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Author Topic: How do you let go? (Not having kids; dialysis or tx)  (Read 349 times)
UkrainianTracksuit
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« on: November 12, 2019, 12:26:49 PM »

I don’t know where to post this as it COULD matter to dialysis patients and it also matters to transplant patients. 

So, as the title says, how do you come to terms with having to let go of a “dream”, “goal” or “aspiration?” Suggestions?

Like for real, I know that since we want people to think renal patients can do anything, we often emphasize that we live normally as possible, but this dumb disease DOES prevent certain aspects of life, for certain people...

Please don’t take this rudely, but many renal patients I encounter had many years to have their kids before the disease took hold. Obviously, since I’ve been dealing with his crap (or other illness) since I was born, I was always told it would be high risk and to avoid pregnancy altogether.

Then, once I got the transplant, I was advised how all these women have gone on to have healthy babies, so it is possible. The surgeon that still covers my care told me that we’d visit the question a year post-transplant, however, I had some (small) rejection issues (got treated) and then we’d reassess.

We had the reassessment lately and I’ve been advised that it isn’t a good idea to have a kid at all. He noted that there have been successful cases but they were typically premature and underweight. The major concern is that my virus status for EBV and CMV are unstable. Just got over another round of Valcyte because my load was on the increase. If that happened during pregnancy, the baby would face some awful lethal complications.

I mean, it wasn’t like I went into that appointment with bags of hope, but it was like a big door closed. As well, I (as the patient) or we (as the couple) weren’t provided with suitable support after, not like that is a specialist’s job, but in regard to the social work team.

We booked an appointment with a relationship counsellor. I mean, it was okay, but still, no pathway to closure, because I don’t think she had the experience/knowledge of this issue in regard to health impediments. It was general advice to focus on us and find ways to “parent” or “mentor” kids in other ways.

Adoption isn’t easy either if a prospective parent has an organ disease. I mean, I totally understand that because when one becomes responsible for a child, especially one that the system hopes to ensure in a good home, you have to be there for him/her, not become incapacitated to care for a child. Especially with my track record of knocking on the Grim Reaper's door! We can adopt from a relatable country, so, that is our next step of investigation, but not completely sold on it.

Our religion says no to surrogacy.

Some people around us are Western liberal democratic minds, so they say, “I chose not to have kids” or “lots of couples don’t have kids.” That clashes with the voices at home that say, “Couples without children are unhappier and often end in divorce.” or really emphasize the notion that a woman’s happiness rests on marriage and kids, not a career and stuff like that.

I know I’m just repeating myself because this stuff has been brought up in the past. My husband is healthy as an ox, no glaring red flags on his genetic testing (mine oddly too..so, I am an anomaly) and an athlete. He knew if he married me stuff like kids could be out of the picture and he accepted it, at least at the time. At his age, guys now collectively seemed to change to emphasizing “family and kids are the most important things in life!” from girls and sports. They matured.

But the way we were raised just keeps popping up and all those messages/feelings come back. Now I have to really close that door and let it go. But how? When you faced a certain situation, what worked for you?

I am obviously not okay with it emotionally though I have accepted it rationally. Miracles do happen but I’m not counting on it! Thanks to my wonderful disgruntled organs, I get to delve into deep parts of my soul. That is one positive, I guess.
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MooseMom
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2019, 07:54:52 AM »

I've read your post several times, and you know I read all of your posts with great interest.  I keep coming back to the same conclusion, that so much of your mindset is shaped around the expectations of others.  Your religion, your family, your culture, the "Western liberal" ideas, and most of all, your husband.

It is not always possible to escape those particular tides of thought and opinion, especially when there is a spanner in the works like chronic illness.  I find it particularly sad that in your case, it seems that your religion, your family, your culture, the "Western liberal" ideas, and your husband have not been able to give you clearer guidance, support, and a soft place to land.

Where is the value in your life, your very survival?  Why is your religion, your family, your culture, etc valuing having a child over your own life on this earth? 

