the world to do?  There are reports coming in more and more often about the physical and mental conditions of our brave men and women that are hard to argue about. 

I don't believe that pulling our troops necessarily means drooping the cause.  I firmly believe that a new approach to the mission is a step in the right direction.  Heck, it may take years of fine tuning tactics and st rageties in order just to find effective methods of attack on terrorism.  Does anybody remember why Bush insisted we invade Iraq in the first place?  It was his "certainty" of weapons of mass destruction and the thought that the U.S. and the world was in immanent danger, leaving an invasion as the only option.  You want to talk about propaganda?  Talk about the Bush Administration after the 9/11 attacks.  Did something need to be done......yea, of course it did......are we going about it the best way possible....I don't think so.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/07/guard.deployment.ap/index.html

As the body count increases in Iraq, some governors have begun to voice concerns about the military's heavy use of National Guard troops.

Oklahoma Gov. Brad Henry said the Pentagon is, in effect, reinstating the draft on the backs of National Guard units. Arkansas Gov. Mike Beebe said redeploying National Guard troops from his state would be "stretching our citizen soldiers thin." North Carolina Gov. Mike Easley said he's worried about morale and readiness.


Anybody that says our troops are better trained than ever or there is no need to worry about their condition............how do you explain this report?  Aren't we as American citizens responsible for these men and women, the protectors of our freedom?

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/03/pdf/readiness_report.pdf



WASHINGTON - Coming on the heels of a controversial “surge” of 21,000 U.S. troops that has stretched the Army thin, the Defense Department is preparing to send an additional 12,000 National Guard combat forces to Iraq and Afghanistan, defense officials told NBC News on Thursday.

The troops will come from four Guard combat brigades in different states, the officials told NBC News’ chief Pentagon correspondent, Jim Miklaszewski. They said papers ordering the deployment, which would run for one year beginning in early 2008, were awaiting Defense Secretary Robert Gates’ signature.

The deployment is sure to ignite a firestorm on Capitol Hill, where Democrats in Congress are maneuvering to scale back the U.S. commitment in Iraq. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., is pushing a proposal to end most spending on the war in 2008, limiting it to targeted operations against al-Qaida, training for Iraqi troops and protection for U.S. forces.

Story continues below ↓
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
advertisement

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“I think this was all concealed until we got through the election,” said retired Army Gen. Barry McCaffrey, a military analyst for NBC News. “There’s no way to sustain the current rate of deployments without calling up probably nine National Guard brigades in the coming year for involuntary second tours.”

Gates did not mention the Guard deployment in a news conference Thursday at the Pentagon. Earlier this year, he revised Pentagon regulations to authorize more frequent Guard deployments to take some of the burden off the Army.

Surge timetable could be extended
Gates indicated Thursday that defense planners expected the U.S. military commitment to last well beyond the timetable of early next year that was put forth in the Pentagon’s arguments to send more than 20,000 regular Army troops to help quiet sectarian violence. That so-called surge of troops created intense opposition among Democrats and some Republicans in Congress early in the year.

“The truth is, I think people don’t know right now how long this will last,” he said. “The thinking of those involved in the process was that it would be a period of months, not a period of years or a year and a half or something like that."


  Click for related coverage
4 U.K., 5 U.S. troops killed in Iraq
Daily Nightly: Encountering IEDs, running raids with the 3rd ID
Troops sent back to Iraq after short break
 


In a radio interview Wednesday, Gates warned that limiting the administration could lead to “ethnic cleansing.”

“What we do know is if Baghdad is in flames and the whole city is engulfed in violence, the prospects for a political solution are almost non-existent,” he said in an interview with syndicated radio host Laura Ingraham.

Army under heavy pressure
The grinding pace of the war is clearly wearing down the Army.

 NBC VIDEO

 • U.S. helicopter downed
April 5: The U.S. military helicopter came under fire near a Sunni stronghold. NBC’s Tom Aspell reports.
MSNBC
 
 

Three Army combat brigades have just been ordered back into Iraq less than a year after they left, and two brigades that were headed for Iraq were unable to take their customary four weeks of desert training at Fort Irwin, Calif.

Defense officials said the quick turnaround could hurt overall readiness by leaving those troops unprepared for other missions.

