Tottenham riots.

[jbeany]

Anyone else thinking the riots in London and surrounding areas ought to be sounding a cautionary note to those who want drastic cuts to social services here in the US?  Not that I'm supporting the rioters' actions in any way, but I do feel sympathy for those who are broke, trapped and frustrated.

[MooseMom]

I know some of those areas in London that have been hit by rioters, and while it would be tempting to blame it on austerity programs (which certainly don't help the situation), most of these people are looters who don't even know who Mark Duggan was and who don't especially care.  Their anger and sense of hopelessness was there last week and last year and the year before that. 

But I see your point.  I guess it remains to be seen.  With the Congressional leaders now having selected their "super duper committee" members, I don't anticipate any resolution by the self-imposed deadline, and we are going to be seeing the "nuclear option" around Thanksgiving time. 

What has to be remembered is that the USA ceased to be a democracy long ago.  When you have millions upon millions of dollars being spent by out of state interests/corporations to influence six little contests in Wisconsin...WISCONSIN!!!!!..., it makes you see that whoever has the money in this country has the power, and the Supreme Court with their Citizen's United decision made sure of that.  We are officially an oligarchy and have been for quite a while now.  Americans could riot in the streets, but it won't matter.

[Willis]

What has to be remembered is that the USA ceased to be a democracy long ago.

It never was a democracy! In fact, when it comes to voting for the President, for example, you (nor I) don't even have a "right" to vote for the President--and originally couldn't vote for our Senators either! The "Founders" wrote the Constitution the way they did to avoid democracy (what they called mob rule). They were proven correct only a few years later during the French Revolution. That sad period shows what can happen if true "democracy" takes hold; i.e., a tyranny of the majority.

 

[Willis]

... a cautionary note to those who want drastic cuts to social services here in the US? 

I think that is the propaganda from one side of the political spectrum and much of the press. Yet what "drastic cuts" has anyone actually proposed, much less came anywhere close to implementing?

In Washington DC, merely slowing the rate of growth is called a "cut"--while reducing the amount budgeted for is called a "drastic cut."

If you want to see an actual "drastic cut" consider that the value of the US dollar has fell 25% this decade and 95% during the past century. Considering that interest rates are near zero, just owning dollars will guarantee a negative return.

 

 

[jbeany]

 Yet what "drastic cuts" has anyone actually proposed, much less came anywhere close to implementing?
 

I did say "want".  They haven't implemented a lot - Washington hasn't managed to do anything but stonewall as far as I can see.  Although, I am in Michigan, and our gov is having a field day right now, which does skew my perspective a bit.  Not that we don't need to cut things, but since Snyder has little interest in running for re-election, he is feeling quite free to slice and dice things held precious by both sides!

[MooseMom]

It never was a democracy! In fact, when it comes to voting for the President, for example, you (nor I) don't even have a "right" to vote for the President--and originally couldn't vote for our Senators either! The "Founders" wrote the Constitution the way they did to avoid democracy (what they called mob rule). They were proven correct only a few years later during the French Revolution. That sad period shows what can happen if true "democracy" takes hold; i.e., a tyranny of the majority.

OK, I'll play.  Let's see how many presidential hopefuls between now and Nov 2010 will stand up on a stage and tell us that we are not a democracy and that the Founding Fathers never wanted us to be.  Do that, and they'll experience what "tyranny of the majority" means!

I don't think the Founding Fathers wanted the is be an oligarchy either, though, and that's what we've become.  THAT's the problem. 

[Willis]

OK, I'll play.  Let's see how many presidential hopefuls between now and Nov 2010 will stand up on a stage and tell us that we are not a democracy and that the Founding Fathers never wanted us to be.  Do that, and they'll experience what "tyranny of the majority" means!

Not positive, but I think I've heard Ron Paul say that or at least something similar. Not saying Ron Paul is the answer...just sayin'...and a lot of people think he's nuts. (I'm not one of them BTW.)