I'd also like to know if your religion, your family, your culture and your husband would adequately care for your child should you in fact become pregnant but should give birth to a baby with all sorts of health concerns.  Would your husband be happy with that?  You've often told us that he couches his value, his place in his culture, and his place on the "man pyramid" on having a child; do I have that right?  (Please tell me if I've misconstrued anything.)  So, what would happen to his self-esteem if he were to have a disabled child?  Would he blame you for that?

Many years ago when my own child was having developmental difficulties, I worked in an organization that provided support to parents of children with all manner of disabilities.  I observed that more than one father, upon seeing his child struggle with a disability, simply left.  That was especially true if the child was a son.  Many men see their children, especially their sons, as a reflection of themselves, so they find it particular difficult if that reflection is somehow broken.  How do you think your husband would react to having a severely disabled child?  Of course, it is not a certainty that a woman with a transplant would give birth to a disabled child, but it is something we must seriously think about.

Your religion says "no" to surrogacy?  Again, is this more important to you and your husband than the chance to have a child?  Am I to interpret this as "God has a plan for you, and this is His way of telling you that you are not to bear a child"? So, God says that if you are one religion, then it's OK, but He says that if you worship Him this particular fashion, then it is not?  I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but is it really God saying "no", or is it a group of people from the past making a random decision?

I'm curious...what would happen if you and your husband were to disobey?

And how about YOU?  Do you have to make a decision right now?  Have you consulted a fertility specialist?  How difficult do you think it would be for you to conceive in the first place?  If you had a supportive family, culture and husband, what would you choose for yourself?  How much of a risk to your own health are you willing to take? 

As usual, I have many, many more questions than answers.  And, as usual, the questions are not really for my own benefit, rather, they are queries for you to think about to help you sort out your thoughts.

Good luck to you, and let us know your further ideas on the subject.
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UkrainianTracksuit
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2019, 11:40:47 AM »

Hey MooseMom,



Always great to read your thoughts because you do give them such deep consideration. :flower;

Like I said, rationally, I am okay with the results of the reassessment. It is just emotionally letting go of the whole ordeal, you know? My mind is fine with it, but my heart is just in another dimension, if that makes sense. Not sure if this is a 5 Stages of Grief thing... or trying to reimagine my role as a woman. Chronic illness puts a big slap on that too!

I know it is NOT the same for all people as many have gone on to have healthy kids (on dialysis and with tx), but there has to be someone who found a way to be emotionally okay with closing this chapter of life.

To be honest, my husband is pretty okay with the results of this reassessment. He has reached the point of “it is what it is” as he said he had a lot of time to prepare for that conclusion. He wasn’t expecting a green light nor for it to be easy if so. The higher risk of having a disabled child further puts him off because he said he would worry about ensuring its care when/if we reach to be senior citizens and eventually die. He’s also aware that children born healthy end up having awful health conditions and he worries about bullying of kids today.

I really just wish that the people that non-stop go on and on about their families would stop rubbing it in to him though. Not like he’d change his mind or take it out on me, but it must blow to hear it all the time. They have always been confused on his spousal choice anyway!  :lol;

My family is fine without me having kids because they know the situation. They are just more worried what is going to happen to family heirlooms or photos that have no place to go. To be honest, I worry about that too!  :o

As for religion, it is obviously the interpretation of man rather than the actual word of a higher power. Unless it is on Ancient Aliens (maybe it was!), I doubt that any theologian of the past could wrap their head around surrogacy today. So, it comes down to messing with nature and the natural creation process. If we disobeyed, I’m sure we’d be nagged to death about the awful thing we did.

Both our fertility and genetic testing results were okay/no red flags. Obviously, I would have loved to have a kid, as I have that maternal instinct (at least that is what I think it feels like!). But that door is closed now, so I just need to come to terms with it, but not really provided with any avenues how. Maybe it just takes time.
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MooseMom
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2019, 01:55:02 PM »

Let me see if I have understood the nature of the problem here.  I am thinking that the problem isn't so much that you are a kidney transplant patient, rather, it is more specific than that.  The problem is your viral load level and the drugs you have to take to keep that load under control.  Is that right?

