Nurses and Techs drinking

[MooseMom]

Am I just weird or something?  If I knew that someone had, say, developed an allergy to something they really liked and couldn't eat it anymore, I wouldn't dream of sitting there and eating it front of them (that's assuming, of course, that this person had explained the situation to me.  I am not clairvoyant.)  Maybe I'll just stop giving a s**t about other people's feelings; it'd make my life a lot easier.

[Riki]

Riki, do your friends know that you have to avoid chocolate, and do they understand exactly why?  Do they understand what high serum phosphorus does to your body?

They don't understand all the ins and outs, but they understand that it isn't good for me, and they know that it's dialysis related.  I've been dealing with this for 20 years.  When I was a kid, it bothered me, but now it seems rather silly to be offended over what someone else decides to eat.  I don't really deprive myself either.  I don't see it being a big deal to treat myself occasionally.  I have a little bit, maybe once or twice a year.

I just think that we have bigger things to worry about than what someone else decides to eat or drink in front of us

[Marina]

My nurses drink water, or coffee or tea at the desk.  They don't carry it around or anything like that.  They also have a break room for them to eat their meals. That being said, they do sometimes have a Tim Horton's coffee in their hand, but some of the patients do as well.  I've had an ice cap brought into me by a friend who was visiting, and another fellow brings a coffee and muffin with him every time he comes in.  I don't see it as a big deal.  We're not children.  Just because we have to restrict what we take in doesn't mean that the people around us should be deprived.  I love chocolate, but it is one of the renal no-nos, but it doesn't mean that if I go out with friends, and they decide to have chocolate cheesecake for dessert, I'm not going to take it as an insult.  It seems silly to me

 

[MooseMom]

I guess if you've been restricting your food/fluid intake for 20 years, you've gotten used to the whole palaver and don't care what other people eat or drink.  But if you are still new to all of this, you haven't had the time to gain the equilibrium that the pros have achieved, and watching your family gorge themselves on your favorite foods can still feel like a slap in the face as it is a constant, painful reminder of the seriousness of your condition and of the dark road down which you now travel.  Sharing food and drink has been a common human experience since the dawn of time, and to feel that suddenly you are left out of that can just add to the isolation that chronically ill people feel.  I'm sure as new renal/dialysis patients get more experienced with their suddenly upturned lives, they will eventually reach the same point as you and not care what other people are slamming down their throats.

I don't ever think it is silly to want to avoid making someone feel bad.

[Subeat]

I guess if you've been restricting your food/fluid intake for 20 years, you've gotten used to the whole palaver and don't care what other people eat or drink.  But if you are still new to all of this, you haven't had the time to gain the equilibrium that the pros have achieved, and watching your family gorge themselves on your favorite foods can still feel like a slap in the face as it is a constant, painful reminder of the seriousness of your condition and of the dark road down which you now travel.  Sharing food and drink has been a common human experience since the dawn of time, and to feel that suddenly you are left out of that can just add to the isolation that chronically ill people feel.  I'm sure as new renal/dialysis patients get more experienced with their suddenly upturned lives, they will eventually reach the same point as you and not care what other people are slamming down their throats.

I don't ever think it is silly to want to avoid making someone feel bad.

And see...I thought maybe the reason I didn't mind watching others enjoy what I can't have was because I am new to all these restrictions, and just hadn't built up a resentment over many years.    

Your words paint a very depressing picture MM, and I'm very thankful that I don't feel that way.  I don't feel left out of anything as of yet, and I expect my family to be very accommodating over the holidays.  Trust me, I have had some dark moments over the past couple of months, and tears have been shed over the changes that I have had to put in place.  But not one of my low points was related to what I can't eat.  I am very sorry it troubles anyone to the extent you described.

