Death By ObamaCare- Cancer Patients Getting Reamed

[MooseMom]

Not surprisingly, this thread has strayed greatly from the OP.

Most threads stray.

[plugger]

No no no. What part of do not PM me was confusing?

Bill,

Here I am trying to be a nice guy and giving you the choice of posting the PM or not and you have a fit.  I'm hoping Arlene and I are deluded and sadly mistaken, but she has been spot-on on just about everything she has told me.  And give her credit, she has spent many years helping dismissed patients and there is no denying that, just listen to their stories.  She has grumbled about you over the years, but I figured she hadn't seen what you were up to lately.  I get the email with some harsh criticisms and I play the odds here - she is probably right.  But let's hope we aren't!  I hope this is all temporary insanity on our part!  It will be worth a little egg on my face!

But tell you what, I'll see if this is worth our time to pursue, otherwise what I said stands.  And I guess I got a little fixated on AAKP when I saw you defending them once again in a post years ago (was searching for something else):
http://www.dialysisethics2.org/forum/index.php?topic=335.msg337#msg337

[G.Lively]

Pardon my ignorance, but the heck is "AAKP"?
I suspect it is a slam against the AARP.  If so, I am disgruntled to find a snark on this website.

[Bill Peckham]

Not surprisingly, this thread has strayed greatly from the OP.

Most threads stray.

Or is it the threads you are posting to? Causation vs correlation ...

[amanda100wilson]

So Noahvale, how would you have it?  Back to death panels?  how old are you?  Maybe the death panel wouldn't deem you worthy of living?

[Bill Peckham]

But tell you what, I'll see if this is worth our time to pursue, otherwise what I said stands.  And I guess I got a little fixated on AAKP when I saw you defending them once again in a post years ago (was searching for something else):
http://www.dialysisethics2.org/forum/index.php?topic=335.msg337#msg337

I stand by those posts 100%. If that passes as evidence of someone standing against people who are involuntarily discharged, then it perfectly illustrates why I believe you are deluded.

You haven't explained what troubles me the most about the DE/arlene broadside, to believe all that you wrote you have to believe Northwest Kidney Centers is the enemy. I joined the NKC board in 1997, if I'm a mouthpiece it is for them, if I report to corporate overlords it is to them, if I am leading patients to slaughter it must be NKC holding the axe.

How could you believe that? What the hell is the matter with you people?

[Bill Peckham]

Pardon my ignorance, but the heck is "AAKP"?
I suspect it is a slam against the AARP.  If so, I am disgruntled to find a snark on this website.

http://bit.ly/1jLjX7x

[G.Lively]

You are forgiven Mr. Peckham.  I won't bop you on the head now.

[Hemodoc]

Not surprisingly, this thread has strayed greatly from the OP.

Most threads stray.

Or is it the threads you are posting to? Causation vs correlation ...

Well, yes, in one sense since I am usually the object of the personal attacks, that is true and I pretty much only post in the political sections which engender these personal attacks, but causation? I certainly didn't start or condone the personal attacks on this thread against you.

[Bill Peckham]

Well, yes, in one sense since I am usually the object of the personal attacks, that is true and I pretty much only post in the political sections which engender these personal attacks, but causation? I certainly didn't start or condone the personal attacks on this thread against you.

It wasn't clear that I was teasing MM about her participation correlating to threads straying? Or are you being ironic?

[Hemodoc]

Bill,

But tell you what, I'll see if this is worth our time to pursue, otherwise what I said stands.  And I guess I got a little fixated on AAKP when I saw you defending them once again in a post years ago (was searching for something else):
http://www.dialysisethics2.org/forum/index.php?topic=335.msg337#msg337

There is no doubt that all of the major renal support organizations are dominated by corporate support. Very hard to avoid that in a large organization. That being said, if we have no voice in what AAKP and other organizations state, then they will stray even further.

I am one of several on the AAKP Medical Advisory Board who are much in support of improved dialysis outcome and receive no support for our voluntary involvement.

https://www.aakp.org/about/medical-advisory-board.html

My involvement in a recent AAKP MAB teleconference led to a much different recommendation on the ACP/ASN screening guidelines. Although I hoped for a statement of outright support for the ASN position, the final document took a middle of the road approach but did note the dangers of misinterpreting the ACP guidelines in a primary care setting. If I was not involved, the document which will be released sometime soon would have looked very different.

Other board members who have publicly supported improved outcomes with more than just words include Chris Blagg, Tom Parker and Leslie Wong and several others. Once again, this is a voluntary position with no compensation. I am not sure at all what you are trying to imply about Bill.

Perhaps returning to the OP would be more productive.

Have a great night, but keep the popcorn close.

[Hemodoc]

Well, yes, in one sense since I am usually the object of the personal attacks, that is true and I pretty much only post in the political sections which engender these personal attacks, but causation? I certainly didn't start or condone the personal attacks on this thread against you.

It wasn't clear that I was teasing MM about her participation correlating to threads straying? Or are you being ironic?

Sorry, I thought it was coming at me. Just call me hypothermic in Idaho I guess. Have a great night Bill.

[MooseMom]

I cannot take the credit for the way this particular thread has strayed! 

[Hemodoc]

I cannot take the credit for the way this particular thread has strayed! 

I think you foreshadowed the predilection of obtuse angles it has taken for sure MM. In any case, I went back and read through EVERY post on this thread. It is simply the most bizarre thread I have yet seen on IHD and there have been many bizarre threads. It doesn't end here for some reason:

https://www.facebook.com/DialysisAdvocates

No wonder we get no where in the dialysis advocacy circles. We just shoot each other instead of working together against CMS and the LDO's. I had thought that perhaps NxStage had sponsored Bill's trips down the rivers, but I asked him and was quite surprised to hear he did it on his own. NxStage benefited greatly from his independent action. And if Bill had been sponsored, so what given the benefit not only to NxStage to but to all on home hemodialysis. He would have deserved that support.