All of those recipients that they've told you went on to have healthy babies?  How many of them had unstable viral loads levels?

The difficulties you are experiencing with CMV and EBV...does your tx team expect this problem to be ongoing?

Do you think it would be worth getting a second opinion, or could you maybe speak with a consultant ob-gyn?  I would be very interested in seeing what an ob-gyn would have to say.

I do not know if my son will ever marry.  I don't think I will ever be a grandmother (and almost all of my friends are becoming grandmas, so this hurts me), so I actually do understand that idea that you might not have anyone to whom you can give family heirlooms, silly as that might seem.  But I think it is human nature to want to pass on our history, and not being able to do so can be painful.  I look around at all of the things I've loved and would like to pass on, but that's not really possible for me, so I understand that feeling of loss.  I don't know if you ever get over it entirely.  You can "come to terms" with it, and "it is what it is", but it's still sad and painful. 

If there was only one successful avenue, we'd probably already know what that avenue would be.  But that would be too easy, wouldn't it.

I am glad your husband and your family understand the situation.  I'm sure they love you and want you to be happy AND healthy.

As for surrogacy "messing with nature", well, couldn't the same be said for transplant?  I mean, the organs of a dead person have been put into you to save your life, so I'm not sure where one draws the line.  Perhaps "creation of life" is treated differently from "preservation of life", but that is a matter for each person to decide for herself.  But I am curious...if your religion was not an obstacle to this choice, do you think surrogacy would be something you'd seriously consider?

I am sorry you have to go through this.  I know it is painful, and I wish my magic wand was working so that you could be spared this dilemma.  But when all is said and done, I'm just glad you're alive.



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"Eggs are so inadequate, don't you think?  I mean, they ought to be able to become anything, but instead you always get a chicken.  Or a duck.  Or whatever they're programmed to be.  You never get anything interesting, like regret, or the middle of last week."
UkrainianTracksuit
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2019, 04:21:58 PM »

Okay, wow, thank you for that last sentence. It is not often I hear that. Wow.

Yes, right on, MooseMom. These days, immunesuppressants can be adjusted for pregnancy just as doctors can monitor the odd instances when a dialysis patient gets pregnant. The viral load is the main issue and infectious disease is following it closely. My immunosuppressives can’t really be dropped any lower to let my immune system do its thing without the risk of rejection. As well, the team aren’t too sure about the cause (besides the original issue of a donor cross match and my lack of immunity) but my cortisol is elevated, so my immune system could be taking a hit from general stress (mainly work related). It is SO very important to take general care of ourselves (low stress, good sleep, healthy diet) when dealing with CKD. Valcyte isn’t the best of drugs to use long-term (as you obviously know) either.

So, they’re concerned if I have a blip like this while pregnant, some awful deformities would happen, like an abnormally small head. Unless, I have a nice stable period, but then that enters early time of a geriatric pregnancy. The transplant team has mostly dealt with only kidney transplant pregnancy but not really kidney-pancreas, though studies show it’s been successful. They have guided women through the whole process, but the patients had prior immunity to CMV and EBV.

I’m lucky to have an ob-gyn that I like a lot now. She hooked me up with suitable birth control methods. I’ll get her insight at my next appointment.

You hit the nail on the head about wanting to pass on our history. Well, my family DID pass on their history to me — renal failure! My cousin recently had a kidney transplant too, but he’s a guy, so a bit easier in the reproductive department. And you’re right that it pretty much comes down to human nature to want to share the best aspects of ourselves in a next generation.

The grandmother thing is especially hard because that’s what my mom is dealing with in her circles too. Though I know you are logical, bright and a good role model here, it must still cause a few pangs in the heart.