“When you only have one year or less between deployments, instead of the two that you would like to have, you then do not train to what we call full spectrum,” said Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17971410/

[George Jung]

I've been following these political debates, although I haven't joined in.  I think I'm not politically educated enough to give an informed, reasoned opinion. 

It is our right and our duty to all of America  and what we stand for, to voice our opinion.  I am not heavy into politics either and I think that is also a reason many people use when it comes voting time and they choose not to participate.  However, regardless of the information you have you can still speak out about it.  No one ever said you can't change your position.  I happen to disagree with most of what I see and hear about our current situation in Iraq and I believe more Americans need to speak out.  Our future depends on it.  Thank you for showing interest in our little debate here at IHD, I have become a little more informed as a result and I expect you have been also.

[bigshot99]

Back 2 years ago bill Clinton was talking about Bush ,and no basis to attack Iraq. MR bill Clinton is contradicting his previous statements  and his comments represented a marked shift from the position he took as president .Clinton states,we have to defend our future from these predators of the 21st century.Clinton talking about Iraq states that they will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear,chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. bill Clinton also states that there is no more clear example of this threat than saddam Hussein's Iraq. his regime threatens the safety of his people, and the stability of his region and the security of all the rest of us.  this was in a speech in  Feb,1998 Clinton also talked about Iraq and there WMD.  President  Bush did not just think this up on his own about Iraq and the WMD he got some bad information and advice on WMD and is defending America and doing a good job at it. now the news media trays to make this war look bad when in fact the U. S. military  is doing very well,
lets look at this, in 4 years of combat the K. I. A. is very good. you have to look at past wars and there K. I. A.
this is not Vietnam like i have heard some people say. just look at the K. I. A. DURING THAT WAR.
I to have some good Buddy's in Iraq and they to say that the troop moral is verry good and that they are making head way
this worse thing that could be done is to let the politics tell the Generals how to fight this war and when its time to pull out.
the democratic party will stop at nothing to destroy Bush . the cost of this will be Americas safety.

[George Jung]

now the news media trays to make this war look bad when in fact the U. S. military is doing very well,
lets look at this, in 4 years of combat the K. I. A. is very good. you have to look at past wars and there K. I. A.
this is not Vietnam like i have heard some people say.

What other FACTS do you have to support the condition of the military?  K.I.A. by itself is nothing.

[bigshot99]

Just three facts,now that not much but it Carry's the words of a lot of troops not all but a lot that my son is with.
fact one. my son ,he is also my buddy,
two and three,of his buddy's he was in ROTC with in school that are in Iraq
They are buddy's also of this family who came to my house  to visit me while
 on leave form Iraq 3 months ago to let me know they are ok and that my son was ok ,my son was not able to take leave because it was delayed.I have talked with my son and he tells me there attitude and moral is good ,and like the job that are doing.
K.I.A. is something to them ,and a lot of people AND ME.

[George Jung]

Back 2 years ago bill Clinton was talking about Bush ,and no basis to attack Iraq. MR bill Clinton is contradicting his previous statements  and his comments represented a marked shift from the position he took as president .Clinton states,we have to defend our future from these predators of the 21st century.Clinton talking about Iraq states that they will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear,chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. bill Clinton also states that there is no more clear example of this threat than saddam Hussein's Iraq. his regime threatens the safety of his people, and the stability of his region and the security of all the rest of us.

You are talking about a former president backpedaling.  Will Bush not do the same when his term is up?  Hindsight is always 20/20, people are allowed to change their position (maybe they find it easier to admit their mistakes after their term, maybe they think they are better off sticking to their guns.  so to speak), in fact an ever changing position I think would be good.

Even the Democrats that sit in office as we speak know that we have to defend our future and nobody is suggesting to "allow them" to build weapons.

News Flash - Saddam is done.

this was in a speech in Feb,1998 Clinton also talked about Iraq and there WMD. President Bush did not just think this up on his own about Iraq and the WMD he got some bad information and advice on WMD and is defending America and doing a good job at it.

So it's not President Bush's fault huh?  It's Mr. Clinton's fault and  Mr. Bush just got bad information and advice on Weapons of Mass Destruction.  Don't you think if you were going to be held accountable for your actions by ALL OF AMERICA, you had better make damn sure that you make decisions you will stand by.  Maybe that's the beep beeps problem.