This has gotten me thinking though, and it makes me wonder if my attitude about the diet is related to watching my mother ignore her own diet restrictions for most of her life.  Mom would regularly end up in the ER with her blood sugar in the 400-500 range.  She had 2 strokes, and 2 heart attacks before the 3rd finally took her life.  But to the end, she would not give up her "treats."  She lived with us in her final years, and when we cleaned up her room we found multiple stashes of candy.  During one of out initial discussions of my new diet, my son's first comment was that I was going to "do better than Grandmother."  So, maybe seeing the results of someone ignoring the diet that would prolong their life gives me a little extra will power, and that helps me not be so sad.  Didn't mean to ramble so about this...just my thoughts falling out of my head.

[MooseMom]

Well, I guess we all have different responses.  What I resented about the diet wasn't so much that I couldn't have whatever I wanted, rather, I resented that I had to think about it at all.  I'd always eaten for health, and suddenly those healthy foods were more dangerous than not.  I am not an emotional eater, so I am not attached to specific foods; I don't eat out of depression or boredom or anxiety like a lot of other people do.  I know my husband would have real difficulties with the diet whereas I do not, really. 

But now that I understand what these bad foods will do to me, I have lost interest in them.  My diet is the one area in all of this I can control, so I personally am perfectly happy to exercise that control because I can't seem to control whatever the hell my kidneys are going to do next (fsgs).

But all you have to do is look at all of the threads on this forum posted by people who are frustrated by the restrictions and by what those restrictions symbolize.  It's one thing to decide to cut back on this or that, but to have these restrictions foisted upon you really upsets some people.  And as you've seen, still others are bothered by the lack of sensitivity shown by people who profess to love them and care about their happiness.  Just because you don't feel the same doesn't mean there is something "wrong" with the ones who DO feel that way.

You say, Subeat,  that you expect your family to be very accomodating over the holidays.  How do you define "accomodating"?  What if they are not as "accomodating" as you expect them to be?  Do you expect them to even ask you about your diet restrictions?  I'll be very interested to see just how easily you avoid a single moment of resentment if you discover that no one in your family has given a single thought to your special needs and that no "accomodation" was made.  Maybe you won't care, but maybe you will.

I think you are probably right, though, in that your relative ease in accepting these restrictions is related to how poorly your mother dealt with it.  You've seen first hand what can happen if you don't take care of yourself, and oh yeah, like I've said before, fear of ending up like that is a compelling reason to stick to the diet.

I've conquered the diet thing, but I do worry about how I will cope with restricting fluids.  I drink a lot of water during the day and always have, and I think this will be very difficult to curb.  My husband will knock back a half jug of juice in one sitting, so having to watch that spectacle while minding my own water intake is going to be a real challenge for me.

Keep rambling; I enjoy hearing your thoughts!

[jeannea]

I don't know. I guess I kind of go both ways on this.

When I was originally diagnosed 20 years ago, they were still putting everyone on the really low protein diet. After a lot of tears, I adjusted to it. I certainly couldn't ask my parents to give up protein, but my mother did help me count and gave me options for stuff to eat. If she had something that I really wanted but shouldn't eat, she would let me take a little taste of her portion. That was enough for me. I was a little jealous sometimes but never expected them to go low protein.

Now on dialysis, I really don't mind so much. If I'm at my mom's or my sister's, if they are eating hot dogs for instance, I just make something else like a fish patty. No big deal. I always get my mom a drink if she wants one. The only times I get nostalgic is my sister and her diet coke and my dad and his cocoa.

The thing that does bug me is the raw food washing. When I got my transplant they told me I had to wash all raw foods with soap and water before eating. My mom and my sister do it for me (and I help too). But my aunt looked at me and said "I would never do that" then proceded to spend weeks emailing my mother why she shouldn't either.

But I guess if it does bother you to see someone drinking then it does and your feelings are as real as mine.

