Is it acceptable for the US government to torture people?

[paul.karen]

Tortur comes in many forms
If we get information on an immenient attack then yes it is well worth it.
The problem with WAR in this day and age is it is all in public view.

We the people know much more then we likley should know.
And when we prevent a tragedy we rarly hear about it.

Anyone who thinks that when we leave Irag should be public knowledge IMO has very little knowledge of how things should be done.

Many also have short memories.  Remember our service men who were burned dismemberd and hung on bridges.  IF that was your son or daughter and we captured some of the people who did that to them.  Who knew positions of where many who did this were.  And we waterboarded them to get this info.  Would that truly be a bad thing??

Also the geneva convention never once mentioned TERRORSITS.  It was made for people who were caught in the batttlefield in battlegear/uniforms.
This is a new type of war.
Which means new rules.   IMO.

Do i agree with torture.
I think we should NEVER hear about it if it happens.

many liberals want Gitmo shut down.  many also want them people to come here to America.
I dont want them  do you??

[Wallyz]

We should allow our government to torture people, and its OK as long as they don't tell us?

What is wrong with you people? Governments that can torture in secret can torture its citizens in secret.

And what happens when they get the wrong guy and torture him?  Who is responsible?  I guess they should just dumb his body and not tell anyone.


Sweet fancy moses, you are stunningly incogitant.

[monrein]

Here are some quotes from military types who see the issue of torture, in the context of Guantanamo, quite differently than those who think it's somehow justifiable.   John McCain is to be respected also for his condemnation of torture, a practice that demeans our humanity and makes us as awful as anything we decry.   To stoop to the level of "terrorists" whose actions we despise is to blur the difference between them and us and to render us all despicable.

I shan't even comment on the "it's OK if no one knows" angle.  I'm too busy throwing up.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/stoptorture/haroldkumarquotes.pdf

[kimcanada]

Is it acceptable for the US government to torture people?...

No Never, because then you are as barbaric as the people you hate

As for out of sight out of mind,  its amazing how peoples minds work when they arn't talking about "their own people"

[paul.karen]

Do we know what plots may have been avoided due to manipulation of people agains there wills?
Torture is so unPC.
And so many here seem to be PC.

So if we were to have tortured some people and found out about the 9/11 plot and avoided that tragedy it wouldnt have been a just cause?

[monrein]

“Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient
methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that
such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary.”
 
-David H. Petraeus, General, United States Army, Commanding
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/petraeus_values_051007.pdf


Political correctness....psshaw.    Torture is not only a disgrace, it's also not effective. 

[Zach]

“Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient
methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that
such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary.”
 
-David H. Petraeus, General, United States Army, Commanding
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/petraeus_values_051007.pdf

So who does he think he is?

[Patton]

It is illegal to torture a prisoner or anyone else. BUT, the government COULD send "black ops soldiers" and find the crucial person, interrogate, torture, or anything else, and just happen to report the info learned.

Also, I happen to believe interrogation techniques ARE necessary to gather vital information. If you are yelling or hitting someone, while they are detained and they have no escape route, they are more likely to give up information, to get you to stop. If a prisoner is not interrogated and not put under stress, then how else do you suggest to make them give you the info you need?

And as far as being barbaric and demeaning humanity, I would rather save my "brothers" life, than protect his/her pride or way of life. I can argue this idea all day long. My first answer to any argument will be....If we were their prisoner, they would do just as much, and then some. I can provide facts to back that up. Remember Jessica Lynch? the beheadings and beatings of contractors and soldiers held captive?

Life ain't all sunshine and rainbows. We must get information, by any means we can.

[pelagia]

Do we know what plots may have been avoided due to manipulation of people agains there wills?
Torture is so unPC.
And so many here seem to be PC.

I call it being civilized, not being PC. 

[Sluff]

Maybe we should just be nice to them, give them candy and soda, cable TV, Nintendo games ,personal laptops, steak and lobster everyday so then all terrorists will want to be caught. Heck lets paint and manicure their nails while were at it. Seems like the the most liberal treatment to me, and all the while we have homeless shelters overflowing, bankruptcy filings at an increased level and shortage of jobs. That's OK Our people can be treated inhumane, but don't dare treat a terrorist prisoner disrespectfully.  I'm sorry if anyone comes into my house with murder and torture on their minds, I will defend my family, and either the intruder or I will be leaving in a hearse, that is  a promise. I feel the same about my Country.

[Bill Peckham]

Maybe we should just be nice to them, give them candy and soda, cable TV, Nintendo games ,personal laptops, steak and lobster everyday so then all terrorists will want to be caught. Heck lets paint and manicure their nails while were at it. Seems like the the most liberal treatment to me, and all the while we have homeless shelters overflowing, bankruptcy filings at an increased level and shortage of jobs. That's OK Our people can be treated inhumane, but don't dare treat a terrorist prisoner disrespectfully.  I'm sorry if anyone comes into my house with murder and torture on their minds, I will defend my family, and either the intruder or I will be leaving in a hearse, that is  a promise. I feel the same about my Country.