[BigSky]

You are talking about a former president backpedaling.  Will Bush not do the same when his term is up?  Hindsight is always 20/20, people are allowed to change their position (maybe they find it easier to admit their mistakes after their term, maybe they think they are better off sticking to their guns.  so to speak), in fact an ever changing position I think would be good.

More like Clinton is doing what he can to get his wife elected.  Including lying  about his position on the Iraq conflict now.

So it's not President Bush's fault huh?  It's Mr. Clinton's fault and  Mr. Bush just got bad information and advice on Weapons of Mass Destruction.  Don't you think if you were going to be held accountable for your actions by ALL OF AMERICA, you had better make damn sure that you make decisions you will stand by.  Maybe that's the beep beeps problem.

There was no bad information about WMD.  The far left and the media have distorted everything about wmd and the events up to this action.  From wmd to saddam attempt to buy yellowcake.  The fact is we have found WMD in Iraq along with tons of other banned weapons and materials.

[George Jung]

More like Clinton is doing what he can to get his wife elected. Including lying about his position on the Iraq conflict now.

I am sure you can support that.  Can't you?  Or are you just so far right that you only think and speak in one direction?

[Sluff]

There is so much information out there who knows what to believe? i voted for Busch and I stand by my vote. I don't agree with every decision that is made, but no matter who is President, they won't make everyone happy with every decision.

[meadowlandsnj]

The only way America can be defeated in this war,,,,now pay close attention to this...
Will be by the UNDERMINING OF PRESIDENT BUSH,,BY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY...
THAT IS GOING ON " NOW"..
FACT..

So Democrat equals bad?
Republican equals good?

 
That's a very narrow minded way of thinking.  Maybe that's your opinion but it's not a fact.

Donna

[BigSky]

I am sure you can support that.  Can't you?  Or are you just so far right that you only think and speak in one direction?

Did you ever pay attention to all the years of what went on in Iraq during the Clinton years?

If you did you would know he is full of it on his sudden change in position just in time to fit in with the far left. 

[George Jung]

Did you ever pay attention to all the years of what went on in Iraq during the Clinton years?

If you did you would know he is full of it on his sudden change in position just in time to fit in with the far left.

Man, that's why I hate polotics.  Everyone is ready to point a finger.  To be frank with you for a second......I don't give a shit why Mr. Clinton has changed his position.  I hope everyone has changed their position to a direction where we will protect our freedom.  Wouldn't you change you mind after 9/11.  I mean so what if he is speaking differently now about Iraq or whatever else, is he not entitled to that, are you not in any way glad about it.  The man wants to protect the country.....isn't that what all Americans want?  Who wants to lie down?  I mean you said the man was "lying" about his position now.  That doesn't make any sense!  It also apperas to me that you are not answering as many questions that are coming up in this debate and what you do answer is either opinion or is not backed up by "real facts".  You don't want to discuss numbers, you don't want to talk about stop-loss or admit that our military forces are being strained.  How about we start with those numbers BigSky?  Didn't you say that you can make numbers mean anything you want?

To answer you question about me paying attention to what went on in Iraq when Clinton was President......not as much as I was paying attention to Monica giving head in the Oval Office!

[George Jung]

The only way America can be defeated in this war,,,,now pay close attention to this...
Will be by the UNDERMINING OF PRESIDENT BUSH,,BY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY...
THAT IS GOING ON " NOW"..
FACT..

So Democrat equals bad?
Republican equals good?

 
That's a very narrow minded way of thinking.  Maybe that's your opinion but it's not a fact.

Donna

NO, Donna.  Democrat does not equate to bad just as Republican does not equate to good.  If someone does take that stance i think they are foolish and narrow minded as well.  I have voted in several presidential elections and have never gone all republican or all democratic.  In fact I don't consider myself to be in one category or another.  Personally, I take the independent vote because I don't agree with "I'm Right", or "I'm Left".  Both parties have pros and cons IMO.  I think as of right now I would vote for Hilliary, but I obviously need to wait and make that decision when I have enough information to be sure.