[thegrammalady]

the one thing that seems to appear throughout all posts in this thread is "i can't eat"  it sounds like the dietitian i heard tell a patient's wife... "if he ever eats any cheese again, his phosphors will never go down!'  i remember reading in a thread when i first started on ihd that one person drank a gallon of milk a week and never had any problems. my last phos level was 3.9. i don't drink milk because i really don't care for it, but i do eat cheese, just not a lot of it, the key in any diet is moderation, the problem is many people is they have no idea what a "little" means.  now i admit, i'm lucky. because i'm on nocturnal, 7 hour runs, my diet is less restrictive and i just don't care what other people eat. and i learned a long time ago that when i say "i can't have or can't do" that's just what i want, so i try not to.

[MooseMom]

I certainly couldn't ask my parents to give up protein, but my mother did help me count and gave me options for stuff to eat..

Now see, this is what I mean.  This is a nice compromise.  You didn't ask for anyone to give up anything on your behalf, yet your mother accomodated you and helped you out.  She got to eat whatever she wanted, and you didn't feel ignored.  Everyone's happy.

But I guess if it does bother you to see someone drinking then it does and your feelings are as real as mine.

Exactly.  It doesn't bother me anymore to see my husband gorging on bananas, but it might bother someone else to see HER husband gorging on bananas, and this doesn't make me a saint and her a silly child.  Her feelings are just as real as mine, so jeannea, I think you are exactly right.

I think this is a fascinating conversation because it makes me think beyond the simple question of whether or not the diet is bothersome.  We could take a poll to see who is frustrated by seeing other people eat whatever they want and who is not frustrated.  But now my real question is what do you all think you would do if, say, you all got transplanted and had all restrictions removed and THEN came across a family member or friend who found themselves on dialysis and had the restrictions you once had?  What would you do if you had a meal out with that person?  Would you eat whatever you wanted and not say anything, would you remember your old restrictions and "show support" to your family member/friend and adhere to the restrictions so as not to risk making them feel bad, or would you discuss the dilemma with your dinner companion and give him/her a chance to voice their feelings?

[jeannea]

Good question MooseMom. If I had a transplant but went out with a friend on dialysis, I would let her choose where to go so that we knew there would be something she could eat. But I still think I would drink my glass of water with the meal. But I hope I would try to be sensitive and not go on and on about trying to drink enough to stay hydrated with a transplant.

[Subeat]

You say, Subeat,  that you expect your family to be very accommodating over the holidays.  How do you define "accommodating"?  What if they are not as "accommodating" as you expect them to be?  Do you expect them to even ask you about your diet restrictions?  I'll be very interested to see just how easily you avoid a single moment of resentment if you discover that no one in your family has given a single thought to your special needs and that no "accommodation" was made.  Maybe you won't care, but maybe you will.

To me, accommodating would simply mean that along with all the traditional stuff (that I will still be partaking of...in moderation), that there are choices that are kidney-friendly as well.  Since we tend to potluck these kind of meals, I would probably prepare something along those lines myself.  I don't expect that the dialyzing of potatoes would be a big deal to anyone, and that is the biggest "bad" food we traditionally have.  They ask about my restrictions already, so I don't expect that would change.  Honestly, I would be shocked if there was no thought given to me...that's just not how we work.  Also, we plan these meals together, organizing who brings what.  If no one else brought it up then, well, I would be kind of silly not to, wouldn't I?  I wouldn't set myself up that way.

Now, if no one cared if there was anything I could eat, sure I would be hurt.  I got irritated with my husband not long ago for suggesting a restaurant that didn't have much for me to choose from...he should know better.  But as long as I can order without any big issues, I really don't care what he eats.

FTR I don't think there is anything "wrong" with anyone that is bothered by this, I have simply been posting to say that we all don't feel that way.  Neither feeling is right or wrong, just different.

[MooseMom]

Terrific post, Subeat.  Thanks for that!

[tbarrett2533]

and I honestly don't care if someone eats "forbidden" food in front of me. 

Ditto!!

