Ethanol - fuel from plants ... discuss

[Bill Peckham]

I think a lot of the objection to corn based ethanol is its net efficiency as a fuel (the energy created minus the energy used to grow the crop) and the effect that increased demand has on the price of corn and of other corps as farm land is switched to corn. I'd note that a lot of the papers and critiques that are available are based on the high corn prices of 2008 in the three dollar range. Today corn is above $6 a bushel.


Things like switch grass and algae avoid the issue of crowding out food ... I think there is a lot of promising research and investment happening but there have also been a number of false starts. What is everyone else hearing.

[Chris]

Pretty much the disgust of corn prices rising due to the added use of corn. But what I heard is that a different type of corn is used that is not the edible kind we eat. It was either the History Channel or Discovery/ Learning channel that had a show about Ethanol and how it cost farmers more to grow and the cost of creating a refinery for the process. I wish I could remember where I saw it and the name. I use to buy E-85 due to the money I would get back at the end of the year, but two problems with that process. One is the paperwork, some of the reciepts fade and is hard to read and document, Two is the efficency of the fuel. While the cost per gallon is  roughly .30 cents lower, I do not get the gas mileage to justify buying the gas in my truck In that respect, we have to buy more fuel and possibly drive more to find a fuelling station that has it if we would just stick to buying E-85. However more maintenance is required with this fuel since it gums up parts of the delivery system to the engine (according to dealer service). I think diesel is more viable where used oils from fast food places and other means can be recycled into fuel compared to E-85 though.

[jbeany]

Try searching ethanol on National Geographic.com - lots of good links, like this one ---

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/10/biofuels/biofuels-text/1

[cariad]

Ethanol is our most promising alternative fuel going right now. Obviously it should come from the source that does the least overall damage to the planet and the economy. If corn is not that product, then we need to pursue others. I KNOW that I heard that ethanol is a tiny percentage of the overall corn usage, and like Chris I believe i heard that it is not a corn for consumption anyway, but if we can get past the details to the actual fuel and its benefits, whatever is used could become a huge crop. Anyone read the seminal article in the NYT about how corn is destroying the country? I get these articles sent to me from my mother who is rabidly anti-corn ever since reading it. I believe it was called "When A Crop Becomes King". Foreigners do not get our corn obsession, and all my sympathy to those Americans who are allergic to corn. It is so widely used that there are almost no products without it, and the allergens are a part of the air we breathe. These people who are allergic generally find they need to consider leaving the country - it coats vitamins and is now being used to make tea bags (which I love) and biodegradable cups. We thought our son was allergic to corn so I have had to research this. He is allergic to fresh corn, but can tolerate it in any processed incarnation.

Also, unlike any other fuel source, ethanol requires planting, and the crops themselves will serve to offset pollution as well.

Let's look at alternative fuels in their current forms to see what ethanol has going for it right now:
Compressed Natural Gas - very clean, inexpensive, but finite resource and the infrastructure is not there. Retrofitting is a major job and not worth it. Wide use of this for a petrol replacement would undoubtedly drive up the cost of heating our homes/food/water. Can get a gas line installed in your garage for in-home fill-ups, but that is also pricey.
Hydrogen Fuel Cell - Very clean, difficult to manufacture, cannot be retrofitted and no infrastructure to speak of. Plus, Kaboom!, if you follow me....
Electric - Very clean, added bonus of zero noise pollution, can be run off your home electricity with a special installation, but $$$$$ for the cars and those batteries. Limited range for the vehicles and takes a long time to recharge. No retrofitting, limited infrastructure but I don't think that is a big deal to add recharging stations in public places. Need to look at where your electric originates from (coal, nuclear)
Clean Diesel - not necessarily cleaner than petrol according to Gwyn, better fuel economy, tough sell for Americans because the cost per gallon is higher and the cars cost more for a start. No retrofitting. Infrastructure is easy. Can be converted to run on biodiesel, but that involves a commitment to beg used oil from restaurants (or else it is prohibitively expensive) and your car will smell like a chip shop all the time.
Ethanol - retrofitting is simple and uses no resources and requires little (if any) cash. Infrastructure is easy (They sell E85 at our local BP). If there were more demand for it, it would not be difficult to convert existing pumps to E85. Chris, damage to engines should not be an issue. Are you driving a fuel-injected truck? Creating the ethanol might be the problem, but I would rather do that and break even in terms of energy than keep doing what we are doing with regular petrol, destroying our irreplaceable oceans. I think the gain in being able to quickly and easily retrofit existing vehicles is the real key here. No one wants to spend thousands on a new car to realise savings in 10 years time, and while most of us have great intentions when it comes to the environment, if you cannot afford to buy a new car you will have to stick with your earth killing machine. Reduced fuel economy, but cheaper at the pump. Gwyn reckons it is about 15% less efficient, meaning if it is 15% less expensive, you are not out anything.
Propane: Similar issues to natural gas.