"A pure democracy can admit no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will be felt by a majority, and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party. Hence it is, that democracies have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths." - James Madison

"It has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity." - Alexander Hamilton

"Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." - John Adams

I don't think the Founding Fathers wanted the is be an oligarchy either, though, and that's what we've become.  THAT's the problem.

I can't disagree with that. We've moved a long way from the original plan (the Civil War had a lot to do with that so you'd think it would be a settled issue by now). 

 

[Ang]

rioters are criminal plain and simple

[MooseMom]

I admit it.  I like Ron Paul, too.  I don't always agree with him by any means, but he means what he says, and I like that.  That's a pretty rare quality in a politician these days.

[jbeany]

rioters are criminal plain and simple

I guess I've never quite understood the logic.  "Our housing project and neighborhood stink.  Let's burn half of it down and see if that makes it better."  From the articles I've been reading, most of the group in London and Birmingham have been using mass texting to determine the next target and avoid the police.  It's mostly young men with no jobs and no hope of improving their lives - but I still don't see how burning down the neighborhood will fix that.

[Ang]

just curious how the business owners caught in the middle of this,does insurance if they have it cover riots 

[kristina]

It seems that in society there have always been very poor people,
whose life seems to rumble along in an extremely unpleasant way.
Then occasionally there are outbursts.

My thought is, what is the reason for keeping those poor people in such misery without hope?

In our society there is money available to lift poor people to a more humane level,
but this misery is still  allowed to exist. Why?

I can’t help feeling that these particular riots were allowed to happen,
and even encouraged to happen, which would indicate some degree of planning.

But I can’t see the reason for this.
 
Is it to divert attention? Is it to change laws?

It is like looking at a magic trick, you know what you are seeing is not the truth,
but you can’t see the trickery...

[billybags]

I as a Brit are absolutely discussed about what has happened in my country. These people who did this are scum. They are bored, ignorant, lazy  good for nothings. They acted like packs of animals. I blame alot on the social networking . They have not got a clue who this Mark Duggan is , they could not careless. Our policing system is so soft on these people, they know that they will get away with it. In America looters would have been shot. There are lots of opportunities out there for young ones who take the trouble but they would sooner hang about. They don't even think about the people who work and pay taxes to keep them on the dole. They think it is their right to keep taking. They think they have a right not to work, it is probably against there human rights. It makes my blood boil.

[cariad]

In America looters would have been shot.

Thankfully, no, this is not the typical response. Water canons, tear gas, rubber bullets - those would be tried first. Our last major riot was probably similar - Rodney King and South Central LA, that was over a police beating.

I have not read nor watched much about the riots, and I see where your anger is coming from, billy, but living in a country where the rundown areas are predominantly black and the wealthy areas are overwhelmingly white, and we have police profiling (did you hear about the Harvard professor being arrested for breaking into his own home after he inadvertently locked himself out) and invasive searches at the airports, and lunatics on television telling gullible people that they cannot trust the government which would include the police, that the end is near, that we are going to be living in a post-apocalyptic nightmare at any moment, that teachers and working people are greedy for wanting benefits.... many of these issues also affect the UK, and so I guess I can see where some of the rioters are coming from. I don't believe that you need to know the person to understand the symbolism behind the action and feel enough is enough. (And I am speaking about Rodney King because I know slightly more about that situation.) Yes, much of it is just despicable behaviour from thugs, I completely agree with you there. However, riots do not happen in a vacuum.

In this country, in two years we have gone from "Those greedy AIG crooks" with the nation seemingly poised on the edge of some sort of class war, to "those greedy teachers! They expect healthcare and union rights! Well, I don't have those, therefore they should not get those." Friends of mine who have been teachers for years - one of them a special ed teacher - have now been called greedy leeches by members of their own family! There are consequences, at least in this country, for trying to scare people into submission and convince weaker-minded individuals that everyone is out to get them and that if one person receives something that they do not have, that makes that other person a parasite who must be brought down. (I thought everyone having exactly the same compensation would be considered socialism, but apparently it is only called socialism when the speaker does not like it.) Wall street barons have still by and large got off totally free, and somehow they have shifted the focus of contempt to the working class. The wealthy get free healthcare, they have the right to nearly buy our elections now (better than collective bargaining rights, I assure you!) and they have stolen homes and retirements from literally millions of Americans, yet we don't call them looters.