Organ transplant is also a delicate topic in the faith too. Some are vehemently against it, while others see it as a gift of kindness.

To be honest, I haven’t given a lot of thought to surrogacy since I knew it was verboten. It’s been in the news a lot because of Kim Kardashian and Sergey Lazarev. The media mocked him saying that he forgot how to have kids normally.

Not sure how comfortable I feel about it, but that could come from hours of Lifetime movies on dialysis. It would require an immense amount of trust.

And that reminds me, please let me avoid dialysis for a long time to avoid such TV movies.
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GA_DAWG
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2019, 06:12:26 PM »

Ukrainian Tracksuit, I have always thought of religion as something to bring comfort and peace of mind to my life, not as something that is judgmental or somehow as God punishing someone. Even this disease, I suppose has a reason for happening. I know that I have been available to help people more than I would if I were still working 60-70 hour weeks, especially my very aged parents. I see some of these more cultish religions that make claims just opposite of what the Bible itself has, and wonder why people follow them. I think no reputable religion should judge you in any way if you are unable to have a child. I would contend that if god did not have in  ind to help us, why would he have given the gift of transplants, surrogacy, adoption or IVF? Don't worry what OTHER people want or expect. Some avenues maybe closed to you, bt others open if you decide they are right for YOU and your HUSBAND. I understand that you are very emotional right now, but when that passes, from everything you have posted here on IHD, you are an extremely intelligent person, capable of reasoning out what is best for you and your husband, and it sounds like he is ready to offer any support he can. Allow him to, make sure you see it as a decision with effects on BOTH of you. Don't shut him out, discuss it  with him as many times as you need. In the end, it is only uou and he who can make this choice, hopefully with the help of a clergyman dedicated to helping his parioshioners or congregation, not leaving them feeling worse about themselves.
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MooseMom
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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2019, 08:23:58 PM »

I've been thinking about your posts all day, UT.  It strikes me that many times, grief is compounded by the fact that we don't always get to make choices, and we don't always get to have even a modicum of control. 

Ultimately, you have the opportunity to make some choices here and to claw back some control over your life.  Just because your team has never guided a woman in your exact position through a healthy pregnancy ending in the birth of a healthy child doesn't mean it cannot be done.  Ever.  What you can do is talk to as many people as possible who can give you the most information possible, and then you and your husband can decide what you want, which risks you are willing to take and which you are not.

If you are presented with more facts and more information from more doctors, perhaps you will feel more comfortable, and more in control, with the decisions you make.  That feeling of getting to make an informed choice might make you feel stronger.  Having a decision foisted upon you, even if it is the wiser choice, can be very frustrating.

I have not thought a lot about surrogacy, so I'm not pushing that idea one way or the other.  I do not think I would have been comfortable having a child that was biologically my husband's but not mine.  Upon thinking about it, I don't think I'd have a problem with having a surrogate who would give me such a gift as giving my growing baby a home for a short while if that baby was genetically mine.  Does that make sense?  Does CMV/EBV and/or the meds have any impact on the genetic quality of your eggs?  Again, I'm not pushing the idea, but as I think about it, I am becoming very curious!  Sorry.  My mind tends to run off on all sorts of tangents! 

I've never seen a Lifetime movie, but I can see where one would really mess with your head!

Anyway, I guess my point is that whichever decision is made, make sure it is YOUR decision.  Yours and your husband's. 

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"Eggs are so inadequate, don't you think?  I mean, they ought to be able to become anything, but instead you always get a chicken.  Or a duck.  Or whatever they're programmed to be.  You never get anything interesting, like regret, or the middle of last week."
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2019, 01:23:26 AM »

I don’t know where to post this as it COULD matter to dialysis patients and it also matters to transplant patients. 

So, as the title says, how do you come to terms with having to let go of a “dream”, “goal” or “aspiration?” Suggestions?

Like for real, I know that since we want people to think renal patients can do anything, we often emphasize that we live normally as possible, but this dumb disease DOES prevent certain aspects of life, for certain people...