I look at it like its not their diet they got to follow, its mine, they are "normal" and really should be drinking plenty of fluids considering at my unit they all work 10 hour shifts...that's a super long time to go without eating/drinking and at my unit they also are almost always short staffed and well they got to eat too, so they do eat there (when short staffed) however when there is enough staff on they are not permitted to eat in the treatment room, they go to the break room.....
now on the other hand I am the girl in the chair (when I was doing in-center) who is rambling on and on about what foods you should eat and should not eat so you can bet that if someone is eating pizza in front of me they are going to hear about all of the negative health effects that it is having on their body!!!   
its a catch 22 with me 

[pagandialysis]

I'm in the chair right now and ALL the nurses are eating Drum Sticks!....evil!

[RichardMEL]

I missed this thread when it was originally going strong due to being in Vegas and all.

I just wanted to make a few general comments/thoughts about the eating/drinking in D - both by nurses and patients. Many views and experiences related here from many posters - *I* personally feel it all boils down to one key issue - and that's one of a sensitivity/respect and general good manners towards those around you - so by that I mean nurses/staff drinking in front of patients from large cups, or eating pizza etc in sight/smell of patients. By the same token, folks bringing in food that others can see or especually smell (it's much easier to look away than it is to close your nose!!) is inconsiderate to those around you  - let alone for those on fluid or diet restrictions - but just in general - not EVERYONE loves the smell of pizza in an enclosed environment - and let's not even consider how a vegetarian might feel if someone's chowing down on a roast chicken or something.

In my unit, our nurses were reasonably dicreet. Of course the setup helped a lot - the nurses station had large desks/shelvs where they could sit and not be in immediate view of patients and they could have a coffee or water. It's their workplace and they're entitlted to drink at their desks. They have a staff break room that is down a side corridor and thus any smells etc rarely would come through to the patient area. Of course staff would never carry food or drink around or near patients or machines for obvious reason - the only exceptions being the tea/coffee/snacks offered on the shift, and if there was a birthday or something else and we had a cake or something like that.

When I had food it would NEVER be something smelly. Typically I had a jar of peppermints or other candy on my table that everyone was free to take from (well everyone who could access it which basically was me and staff! LOL) and sometimes I had a sandwich/roll, but it would be something inoffensive to nostrils like Vegemite(don't laugh!) or cheese or turkey or something. I used to get pretty hungry on the machine.

People vaery rarely brought in hot/smelly food which was good. Sometimes an inpatient would have their lunch or dinner delivered from the ward, and sometimes even that hospital food would smell mighty fine from my chair!!!  but that wasn't their fault.

As I said above I really feel it comes down to consideration for others. Some people have it... or most do.. and some do not - sadly.

[MooseMom]

Well said, Richard.  Consideration for others!

[jbeany]

That's certainly a very effective credo to live by, and more power to you!  But I don't think it is unfathomable to expect better behaviour from dialysis staff.  If you were having dinner with someone who you knew was struggling with giving up alcohol, would you order cocktails and wine for yourself knowing that your dinner companion might possibly just love to drink, too?

If they are giving up alcohol due to addiction then no, I would not drink in front of them.  To me, that is a very different situation.  I miss cheese probably more than anything else...gooey, yummy mounds of the stuff...but it is not the same as being addicted.  And I won't compare my Diet Coke addiction to alcoholism either...apples and oranges.

I still see this, whether it's food or alcohol or diet restrictions, as an issue of personal responsibility.  I don't expect anyone else to make accommodations for my problems with food.  Even the alcohol at dinner is a tough one for me.  Yes, if it was a one on one meal with someone I knew was struggling, I'd skip alcohol. (In theory, that is, as I don't drink anyhow.) But in that case, shouldn't you have gone to a place without any alcohol in the first place?  You simply cannot expect the rest of the world to stop doing what they like because you can't do it.  Where do you draw the line?  "No one can walk, run or jog in front of me, because I'm in a wheelchair!  I'm upset watching them!" 

The staff isn't eating food to torture anyone - they eat because they are hungry and drink because they are thirsty. 