There are other exciting things going on in the world of alternative fuels for vehicles, but right now, this is what we are looking at. I hope I did not forget any....

I did hear an interesting calculus once: one cow equals one car in terms of environmental impact. Look at all the existing "cows" we have on the roads. I'll pay a bit more for fuel to save the environment, but I cannot go out and buy a new car, the financial issues are far too immediate to be ignored. I may have Gwyn look into converting our primary vehicles to ethanol.

[Bill Peckham]

It's the corn used for feed - which is the vast majority of corn grown. As the cost of feed has gone up the cost of hogs and cattle have increased. The effects extend beyond direct corn costs because as you say cariad - corn is in everything. But that's not all.


The thing is Farmers are very sensitive to price signals. Right now corn is three times its historic price. I mean pretty soon they'll be tearing up parking lots to plant corn. But what's easier than tearing up a parking lot is converting other crops to corn. So as corn prices go up the supply of soybeans goes down, for instance. This crop substitution is hard to pin down, it is hard to say what would have been but it has had an effect - how big is in dispute.


I think at this stage we should be very careful about distorting the market and with corn price at the level they are now is great time to remove corn subsidies and invest in the science that is really pretty promising.

[MooseMom]

I live in the Western Suburbs of Chicago, and out here, there are only two things...new McMansions and new fields of corn.  That's it.

Again, I worry about the role of irrigation.  I believe that fresh water is going to be at the center of the next major conflicts in the world. 

[Willis]

The thing is Farmers are very sensitive to price signals. Right now corn is three times its historic price. I mean pretty soon they'll be tearing up parking lots to plant corn. But what's easier than tearing up a parking lot is converting other crops to corn. So as corn prices go up the supply of soybeans goes down, for instance. This crop substitution is hard to pin down, it is hard to say what would have been but it has had an effect - how big is in dispute.


I think at this stage we should be very careful about distorting the market and with corn price at the level they are now is great time to remove corn subsidies and invest in the science that is really pretty promising.

I agree! 

Also, when corn supply exceeded demand (prior to it being converted to ethanol) the excess was available for sale to other countries. Now the demand is so high for feed corn, all of those parking lots and Fields of Dreams are going to be planted with feed corn. And so if regular corn production (used for food) drops, the price will INCREASE--and if the ethanol demand remains high enough then costs for both products will continue to grow higher. At least until the ethanol bubble bursts and the price of feed corn crashes, wiping out another wave of small farmers (but not the agricorps like ADM.

Now consider that most of that corn, if turned into ethanol, will remain in the U.S. and also raise the price of feed stock and cutting gross margins for cattle ranchers who are on pretty thin ice right now anyway due to sky-rocketing fuel costs. So it's a vicious cycle!

Now the unintended consequence of this will be to force much higher prices in countries that traditionally buy our corn (like Brazil). This will inevitably lead to Brazil (for example) plowing under places like the Brazilian rain forest to grow their own corn. From an environmentalist's perspective that should seem much worse than any benefit ethanol as a fuel additive can offer. And then sometime down the road when corn is again in such surplus here that the price crashes, Brazil won't be buying. And another wave of foreclosures will sweep the farm belt.

Finally, I just want to say that too me, the very idea of disrupting the food chain for some debatable environmental benefit always was and is a totally cuckoo idea that is likely to have disastrous consequences some day.

 

[Chris]

I forgot which country in South America is now all E-85 gas that was in the program I watched., but I'm sure there is diesel also.
 
Cariad, yes my truck is fuel injected, but since I haven't retained much of my teachings fro my Ford Technician training 20 years ago and haven't kept up on my mechanical interest, I ponder to think it is a problem caused by mixing the two fuels. I'm just glad the problem was fixed under warranty at the time.

[cariad]

Cariad, yes my truck is fuel injected, but since I haven't retained much of my teachings fro my Ford Technician training 20 years ago and haven't kept up on my mechanical interest, I ponder to think it is a problem caused by mixing the two fuels. I'm just glad the problem was fixed under warranty at the time.

The problem is not with the two fuels, the trouble is that with a fuel injected engine, you need to commit to one fuel or the other. If you wanted to use solely E85, you must get your car's computer reprogrammed, which requires dealer service, if the manufacturer will even do it. If you had a system that uses carburetors, you could do it yourself in minutes and change back and forth whenever you like.

Gwyn does not work in alternative fuels currently, but in a way, all mechanical engineering must be conversant in them. I find it interesting, the misconceptions surrounding these fuels, which was part of what he wrote to the Cal government about. They were claiming it was a safety issue. On here, I can see that people are now being mislead into thinking it causes engine damage. False. I have to think that such widespread misinformation has a political force behind it. It does seem that as to the topic of corn, we can all agree that there are better sources for E85. If there were widespread conversion to alternative fuel, we would not have to depend upon foreign oil. Ethanol seems our best bet, at least when it comes to automotive.