Please don’t take this rudely, but many renal patients I encounter had many years to have their kids before the disease took hold. Obviously, since I’ve been dealing with his crap (or other illness) since I was born, I was always told it would be high risk and to avoid pregnancy altogether.

Then, once I got the transplant, I was advised how all these women have gone on to have healthy babies, so it is possible. The surgeon that still covers my care told me that we’d visit the question a year post-transplant, however, I had some (small) rejection issues (got treated) and then we’d reassess.

We had the reassessment lately and I’ve been advised that it isn’t a good idea to have a kid at all. He noted that there have been successful cases but they were typically premature and underweight. The major concern is that my virus status for EBV and CMV are unstable. Just got over another round of Valcyte because my load was on the increase. If that happened during pregnancy, the baby would face some awful lethal complications.

I mean, it wasn’t like I went into that appointment with bags of hope, but it was like a big door closed. As well, I (as the patient) or we (as the couple) weren’t provided with suitable support after, not like that is a specialist’s job, but in regard to the social work team.

We booked an appointment with a relationship counsellor. I mean, it was okay, but still, no pathway to closure, because I don’t think she had the experience/knowledge of this issue in regard to health impediments. It was general advice to focus on us and find ways to “parent” or “mentor” kids in other ways.

Adoption isn’t easy either if a prospective parent has an organ disease. I mean, I totally understand that because when one becomes responsible for a child, especially one that the system hopes to ensure in a good home, you have to be there for him/her, not become incapacitated to care for a child. Especially with my track record of knocking on the Grim Reaper's door! We can adopt from a relatable country, so, that is our next step of investigation, but not completely sold on it.

Our religion says no to surrogacy.

Some people around us are Western liberal democratic minds, so they say, “I chose not to have kids” or “lots of couples don’t have kids.” That clashes with the voices at home that say, “Couples without children are unhappier and often end in divorce.” or really emphasize the notion that a woman’s happiness rests on marriage and kids, not a career and stuff like that.

I know I’m just repeating myself because this stuff has been brought up in the past. My husband is healthy as an ox, no glaring red flags on his genetic testing (mine oddly too..so, I am an anomaly) and an athlete. He knew if he married me stuff like kids could be out of the picture and he accepted it, at least at the time. At his age, guys now collectively seemed to change to emphasizing “family and kids are the most important things in life!” from girls and sports. They matured.

But the way we were raised just keeps popping up and all those messages/feelings come back. Now I have to really close that door and let it go. But how? When you faced a certain situation, what worked for you?

I am obviously not okay with it emotionally though I have accepted it rationally. Miracles do happen but I’m not counting on it! Thanks to my wonderful disgruntled organs, I get to delve into deep parts of my soul. That is one positive, I guess.

Dear UT, reading your thoughts touched me very much and perhaps it might be a good idea if you and your husband could talk to parents of a child who was born handicapped as a result of kidney-matters affecting one or both of the parents?
Mind you, you and your husband could be the lucky exception, but what, if you had a handicapped child after being warned about the risks by your doctor and going ahead with a pregnancy nevertheless?
What about your own health during a pregnancy? Could your body withstand it?
Another important point to consider is the fact that you have had a kidney-transplant, so the DNA of your kidney-donor could also play a part in this as well? How well do you know your kidney-donor?
The thought about all this is very difficult, of course and it is also not easy to face, but these days many medics have fortunately become unceremoniously outspoken about this matter and “lay it very honestly on the line”, so to speak.
I wish you and your husband lots of strengths and lots of luck with your decision and I send you my best wishes from Kristina. :grouphug;
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UkrainianTracksuit
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2019, 05:56:23 AM »

Hi kristina, thanks for your kind message.

I am not even sure where I would find such a couple to discuss such matters. For the most part, tx pregnancy is undoubtedly high risk, but many have gone on to have pretty normal kids. All the transplant information supplied by the clinic says it is possible, but requires extensive monitoring.