How about listening to the soldiers in the field? From Andrew Sullivan at the Atlantic, "the false dichotomy that argues that somehow retaining the Bush-Cheney torture regime makes us any safer is exploded by this kind of testimony from a leading interrogator in Iraq:

 

   Torture and abuse are against my moral fabric. The cliche still bears repeating: Such outrages are inconsistent with American principles. And then there's the pragmatic side: Torture and abuse cost American lives.

    I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq.

    The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

He reminds us that we found Zarqawi through interrogation by traditional methods, and that this humane approach would have given us better information and helped us turn around the Sunnis against al Qaeda sooner:

One actually told me, "I thought you would torture me, and when you didn't, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That's why I decided to cooperate.""

The point of torture is always torture. If giving a guy a steak is a way to meet our objectives and torturing a guy is a way to make our situation worse then I say hell yes give the guy a steak.

Torture and abuse cost American lives. That's really all I need to know.

[BigSky]

.

Torture and abuse cost American lives. That's really all I need to know.

And the fact is not doing a damn thing cost nearly 3000 American lives on 9/11.

[Bill Peckham]

.

Torture and abuse cost American lives. That's really all I need to know.

And the fact is not doing a damn thing cost nearly 3000 American lives on 9/11.

That's called a non sequetor.

[BigSky]

That's called a non sequetor.

Actually its not.

BTW how many terrorist attacks have occurred on the mainland and killed thousands of people since 9/11?

[kellyt]

Maybe we should just be nice to them, give them candy and soda, cable TV, Nintendo games ,personal laptops, steak and lobster everyday so then all terrorists will want to be caught. Heck lets paint and manicure their nails while were at it. Seems like the the most liberal treatment to me, and all the while we have homeless shelters overflowing, bankruptcy filings at an increased level and shortage of jobs. That's OK Our people can be treated inhumane, but don't dare treat a terrorist prisoner disrespectfully.  I'm sorry if anyone comes into my house with murder and torture on their minds, I will defend my family, and either the intruder or I will be leaving in a hearse, that is  a promise. I feel the same about my Country.

Hey, we reserve that kind of treatment for our murders, pedophiles, rapists, etc.   

[Wallyz]

I love the fact that the leading military interrogators in the Armed forces are ignored or called PC by dilletantes who don't have any experience outside of the 24 marathon.

Torture is about "Punishing" someone or some set of people, and justified by the "Well, we might get information about something" argument.

However, the central ethical issue concerning governmental power is "what happens when the government gets the wrong person?"

Casual attitudes about torture lead to innocent people being tortured and killed.  If even one innocent person is tortured or killed by the government, it loses any moral justification for action, and becomes despotic, using power simply to maintain power.

[paul.karen]

What if one innocent person is saved??

Go ahead call me some more names for not agreeing with you.
For forming my own mind and decisions on issues you disagree with.

Remember the Millenium attacks that were PREVENTED.  That were set to go off in the Greater Northwest (Seattle Area).  Gee we got that information from waterboarding Terrorist who dont wear uniforms and caught the Terrorsist at the Canadian/American border who were set and ready to set off bombs.

And NO I DONT think the public should know everything the goverment does.

[BigSky]

I love the fact that the leading military interrogators in the Armed forces are ignored or called PC by dilletantes who don't have any experience outside of the 24 marathon.

If they truly believed that then it would never have been done. 

[Wallyz]

That is a truly amazing point of view BigSky.   A leading person in the field of interrogation makes a definitive statement, but is discounted, just because someone else somewhere else  ignored his findings?  You could have appeal to to other authority, but you are appealing to your own opinion.  You have no authority ont he issue whatsoever.

[paul.karen]

No answer to my points of view Wally?
No answers to the fact that the millenium attacks were prevented due to coercion from Terrorists to give up there information.  Wonder how many innocent people may have died if that atttack were to have happened.

And for the record i NEVER said i agree with torture.

I dont make things personal and call names to people for having there own thoughts.
Nor say i cant believe You people if you dont agree with my opinions.

Carry on.

[BigSky]

That is a truly amazing point of view BigSky.   A leading person in the field of interrogation makes a definitive statement, but is discounted, just because someone else somewhere else  ignored his findings?  You could have appeal to to other authority, but you are appealing to your own opinion.  You have no authority ont he issue whatsoever.

Except the fact he was NEVER the lead investigator in gitmo was he.

[Patton]

No matter who says what, and who argues this subject, we need to keep in mind the simple truth that the ultimate goal is to save our fellow comrades, Americans, and anybody who has taken an alliance for our cause. Another thing to remember is, the whole subject of "war, torture, and the like" are done whether we agree with it or not. If this helps to keep us safe, and we are able to live our lives normally, then wouldn't you rather have the enemy suffer, rather than you, or your wife, or your husband, daughter, son, brother, sister, or anybody else you care about?
I for one, would much rather have an insurgent, beaten and interrogated, than to allow them to prosper in their way of life. Because their way of life is hijacking our planes, blowing shit up, killing our friends and families, killing our troops, and killing each other.