If Bill has gained any notoriety, good for him, he deserves it for all that he has done. I know Bill suffered physically from all of his travels representing dialysis patients and was not at all enriched.  I am saddened to see such attacks in the dialysis advocacy groups. It is not helpful and only augments those who are the true enemies.

Lastly, we are stuck dealing with the devil as dialysis patients since the LDO's dominate the marketplace and work closely with CMS. They will also be the source of any future technological developments which are our only real hope of overcoming our current state of affairs in the US. We have NO CHOICE but to work with the LDO's in some manner or another. It cannot be avoided no matter how distasteful that sounds.

If we remain divided and fighting over the most trivial false allegations, what shall any of us accomplish? Wow, this thread tells us one of the reasons why the LDO's and CMS walk all over us. There are so few of us on dialysis who speak up at all. If we shoot our own foot, we have no ammo for the real fight at hand. I have seen this likewise with other advocates seeking their own pre-eminence. This does no bode well at all.

[MooseMom]

"Bizarre" is the right description, Hemodoc.  I am still trying to work out who Arlene is. 

[MooseMom]

At the risk of further straying, I would like to thank you, Hemodoc, and Bill for all of your efforts in the arena of patient advocacy.  If my gratitude is naive or misplaced, as I am sure some may claim, so be it.

[Hemodoc]

"Bizarre" is the right description, Hemodoc.  I am still trying to work out who Arlene is. 

Arlene Mullins of Dialysis Ethics. She was a nurse in the industry for years and then went into advocacy as she saw conditions deteriorate. She has a heart for patients and continues to intervene on a regular basis for people who are discharged involuntarily. In addition, she was directly involved in FMC stopping re-use of their artificial kidneys. She has much to offer to dialysis patients.

Plugger keeps going back to the 5280 article and the interview. Bill, Arlene and I were all interviewed and quoted in the Denver magazine article with Luc Hatlestad.

http://www.5280.com/magazine/2012/09/strangest-show-earth?page=0,0

The message of that well written expose of Kent Thiry from an advocacy point of view is that we were all united in our views of the industry. Why we are now engaging in this fratricide within our advocacy community befuddles me but I hope it just comes to an end. Bill, Arlene, Plugger, or any other advocate are not the enemy. If you need to be reminded on who the enemy is, just read the article again. I would hope we can all publicly and privately speak with the same voice we did in that article. Just sayin ya know.

Lastly, there was some sort of reference to Bill allegedly selling out transplant patients. If you look at the medical literature, the renal support groups, CMS, popular press, etc., renal transplant support by far is in the forefront of renal replacement therapy options even though it represents a small percentage of the ESRD population. Bill of course has focussed on dialysis issues since that is his modality and it is greatly under represented by any of the large patient groups. What is the problem with that?  That is also my main focus as well. Other than Shad Ireland, I don't know of any celebrity dialysis patients. Renal transplant has their Alonzo's and George Lopez's, but who do we have in the dialysis world who can gain the attention of the popular public?

If Bill in any manner fills that huge void, good for him. We need more like Bill getting the message out there to the public. Lastly, Bill is the most generous person I have ever met with sharing his notoriety. He had several people who were guest authors on his blog. For myself, he graciously introduced me to the  world of dialysis advocacy. Bill always gave me credit when any was due. Bill and I worked very close the first couple of years I blogged and he patiently tried, perhaps in vain, to teach me some writing skills. Your allegations of self aggrandizement are not the experiences I had with Bill.  There are many such people who Bill has selflessly helped over the years who can give such a testimony.

Once again, I would hope we could all gather together in the fight against the real enemies of optimal dialysis, it is not Bill, Plugger or Arlene.

[cariad]

Well noahvale/patdowns/munchmakutchi or what ever name you are going by today

Thank you, Bill, I have suspected this for quite some time. (OK, maybe I didn't realise he was a Stephen Colbert supporter!)

I don't have the stamina to read through all of this and try to suss out what everyone is trying to say, but I do know that Bill's posts here and on DSEN have been some of the most helpful and informative I've encountered. Not sure why you're suddenly under this ridiculous dog pile, Bill, but it will blow over soon enough. I have no doubt whose side you are on in the renal world.

[plugger]

Though I am sure some other group would be puffing up how bad dialysis is and telling reporters about dead patients stacked like cord wood, so I'd probably still be getting calls from reporters and having to clear things like that up 

cord wood: http://www.dialysisethics2.org/index.php/Our-Concerns/fact-sheet.html

If there are any more questions, problems, or complaints I suggest you go to the following: http://dialysisadvocates.com/patient-contact/

But I hope you understand how an answer might take awhile, things like dismissals take a priority.

And thank you HemoDoc for giving credit where credit is due.

[Bill Peckham]

So what's your point plugger? The biggest problem facing people who use dialysis is tech certification? Why are you, a urinator, coming on IHD trying to pick a fight with me? Someone who has no official role in the provision of dialysis other than my willingness to volunteer and of course my needing dialysis. Does everyone need to stop and pay attention to DE?

I think DE is filling a role but the exaggeration and playing loosely with quotes; the aggressive interpretation of what was unsaid, it all has consequences. Really you have nothing better to do but continue to grumble about discussion board posts 10 years ago or your 2007 Colorado legislative efforts? Plugger you said you were trying to be a nice guy in an earlier post - you know what a nice guy does? He doesn't say things about a person, he wouldn't say to that person. A nice guy keeps perspective. And nice guy thinks before he writes shit on the internet.