I am actually very healthy despite the transplant. I would probably be healthier if I didn’t have a high stress job right now (lack of sleep, long hours, deadlines).

You’re right that I don’t know much at all about my deceased donor, besides that they were low risk and young. That said, their DNA would not impact a future child, as the DNA for procreation comes from gametes, which are distinct and unaffected by organ tx.

All of that said, yes, I agree it is best to heed the advice of learned specialists. My focus here was how to emotionally let go/be okay/have closure instead of being adamant on having a kid no matter what.

Rationally, I’ve accepted that won’t happen. My brain accepts it, my heart is another story, but it will get there!

MooseMom, you’re right that a lot of this comes from a lack of control or a real inability to make decisions. In a perfect world, it would be terrific if basically healthy people or those that don’t struggle in this area realized the luxury of choice. As much as I’ve tried to gain back some control in my life, biology likes to stop me in my tracks from time to time.

You are correct in that all I can do right now is gather information and talk with specialists. Perhaps in a little while, but right now, I just want to “be okay” no matter the outcome.

As my husband has matured and priorities changed, I’ve even gone so far as to offer an amicable divorce, if he was set on family life. Obviously, he said no and we’d work through it.

As for my eggs, I’ve not been told about viruses affecting them, and as it currently stands, I’ve still got (what looks to be) good ones. Bawk bawk!  :laugh:

GA DAWG, I agree so much with your post. Faith should be a source of comfort, rather than anxiety, but it has not been kind to me recently. The more that the “culture of death” narrative is pushed, the more steadfast they get on life. And heaven forbid if you are deemed a modernist, or even talk about some basic scientific fact. For example, there is a fringe element of anti-vaxxers. Like, I just can’t some days.

It’s also true the situations we end up in open other doors, such as your enhanced availability to help people, especially your aged parents. This condition enabled me to be there for my grandfather, as he did dialysis into his 90s. We’ll always have that connection and quiet understanding, though he’s no longer with us. I’m sure had I been healthy at the time, I wouldn’t have devoted as much as I did to him. (Although I was pushed to make my own life.)

And yeah, throughout all this, I have to actively make sure not to shut my husband out, as I tend to do sometimes. Often, I feel like he doesn’t understand (because he’s healthy). It usually starts off with me saying he got where he is today primarily because he’s a workhorse and made decisions accordingly, not that nagging reminder.

Just want to say thanks to all that there’s a place to talk about this.  :thumbup; :thx;
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enginist
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2019, 01:36:51 PM »

And then there is the moral question.  I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, but bringing a child into a world that seems to be deteriorating may be irresponsible.  The many problems that we face, from climate change to drug-resistant pathogens, are what they call existential threats, and no one is immune to them.  Maybe this thought, as grim as it is, will help you to let go.
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2019, 07:11:27 PM »

enginist, I have come to exactly the opposite conclusion. It seems abundantly clear to me that our generation and the one right after, is incapable of solving any of the problems we face. I DO hate kicking the problems down the road to them, but just maybe they can learn from ur mistakes and actually do smething to make life better.
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enginist
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2019, 11:40:56 AM »

There's not enough time.  Frankly, I'm glad I won't be around when it all goes to hell.
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kristina
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2019, 02:26:26 PM »

There's not enough time.  Frankly, I'm glad I won't be around when it all goes to hell.

