Is it acceptable for the US government to torture people?

[aharris2]

P.S.  Don't you have your own site?   

What's this?

Bill is a member of IHD and I enjoy his posts - all of them!

Alene

[paul.karen]

Im sickened to see so many people want the TERRORISTS to have SO MANY RIGHTS>
While they kill innocent children men and woman.   

[Wallyz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMqReTJkjjg


Start at 2:27.

Wm Roper: So, you'd give the Devil the benefit of the law.
Tms More: Yes, what would you do?  Cut a great road through the Law to get after the Devil?
Wm Roper: Yes! I'd cut down every law in England for that!
Tms More: Oh, and when the last law was down and the devil turned round on you, where would you hide, Robert, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, coast to coast, Man's law's not God's, and if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the wind that would blow then?




This debate is old, my friends, and history has taught some people that if you make laws, then destroy the laws in order to get at people and forces that oppose the laws, you have lost.

Some of these people are bad men.  Some are innocent, and never fought against the united states. All require the benefit of protection of law, becasue if we fail to give that protection, we have lost our ability to be free people.

[kimcanada]

Very well said Wally, but I am sure it will fall on deaf ears... 

From what I gather the opposition thinks that you are guilty till proven innocent, I am sure if they were in that position they would prefer to have it innocent till proven guilty

Its a sad day in the year 2009 when you have that mindset.

Im sickened to see so many people want the TERRORISTS to have SO MANY RIGHTS>
While they kill innocent children men and woman.   

Never forget there is women and children dying all over the big big world of OURS.  And ever woman, child and man that dies is war is a SHAME A WASTE GAWD

[paul.karen]

Your right when men and woman and children die in a war it is a shame.

I am glad that we try to avoid this while TERRORIST try to do exactly the opposite.  World trade center comes to mind.  There was no army base there was there??

And waterboarding is far from Torture in the aspects of torture as i know it.
No scars=no side effects-no broken bones just a scare tactic.  No one has died from it and it has only happened to a SMALL amount of TERRORISTS.  Yes maybe i am wrong and we truly are the bad guys.

Dont be a hater because others have a different viewpoint.

Maybe if you lived close to the WTC and saw MUSLIMS dancing in the streets in Patterson NJ.  You would have a different mind set.  Then again maybe not?

And i never ever said i am for torture. But i am for gathering information if it will save lifes.  A few select here would;d rather Americans DIED then to waterboard a few TERRORISTS to save ourselfs.
That makes me     It would seem some would rather Americans or anyoneone innocent die rather then to waterbaord a TERRORIST.


My ears are wide open as are my eyes.
just the other day they showed a few released gitmo prisoners on TV.  they are now commanders for al Quada. many others have run suicide raids and killed more innocent men woman and children.  Good thing we didnt get them wet huh.

PS.
Many here may not like me due to my viewpoint.
Which is fine.   I hope it doesnt carry over to the rest of IHD.
Cause i see no ill effect in having open discusions and would never not talk to anyone due to there stance on issues i may disagree with.  I leave these thoughts here.  But maybe that is just me 

[Wallyz]

You missed what Judge Crawford said, and also the issue relating to record keeping at Guantanamo.

The terrorists we have given trials int he US are in prison.  The Ones held in Gitmo without trial, records or evidence, are going t o be less free.  These men who were released, if they were Al Qaeda should have had trials and been jailed in the US. They were set free because of the way they were held.


This whole thing is empowering the terrorists, and keeping us from doing what we need to do.  We stepped in it, now we are going to have to extricate ourselves, and start over.

[kimcanada]

.  Yes maybe i am wrong and we truly are the bad guys.

Dont be a hater because others have a different viewpoint.

Maybe if you lived close to the WTC and saw MUSLIMS dancing in the streets in Patterson NJ.  You would have a different mind set.  Then again maybe not?

I am only 1000km's from NYC, and cried for days over WTC , I can't recall any news programs of Muslims dancing in the street in Patterson NJ, but maybe somehow I missed it...

But I can assure you that my mine set wouldn't change.

[MandaMe1986]

Wow I would have loved to be a part of this debate.  But seeing as how I missed most of it I have to say. I agree that torture is the less of two evils. It isn't plesent, but some times it calls for it.  As for the debate about Bush.  I haven't been 100% happy with him. But who's to say anyone else would have done any better. 9/11 happend right after he took office.  No one else had to decided what to do. As a country I think we need to support who ever is in office.  Like I didn't vote for Obma but he is who we as a country voted for.  So I  hope he dose good.

[BigSky]

You missed what Judge Crawford said, and also the issue relating to record keeping at Guantanamo.

Would that be the part about how us insulting the terrorists mother and sister was in essence torture?  How much lower should the bar be?  Next it will be if we dont tell them they are special everyday we are torturing them.