I bring dessert to my local Gilda's Club on a regular basis.  Two weeks ago, I brought two kinds - one of which was kahlua brownies.  I was planning on labeling them clearly, but I was told that wasn't an option, because one member of the cancer support group was a recovering alcoholic and had complained about one of the dinners that had been donated that was cooked with wine.  The dinners, like the desserts, are provided free every week by volunteers and by some fabulous local restaurants.  Because of that one person's complaint, any food that is donated with even the smallest alcohol flavor now has to be turned away.  This means the dozens of other members there don't get to taste some of the amazing recipes the chefs wanted to share with us.  (And believe me, those wine-braised beef tips and hand made pasta were divine.)  It feels selfish to me to insist that everyone else lose out to protect someone from their own choices.  I know alcoholism is a disease, but how much blame can you place on a seasoned food item that no longer has any alcohol content in it after cooking or baking, especially when you had a choice of not eating it or eating the other choice without any alcohol?  And this is a cancer support group, not an AA meeting.

I willing took the brownies back out to my car.  I don't run the place, and I'm not going to expend effort to fight the policy, even if I do think it is unfair.  I was planning to take the plateful to my clinic class the next day.  Starving law students do not fear the taste of alcohol, as I can attest from seeing my group out on Friday nights at the Karaoke bar.
Except I left the car unlocked.  More than half the plate was empty by the time I got done with my craft workshop.  Those members and volunteers who had seen me come in with them and heard the explanations for why they weren't being served had spent the afternoon sneaking out to my car to have them!

[MooseMom]

Well, when I think back to our wonderful IHD dinner in Vegas, it occurs to me that most of the attendees were NOT on dialysis.  Most were either spouses/partners/transplantees.  Only a few of us were actually pre-dialysis or on dialysis and, therefore, had the greatest restrictions.  Yet dietary accomodation was made for us, and it was very much appreciated.  I think I would have been disappointed had the meal not been made with us in mind, and I can't claim that I would have been generous enough to have thought, "Oh, it's just my personal responsibility to eat appropriately" if there had been nothing there that I could have eaten safely.

Should I have expected fellow IHDers to make accommodations for my problems with food?  I dunno.  You tell me.

Where do I draw the line?  I draw the line in front of people who know about my restrictions and who profess to love me.  I don't give a flying **** about anyone else.  So yes, I can definitely answer that particular question.  I have no expectations from "the rest of the world."

And to be honest, it wouldn't occur to me to ever serve anything made with alcohol to a group of people I did not know well.  What if one of the group was a devout Muslim?  What if one of the group was an Orthodox Jew and had to have only kosher food?  Do you make allowances for that?  It seems to me that if these chefs were really fabulous, they could create wonderful dishes that had no alcohol.  I don't see depriving myself of alcohol-laden brownies to be that big of a deal. 

In dialysis clinics, I'm sure staff aren't eating and drinking in front of patients in order to torture them, but they seem awfully blind.  Can't they exercise a bit of compassion and eat and drink away from the patients?  Or is it the patients' responsibility to suck it up and not be allowed to feel bad?  I sometimes feel that this demand for others to "exercise personal responsibility" is actually a tarted up abdication of a bit of human empathy.

Still, I'd bet that your brownies were wonderful!     I think the whole brownie fiasco was very poorly handled.  I see nothing wrong with including dietary information with each offering.  You could have made a little sign that this contained alcohol, and someone else might have made a notation that their offering included, say, nuts or something else that might have caused a problem.  I agree that the scenario you mentioned was a bit over the top!

[Riki]

In dialysis clinics, I'm sure staff aren't eating and drinking in front of patients in order to torture them, but they seem awfully blind.  Can't they exercise a bit of compassion and eat and drink away from the patients?  Or is it the patients' responsibility to suck it up and not be allowed to feel bad?  I sometimes feel that this demand for others to "exercise personal responsibility" is actually a tarted up abdication of a bit of human empathy.