I beg to differ because it is my opinion that we are living in a very lucky time! Dialysis has become much more developed and therefore made much more bearable for our body and kidney-transplants are also going very well, so there are no complaints ... If we were living during any other time we would not even be alive anymore because of ESRF, let alone have a chance to hope for a kidney-transplant...
And then there is music ... any other time we would have had to be extremely rich to have our own orchestra to enjoy the privilege of listening to music at all ... whereas these days we have our own collection of LP's, CD's, Radio etc. and all we have to do is to switch it on etc.
Furthermore, if we come up with an interesting idea or new invention, all we have to do is to switch on the computer and check up whether or not this idea has already been thought out or not.
Our health services are extremely well developed as well these days and doctors have become very dedicated ... in any other century we would not have been that lucky at all and doctors would not know what to do for us in ESRF, in fact, they would not even had a chance to diagnose...
Then there are all these Museums which are free for us to visit, Libraries are free (thanks to Mr. Carnegie) and we can borrow from the Library any book we fancy to read...
We are also lucky with transport-possibilities these days ... For example Mozart had to sit in a small carriage for many weeks to get from A to B, whereas with our transport possibilities these days it is only a question of hours.
Sanitary possibilities are also so much better in comparison to other centuries.
That is just all that springs to mind and I can't see anything wrong with it and I am very grateful.
Mind you, I am well known as a "chronic optimist" ... :grouphug;
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Bach was no pioneer; his style was not influenced by any past or contemporary century.
  He was completion and fulfillment in itself, like a meteor which follows its own path.
                                        -   Robert Schumann  -

                                          ...  Oportet Vivere ...
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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2019, 04:15:20 PM »

Yes, of course, Katrina, there are many things that make life worth living, but I am not referring to any of those.  I am referring to the things that make life not worth living, such as natural and man-made disasters, widespread famine and disease, and the complete breakdown of the social order.  If just one of the projected calamities occurs--specifically, the failure of the power grid--there will be no electricity for radios, CD players, subway trains, museums, libraries, hospitals, or dialysis centers.  A case of chronic pessimism?  I devoutly wish that it were so. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 10:48:31 PM by enginist » Logged
kristina
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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2019, 02:33:03 AM »

Hello enginist,
This is difficult to answer, because on one side you are right with your observation that there are many man-made and natural disasters, famine and disease and you are also right about social order not being how it really should or could be.
... And very often we can observe evil people succeeding (not only politically), whilst good people are often being oppressed etc., even supposedly democratic voting polls are being "played around with" etc. etc.
But I still believe that life is still worth living despite all that and, to put the balance straight, there are still so many good and interesting "things" that have not been discovered yet and I look forward to their discovery.
Mind you, I completely understand where you are coming from ...  but I still believe in a good balance somewhere between plus and minus, despite the fact that at times it really becomes a bit difficult to see ...  :grouphug;
Best wishes from Kristina.
P.S. Ii is very noticeable that over the years/centuries there was often a destructive element being observed, but at the same time "they" would not go ahead with complete destruction because, after all, "they" would not like to see their own destruction, would they?
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Bach was no pioneer; his style was not influenced by any past or contemporary century.
  He was completion and fulfillment in itself, like a meteor which follows its own path.
                                        -   Robert Schumann  -

                                          ...  Oportet Vivere ...
Michael Murphy
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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2019, 08:37:21 AM »

My life was filled with disappointment, my first love died, when I was 27 I met the next love of my life I spent the next 13 years chasing a women who would come back and then leave repeatable over 13 years. Finally at 42 I met my current wife 26 years later we are still together.  What has carried me through my life is the knowledge that what will be will be.
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Alexysis
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« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2019, 04:56:46 PM »

Well, keep in mind that just 75 years ago, you would've had only 2 choices: pay for dialysis out of your own pocket (rarely with good results over time), or just decide to die. Yeah, we've all been dealt a bad hand with our kidneys, so we have to make the best with what we are given.
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Charlie B53
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« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2019, 07:46:31 AM »


I am unable to support organized Religion.  Most Churches have heavily edited the Bible to reflect what the Church wants us to Believe, not necessariloy what was originally written.  I search for Lost Books.  I have amassed a lot.

I am not aware of any writings that would prevent a Surrogate.

When Sarah was barren she sent her Hand Maiden in to Abraham so he could father a Son.

Your eggs can be harvested, fertilized by your Husband, and implanted, grown, and born by a Surrogate.  This would be YOUR Biological Child.