The terrorists we have given trials int he US are in prison.  The Ones held in Gitmo without trial, records or evidence, are going t o be less free.  These men who were released, if they were Al Qaeda should have had trials and been jailed in the US. They were set free because of the way they were held.

As per the Geneva Conventions we can hold these people.  We also do not have to give them trials UNTIL the war is over as is allowed under the Geneva Conventions.  As we all know the war is not over.

 We are allowed to try them under military tribunal as war criminals as is outlined in the GC.  Therefore we DO NOT have to try them in the civil criminal courts.  Nor do we have to give them any rights under our Constitution.  This is covered by military rules.

These people are held under four classifications.  When there status is determined that is how they are processed.  Once that was done we have released many that were thought to be innocent or were turned over to us on bad information.  Others were either set free for other reasons or released to their country of origin for rehabilitation under their own system.   Which btw some have been caught again on the battlefield and are back at Gitmo.

Of those that are left are some their home countries REFUSE to take them. Some countries want them just so they can execute them.   Some countries have stepped up and said they would take these non citizens  for their own purposes.

Personally I think we should follow the letter of the law and turn them over and let their home countries do with them what they wish.

So in fact we have gone to great strides to do the best we can.

[Bill Peckham]

So after 8 years of a secrete torture policy that resulted in dozens (or scores?) of people being tortured to death, the truth emerges as the truth always will. Here it is in their own words (all links are to PDFs):

http://72.3.233.244/pdfs/safefree/olc_08012002_bybee.pdf   --  a Top Secret memo by OLC's Jay Bybee to CIA counsel John Rizzo about torture techniques used on Abu Zubaydah, August 1, 2002.

http://72.3.233.244/pdfs/safefree/olc_05102005_bradbury46pg.pdf -- a Top Secret/SCI memo from the OLC's Steven Bradbury to Rizzo about waterboarding and other techniques, 1995

http://72.3.233.244/pdfs/safefree/olc_05102005_bradbury_20pg.pdf -- a Top Secret/SCI memo from Bradbury describing the techniques that could be used in combination with each other.

http://72.3.233.244/pdfs/safefree/olc_05302005_bradbury.pdf

[Wallyz]

Sad.  Now we'll be waiting for the folks on the right who called us liars to apologize.

[MandaMe1986]

Just going to add my 

Just because the government turned a blind eye to the information received by form of torture dose not mean it didn't work.  The fact that the information was received proves that it dose work.   I don't believe that a government should torture people for the fun of it. But if it is the only way to get the information you need, and you are going to use it. Then do it.  Do you think that Al-Qaeda is taking it easy on someone they capture? No, they are going to torture them much worse then we are.  We have written laws to tell our soldiers what they can and can't do in torture.  And who are you to question what the government has to do?  They have done what has to be done for years, now you are going to come along and tell them its wrong?  What right do you have?  If anyone has the right it is the poor people who have to torture others.   Our soldiers join the government for one reason and one reason only. To protect us. And if torturing someone is one thing they have to do, to make sure there job gets done. Then so be it.  Let them do there dam job.

[Wallyz]

It was worse than ineffective, the fact that they tortured people caused them to be unable to ever charge them with anything.  People that we all agree are dangerous people were have to be released be cause their detention and confessions are tainted.  This is the problem.

[BigSky]

Interesting those conclusions say it is not torture.


 If he wants to claim those techniques used today are torture that is his right.  However what Holder says today has no authority to what went on back then.

Those enhanced interrogation techniques were very effective.

AGAIN.....

As reported by the Associated Press, that once these methods were used on the terrorists they talked.

No less than 8 terrorist attacks were directly averted and numerous peoples lives saved because they talked.

Intelligence given that lead to identifying nearly 100 individuals chosen by al-qaeda for terrorist acts, many of which have now been caught and removed from the field.

Al-Libi talked and warned of a bombing to occur on a US embassy.  He also gave up fellow terrorist Abu Zubaydah which then was captured on the information he gave up.  Abu Zubaydah was head behind the  new millennium bombing attempt.

Abu Zubaydah wouldnt talk at first and then interrogated using these methods and was forced to listen to loud music and he fessed up.  He gave up numerous terrorists some of who were  Al-Faruq, Al-Nashiri, and Al-Shibh


You are sadly mistaken if you think they will release Khalid alive.





But hey, in all this isnt it interesting how you are not saying ANYTHING about how the treatment of those at Gitmo is actually worse under Obama than it was under Bush and this "torture".  

[Bill Peckham]

"You would like to place Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular, you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him," - Jay Bybee, judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.

"‘The worst thing in the world,’ said O’Brien, ‘varies from individual to individual. It may be burial alive, or death by fire, or by drowning, or by impalement, or fifty other deaths. There are cases where it is some quite trivial thing, not even fatal,’" - George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty Four.