However, I did see some uplifting stories on the news - people coming together to clean up the cities in England, a man who turned in his own child because he felt he needed to face the consequences of being a looter. We had a very similar story here, in a working class suburb of Milwaukee. A group of kids got together to overwhelm a shop keeper by all walking in together and grabbing items and running off. The mother of one turned her daughter in the moment she saw the security camera footage. I think trying to find the opportunities for change, healing, growth, cooperation is what is going to see England through this, and I hope normalcy can be restored before more people are senselessly murdered or injured.

[billybags]

cariad, I would say AMEN to that.

[Poppylicious]

Anyone else thinking the riots in London and surrounding areas ought to be sounding a cautionary note to those who want drastic cuts to social services here in the US?  Not that I'm supporting the rioters' actions in any way, but I do feel sympathy for those who are broke, trapped and frustrated.

To be fair, nobody really knows why they decided to act the way they did.  There have been many reasons given and speculated about, but what it boils down to is that it was just a bunch of mindless idiots and another bunch of mindless copycats rioting/looting for no apparent reason.  It wasn't all poor people, or all youngsters, or all blokes.  It was just idiots, out to cause trouble.  In most instances they made sure not to do it on their own doorstep (so perhaps not as idiotic as could be ...) A few thugs jumped at the chance to take a small peaceful protest and turn it into a way to 'get one over' on the police, and were joined by more thugs with no imagination of their own. 

What was most worrying was how it got completely out of hand so quickly and how innocent people lost their businesses/homes or died because of it.  Ridiculous.

However, what was most lovely about it was the uprising of the peaceful folk, the Broom Army.  Gorgeous.  Made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. 

(disclaimer: as someone who resides in very rural england, all i know about the riots is what i've gleaned from the tellybox and the www and my hairdresser; i'm definitely not an expert  )

[billmoria]

ANG  I AM AMERICAN LIVING UK IN EAST LONDON - THOSE COVERED BY INSURANCE WILL BE PAID AND IF THE POLS ARE TO BE BELIEFED IF WILL BE QUICKER THAN NORMAL. THE PM YESTERDAY SAID THAT A FUND WAS AVAILABLE FOR THOSE UNINSURED.
ONE OF THE WORST SIGHTS WERE SMALL BUSINESS MEN/WOMEN OUTSIDE TRASHED AND LOOTED SHOPS.
ONE SHOULD NOT FORGET LAST YEARS SCANDALS IN PARLIAMENT WHERE THE TOP OF SOCIETY SHOWED THE SAME GREED AS THE LOOTERS EVEN IF MANY DID NOT TECHNICALLY BREAK ANY LAWS.
THE TELEGRAPH HAD A GREAT ARTICLE ON THIS:


http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

[MooseMom]

Billmoria, I missed it that you're American, although I did wonder about your baseball cap.  For how long have you lived in East London?  Whereabouts are you?  I know that part of town a little bit.

[kristina]

ANG  I AM AMERICAN LIVING UK IN EAST LONDON - THOSE COVERED BY INSURANCE WILL BE PAID AND IF THE POLS ARE TO BE BELIEFED IF WILL BE QUICKER THAN NORMAL. THE PM YESTERDAY SAID THAT A FUND WAS AVAILABLE FOR THOSE UNINSURED.
ONE OF THE WORST SIGHTS WERE SMALL BUSINESS MEN/WOMEN OUTSIDE TRASHED AND LOOTED SHOPS.
ONE SHOULD NOT FORGET LAST YEARS SCANDALS IN PARLIAMENT WHERE THE TOP OF SOCIETY SHOWED THE SAME GREED AS THE LOOTERS EVEN IF MANY DID NOT TECHNICALLY BREAK ANY LAWS.
THE TELEGRAPH HAD A GREAT ARTICLE ON THIS:


http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

Thank you billmoria,

for sharing with us the article by Peter Oborne,
chief political commentator for the Daily Telegraph, about the London riots.