[BigSky]

You don't want to discuss numbers, you don't want to talk about stop-loss or admit that our military forces are being strained.  How about we start with those numbers BigSky?  Didn't you say that you can make numbers mean anything you want?

Just because you copy and paste a bunch of stuff doesn't mean it backs your position up despite you thinking so.

Case in point.

1.   3,217: Number of American troops killed in Iraq since the beginning of the war

2.    54: Percentage of troops killed who were 24 years old or younger


1.   Troop death in any war isn't what one wants.  Those numbers do not back you up in your stance and if you think they do you are mistaken.  If that was the case we better pull out of California and Washington DC as the death rate far exceeds that in only two years.  How about viewing it historically?  That number is roughly just over 2/10 of one percent.  Which you may note is roughly over 10% less than occurred in WWII.

2.   Is that number surprising to you?  You might note that those that do most of the jobs in the military are younger.  This happens when you have a military that has an enlistment age as low as 17.

To answer you question about me paying attention to what went on in Iraq when Clinton was President......not as much as I was paying attention to Monica giving head in the Oval Office!

I have no doubt you were.

Politics are not hard to understand.

The good majority of the far left loves  Bill C. and in their eyes can do no wrong.  I mean he lied in court in the Paula Jones case, had his law license stripped and then had the SC bar him from ever appearing in front of them.  All while being a sitting president.  This meant nothing to them.

Hilliary voted for the war and voted on it using a vast amount of information that was gathered from her husbands terms.   Hillary's problem now is she wants to cater to the far left that got Bill elected.  However the problem is in order for her to do that she needs to flip flop on her position.  This will be deadly to her ambitions because she will alienate the center and the just left and just right folks who will vote for her and she will get hounded by the country for pulling a John Kerry.

Now she gets Bill out there dancing like a monkey  and have him cater to the far left.  It will not matter to them what his position was before, its just that he agrees with them now even if its not genuine. Not only will they not hold anything against him, but he may well get to enough dancing  so that he draws in their vote.  They will think it will be like old times since Bill will be in the WH and will great influence with Hillary.  Come one now.  Latest polls say that over 50% of the country fears that she may become president yet she leads in the money.

[George Jung]

Politics are not hard to understand.

Well there BigSky, Obviously not for a man of such great, genius, innovation, and intelligence, such as yourself!  I believe you have changed my mind with your easy to understand polotics and policies, so clearly portrayed.  I am thinking to myself as I type "What was I ever thinking about?  I should have listened sooo long ago."  I sure do wish there were more Americans that understood polotics like you do.  If someone could have explained it to me sooner, I wouldn't have read all of those articles  and coppied and pasted all of that worthless information. 

No, no.....I mean it!  You are a wonder to me!  The way you took that number report and just turned the whole thing around, that was perhaps the most impressive argument you have made for yourself.  It must be the way your brain works or something and what else can I say.....that kind of genius is becoming more and more uncommon.  Less and less Americans have that ability to process information such as you do.  You are becoming a rare breed indeed! 

You got me my friend........I am at a complete loss.....I should have heard you from the beginning of this debate but I couldn't, it may be clear to you, but please be kind and remember I don't have a fully functional genius wonder of a brain with insight like you do BigSky.   

BigSky.........

[George Jung]

BigSky, I almost forgot..........................











Oh, Hell, never mind!

[bigshot99]

I have had one person tell me that K.I.A. means nothing,can you believe that,then asks me what info i have to talk about,or make a statement  the moral of  the troops.Well i then told this joker that my son is over there and so on,and that K.I.A.does mean something to the troops and other people and me. When you look at past wars our K.I.A. rate is verry good,also last time i was able to talk with my son he has stated that troop moral is good and they are doing well,my son wants to stay in this fight because like the other troops there they see the head way and progress thats made by them.
sounds like you too have some one over there in Iraq.

[bigshot99]

the question was ,what facts and then states K.I.A. is nothing??sorry but the K.I.A. is nothing statement by you does not sound good.

[George Jung]

If you happen to be talking about me, George, then you are terribly mistaken.  I said that K.I.A. by ITSELF means nothing.  You can not judge, compare, measure, or whatever, a war on K.I.A. ALONE.  I have read you posts and I have to tell you I have been taking it easy on you, so I hope you are talking about someone else in that last post bigshot99.