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him." - Nuremberg Principle IV

No statute of limitations on torture. Not to mention the professional sanctions that should flow in short order upon the lawyers and the doctors involved.

[BigSky]

In short the conclusion of those documents show it was not considered torture because it does not constitute severe pain or severe suffering as required under international law.


All this Administration can do is claim its torture now.  They have absolutely zero power to do anything to anyone before they issued the claim it is now considered torture.


The UN doesn't even have a list of acts it considers torture under the convention. 

[Bill Peckham]

In short the conclusion of those documents show it was not considered torture because it does not constitute severe pain or severe suffering as required under international law.


All this Administration can do is claim its torture now.  They have absolutely zero power to do anything to anyone before they issued the claim it is now considered torture.


The UN doesn't even have a list of acts it considers torture under the convention.

Read the 2002 memo by Bybee who argues that "suffering" did not have a meaning independent of "pain" in the phrase "severe physical or mental pain OR suffering". That conclusion could not stand up to any serious legal scrutiny. You know that Bybee doesn't even believe it because he goes out of his way to change the phrase to "pain AND suffering" on page 11.

The way the logic in these memos ties itself into knots makes it clear that they, everyone involved, knew what they were doing was torture. When it is pointed out that our State Department, while this was going on, was calling the same techniques torture when other countries did them tells you that the entire justification for the program rested on the idea that we were doing the torturing for a good reason while those other countries were torturing for the wrong reasons. That is insane.

This was clearly torture. These memos confirm the International Red Cross report.

As far as having zero power. Bybee is a federal appeals court judge now - these written opinions are clear grounds for impeachment due to professional incompetence. He can be brought on charges by the House and tried in the Senate. I would expect that to happen. The doctors and other lawyers should face professional sanction and I suspect will loose their professional credentials.

There is no "list" because there is an infinite number of ways to commit torture. As these memos show once you narrowly define what constitutes torture you can find techniques that don't fit your narrow definition. This is why the actual language of laws and treaties that ban torture rely on more general terms such as "severe physical or mental pain or suffering". This isn't the world's first rodeo.

We, the human race, have dealt with this throughout our time on this planet. Torture is banned because of our long experience dealing with it.

[BigSky]

The conventions say severe pain and suffering.  Which means severe pain and severe suffering.


He made it quite clear and said it did not constitute severe suffering as is required by the conventions in his view.

The government can change that view, however it has zero power to go back and charge people with todays standards for things that occurred before that.  Ex post facto of the Constitution forbids it.

Also you are taking out of context what he means by the term "pain and suffering" on that page.

[Bill Peckham]

Provide the link. It is always OR.

[Wallyz]

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html

For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

This is what Bybee was quoting, and he intentionally misquoted it.

[BigSky]

The term OR instead of and does not divert that it means severe suffering.

If it was to mean suffering alone as you suggest, then merely detaining someone constitutes suffering.

[paul.karen]

So from what im reading a some people would rather AGAIN another 3000 or maybe 300,000 Americans should die from a terrorist attack.

Plain and simple.  Even if they knew they beyond a doubt they could avoid this terrorist attack with waterboarding.  Or putting a man in a box with a Caterpillar.

I mean come on its not like we are killing them?  and even if we did?  They arnt under arrest for jaywalking.

Manda i agree with you 100%.   We do it out of necessity not for fun.

From what im hearing any terrorist that runs out of ammunition should wave a white flag be arrested then claim he has rights to be brought to America and put on trail.  Where the ACLU and many on the left would actually try to get them off. This is my viewpoint in a nutshell.

[Bill Peckham]

So from what im reading a some people would rather AGAIN another 3000 or maybe 300,000 Americans should die from a terrorist attack.

Plain and simple.  Even if they knew they beyond a doubt they could avoid this terrorist attack with waterboarding.  Or putting a man in a box with a Caterpillar.

I mean come on its not like we are killing them?  and even if we did?  They arnt under arrest for jaywalking.

Manda i agree with you 100%.   We do it out of necessity not for fun.

From what im hearing any terrorist that runs out of ammunition should wave a white flag be arrested then claim he has rights to be brought to America and put on trail.  Where the ACLU and many on the left would actually try to get them off. This is my viewpoint in a nutshell.

I don't doubt that is what you hear(heard). That you hear that, is a topic worthy of close examination.

[Wallyz]

They aren't under arrest at all. That's the problem.  and now that we have tortured them, we can't arrest them.  We tortured them, and because of that, they can never stand trial, and they have to be let go.  That's pathetic.  What a complete foul up of the war of terror.

[Rerun]

Let's just TEABAG them!  Would that be torture!  OH Hell NO they would LOVE THAT!