My immediate thoughts after reading this article were twofold:

firstly, taking the article at face value,
it sounds like a wonderful patriotic and common-sense article
which seems to hit the nail on the head and gives people the impression
the voice of the people is being blasted out through Peter Oborne’s thoughts;

secondly, I am left wondering why he wrote such an article
which appears he is committing political suicide,
for his words are totally against the political establishment and the business-moguls,
the very people he receives invitations from,
people who he needs to nurture if he is going to keep his job
and succeed in his job as a chief political commentator of a very high-profile newspaper.

So, what do we make of these two conflicting views?

I feel he has been given the “green light” by the puppeteers to write this article.

The question is what purpose does an article like this serve ?

I am not taken in by it, but I dare say it stirs-up some emotion
in the people it is directed to.

What the end-game is, is anyone’s guess because behind every magic trick
there is a very complex structure both physical and psychological.

With regard to the riots in London I can only say,
the whole thing is a terrible, awful tragedy,
which should never ever happen,
but it reminds me of the film “The Sting” with Paul Newman.

I just have this nagging feeling that there was something set-up
and the rioters and the members of the public who suffered
were caught in the trap.

But, what the set-up was supposed to achieve,
only those who contrived it would know.

[kristina]

The aforementioned riots in England during 2011 were very interesting from a sociological point of view...

Many youngsters broke into shops and took everything they fancied... just like that...

At first there was no explanation, but later it was revealed that many of these youngsters thought
they "try exactly the same" as they have seen our politicians do : many politicians and other “mentionables”
 “walk away regularly” with computers, cars, apartments, “golden-hand-shakes”, luxury holidays, houses,
mansions, luxury pensions etc., by courtesy of the British tax-payer...

The young generation grew-up with these politicians as role-models 
and so they raided shops and took everything they fancied,
and walked away with it all because they thought "that's how it is done"...

Heaven help us when these youngsters grow up and have more experience...
 

[kristina]

...” We are heading towards war with Iran...They don’t want people protesting, they want it nice for the Olympics...”

Police swept dozens of tents from the London Parliament Square peace camp in a dramatic raid to clear the 10-year-old protest site
but a lone demonstrator vowed to fight on... Police acted under NEW POWERS last night to end the occupation.
   
Boris Johnson, London Major said: ” we’re going ahead with clearing up the square and I think that’s the right thing to do”.
But the “total Clearance” will be delayed until the outcome of a new High Court battle.

The case is being brought by Maria Gallastegui who won an injunction to remain with three tents
and her “Tardis-style peace box”. She said other protesters would try to get round the new law.

A police source said: “we have given an undertaking not to touch the property of the person who launched legal action in the High Court".
Ms. Gallastegui, 53, accused authorities of trying to clear legitimate and “life-saving” protest.

She told the “Evening Standard”: “ We are heading towards war with Iran...
...they don’t want people protesting about it... They want everything nice for the Olympics....”

[kristina]

...What makes occupation more powerful and attention-grabbing than any “old A to B marches

is that they represent a direct challenge to the power of the state...

But a court has ruled that London protesters camped outside St. Paul’s cathedral
since 16th October 1911 have to be evicted from the cathedral churchyard now.

The judge, Mr. Justice Lindblom said he ruled in favour of the “City of London Corporation”
because of the extent and duration of the tented protest at St. Paul’s, Cathedral,
the public nuisance it caused and the effect on worshippers and visitors.

The ruling was greeted with dismay by Dr. Giles Fraser, who resigned
as canon chancellor of St. Paul’s Cathedral rather
than see the protesters evicted by force,
and who was in a packed court to hear the judgment.

In a statement he said later: “This judgment is disappointing.
In a world where there is such a gap between rich and poor,
the voice of protest needs continually to be heard.
The church must not be seen to side with the 1% rather than the 99%.”
(Wednesday 18th January 2012).