If there is Ancient Biblical Writings that bar this Please direct me to it.

There are many couples that do not have children, whatever the reason, whether it be medical or simply no desire to procreate.  Thge lack of children is not necessarily the cause for a Loving Couple to separate.  Much the same when a couple loses a child, far too many cannot withstand the strain and separate.  It takes serious commitment to Marriage to remain together.

Sadly, no onoe else can make any of these decisions for you.  Communication with youro Husband is critical and you both must gain as much information as possible before making a commitment either way.

Which ever decision you both make will be the correct one for you both as long as it is mutual.

Take Care,

Charlie B53
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Simon Dog
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« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2019, 03:20:20 PM »

Well, keep in mind that just 75 years ago, you would've had only 2 choices: pay for dialysis out of your own pocket (rarely with good results over time), or just decide to die. Yeah, we've all been dealt a bad hand with our kidneys, so we have to make the best with what we are given.
The Seattle death panel was in business in 1961; 58 years ago.

Being able to pay the then $10k/year fee only made you eligible to apply to the god panel for a slot in the schedule.  The vast majority were turned down.
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I am unable to support organized Religion.
To me it is simpler.  Either a corpse was resurrected and consciousness survives death or neither of these things happened.  I am of the belief that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.  It is not reasonable to believe a teapot orbits the sun between earth and mars, and to claim your belief should be accepted as truth unless and until someone conclusively proves there is no such teapot.  (google Russell's Teapot).

If the corpse did not resurrect and consciousness does not survive death, all flavors of the christian religion are hooey.  The "faith" argument is like the psychic who explains her powers are very real, but simply do not work in the presence of skeptics or non-believers.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 03:24:20 PM by Simon Dog » Logged
UkrainianTracksuit
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« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2019, 07:19:45 PM »

Like for real, I didn't post or ask this question for this to turn into a bashing of faith or a debate about it. It doesn't add anything positive nor beneficial to the discussion.

I had hoped a woman experienced some similar feelings in the past in her life. Guess not...

Talking about death panels and so on might be useful discussion for you, but at least have some tact and empathy on a topic such as this. People can have all the knowledge in the world but without using it tactfully, it is just in bad taste.
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MooseMom
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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2019, 07:47:51 PM »

Thanks, UT, for getting things back on track.

I was in the hospital for a total of 6 weeks during/after my pregnancy.  I had pre-eclampsia.  After I had my baby, I still was spilling a LOT of protein.

When my baby was 6 months old, I had a kidney biopsy, and that's when I found out I had fsgs.

I was told that I should not have any more children.  I was an only child myself, and I wanted to have more children so that my baby would not be an only child.  I decided that the baby I did have deserved a healthy mother and that my wishes for more children were selfish.

I decided to give up my career, a job that I loved, to stay home to be a mom.  I decided since this would be my only child, then I should make the most of it, and financially I was lucky enough to be able to pull it off.

Several years later, my baby got a diagnosis of autism.

I don't know if I had poor renal quality at the time of my pregnancy.  If so, maybe that caused the autism?  Or did the pregnancy result in renal damage?  I don't know.  I'll never know.  But all my dreams for my baby were gone.  It was a devastating loss, and all of these years later, I still feel it.

Loss comes in many guises.

I'd dreamed of having wonderful little discussions with my child.  My child was four years old before I heard the words, "I love you."  I had to watch my child be bullied and laughed at.  And my baby was so incredibly beautiful.  I mean, people would stop me in the street to look upon that face.

I know that my experience in this regard is not exactly like yours, and we are not here to compare losses.  But you asked if kidney issues had ever resulted in painful feelings of loss in any of us, and my answer is yes, oh yes.
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"Eggs are so inadequate, don't you think?  I mean, they ought to be able to become anything, but instead you always get a chicken.  Or a duck.  Or whatever they're programmed to be.  You never get anything interesting, like regret, or the middle of last week."
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