I don't know about every unit, but in mine, the nurses are usually run off their feet, and the unit can sometimes be incredibly understaffed.  They do try to take their meals in their breakroom, but sometimes they are so understaffed that they can't.  They will occasionally eat at the desk.  They do keep glasses of water or coffee or tea at the desk, but they don't go around the patients with it.  They also have a bowl of candy on the desk that they go to a lot, but they do share those. *G*

[CebuShan]

Here is my humble take on all this. Correct of he I am wrong but I believe it was subeatwho (like me) watched a loved one kill themselves by ignoring the dr. Maybe that is why I have an easier time than others. I have forbidden alcohol at functions we have hosted when we knew of someone who was struggling with that. A few years ago, my husband had a bout with H. PylorI and had to be on a completely bland diet for several months. Even though it turned out to be temporary, jim struggled with it. To help him, I ate the same things. When I couldn't stand it, I would go out for lunch with friends and eat "normal" food. *Lol* But if I have to fast for a test, I make him stop & get a coffee on the way so I can at least smell it! Anyway, the nurses and techs have to eat and all the running that they do would make anyone thirsty. They are discreet though, at least at my clinic. I have dialysed on all 3 shifts and have eaten and drank. I usually bring a bottle of water with me that I sip from. When I first started D, I wondered why some patients were offered protein bars but I never was. That didn't seem fair but when they explained about labs, it made sense. I guess what I'm trying to say in my roundabout way is no one is responsible for your choices but you; however, I am not going to add to your temptation. I can always stop later and get whatever I want!

[MooseMom]

Remember that the original poster complained about nurses and techs eating and drinking in front of dialysis patients who couldn't eat or drink.  The OP wasn't complaining that the whole world was eating taboo foods without thinking about him/her.  My final word on the subject is this...we are responsible for our food choices, and we are responsible for the consequences.  At the same time, though, I don't think it is entirely absurd to expect professional people at dialysis clinics to be mindful of the welfare of their patients, and that means both their psychological welfare as well as their physical welfare.  If you are working at a clinic and must eat or drink, then please do so discretely so that your patients won't think you incompetent and rude.

CebuShan, you are a hero in my book for showing solidarity with your husband by eating the same bland diet that he had to.   I'm sure he wasn't expecting you to do that, but the fact that you did was incredibly kind and loving.  Before anybody gets on my case, I understand that CebuShan's sacrifice was temporary and that it's not the same as following the renal diet if you don't have to. 

PS:  I had a quarter of a small chocolate truffle today, and I didn't eat it in front of my husband.  He had a jippy tummy, and I didn't want to make him feel worse by eating chocolate in front of him (I don't remember the last time I had chocolate!  It was small to begin with, and I cut it into quarters.  How's that for being obsessive about this stupid diet? ).  My husband surely was female in a previous life because he loooooooves chocolate whereas I do not, really.

[Whamo]

At Loma Linda I've never seen a nurse or tech eat or drink.  It seems like they are always working with patients.  I did see a guy sitting around the other day, but he was at the end of a 12 hour shift, and people didn't show up for their chairs.  What did blow my mind is seeing patients eat and drink at their chairs.  One guy had fried chicken and potatoes.  Another had a frozen meal.  That crap is loaded with sodium and phosphates.  Another guy had a bottle of soda.  A 10-year veteran of dialysis told me those people get sick, and complain about the center, when actually, it is their own fault for not following the renal diet.  I find that avoiding sodium is the best way to handle thirst.  I do hate it  I try gum and mints, but that doesn't help very much.  I long for those college days when I drank beer like a fish.   

[CebuShan]

If I am in a situation where it is not prudent to drink what works for me is not regular candy and mints. I get the sour candy/gummies.

[Riki]

I always keep hard candy within reach.  I'm not officially fluid restricted, although I probably should be, but the candy has actually helped me to keep from going up more than 2kgs between treatments