Another point to mention....do you really think it affects them to be tortured? they strap bombs to themselves and walk up to civilians and soldiers, and mosques, and blow themselves to hell. Whats the difference? The difference is we can still have a chance to get information, and prevent further innocent deaths.

That would be all.

 

[Bill Peckham]

"No U.S. president can justify a policy that fails to achieve its intended results by pointing to the purity and rectitude of his intentions"
Paul Wolfowitz, "Statesmanship in the New Century," in Kagan, R. and Kristol, W, eds. Present Dangers: Crisis and Opportunity in American Foreign and Defense Policy, San Francisco, 2000, p. 335.

I agree. Intentions aren't relevant to the discussion.

[monrein]

Patton, as a young man who has made a commendable decision to enter the military in order to serve your country, perhaps you would be interested in the views of some well-known people with military experience themselves, who are opposed to the concept of torture for a variety of reasons.  I would not presume for a moment that either you or I know more about these matters than these 12 men with their many years of combined experience.  

 

 
Quotes on Guantánamo and Torture
 
 
''I'd like to see it shut down...I believe that from the standpoint of how it reflects on us that it's
been pretty damaging.”
 
-Admiral Michael Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
www.miamiherald.com/guantanamo/story/378038.html
 
 
“If it were up to me I would close Guantánamo not tomorrow but this afternoon...Essentially, we
have shaken the belief that the world had in America’s justice system...and it’s causing us far
more damage than any good we get from it.”
 
-Colin Powell, former U.S. Secretary of State  
www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1043646920070610
 
 
“I came to this job thinking that Guantánamo Bay should be closed.”
 
-Robert M. Gates, Secretary of Defense
www.nytimes.com/2007/03/30/washington/30gitmo.html?scp=3&sq=robert+gates+guantanamo&st=nyt
 
 
"It gives us a very, very bad name, not just internationally. I have a great deal of difficulty
understanding how we can hold someone, pick someone up, particularly someone who might be
an American citizen—even if they were caught somewhere abroad, acting against American
interests—and hold them without ever giving them an opportunity to appear before a magistrate."
 
-James A. Baker III, former U.S. Secretary of State
www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-advice28mar28,1,2275646.story
 
 
“The difference between us and the enemy is how we treat the enemy.”
 
-Rear. Adm. John Hutson, former Navy lawyer
www.upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?StoryID=20060119-043756-2616r
 
 
 “Torture does not work.”
 
-Porter Goss, former director of the CIA
www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-11-20-cia-detainees_x.htm
Amnesty International USA   600 Pennsylvania Ave SE, 5th Fl   Washington DC 20003   T202.544.0200 F202.546.7142   amnestyusa.org
 
“Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient
methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that
such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary.”
 
-David H. Petraeus, General, United States Army, Commanding
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/petraeus_values_051007.pdf
 
 
“Anybody with real combat experience understands that torture is counterproductive.”
 
-F. Andy Messing, retired major U.S. Special Forces and director of the National Defense Council
www.cvt.org/file.php?ID=5575
 
 
“Cruelty disfigures our national character.  It is incompatible with our constitutional order, with
our laws, and with our most prized values ...there is no more fundamental right than to be safe
from cruel and inhumane treatment.  Where cruelty exists, law does not.”
 
-Alberto Mora, former general counsel of the United States Navy
www.jfklibrary.org/Education+and+Public+Programs/Profile+in+Courage+Award/Award+Recipients/Alberto+Mora/Acceptance+Speech+by+Alberto+Mora.htm
 
 
“My approach was what we call a relationship-based approach—far more than just rapport-building. I’ve
never felt any necessity or operational requirement to bring physical, psychological or emotional pressure
on a source to win their cooperation. So, following the guidance in the [Army] field manual, I feel
unconstrained in my ability to work in the paradigm that I’ve taught for so many years.”
 
-Colonel Steven Kleinman, U.S. Air Force Reserve, former military interrogator
http://intelligence.senate.gov/070925/transcript.pdf
 
 
“I have been hard pressed to find a situation where anybody can tell me that they’ve ever
encountered the ticking-bomb scenario... a show like 24...makes all of us believe that this is real—
it’s not. Throw that stuff out, it doesn’t happen.”  
 
-Jack Cloonan, FBI special agent from 1977 - 2002
www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4193
 
 
“They prepared me for interrogations by putting electric shocks through my feet. For hours on
end they would hang me up by my hands, which were bound behind my back... A doctor looked in
to see if you were still alive...”
 
-Murat Kurnaz, on his treatment at a U.S.facility in Kandahar, Afghanistan.  
He spent 5 years in Guantánamo and was released in 2006 after a personal plea from German
Chancellor Angela Merkel to President George W. Bush.  
Stern magazine, Spring 2008. Volume 34, no. 1, reprinted in Amnesty International magazine, Spring 2008
 
 
 

[Bill Peckham]

>>Standing Ovation<<